/ NEWS: Trouble Brewing on Kalymnos

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UKC News - on 25 Sep 2010
Protest  for the doubling of boat  fare to Telendos cragsto #1, 2 kbTrouble is brewing in Kalymnos, reports local Aris Theodoropoulos with local businessmen cashing in on visitors with a big fare increase on one of the main local ferries.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=58002
Wiley Coyote - on 25 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:
Stuff 'em. We climbed at Irox twice last year. It's a lovely walk in with great views back across to Kalymnos and very easy going. It takes about half an hour and I found it warmed up the muscles and really put me in the mood for the day plus you can have a swim on the way back.
Who needs the boatmen if they want to be unreasonable!
woolsack - on 25 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News: 10 euros isn't exactly a vast fortune to get dropped off right at the crag is it?
banned profile 74 on 25 Sep 2010 - 87.112.152.97 whois?
In reply to woolsack: probably not for a day trip but if your there for 2 weeks and working a project its going to add up plus its the principle of the matter when prices double overnight
Wiley Coyote - on 25 Sep 2010
In reply to woolsack:
> (In reply to UKC News) 10 euros isn't exactly a vast fortune to get dropped off right at the crag is it?

The article is a bit ambiguous in that it says the cost used to be 5 euros and is now 10 'both ways' but says the trip is 'four times as expensive' as last year. That suggests he means the fare is 10 euros EACH way making it a 20 euro round trip which does seem a bit steep, especially if you are planning multiple visits.
Jamie B - on 25 Sep 2010
In reply to beastofackworth:

Isnt it just a teeny bit imperialist to get upset about people in foreign countries making economic decisions based on their own reasoning, their own assets, and their own economic priorities?

There are lots of other places to climb on Kalymnos; if this proves to be too big a hike the providers will suffer, but I'm sure they've thought it through.
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
> The article is a bit ambiguous in that it says the cost used to be 5 euros and is now 10 'both ways' but says the trip is 'four times as expensive' as last year. That suggests he means the fare is 10 euros EACH way making it a 20 euro round trip which does seem a bit steep, especially if you are planning multiple visits.

It wasn't very clear in Aris' initial report. I have now updated the news piece to say twice as expensive since I think that is the case.

Alan
Robin Warden - on 25 Sep 2010
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


I have never climbed at Kalymnos, but what i have heard from thoes who have, it's an amazing place with welcoming people, let's not spoil this by being so "English", the chap with the boat is on to a good thing! I wonder how many locals living close to the crags, have had their fantastic tranquil landscape changed, by the sound of drilling and the squeeling's of the white middle classes from blighty?
banned profile 74 on 25 Sep 2010 - 87.112.152.97 whois?
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
> (In reply to beastofackworth)
>
> Isnt it just a teeny bit imperialist to get upset about people in foreign countries making economic decisions based on their own reasoning, their own assets, and their own economic priorities?
>
>

not being the slightest bit imperialistic,i was stating that the price may not seem so mucyh to someone going across from the day but for a regular user it will be a major cost increase.i dont car what country/area we are talking about-a 100% price increase is simply a rip off.kakymnos isnt somewhere ive been to or ever will so it doesnt matter either way to me but its still seems a rip off doubling the price when running costs wont have doubled
Robin Warden - on 25 Sep 2010
In reply to beastofackworth:

that guy must be raking it in, the funny thing is that climbers are paying him whatever price he wants.
Robin Warden - on 25 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:

I have never climbed at Kalymnos, but what i have heard from thoes who have, it's an amazing place with welcoming people, let's not spoil this by being so "English", the chap with the boat is on to a good thing! I wonder how many locals living close to the crags, have had their fantastic tranquil landscape changed, by the sound of drilling and the squeeling's of the white middle classes from blighty?
Wiley Coyote - on 25 Sep 2010
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
> (In reply to beastofackworth)
>
> Isnt it just a teeny bit imperialist to get upset about people in foreign countries making economic decisions based on their own reasoning, their own assets, and their own economic priorities?
>
> What utter tosh! If the foreigners doubling their prices were Starbucks they would be lambasted as grasping capitalist swine and no one would be spouting irrelavant claptrap about imperialism. Just because it is Greek boatmen rather than US corporate giants it does not stop a doubling of prices being an opportunistic rip off. It's a very pleasant walk to Irox, Pescatore and Glaros and if enough people boycott the boats the prices will come back down.
Kalymnos is a very welcoming place and a lot of locals make a good living from the extended season climbing has created. And good luck to them. It's a system that served both groups, visitors and locals, well so it's a shame to see a handful of local businessmen profiteering from the arrangement. If they were making a good living at 5euros a trip a 100pc increase seems unreasonable.
alkira - on 25 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:
I think if you looked into how much his running costs have risen in recent years it would seem reasonable to increase the fare. Deisel, antifoul paint , engine spares,insurance and slipping costs have all risen significantly in the past 3 years
If you don't like paying him ,get your own boat and get there yourself and wake up to the expenses of running a boat !! :)
banned profile 74 on 25 Sep 2010 - 87.112.152.97 whois?
In reply to alkira: so you have looked into his running costs then have you?diesel hasnt risen 100% in the last 3 years,neither will the price of engine spares or anti foul paint.the boatmen have realised they offer a service where they have no competition and can get away with charging what they like to wealthy tourists
Robin Warden - on 25 Sep 2010

chris
if you are self employed, then often you taylor your rate to the client, the boatman has had a little think, he thinks how much shall thoes pesky climbers pay? he scratches his head and decieds to aim high, a 100% increase means he can aford to loose 50% of his trade, and still retain hi original profit, also this leaves him with more time to be happy, as he proberbly is not enjoying the constant flow of climbers, heading to their ideal!
Jamie B - on 25 Sep 2010
In reply to Wiley Coyote:

> If they were making a good living at 5euros a trip a 100pc increase seems unreasonable.

Yes, how dare they want to maximise their profits and increase their disposable income? They might even get rich enough to go on foreign holidays.
Wiley Coyote - on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
> (In reply to Wiley Coyote)
>
> [...]
>
> Yes, how dare they want to maximise their profits and increase their disposable income?

Would you say the same if the airlines suddenly doubled the cost of tickets to Kalymnos to 'maximise their profits'? Or airports doubled their charges? Stop patronisng these boatmen who, from your daft comments about imperialism, you appear to be suggesting are some sort of exploited peasantry, and treat them for what they are, businessmen who are pushing their prices to see what the market will stand. In that regard they are no different from any other capitalist. I never suggested the boatmen could not double their prices, just that I believe that a boycott would bring prices back down. That's what you do when someone exploits a monopoly. Or you could just do what we did last year and walk. As I've said, it's a smashing route and gets you there before the crowds.
flipper - on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News: Let's face it: although the best things the life may be free, a trip to a small island in the distant part of the Med costs the average climber hundreds of Pounds (or Euros, Dollars, whatever) in flights, hotels, taxis, food etc. etc. Is coughing up a bit more for a boat trip once or twice really that big a deal?
Dax H - on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News: the boat men are businessmen and in business you charge as much as the market will stand. I would love to double my rates and loose 50% of my work load but my market won't stand it and I would lose 100% of my work.
I say good luck to them and I hope there strategy works out.
johncoxmysteriously - on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to beastofackworth:

>its the principle of the matter when prices double overnight

And which principle is that?!

jcm
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paul__in_sheffield - on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News: I was stranded in Toulouse at the end of last week due to the big strike in France. When I tried to get a hire car to drive back, all the rental co.s had quadrupled their prices. Even so all the cars were out.
The people who run the inter island ferries in Greece are businesses. Do you expect them to run like a charity?
Alun - on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:
Poor white middle class exploited tourists, how they must really suffer to pay an extra fiver a day.

Drink two or three fewer beers in the evening and you will have made your money back.

I accept the fact that he's been a bit cheeky in doubling his prices overnight, but he's a private businessman, not a public service. He can set whatever price he likes.
sutty on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to Alun:

>He can set whatever price he likes.

Course he can, but may find he has no customers.
ChrisJD on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:

Market forces will soon sort this out.

The fisherman can charge what they like - let the punters vote with their feet. Its the way of the world.
timjones - on 26 Sep 2010
The article states that the 5 euro rate was for groups of 10 or more. Is that a minimum number required for a booking or a discount for large paraties. If it's a discount that has been removed it seems harsh to complain. Either way it's just business the boatman names his price and you take it or leave it. Thats just the way the real world functions things aren't always as cheap as we'd like.
timjones - on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to beastofackworth)
>
> >its the principle of the matter when prices double overnight
>
> And which principle is that?!

It's the selfish barsteward principle. Folk want to maximise their own income whilst expecting the rest of the world to cut their margins for the wider good.
johncoxmysteriously - on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to timjones:

Eh? Greek fishermen expect you to cut your margins for their good?

jcm
timjones - on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to timjones)
>
> Eh? Greek fishermen expect you to cut your margins for their good?

I was thinking of it the other way round. Climbing tourists expect greek boatmen to restrict their margins to satisfy the penny pinching greed of affluent tourists.

In raelity it's a free market and it's all about market forces, principles have little to do with it.

Wiley Coyote - on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:
In a possibly unique move on UKC I wish to say I was wrong, so very very wrong, to criticise the gallant boatmen. Having reconsidered, I welcome their action and in fact urge them to redouble their prices.
Irox is such a lovely spot but it gets far too busy. If the boatmen can reduce the numbers going there to those willing to walk by pricing lazy so and sos off the crag then good for them, I say.
Boatmen of Kalymnos, keep up the good work. A grateful world salutes you!
carl dawson - on 26 Sep 2010

Boatmen charge higher prices therefore less climbers go to Telendos.
Less climbers therefore less visits to the small cafes, restaurants and other small businesses on Telendos.
So boatmen opportunism is good for this little island?

Carl
sutty on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to Wiley Coyote:

Well said, perhaps the Lake district car parks should have their charges doubled, and the Snowdonia ones, and the park and ride prices doubled as well.

How about doubling the price of the Kalymnos guide book to show solidarity with the boatmen?

Accommodation is probably too cheap there, maybe hike that by 50% also, make it more like the Rich Sardinian place where scruffs are not wanted.
alkira - on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:
we're all pissing into the wind with our theories as to whether this boatman is making obscene profit or not without seeing his annual accounts cos none of us have a clue.....at the end of the day it's a case of 'value not price'
If you think its worth it you will pay the money and enjoy the trip......and the boatman probably has a feel for his market
Anyone who has bought food in Marks and Spencers will know what the price/value thing means ( i'm more into lidl myself)
220bpm on 26 Sep 2010
In reply to sutty:
> (In reply to Alun)
>
> >He can set whatever price he likes.
>
> Course he can, but may find he has no customers.

Indeed, plans have now changed for our winter get-away.
banned profile 74 on 26 Sep 2010 - 87.112.152.97 whois?
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to beastofackworth)
>
> >its the principle of the matter when prices double overnight
>
> And which principle is that?!
>
> jcm

the priciple that nobody likes to be ripped off,especially by a foreigner who relies on toursistS to live!!
Im betting the price coems back down soon enough

In reply to beastofackworth:
> especially by a foreigner who relies on toursistS to live!!

The boatman is a foreigner?! Well that explains it then...

3leggeddog on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:

This is all small beer if you compare it with the stratospheric rise in price the boat to Pabbay and Mingulay has seen
Max factor - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog: As someone else has already said, it's a very pleasant 30min stroll from Telendos village. At the end of the day it isn't extortion, it's a tax on the lazy as you can just walk if you want to.
Tomar - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News: Can't blame the guys, you'd all jump on the band wagon given the same circumstances. Compare that with 4 per hour parking at Cheddar.
lummox - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to beastofackworth)
> [...]
>
> The boatman is a foreigner?! Well that explains it then...

LOL !

gethin_allen on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:
Surely there should be some entrepreneurial individual in the climbing community ready to take the risk with their cash and jump into the market charging ~6 euros.
ads.ukclimbing.com
banned profile 74 on 27 Sep 2010 - 87.112.152.97 whois?
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to beastofackworth)
> [...]
>
> The boatman is a foreigner?! Well that explains it then...


talk about selective quaotation
lummox - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to beastofackworth: stop digging.
Chris the Tall - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:
It's worth remembering that he's only charging the same as a day's moped hire.

Yes it's a steep increase, but the guy is also one of the operators of the Myrties - Telendos and that is very cheap - something like 2 euros a trip.

I've used his service twice - once to get to Irox, once to do Wings of Life. Can't say that the cost of the ferry was much of a factor, and certainly not something I remember about those memorable days.
banned profile 74 on 27 Sep 2010 - 87.112.152.97 whois?
In reply to lummox:
> (In reply to beastofackworth) stop digging.



digging?im giving my oppinion-isnt that the idea of an internet forum?
lummox - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to beastofackworth:
> (In reply to lummox)
> [...]
>
>
>
> digging?im giving my oppinion-isnt that the idea of an internet forum?

Okay... you made what was a pretty blatantly offensive remark, which Toby A pulled you up for in a humourous way and I suggested that you might like to stop digging a bigger hole. Would you like a JCB ?

Morgan Woods - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:

This article would be more accurately called, Trouble Brewing on a Small Part of Kalymnos. Worth raising the issue but from what i can see prices are still pretty reasonable for food, lodging and scooter hire.
gethin_allen on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to lummox:
I didn't think what was said was offensive if taken in context. What I got from it was that many people feel even harder done by if they are taken advantage of while on holiday because people often presume (sometimes wrongly) that the locals take advantage of tourists because they know that they have little alternative or recourse.
In reply to gethin_allen: I actually just wondered if Mr Beasty knew the boatman concerned was, say, German; or whether alternatively he was bizarrely calling a Greek in Greece "foreign".
Chris the Tall - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to Morgan Woods:
Slightly confused by Aris's report on his website

http://climbkalymnos.com/?p=3979

The 10 euros includes the 4 euros return fare to Telendos, although this is described as an enforced stop, and then a further 6 euros for the return trip to Irox.

Both times I've done it, I've got the boat from Telendos harbour anyway. Maybe it is (or used to be) differant if you had a big group, but there were only ever a handful of us. And I wouldn't dream of climbing on Telendos without stopping for a meal and a few beers on the way back - it's all part of the experience.

Shine on you crazy diamond !
Carless - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall:
>
> And I wouldn't dream of climbing on Telendos without stopping for a meal > and a few beers on the way back - it's all part of the experience.
>
> Shine on you crazy diamond !

Absolutely agree
banned profile 74 on 27 Sep 2010 - 87.112.152.97 whois?
In reply to lummox:
> (In reply to beastofackworth)
> [...]
>
> Okay... you made what was a pretty blatantly offensive remark, which Toby A pulled you up for in a humourous way and I suggested that you might like to stop digging a bigger hole. Would you like a JCB ?

dont need one.if you were going to the usa and disneyworld put their prices up to tourists and not to americans im sure you would have exactly the same sort of thing to say!!so get off your moral high horse,it doesnt suit you
banned profile 74 on 27 Sep 2010 - 87.112.152.97 whois?
In reply to gethin_allen:
> (In reply to lummox)
> I didn't think what was said was offensive if taken in context. What I got from it was that many people feel even harder done by if they are taken advantage of while on holiday because people often presume (sometimes wrongly) that the locals take advantage of tourists because they know that they have little alternative or recourse.


exactly.tourists will always be taken advantage of but its works vice versa too.
one person on here has already said they have now changed their mind about going so as i said previously im sure the price will fall again when the boatmen realise people wont take the increase
Richard Sutton - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News: OK I took the boat round to the Irox sector today. It's 3 euros per person each way. The main difference apears to be that he now leaves form Telendos insted of Myrties so you also have to pay the 2 euros to get to Telendos. I presume that the main ferrymen have kicked up a fuss as when he dropped us off at the pier on Telendos he went straight back to Myrties but would not take any passengers

Personally I think that 3 euros is a bargain not to have to listen to Mrs S whinge for an hour about walking in the sun.

As for him being an evil Greek scalper he's a really friendly bloke who has transported a total of 5 passengers today. That's 30 euros in takings, hardly coining it in. I wouldn't be prepared to operate a business for that level of profit.
alicia - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to UKC News:

Just as a quick aside, would it be possible to have more specific/less sensational headlines for articles like this? I clicked on it and read it because the headline made it sound like there could be some serious access issue coming up, and I wanted to make sure I didn't need to rush out and buy some airline tickets to get to Kalymnos ASAP before it all went wrong! When it turned out to be a minor incident involving a ferry that you don't even need to take to climb there, I wanted the previous few minutes of my life back...
johncoxmysteriously - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to alicia:

Have you sent a similar request to the Sun, Alicia?

jcm
alicia - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

The Sun's not a problem if you don't have any delusions of them potentially producing useful information, which I would assume you don't...?!
johncoxmysteriously - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to alicia:

I think our expectations of the public service announcements on this website may differ.

jcm
Wiley Coyote - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to Richard Sutton:
> (In reply to UKC News) OK I took the boat round to the Irox sector today.

Show off! There's no need to rub it in, especially as it's just startred raining here. And it's cold.
Richard Sutton - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to Wiley Coyote: Don't feel too jealous. It's too hot at the moment, I've never got through so much chalk in one day. It's also a lot queieter than last year, very few brits around, maybe the ferry prices are just too steep.
Frogger - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to alicia:
> Just as a quick aside, would it be possible to have more specific/less sensational headlines for articles like this?

I agree, the headline is way too sensational and not at all representative of the importance of the issue.

A more appropriate headline might be "Boat fare hike upsets climbers"

But then, of course, fewer people will read the article...
ads.ukclimbing.com
Chris the Tall - on 27 Sep 2010
In reply to Richard Sutton:
> It's also a lot queieter than last year, very few brits around, maybe the ferry prices are just too steep.

Based on the sample of people I spoke to at the weekend, about a third of Britain's climbers are heading there over the next two weeks !

Back on topic, any idea if Jannis now charge's a standard rate per person, or there a minimum number before he'll take his boat. I'm pretty sure we paid more than 6 euros a head for a boat for a return trip from telendos to irox a couple of years ago, but there was only 4 of us.
Richard Sutton - on 28 Sep 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall: It's a standard 3 euros per person each way, there were only the two of us on the boat on the way out.
andyb211 - on 28 Sep 2010
In reply to Richard Sutton: Hi Rich, coming out on thursday are there still copies of the 08 guide for sale??
Let's just buy the island and get rid of the locals...

These things happen everywhere. I have never been to Kalymnos, but it seems like walking is a more than valid option. So where is the problem? Tsk, tsk...
Richard Sutton - on 28 Sep 2010
In reply to andyb211: Not seen them anywhere and some Italians I was talking to were struggling to find one. Someone's probably got some but you might have to hunt around.
andyb211 - on 28 Sep 2010
In reply to Richard Sutton: Cheers for the reply might see you Thurs night for a beer if your still on the island
Chris the Tall - on 07 Oct 2010
In reply to UKC News:
Here's how it works from now until 10th November (according to the adverts)

Boat leaves for Telendos harbour for Irox at 9:10, 10:10 and 11:10
Returns at 17:00, 18:00 and 19:00

3 euros one-way, 6 return. Obviously best to let the ferryman know what time you are likely to want to return, so as to save him a wasted journey

I think that someone else may be providing a direct service form Myrties, but only if you can get a boatload.

Have to say I like the new system - much better if you have a small group. It cost us much more last time as we had to split the cost between 4 of us. And it's a regular service, so you can decide on the morning if that's where you want to go.

Futhermore, I would strongly advise anyone going to Irox to make sure you spend some time (and money) on Telendos. Great hospitality. I actually quite object to the notion of going direct to and from Myrties !

Oh, and Magma at Irox is well worth the cost of the trip. And On the Rocks is great - much fun on the pedalo !

Maybe UKC should consider re-wording the original article with more information and a little less hyperbole....
Simon Caldwell - on 07 Oct 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> Here's how it works from now until 10th November

Any idea what happens after 10th November?
Carless - on 07 Oct 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Is Magma the 6b with the razor move off the top of the tufa?
Excellent fun

The 6c & 7a to the left are great as well
catt on 07 Oct 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Sensible words.

Storm in a teacup!
Chris the Tall - on 09 Oct 2010
In reply to Carless:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> Is Magma the 6b with the razor move off the top of the tufa?
> Excellent fun
>

6b+ tufa pipe, once you get to any holds that even vaguely sharp it gets a lot easier. And the stuff I was doing yesterday at Grey Zone was far sharper - gave up on a 6b+ cos I just couldn't take the pain !

> The 6c & 7a to the left are great as well

Helvetia-X ? Looks great, but probably beyond me
Enty - on 09 Oct 2010
In reply to UKC News:

This thread is hilarious - I'm going to nip down to the old port in Marseille tomorrow and see if a local fisherman will take me round to the Calanques for 5.....

E
Morgan Woods - on 10 Oct 2010
In reply to Enty:

I'm also sure his Kalymnian counterpart would share the same attitude to Athenians as he would to Parisians!
colin struthers - on 10 Oct 2010
In reply to Enty:

Spot on!

I've been to Telendos twice and it was a highlight of the trip. On the last occasion we stayed on to eat at the Taverna along the far end of the quayside (run by the one eyed and slightly bonkers Zorba) - Recommended.

As it was getting late one of us went back to ask the ferryman when he was leaving. Whenever it suits you he replied! So we stopped for another hour.

We sailed back at about 11 pm under a starlit sky, full of beer and wine to the strains of Pink Floyd. Pure magic! We were enjoying it so much the ferryman took us around in an extra loop so we could hear the end of the track he was playing.

Yeah, what a rotter he was.

Why are some climbers such tight fisted sad-sacks?

Chris the Tall - on 12 Oct 2010
In reply to colin struthers:
>
> We sailed back at about 11 pm under a starlit sky, full of beer and wine to the strains of Pink Floyd. Pure magic! We were enjoying it so much the ferryman took us around in an extra loop so we could hear the end of the track he was playing.
>

Precicely what we did last night - so still you could barely tell you were moving! The only problem is that his copy of Dark Side of the Moon is getting decidedly dodgy !
mux - on 12 Oct 2010
In reply to UKC News: I agree with ENTY..

You can walk to the crags ???

its quite plesant .... and you pass a nuddie beach ....though amusing this is not for the faint hearted. Old wrinkly tadgers are not great for your climbing mojo. Tuffas begin to change shape !!!

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