UKC

Climbers are not Athletes

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 Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
Is anyone else irritated by the vogue for using the word "athlete" to describe climbers (as well as skiers, mountain bikers etc)? Everyone knows that athletes are people who run round in circles, jump and throw javelins and so on. There are good athletes and rubbish athletes, just as there are good climbers and rubbish climbers. Dave Macleod is not a great athlete; he is a great rock-climber. Ueli Steck is not a great athlete; he is a great alpinist. Yes, they are athletic climbers but they are not athletes, just as a mathematical economist is not a mathematician. Do we have some sort of inferiority complex which makes us think we can give climbing a spurious respectability it needs by the use of this word? I can see how sports such as motor racing or golf or snooker might laughably fall for this, but surely climbing is big enough and physically demanding enough to be above this sort of nonsense. It all seems to have started with American companies branding the climbers they sponsor with titles such as "Black Diamond Athlete". Personally, I feel the urge to boycott such companies! Lets resist this silliness and be proud to be plain climbers.
 moo 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:


ath·lete
–noun
a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill
 Choss Weasel 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: I've recently noticed this too. During the live televised climb on Sron Ulluldale with Dave MacLeod and Tim Emmet, the commentators kept saying things like "It goes without saying that these guys are tremendous athletes". It struck me as a word I had never heard used to describe climbing before. Is it suitable? I wasn't too sure if it was. After all, climbing is not athletics is it? Running, triathlons etc certainly are but I don't see how rock climbing fits in with those type of sports.
 Jack Whiteley 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: I remember Bodie Miller(skier) complaining about the same thing, he said something along the line of "I'm not an athlete, I'm a ski racer, I need a little extra padding to keep me warm on the lifts"
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to moo:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
>
> ath·lete
> –noun
> a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill

Technically I am sure this is true, but the use of the word simply isn't necessary or add anything when used as a substitute for "climber". Though by all means describe a climber as athletic.

 henwardian 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> Do we have some sort of inferiority complex which makes us think we can give climbing a spurious respectability it needs by the use of this word?

Or is it that we have an egotistical complex that requires us to demand that people respect our sport as different from all the other zillions of sports?


(yeah, ok, trolling aside, every time I hear a climber called an athlete I cringe inside, I think it's because secretly I would much prefer to be thought of as a useless bum than a professional athlete.)
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Choss Weasel:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) I've recently noticed this too. During the live televised climb on Sron Ulluldale with Dave MacLeod and Tim Emmet, the commentators kept saying things like "It goes without saying that these guys are tremendous athletes".

Yes, this particularly annoyed me; they seemed, lazily, to think it was necessary in order to convince the general public that the climb was hard and the climbers were good.
 moo 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: yeah thats true but your not wrong if you describe them as an athlete under the definition of the word.
 Choss Weasel 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to moo)
> [...]
>
> Technically I am sure this is true, but the use of the word simply isn't necessary or add anything when used as a substitute for "climber". Though by all means describe a climber as athletic.


I would agree. A climber can be athletic, fit, agile, skilled etc but I wouldn't describe a climber as an athlete because that's the same as describing climbing as athletics in my view. To me athletics is all the track stuff, races, javelin, shot-put etc, definately not climbing, ski-ing or mountaineering.
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to moo:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) yeah thats true but your not wrong if you describe them as an athlete under the definition of the word.

Not wrong, just pretentious and very annoying......

 Choss Weasel 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: Yes pretentious definately. I did cringe when I heard it used on the live climb!
 Damo 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes, I agree completely. Technically it might be true, but as everyone has said above, it's an ugly fit, incompatible with the heritage and nature of climbing, and usually used for pretty shallow purposes by the ignorant and venal.
ice.solo 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

i agree theres a wanky over-used element when its pushed BY THE MEDIA.

but i think 'athlete' applies more to the individuals intention, rather than their participating in 'athletics' (triathalons and ultras are not 'athletics afterall).
if a climber approaches climbing with an athletic attitude, ie training and refining their skills with the focus on pushing the boundaries of whats possible to themselves or the pursuit regarding speed, strength, endurance whatever.

i think its up to the climber. will gadd and mark twight in his era were quite firm they are/were athletes. gadd has written a lot about it.
steck refers to himself as a sportsmen.

seems to me that if the climbing is 'athletic', ie its not about grunt but about applying focussed and developed technique/skill it can be called athletic if the climber feels that way about it.

but yeah, when used as a cheesy marketing tool by some company its just silly.

 TobyA 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:



> Yes, this particularly annoyed me;

I think you should take up yoga Robert. All this getting annoyed can't be good for your blood pressure.

Have you considered that firms like BD and Marmot use the term simply because they sponsor people who aren't only climbers?

Anyway have you looked at Patagonia - they don't have athletes, they have "Ambassadors"!!!! This is an OUTRAGE!!!! These climbers and skiers are masquerading as ambassadors yet are clearly not covered by the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. When last in Colorado, after a night of drinking, vandalism and bar fights, I was running away from the police when I saw Steve House's pad. I leapt over the hedge and landing in his back garden shouted "Ha! Suckers! I claim asylum in the residence of the Ambassador of Patagonia! Whadaya gonna do about it now, losers!? You can't get me because I'm protected by international law!" They stepped into the garden, tasered me and dragged me off to jail. I'm now writing stiff letters to my MP and the Daily Mail pointing out that Marko Prezelj isn't really the Slovenian ambassador despite the claims of the Patagonia website! This is an OUTRAGE. If I could write in a green font I would!
 JimR 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

hmmm.. I seem to remember the term first being used about 30 odd years ago.
http://ronfawcett.com/
 Michael Ryan 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

I agree.

Climbers are not athletes....they are

Rock Gymnasts.
 cathsullivan 30 Sep 2010
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
>
>
> [...]
lmao
 petestack 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> Is anyone else irritated by the vogue for using the word "athlete" to describe climbers (as well as skiers, mountain bikers etc)?

No.
 Howard J 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: It's all part of a tendency to view climbing as a "sport". There's an increasing focus on training, grade obsession and targets. Of course, for some that's always been the case, but for many (perhaps most) climbers it's simply an activity to be enjoyed.
In reply to Robert Durran: The confusion arises not from the description of climbers and alpinists as athletes, which they surely are, but of the use of the term 'athletes' to encompass a group of people that do track and field events. They are athletes too of course, but just as we're climbers they are runners, throwers, jumpers and so forth. For some reason they don't wish to be described as such and prefer the greater cachet they assume comes with the word athlete.

T.
 Michael Ryan 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:


> Ueli Steck is not a great athlete; he is a great alpinist.

No, he's a great alpinist, climber and a superb athlete.

Great topic by the way.
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to petestack:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> [...]
>
> No.

Clearly not the case judging by other responses!

 petestack 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to petestack)
> Clearly not the case judging by other responses!

Should be obvious I'm answering for myself. If the question's really 'anyone else' then the answer's bound to be 'yes' because someone somewhere's bound to share your view!

 Alun 30 Sep 2010
In reply to moo:
> ath·lete
> –noun
> a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill

Thankyou.

In theory, that should be the thread done and dusted, but I dare say it'll go on a while longer

Serpico 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Alun:

Worth posting again.

ath·lete
–noun
a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill


The top climbers clearly are athletes, the people on this thread arguing against the use of the term aren't and for whatever reason this pisses them off.
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
>
> I think you should take up yoga Robert. All this getting annoyed can't be good for your blood pressure.

I like getting annoyed - it gets me really psyched and aggressive to try harder when I train.
>
> Have you considered that firms like BD and Marmot use the term simply because they sponsor people who aren't only climbers?

This is no excuse. It is just lazy. They could refer to the climbers as climbers and the skiers as skiers etc.


> Anyway have you looked at Patagonia - they don't have athletes, they have "Ambassadors"!!!! This is an OUTRAGE!!!!

Thanks for reminding me. I shall add Patagonia to my blacklist of companies to boycott. Hopefully this will cause a major diplomatic incident.
Tam Stone 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Serpico: Finally, some sense is posted. Durran, you need to chill out and give your monstrous ego a rest.
 Bill Davidson 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Serpico:
> (In reply to Alun)
>
> Worth posting again.
>
> ath·lete
> –noun
> a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill
>
> The top climbers clearly are athletes, the people on this thread arguing against the use of the term aren't and for whatever reason this pisses them off.


Agreed!
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Serpico:
> (In reply to Alun)
>
> Worth posting again.
>
> ath·lete
> –noun
> a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill
>
> The top climbers clearly are athletes, the people on this thread arguing against the use of the term aren't and for whatever reason this pisses them off.

Actually, by both those definitions I am, technically, an athlete but I would never be so pretentious and up my own arse as to describe myself as such. I am just a dedicated climber.

Anyway, the second definition does not imply that you necessarily have to be any good at a sport to be an athlete, so presumably all the punters at Stanage or down the wall are athletes too.

OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Tam Stone:
> Durran, you need to give your monstrous ego a rest.

What on earth has this got to do with my ego?!

Its the people who would describe thenselves as athletes who have some sort of ego and inferiority complex problem!

 slacky 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Who gives a shit?

If you don't like using the term to describe climbers then don't. But don't get wound up by others using it, I'm sure Black Diamond will miss your business.
 Michael Ryan 30 Sep 2010
 Andy Hardy 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
[...]
> presumably all the punters at Stanage or down the wall are athletes too.

Yes, they are. Why does this annoy you so much?

I'm sure heard Brendan Foster referring to 'athletes' when he meant funrunners on the great north run a couple of weeks ago.
Serpico 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Tam Stone:
> (In reply to Serpico) Finally, some sense is posted.

It was actually the first reply on the topic by moo, I merely used the magic of Bold to emphasize it.
Serpico 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Serpico)
> [...]
>
> Actually, by both those definitions I am, technically, an athlete but I would never be so pretentious and up my own arse as to describe myself as such. I am just a dedicated climber.
>
> Anyway, the second definition does not imply that you necessarily have to be any good at a sport to be an athlete, so presumably all the punters at Stanage or down the wall are athletes too.

Apart from the absence of the key qualities listed in the definition: gifted/trained and skill.

 scooott 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
Athlete doesn't mean 'one who trains/ participates in athletics'.

It means a person trained to compete in sports.
So the climbers branded by Black Diamond and so on = athletes.
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Serpico:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> [...]
>
> Apart from the absence of the key qualities listed in the definition: gifted/trained and skill.

You seem not to have noticed that I wqas referring to the second of your quoted definitions.

 Keeg 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
I wonder what's more pretentious. To use the generally accepted all encompassing term for people who undertake some sort of physical activity (i.e. athlete) or to pretend that climbing somehow stands apart from all other physical activity and transcends mere athleticism and can only be defined by a self-referential term ("one is not a simple athlete, one is a Climber")? I know which side of the pretentious guff wank line I think your opinion lies on. It all smacks a bit of "I'm an artist don't you know?"...
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
 Chris F 30 Sep 2010
In reply to TobyA:
>
> Anyway have you looked at Patagonia - they don't have athletes, they have "Ambassadors"!!!! This is an OUTRAGE!!!!

I know, not one of them has ever offered me a Ferrero Rocher.
 George Fisher 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Ueli Steck can throw a javelin 200 miles.
 Andrew Smith 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: I know what you mean, I have not slept for weeks thinking about it......

Not.
 royal 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
Sport climbing = Athletics ? ( <just in case anyone takes me too seriously)
TimS 30 Sep 2010
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
>
>
> [...]
>
> "Ha! Suckers! I claim asylum in the residence of the Ambassador of Patagonia! Whadaya gonna do about it now, losers!? You can't get me because I'm protected by international law!"

Flipping genius.

Robert:
I agree with Moo and Serpico, there are some climbers that are definitely athletes and the term is well used. The fact that you think it's pretentious to use the term probably says more about you than about athletes.

In reply to Serpico:
> (In reply to Alun)
>
> Worth posting again.
>
> ath·lete
> –noun
> a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill
>
> The top climbers clearly are athletes, the people on this thread arguing against the use of the term aren't and for whatever reason this pisses them off.

Exactly. The vast majority of us aren't athletes, but the like of MacLeod, McClure most certainly are. It's not just about their ability, it's also the way they apply themselves to training etc that makes them an athlete.
I can also think of a few top climbers (not going to name any though) who I wouldn't have thought of as athletes, but they get by with their raw talent and attitude.

I think the OP is confusing 'athlete' with 'athletics'.
In reply to Keeg: haha, well said
In reply to Keeg:

Well said my man. I'm with you to the death.

Another manifestation of Mr Durrant's pretensions is the assumption of a position of moral superiority from 'trad' climbers who bimble their way happily up Stanage MVSs, sometimes getting whole feet away from their last rock 10.

I hate this attitude. Hate it. The revolution starts here!
 GrahamD 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

These will be the same Athletes that go around in their Pants all the time, I guess ?
lanky_suction1 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> Everyone knows that athletes are people who run round in circles, jump and throw javelins and so on.

http://www.czech.cz/en/66616-disabled-athletes

Some of these people don't 'run around in circles, jump and throw javelins and so on', yet they are still being called 'athletes'. Does this make you froth at the mouth too?

You may notice that sports people such as skiers, swimmers, cylcists are included as ATHLETES, as well as people taking part in ATHLETICS, which includes a number of disciplines such as running, jumping and throwing.

I think it is your understanding of the english language which is flawed here, particularly the mixing up of the words 'athlete' and 'athletics', the definitions of which have been provided for you on this thread.
 PeterM 30 Sep 2010
In reply to moo:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> requiring physical skill

- like a snooker player or darts player, or a cricketer....
 Chris F 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: http://ronfawcett.com/

If the book says Big Ron is a Rcok Athlete, then you are wrong, because Ron can never be wrong.
 Chris F 30 Sep 2010
....although my spelling often is.
 Choss Weasel 30 Sep 2010
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
>
>
> I was running away from the police when I saw Steve House's pad. I leapt over the hedge and landing in his back garden shouted "Ha! Suckers! I claim asylum in the residence of the Ambassador of Patagonia! Whadaya gonna do about it now, losers!? You can't get me because I'm protected by international law!"


If the police ever try to arrest Steve House he just shouts "DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY!!" just like the bad guy in Lethal weapon 2.
 Mike Stretford 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: You're just not familiar with the use of the word in this context. Like many words in English it has slightly different meanings depending on context. Obviously it refers to track and field participants, but when used in the context of another sport (often football) it is used to emphasise the sportsman's all round physical excellence as opposed to the sports specific skills.

It may be a recent thing but I doubt it, and these one man 'change the language' campaigns are always doomed to failure.
 Chris F 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Choss Weasel:
> (In reply to TobyA)
> [...]
>
>
> If the police ever try to arrest Steve House he just shouts "DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY!!" just like the bad guy in Lethal weapon 2.

Except not with the pisspoor attempt at a South African accent.

 Stash 30 Sep 2010
In reply to PeterM:

Try telling Stuart Broad he isn't an athlete
 tom290483 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

why annoying? if a climber wants to be classed as an athlete then let them. a top level sport climber probably likes the term athlete.

is the term too mainstream for you? are you a goth type who likes to be seen as totally different to everyone else and doesnt like to think that you might actually be involved in an athletic endeavour of some sort?

 Keeg 30 Sep 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:
I am under the impression that, with the exception of cheese, we largely are of a similar opinion on most significant matters.

Fight the powers.
 teflonpete 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Keeg:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> I wonder what's more pretentious. To use the generally accepted all encompassing term for people who undertake some sort of physical activity (i.e. athlete) or to pretend that climbing somehow stands apart from all other physical activity and transcends mere athleticism and can only be defined by a self-referential term ("one is not a simple athlete, one is a Climber")? I know which side of the pretentious guff wank line I think your opinion lies on. It all smacks a bit of "I'm an artist don't you know?"...


I climb, therefore while I'm climbing I am a climber. It would be pretentious to call myself an athlete even though I "undertake some sort of physical activity" since most of the time it's a foot shuffling, grunting affair and I'm a fat lazy bum.
 Ian Jones 30 Sep 2010
In reply to petestack:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> [...]
>
> No.

Agreed.
Next issue please.

 McBirdy 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Okay - my 2p here. Firstly, I don't understand all of the hosility towards the OP - it was a perfectly valid thing to challenge. Or perhaps that's just the nature of UKC?

There are the semantics of it, which the pedants and nerds will delight in calling to witness, and then there is the real issue itself.

The distinction these companies are trying to make is between your average bimbling punter who talks the talk, buys the gear, but doesn't actually train properly, has little talent and aspires one day to lead HVS - versus their sponsored 'professional' (disclaimer: may not necessarily mean they make 100% of their living from it) climbers/skiers who are dedicated, focused, at/near the top of their disciple etc.

When I hear 'our sponsored athletes', I don't suddenly imagine Jessica Ennis (okay, I'll admit it - I'm often imaginging Jessica Ennis anyway), so in that respect I don't think it's misleading, no. I do however agree with Robert that it's just a bit naff. I don't imagine for a second that, when asked at a dinner party "what do you do?", Chris Sharma replies "Oh, I'm a professional althete.". No, he'd say "Well man, I'm totally psyched to be a rock climbing professional, dude... It's rad!" or words to that effect.

I'd agree with those people who argue that to be a professional climber at the top of your game you need to train, be fit etc etc and in so doing you'd probably become a good athlete (e.g. Ueli Steck) - but this is as a result of him being a pro rock climber. The bit that is being sponsored is the climber - if he suddenly got 'the fear' and took to being a middle of the road 400 metre runner I doubt that Mountain Hardwear woudl carry on sponsoring him.

On Ueli's page, here: http://www.mountainhardwear.com/Ueli-Steck---Alpinist/Athlete_Ueli_Steck,de... he falls under their main heading 'Althetes', but nowhere in his entry does it call him an althlete. So, the question is, what should they call their sponsored professionals instead of althetes? My suggestion: Sponsored professionals...

Ben

OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> These will be the same Athletes that go around in their Pants all the time, I guess ?

Only the American ones I hope. (unless they are wearing trousers or shorts over them)

 Damo 30 Sep 2010
In reply to TimS:
> ... there are some climbers that are definitely athletes and the term is well used. The fact that you think it's pretentious to use the term probably says more about you than about athletes.

Yes, I'd agree it does apply to *some* climbers, due to the way they train and go about their activity. But it's used by companies for *all* their sponsored climbers and is a relatively recent thing, started in the 90s (Big Ron aside) when companies were taking climbing mainstream and trying to convey a sense of professionalism and media-acceptability that 'climbing' did not previously have. The term 'athlete' in the US brings with it connotations that carry more weight than they do in the UK and it was some of this tasty pie that the outdoor marketers were trying to grab a slice of. You're much more likely to value the opinion follow the lead - and thus buy the product - of a dedicated professional, artfully photographed in matching kit with his/her (dream) 'team members', than a hippy who eats out of a dumpster and lives in a van.

I know some of these 'athletes' personally (admittedly mountaineers, not sport climbers) we've talked about this, and they alternatively laugh and cringe at the term put upon them. To imply that they train and 'compete' at the level of an Olympic athlete or US pro footballer/basketballer is ridiculous and they know it, but it's just part of the gig. They know the term is being used *very* broadly. It's OK so long as you see it for what it is, which some here seem laughably unable to do ...
 Damo 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Ben Darvill:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Okay - my 2p here. Firstly, I don't understand all of the hosility towards the OP - it was a perfectly valid thing to challenge.

+1
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Ben Darvill:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Okay - my 2p here. Firstly, I don't understand all of the hosility towards the OP - it was a perfectly valid thing to challenge. Or perhaps that's just the nature of UKC?

Thanks Ben! Isn't UKC great. I start a thread in a bored moment about something which I find slightly irritating and pretentious with my tongue slightly in my cheek in the hope of sparking a little debate, and I end up being being a sort of villified as an apparently pretentious, elitist hate figure myself! All rather amusing really...... Now what other little pet hates do I have?
 McBirdy 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Damo:

"a hippy who eats out of a dumpster and lives in a van" Ha ha - very good.

Or one that spends years like a tramp in a woodshed at Stoney, eating nothing but stale bagels, curry powder and smelling of piss.

Ben
 Offwidth 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

So are we special ones and should embrace inverse snobbery?

I see all good climbers as athletes. Uli Steck and Dave Macleod are great atheletes in any reasonable use of those words, irrespective of any US marketing hyperbole on the general subject. Its a word that means good at physical activity and any tautology involved with the word great is reasonable in that some athletes are much better than others.
 Mike Stretford 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Ben Darvill)
> [...]
>
> Thanks Ben! Isn't UKC great. I start a thread in a bored moment about something which I find slightly irritating and pretentious with my tongue slightly in my cheek in the hope of sparking a little debate, and I end up being being a sort of villified as an apparently pretentious, elitist hate figure myself!

I agree some people have gone way over the top..... you may be wrong but that doesn't make you a bad person!

Read Dave Macleod correctly refer to himself as an athlete here...

http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/

 Keeg 30 Sep 2010
In reply to teflonpete:
Wow, really? That is earth shattering news. Guess what, a footballer would describe themselves as a footballer rather than an athelete, a rugby player would describe themselves as a rugby player rather than an athelete, a runner would describe themselves as a runner rather than an athelete, a skiier would describe themselves as a skiier rather than an athelete. Do I need to go on or do you see the pattern?

Now do you want to make a point about the actual discussion?
Is it right for companies/TV presenters/journalists/etc to, when refering to climbers (which on the whole are operating at a high level), use the term athelete or should climbing be seen as a special case and the participants be referred to solely as "climbers"? This is with particular reference to companies that provide support to people participating in a broad range of physical activities who are looking to use a convenient umbrella term for the individuals they sponsor, or broadcasts made on national television to the general public who lack specific knowledge of climbing but do understand the meaning of the word athelete (which some people here apparently don't).
Any right thinking person will be of the opinion that the use of the term athelete is entirely appropriate in these (and probably other) situations.

There is also a side debate as to whether it is pretentious to consider climbers as atheletes or that it is pretentious to consider climbers a special case that can only ever be referred to as "climbers". Although the answer to this is so obvious that it barely merits discussion.

Perhaps you could provide us with yuor thoughts?
 nufkin 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

I get irritated, but I realise that by lots of reasonable standards many of the best climbers - and especially the best alpinists - really are good athletes. It still seems wrong to call them that, though.

Do footballers get referred to as 'athletes'?
 Andrew Smith 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Ben Darvill:
>
> Or one that spends years like a tramp in a woodshed at Stoney, eating nothing but stale bagels, curry powder and smelling of piss.
>
> Ben

Hilarious.

Our old climbing athletes would settle in well at the common wealth games village then?

OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
>
> There is also a side debate as to whether it is pretentious to consider climbers as atheletes or that it is pretentious to consider climbers a special case that can only ever be referred to as "climbers". Although the answer to this is so obvious that it barely merits discussion.

Why should climbers be a special case? I would feel the same if I was a skier or a footballer or a darts player or whatever. Yes, the answer is obvious: it is pretentious to call climbers athletes. But the discusssion is still a bit of a laugh.....
 Dark Peak Paul 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Gfunk:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Ueli Steck can throw a javelin 200 miles.


So they say, but only from the top of a very high mountain. Now the Stig on the other hand.......
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) I agree some people have gone way over the top..... you may be wrong but that doesn't make you a bad person!

Yes, technically I am wrong, but that is not the point. And, by the way, I am definitely a bad person.
>
> Read Dave Macleod correctly refer to himself as an athlete here...
>
> http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/

My God, Mountain Equipment are selling slacklines! What has the world come to? Soon they will sponsoring slackliners and calling bthem athletes. Another company for the blacklist. A shame really, because they used to make good, honest, functional kit.

OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Damo:
> To imply that they train and 'compete' at the level of an Olympic athlete is ridiculous and they know it.

Ueli Steck and Dave Macleod almost certainly train and perform (though not compete) at the level of an olympic athlete.
 andrewm1000 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC: good one, i really couldn't stop laughing. regards
KTT 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: What I find annoying is people who describe themselves as climbers when all they do is go out and mess about on HS's etc, I'm not a climber I'm a week end wannabe.
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to KTT:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) What I find annoying is people who describe themselves as climbers when all they do is go out and mess about on HS's

Of course they are not climbers. By definition you have to climb at least E6 to be classified as a climber. They are, however, really crap athletes.
 Damo 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Damo)
> [...]
>
> Ueli Steck and Dave Macleod almost certainly train and perform (though not compete) at the level of an olympic athlete.

Yes, I know, those were two that I was thinking of when I said that it applies to *some* climbers. I'm sure Kelly won't mind me linking to him as an alternative example of climber-as-'Athlete': http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/

Though of course he's technically an 'Ambassador' so he'll no doubt claim Diplomatic Immunity from all this ...

US marketers want to make everyone think they're an athlete. A recent (2009?) tag line for Gatorade said "You Train Like An Athlete. You Should Drink Like An Athlete" or some such rubbish. Now we're all athletes if we just buy the right stuff.

And as for marketers with both eyes on the mainstream and their back to the grassroots, there's a blinking Berghaus ad above one of these forums that calls Leo Houlding "big wall conqueror ..".

Conqueror? Really? I thought we were past all that. We don't conquer things now, ffs, we're ATHLETES, man!
 McBirdy 30 Sep 2010
In reply to KTT:

I can't say I agree with that. If you go out climbing then you're climber. You might not be a very good one (no offence intended), but I'd call anyone that ties in now and again a climber. The more the merrier.

Ben
Dirk Didler 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: If climbers are athletes then i'm delighted, i mean when i look in the mirror i see well muscled legs,shoulders,arms its the feckin 185r tyre round the middle that always made me cringe but if i,m an athlete it must be ment to be there, as an aid to mantel shelfing of course
 TobyA 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Damo:

> Though of course he's technically an 'Ambassador' so he'll no doubt claim Diplomatic Immunity from all this ...

Like I said, he isn't covered by the 1961 Vienna Convention on blah blah blah, so "he's not the ambassador, he's a very naughty boy!"

Actually, Kelly seems like a bit of a dude, so if I jumped over his hedge in the middle of the night on the run from the cops, I'm sure he would hide me in his garden shed. Although, do Americans have garden sheds?
Removed User 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Serpico:
> (In reply to Alun)
>
> Worth posting again.
>
> ath·lete
> –noun
> a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill
>
> The top climbers clearly are athletes, the people on this thread arguing against the use of the term aren't and for whatever reason this pisses them off.

"a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill" so that will cover darts players as well. Never heard Jocky Wilson described as an athlete though, pity.

Another less unlikely group who don't describe themselves as athletes are gymnasts. Probably our nearest equivalent in the world of organised sport.

I think the definition is really too broad for modern usage of the word. I'd say that most activities that mainly involve some form of physical fitness but not much else could be termed "athletic" but activities such as climbing or gymnastics which also require a considerable degree of skill are not.
 Offwidth 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: Why on earth would a highly skilled slackliner not be regarded as an athelete?
 McBirdy 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Offwidth:

Or a very fast touch-typist for that matter.

OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) Why on earth would a highly skilled slackliner not be regarded as an athelete?

Because it would be just as,if not more pretentious than describing a climber as an athlete.


OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Ben Darvill:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
>
> Or a very fast touch-typist for that matter.

No reason at all if you follow the logic of some people on this thread....

 doz generale 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

i also dislike the way the media call everyone in the military a "hero"
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to doz generale:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> i also dislike the way the media call everyone in the military a "hero"

Agreed, but I think some actually are.
Whereas, in my book, no climbers are athletes (or, for that matter, heros - at least not on account of their climbing)

ice.solo 30 Sep 2010
In reply to TobyA:

hed hide you in his chicken coop, dope you with margeritas and show you his graphic collection of injury photos.

for an athlete he sure consumes a lot of tequila.
 mypyrex 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: Hmmm; can't imagine Don Whillans ever having considered himself to be an athlete ;0)
ice.solo 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

olympics has nothing to do with it. are fat pistol shooters athletes?
the olympics recognizes bridge you know.
and if that is your angle, climbing has been trialed as an olympic sport (summer olympics recognizes 3 types of climbing, winter olympics recognizes 3 also).
barcelona had a very high media coverage of climbing - including the immortal footage of wolfgangs one finger pull up.
now there was an athlete.

some climbers are athletes because what they do is athletic. they train, they compete, they focus.
pretty simple really.
 Stash 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Why is it Pretentious to call a climber an athlete?

Athlete is surely a term used for someone who regularly takes part in a sport.

If their a competitive climber then surely they could be described as an athlete.
Equally if their not competitive.

Its not like once there an "athlete" we forget they are also a climber.

you need to lighten up mate.
 PeterM 30 Sep 2010
In reply to ice.solo:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> are fat pistol shooters athletes?

yes - see above definition about 'physical skill'

> they train, they compete, they focus.
> pretty simple really.

The trouble with the term 'athlete' is it is so overused as to be almost meaningless.
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to ice.solo:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> olympics has nothing to do with it.

Agreed. I would not automatically consider someone in the olympics to be an athlete (unless they actually were!)

> are fat pistol shooters athletes?

Not in my opinion

> the olympics recognizes bridge you know.

Personally I think that is a bit of a joke.

> and if that is your angle, climbing has been trialed as an olympic sport (summer olympics recognizes 3 types of climbing, winter olympics recognizes 3 also).

It is not my angle, but I wish it hadn't been trialled and I hope it never is an olympic sport, but that is just my personal opinion and in the end I am not too bothered.
 doz generale 30 Sep 2010
In reply to ice.solo:

there used to be an olympic medal for town planning and for poetry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_art_competitions
 Mr Lopez 30 Sep 2010
In reply to TobyA:

> Anyway have you looked at Patagonia - they don't have athletes, they have "Ambassadors"!!!! This is an OUTRAGE!!!! These climbers and skiers are masquerading as ambassadors yet are clearly not covered by the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. When last in Colorado, after a night of drinking, vandalism and bar fights, I was running away from the police when I saw Steve House's pad. I leapt over the hedge and landing in his back garden shouted "Ha! Suckers! I claim asylum in the residence of the Ambassador of Patagonia! Whadaya gonna do about it now, losers!? You can't get me because I'm protected by international law!" They stepped into the garden, tasered me and dragged me off to jail. I'm now writing stiff letters to my MP and the Daily Mail pointing out that Marko Prezelj isn't really the Slovenian ambassador despite the claims of the Patagonia website! This is an OUTRAGE. If I could write in a green font I would!

Ha, Ha! I read this for the first time 3 hours ago and i'm still laughing!
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Stash:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> you need to lighten up mate.

No I don't. I think this thread is quite entertaining. The various opinions are interesting, though I must admit I am surprised at the extent to which I appear outnumbered and am mystified by some of the vehemence.
 Stash 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Sorry shouldn't get personal should I.

OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Stash:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Sorry shouldn't get personal should I.

No problem.

OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to PeterM:
> The trouble with the term 'athlete' is it is so overused as to be almost meaningless.

This is certainly becoming true. With every company referring to everyone they sponsor as an "athlete" it is inevitable; if you believe that the term should be reserved for the elite, then its elitist status is eroded, and if you believe it refers to anyone doing any physical activity, then it means little anyway.

 MattOwen 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

I suggest the current dimensions of my beer-gut render my being an athlete impossible. These same dimensions, however, are perfectly compatible with my being a climber...

albeit a rather crap one.
 4291 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Question for Robert...

I have previously played football; does that make me a footballer?
 Mike_Gannon 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: I guess I could accept it more if it weren't for the over enthusiastic way commentators/pundits in genaral speak about these things to give the mindless drivel they spout a sense of importance.

Post Labour leader elections for example. Hours of TV coverage where everyone said things like 'new direction' 'change' 'strong leader', but no-one appeared to mention the guys politics. Drone drone sorry.
 Mr Lopez 30 Sep 2010
Just to add my 2p, those linking internet definitions did a bit of a selective job...
Here's what it came out in 'the free dictionary'

- A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in COMPETITIVE contexts.
From Latin thlta, from Greek thlts, CONTESTANT, from thlein, TO CONTEND, possibly from thlos, CONTEST

-(Individual Sports & Recreations / Athletics (TRACK & FIELD)) a person trained to COMPETE in sports or exercises involving physical strength, speed, or endurance

-(Individual Sports & Recreations / Athletics (TRACK & FIELD)) Chiefly Brit, a COMPETITOR in TRACK & FIELD events
from Latin via Greek athl&#275;t&#275;s, from athlein to COMPETE for a prize, from athlos a CONTEST

-Thesaurus: a person trained to COMPETE in sports

Can you spot the common denominator? A clue, is in capitals (i don't know how to put it in bold).

It seems to me that the final definition of an athlete would be someone who trains to compete in field and track sports.

Even if you take out the field and track part, i think 99% of climbers would be exempt, the same way that someone who plays football with the mates in the park is not an athlete.


 Mr Lopez 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Mr Lopez:

Oh! And i also hate it when people uses the term Athlete when referring to climbers!
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Mr Plow:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Question for Robert...
>
> I have previously played football; does that make me a footballer?

Probably not. Just an ex footballer.

 4291 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Mr Plow)
> [...]
>
> Probably not. Just an ex footballer.

Nest you'll be telling me that when I used to stack shelve I wasn't a replenishment professional.

TimS 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Mr Lopez: I compete against the rock, sometimes the rock wins, sometimes we draw.
 Mr Lopez 30 Sep 2010
In reply to TimS:
> (In reply to Mr Lopez) I compete against the rock, sometimes the rock wins, sometimes we draw.

Not surprised http://topwwewrestlers.blogspot.com/2008_07_01_archive.html

 McBirdy 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Robert - you've smelt my climbing shoes, haven't you? And seen my feet? Given that I undoubtedly have althetes foot, I must by definition be an athlete, right?
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Keeg:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> ........pretend that climbing somehow stands apart from all other physical activity and transcends mere athleticism and can only be defined by a self-referential term ("one is not a simple athlete, one is a Climber")? I know which side of the pretentious guff wank line I think your opinion lies on. It all smacks a bit of "I'm an artist don't you know?"...

Having just read your post again, I find it completely the wrong way round:
Surely "one is not a simple climber, one is an athlete" or "I'm an athlete don't you know....." would display an extraordinary level of pretentious guff wank (if I may borrow your fine phrase) if coming from a climber. I feel you have shot yourself painfully in the foot!

OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Ben Darvill:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Robert - you've smelt my climbing shoes, haven't you? And seen my feet? Given that I undoubtedly have althetes foot, I must by definition be an athlete, right?

Mine are far worse (and I am proud of it) and I'm no athlete.....

As a PE teacher of mine used to memorably snarl if one produced a note claiming examption from PE because of athlete's foot: "so where's the blinking athlete laddie?"

 McBirdy 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

It sounds like he's shot himself in his althetes foot! Is this a known treatment/cure?
 Mick Ward 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Stash:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Why is it Pretentious to call a climber an athlete?

> Athlete is surely a term used for someone who regularly takes part in a sport.

Well, I'd argue that climbing isn't a sport. And, to me, it seems pretentious to call a climber an athlete. Isn't it just another 'vested interest' (i.e. marketing/money) term?

I wouldn't lose sleep over it though.

Mick
 Stash 30 Sep 2010
zzzzzzzzzzz
 Mick Ward 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Stash:

A thoughtful, erudite and courteous reply.

Mick
 MJ 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Mick Ward:

"Isn't it just another 'vested interest'"

Athletes wear vests, therefore climbers must be athletes.

 Keeg 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Keeg)
> [...]
>
> Having just read your post again, I find it completely the wrong way round:
> Surely "one is not a simple climber, one is an athlete" or "I'm an athlete don't you know....." would display an extraordinary level of pretentious guff wank (if I may borrow your fine phrase) if coming from a climber. I feel you have shot yourself painfully in the foot!

I think you have rather missed my point (and I'm beginning to suspect you have done so and will continue to do so in a rather deliberate fashion so as to drag out this ongoing pointlessness, hey-ho). Anyway the individuals in question have already been referred to as athletes, that was your initial point. At that juncture it would be pretentious to state "I'm not simply an athlete, I am a climber". Equally if they had been referred to as climbers and corrected by saying "I am not simply a climber, I am an athlete" that would also be pretentious. The label itself is not pretentious without a context, you have already established the context (the aforementioned broadcast and sponsoring company bumpff) I was merely pointing out which is the more pretentious standpoint in that context.
Anyway you have wasted enough of my time, I assume you will continue to disagree with me. Either through a genuine belief of what you're stating or (more likely in my opinion) some strange desire to extend a pointless debate.
 Mick Ward 30 Sep 2010
In reply to MJ:

I guess so. I'm leery of the 'mainstream' taking over climbing. Will it become an offence to climb without a helmet, insurance and a permit in 30 years time??

In the 70s, when climbing walls were in sports centres, the relevant 'managers' (I use the term loosely!) despaired of climbers as anarchic individualists who couldn't be regulated.

Strange when nowadays we have lots of climbing walls run by and for climbers which are pretty well regulated - in a nice kind of way.

Mick
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Keeg:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> [...]
> Anyway the individuals in question have already been referred to as athletes, that was your initial point. At that juncture it would be pretentious to state "I'm not simply an athlete, I am a climber". Equally if they had been referred to as climbers and corrected by saying "I am not simply a climber, I am an athlete" that would also be pretentious. The label itself is not pretentious without a context, you have already established the context (the aforementioned broadcast and sponsoring company bumpff) I was merely pointing out which is the more pretentious standpoint in that context.


Thankyou for clarifying that you were referring to a particular context. I can see better where you are coming from now. However,if, as I assume you believe, climbers are a subset of athletes, then the statement "I am not simply a climber, I am an athlete" is always unnecessary and (in my view) pretentious, whereas the ststement "I am not simply an athlete, I am a climber" at least tells us something and is not at all necessarily pretentious.

I assume you will not bother replying again!

ps Lighten up! If the debate is no longer interesting or fun, forget it.
In reply to Robert Durran: Don Whillans, climber? Yep I can go with that. Athlete? err no.

Another vote for pretentious guff
In reply to Robert Durran:

How long did you take on the Eiger - three days i would guess, punterdom.

Steck solo in a couple of hours, surely that gives him Athlete status, Horses for courses really, i'm a Climber but some other climbers make superhuman eforts.

OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Conquistador of the usless:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> How long did you take on the Eiger - three days i would guess, punterdom.

Five actually. Exceptional punterdom!
>
> Steck solo in a couple of hours, surely that gives him Athlete status.

That is not the point! It just gives him brilliant climber status in my view.
> Horses for courses really, i'm a Climber but some other climbers make superhuman eforts.

Taking into account my relative extreme lack of talent and fitness, my five day effort could be argued to be just as great as his two hours. I would be more impressed if he did something so hard that it took even him five days. Anyway, I believe his two hour ascent wasn't an onsight, so is clearly invalid.


OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Conquistador of the usless:
> Some other climbers make superhuman eforts.

Incidentally, the most awesome climbing effort I have ever witnessed was on a VS. Now, if I tried that hard.....

 chris j 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: Some climbers are athletes, most aren`t, similar to runners as opposed to recreational joggers, olympic swimmers are athletes, me splashing around in a swimming pool isn`t quite the same - it`s just a matter of how you approach your chosen sport. Climbing isn`t exactly a hotbed of subversive counterculture anymore so I don`t think you can treat it differently from other activities...
In reply to Robert Durran:

Were you not impressed with my onsight solo of that E3 at Back Bwden a few years ago, yes it was you, i had a baby with me although opted not to solo with the child in a papoose!. Maybe i had Athlete status back then!!!??
In reply to Fawksey:

Come on Fawksey Whillians an Athlete, he trained in the pub,it coudn't be any clearer.
In reply to Conquistador of the usless: The Griffin in Haslingden which he used to frequent is up a pretty steep hill too so he must have got fit for yomping staggering up there on an evening.
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Conquistador of the usless:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Were you not impressed with my onsight solo of that E3 at Back Bwden a few years ago, yes it was you.

I am afraid I have no recollection of this. Must have been a while back. Sorry!
In reply to Robert Durran:

Does Broomstick not jog the memory, maybe i'm mixing you up with someone else from Edinburgh about ten years hence jeeez.
 Keeg 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Keeg)

> ps Lighten up!

Coming from the person fretting about which exact words can be used to describe someone who goes climbing...

I think we just simply have different views. I'll just live and let live on this one...
 teflonpete 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Keeg:
> (In reply to teflonpete)
> There is also a side debate as to whether it is pretentious to consider climbers as atheletes or that it is pretentious to consider climbers a special case that can only ever be referred to as "climbers". Although the answer to this is so obvious that it barely merits discussion.
>
> Perhaps you could provide us with yuor thoughts?

I think it's the other way round. It's pretentious for some people to say that climbers are atheletes, for the simple reason that many are not. Certainly top climbers like Dave Macleod, Euli Steck, Steve McClure etc are atheletes but to describe ALL climbers as atheletes (as some on here have), is clearly not true for anyone who's seen someone scrabbling away, toproping a V.Diff at Stanage.

If comparing top climbers with other atheletes then yes, I would agree that setting climbers aside as a special case is indeed pretentious.

TimS 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Fawksey:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) Don Whillans, climber? Yep I can go with that. Athlete? err no.

Good that you have to rely on an example from 40 years ago when hard climbing was in its infancy. If you looked at more contemporary climbers you may see why the term athlete is accurately used in many cases.

OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Keeg:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Coming from the person fretting about which exact words can be used to describe someone who goes climbing...
>
> I think we just simply have different views. I'll just live and let live on this one...


That's cool. The thread was really just a bit of fun.....
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Conquistador of the usless:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Does Broomstick not jog the memory

Afraid not, but I struggle to remember anything these days!
OP Robert Durran 30 Sep 2010
In reply to teflonpete:
> (In reply to Keeg)
>
> If comparing top climbers with other atheletes then yes, I would agree that setting climbers aside as a special case is indeed pretentious.

But this would only apply if you refered to the top performers in all physical sports/activities apart from climbing as athletes. I would not consider climbers a special case. I would make no special case; only those commonly thought of as athletes (ie runners, jumpers, throwers) would I call athletes.

In reply to TimS: Hey come on lets be fair he was still better than you.
TimS 30 Sep 2010
In reply to Fawksey: At drinking, yes.
In reply to TimS: summiting 8000m peaks?
 SimonTp 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Robert, Heavens. I can't imagine that even you anticipated such a fine response. It's probably been mentioned above somewhere but I ought to go to bed: "Almost alone amongst his own and later generations of rock-gymnasts and athletes (in no sense is the term of mere rock-climber adequate to the activity in which he's engaged), he is untroubled by the crippling finger tendon and shoulder, etc"
OP Robert Durran 01 Oct 2010
In reply to SJT:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Robert, Heavens. I can't imagine that even you anticipated such a fine response.

Most entertaining! Did you get my text? Ratho Sunday? (unless the forecast is wrong and its not raining.....)
OP Robert Durran 01 Oct 2010
In reply to SJT:

Oh, and by the way, I disagree with the quote. It's like saying "in no way is the term physicist (however brilliant) adequate to do justice to Einstein's achievement".
 hamish2016 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Nevermind climbers being classed as athletes, Marmot classify professional photographers as athletes!!!! (see right hand side of page)
http://marmotukathleteblog.blogspot.com/
 The New NickB 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

I love these long debates that stem from someones inability to understand what words mean.

I am not really an athlete, just a recreational climber, runner and cyclist, but like many others I have an England Athletics Competition Licence, so by your definition I am probably an athlete, but Uli Steck isnt.
OP Robert Durran 01 Oct 2010
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> I am not really an athlete, just a recreational climber, runner and cyclist, but like many others I have an England Athletics Competition Licence, so by your definition I am probably an athlete, but Uli Steck isnt.

As far as I am concerned, if you do say discus throwing, however badly, you are an athlete. If the term is extended to other activities than athletics, I don't see why it should then be only confined to elite performers. So either both you and Ueli Steck are athletes, or you are and he isn't. What's the problem with that? (unless, of course Ueli Steck does a bit of athletics in his spare time).

 The New NickB 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Which takes us back to understanding what words mean.
OP Robert Durran 01 Oct 2010
In reply to The New NickB:
> Which takes us back to understanding what words mean.

Yes, and I feel that the word "athlete" has been hijacked for pretentious reasons and possibly commercial reasons.

 The New NickB 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
> Yes, and I feel that the word "athlete" has been hijacked for pretentious reasons and possibly commercial reasons.

Your feeling does not define the meaning of the word. You have chosen to define it as a very narrow subset of its actual meaning, then taken issue with people using the general meaning.
OP Robert Durran 01 Oct 2010
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> [...]
>
> Your feeling does not define the meaning of the word. You have chosen to define it as a very narrow subset of its actual meaning, then taken issue with people using the general meaning.

Ok, but its increasingly ubiquitous use to describe climbers is a fairly recent phenomenon. I am interested in the reasons for this phenomenon. I suspect they are pretentious. I am not taking issue with the technical definition of the word; just with its common usage in actual practice. If we suddenly all went around describing ourselves commonly as primates ("I was talking to a primate from Glasgow yesterday"), we would not be wrong, but it would certainly be weird.

 Howard J 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: "Athlete" used to mean, or at least was generally understood to mean, someone who took part in athletics. Its extension to include other sports seems to me to be fairly recent - I suspect this is American usage, but this may be pure prejudice on my part!
 MJ 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

"If we suddenly all went around describing ourselves commonly as primates ("I was talking to a primate from Glasgow yesterday"), we would not be wrong, but it would certainly be weird".

Anywhere else but Glasgow maybe...

EasyAndy 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: i can see how the term athlete applies to climbers.

was making me laugh the other day when someone posted up a redbull photgallery and they were calling everyone in every photo an athlete, be them stunt plane pilots motorcyclists or skateboarders
OP Robert Durran 01 Oct 2010
In reply to EasyAndy:
> was making me laugh the other day when someone posted up a redbull photgallery and they were calling everyone in every photo an athlete, be them stunt plane pilots motorcyclists or skateboarders

It was exactly that ridiculous Redbull thing that made me finally snap and start start this thread. Some good pictures of surfers though!

 Mike Stretford 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Howard J:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) "Athlete" used to mean, or at least was generally understood to mean, someone who took part in athletics. Its extension to include other sports seems to me to be fairly recent - I suspect this is American usage, but this may be pure prejudice on my part!

I don't think so. Wasn't the tv show 'Rock Athlete' with Brit Ron Fawcett made in the late 70s or early 80s? Pele was being described as the greatest athlete in 1981...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9

neither of these would be US influenced.
OP Robert Durran 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to Howard J)
> [...]
>
> I don't think so. Wasn't the tv show 'Rock Athlete' with Brit Ron Fawcett made in the late 70s or early 80s? Pele was being described as the greatest athlete in 1981...

Occasional uses,yes. But not the ubiquity we now have.
 Steeve 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

apologies if someones already done this, but:

Noun
athlete (plural athletes)
(US) A person who actively participates in physical sports, possibly highly skilled in sports. (Known in British English as a "sportsperson".)
(UK) A participant in track and field sports.
An exceptionally physically fit person.

according to wiktionary anyway.

so it would appear perfectly valid for american companies like red bull and black diamond to use the term "athlete"

and increasingly the US meaning is being used in the UK, which isnt neccessarily a bad thing.
to me "athlete" suggests a committed sportsperson who trains properly and competes regularly.

so in modern climbing, there are definitely some athletes.
(I think we can substitute "competes" for repeats, new routes etc.)
 Mike Stretford 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: Maybe it just reflects the trend of sports in general becoming more 'athletic'?

Here we have a 19th century use of the word relating to football

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Oldham_Athletic_A.F.C.

 TobyA 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> If we suddenly all went around describing ourselves commonly as primates ("I was talking to a primate from Glasgow yesterday"),

You sure he was from all of Ireland?
cicero 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: Bet you've got a photo of you throwing a discus.This whole thread seems to have got itself,if I might say ,tied in a knot.Pretentious,moi ,but to quote wittgenstein "The meaning of a word is its use in a context".words are not blocks of stone,sorry again,.Of course it's fine to use the term "athlete"of climbers .The difficulty with that word is that it also has an evaluative element implying excellence .so you can say some climbers lack athleticism ,implying they're not very god. As Mick Ryan also adds (and no one really picked up on the point,you could describe(and probably more accurately) (some)climbers as rock gymnasts and I suspect you'd find that the true measure of ability of climbers at the top of the sport(?)lies in their gymnastic skills.After them ,the rest of us are on downward incline.Let's get on and enjoy
OP Robert Durran 01 Oct 2010
In reply to cicero:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) Bet you've got a photo of you throwing a discus.

No I havn't (as far as I am aware....)
cicero 01 Oct 2010
In reply to cicero: Apologies to Keeg and Papillon who have made the same point more directly about the contextual meaning of language.Yawn.
from an ageing philosopher,child gymnast,average climber ,ex-athlete and rugby player.it's all just too confusing
EasyAndy 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Steeve: redbull are austrian
 armus 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> I agree.
>
> Climbers are not athletes....they are
>
> Rock Gymnasts.

I was wondering when someone would use the word "gymnast" I've seen indoor wallers & boulderers becoming upset when they are told that they are gymnasts, not climbers & certainly not mountaineers.

OP Robert Durran 01 Oct 2010
In reply to EasyAndy:
> (In reply to Steeve) redbull are austrian

Maybe, but they have evil bolt drilling plans for world domination. Maybe the Patagonian ambassadors could thwart their plans.....
CleanHome 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: I've recently noticed this too. During the live televised climb on Sron Ulluldale with Dave MacLeod and Tim Emmet, the commentators kept saying things like "It goes without saying that these guys are tremendous athletes". It struck me as a word I had never heard used to describe climbing before. Is it suitable? I wasn't too sure if it was. After all, climbing is not athletics is it? Running, triathlons etc certainly are but I don't see how rock climbing fits in with those type of sports.

-------------------------
first cleaning then climbing
http://local-domestic-cleaning-services.co.uk
 Andy Cairns 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
> If we suddenly all went around describing ourselves commonly as primates ... we would not be wrong, but it would certainly be weird.

Johnny Dawes "Stone Monkey"??

Conjures up a very different (and in my view, more interesting) picture then "athlete".

Cheers
Andy
 The New NickB 01 Oct 2010
In reply to CleanHome:

It is very simple. Good climbers do not fit in you definition of athletes because your definition of athlete is too simplistic and too wedded to the idea that athletes only athletics, or what Americans would call track and field. Climbing, especially when done well is an athletic activity.
 Snowboy 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Can you imagine Don Whillans response if anyone had called him an athlete?
ice.solo 01 Oct 2010
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to CleanHome)
>
> It is very simple. Good climbers do not fit in you definition of athletes because your definition of athlete is too simplistic and too wedded to the idea that athletes only athletics, or what Americans would call track and field. Climbing, especially when done well is an athletic activity.


here here
 4291 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Snowboy:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Can you imagine Don Whillans response if anyone had called him an athlete?

No, never met him.
OP Robert Durran 01 Oct 2010
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to CleanHome)
Climbing, especially when done well is an athletic activity.

I refer to my OP. Economics can be a mathematical activity, but that would not make a mathematical economist a mathematician (in my opinion).

Ok, so it all comes down to definitions, and I am prepared to concede that I am wrong on this. I wish now that I had stuck to the pretentiousness issue which is what actually irritates me. You will probably say I shouldn't be because of the definitions, but I would contest this - that was the point of my earlier post about the hypothetical weird but technically correct use of the word "primate".

Maybe it is time to pack this in! I'm off to the wall to hone my athleticism..........



 Mike Stretford 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]

Even though I've been playing devil's advocate on this I can see what you're getting at, the word is being used inappropriately (or where other words would be more suitable). The word is used in other sports to convey a certain meaning, which could be lost if this overuse carries on.

For an example of how I interpret the term, I would describe Ryan Giggs as a great athlete, though not Eric Cantona, even though I have great admiration for Eric as a player.

 fred99 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Papillon:
(to any and all really)

As a former track & field athletics competitor, and now official, I have always known persons taking part here refer to themselves as either;
Runners, Throwers, Jumpers, Sprinters, Hurdlers, Vaulters (and yes Walkers) first and foremost, and then as Athletes only really a very poor second, but mainly by those NOT involved in the activity.
Furthermore I am a qualified Track & Field Athletics Official - not an Athletics Official.

Athlete and Athletic are general terms, not specific.
In reply to fred99: I still fail to see how you are qualified to comment
cicero 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Fawksey: I presume you're joking.fred is simply trying to point out that athlete ,athletics are generic terms covering a wide range of abilities ,skill sets,techniques and training programmes some overlapping ,many totally incompatible.Geoff Capes,Phillips odowu,Jessica Ennis,Steve Backley,and Mo farah ,all engaged in very different activities (but all engaged in the"athletics") .You can equally apply the terms "athlete" and "athleticism" to Adam Ondra ,Dave McLeod,Lucy Creamer and many other top climbers.You can't bar the use of the words simply because they do not engage in that narrow field. It's simply a matter of accepting that words take on many meanings and as I said earlier they're not solid objects like rocks hewn out of stone .There I go again.And that's the last you'll hear from me on this one
In reply to cicero: It was an attempt to be funny yes. He did make his point very well. However if he had started his point with "speaking as a mother" would that have made his point any less relevant or valid?
 Nic Robinson 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
I remember at college being told in no uncertain terms that climbing wasn't a sport........it was a past-time !!! Huh.
 Andy Moles 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Would you say this is a cup or a bowl?
http://tinyurl.com/38j7k62
 Cantona 01 Oct 2010
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> [...]
>
> > For an example of how I interpret the term, I would describe Ryan Giggs as a great athlete, though not Eric Cantona, even though I have great admiration for Eric as a player.

I don't know about that, I think my kung fu kick at Crystal Palace was extremely athletic . . . Anyway, everybody knows climbers are not athlete's, they're . . . vertical ballerinas!
JonRoger 02 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: Of course many moons ago climbers with attitude and/or ability were known as hard men - a badge of distinction one might think. Only a few trained properly (with weights and stuff) - the rest of us trained on late nights, beer and bacon butties (pies had not really been invented). Before that the top guys were tigers and the rest of us pussy cats (miaow). More recently it was 'wads' (I think). I always believed that a wad was either something you stuck in a canon with the powder and shot or a sandwich, but hey, I'm past it. And, since Ron, it's athlete. So the in crowd (at the top of the past-time?) tries to define itself as somehow different to the herd (nothing strange there) and the media guys will either take the self-definition or apply their own just to sex things up a bit.

We've had the odd hero - I await the next iteration with interest - geckos? (and wish I was a little more athletic!)
 armus 02 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

I was thinking what is the definition of a "climber"? Do you need to be a rock climber or is a hill climber enough? The Lakes hill trials e.g. are tough races. You need stamina,navigation skills & to be able to find your way over rough, steep terrain in cloud & mist. You don't know where your next objective will be until you arrive at the check point before it. Only then do they tell you where to go next, they give you map coordinates only, no fell names, they don't even tell you how long the race is, you don't know if the next check point is the last. A competiter needs to be very fit, even athletic. Does that make him a climber? I think it does & an athletic one.
 armus 02 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

I was thinking what is the definition of a "climber"? Do you need to be a rock climber or is a hill climber enough? The Lakes hill trials e.g. are tough races. You need stamina,navigation skills & to be able to find your way over rough, steep terrain in cloud & mist. You don't know where your next objective will be until you arrive at the point before it. Only then do they tell you where to go, they give you map coordinates only, no fell names, they don't even tell you how long the race is, you don't know if the next check point is the last. A competiter needs to be very fit, even athletic. Does that make him a climber? I think it does & an athletic one.
 Franco Cookson 02 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Wheres the athlete border? H8? below that we're all chubby punters and then we headpoint the **** out of something and BAM, we're all athletes. What a pile of paedophilia.
 dycotiles 02 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

I think you're drowning in a cup of tea ...
OP Robert Durran 02 Oct 2010
In reply to dycotiles:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> I think you're drowning in a cup of tea ...

Actually I am just drinking one....

OP Robert Durran 02 Oct 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Wheres the athlete border?

I've no idea. I have a feeling it might have more to do with attitude than grade. So a crap climber who trains scientifically 8 hours a day and only climbs VS could maybe be an athlete, while one of those annoying talented people who never trains but climbs E7 anyway isn't. I don't know.

> What a pile of paedophilia.

Odd expression.

 Andy Moles 07 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

Y'know what's even worse, and probably worthy of a 900-post thread in its own right, is the phrase 'rock boots' being used to describe climbing footwear. They bear no f**king resemblance to boots.
 Mick Ward 08 Oct 2010
In reply to andy moles:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> ...the phrase 'rock boots' being used to describe climbing footwear. They bear no f**king resemblance to boots.

Formerly (perhaps before your time?) it was the accepted practice to wear full-weight mountaineering boots for climbing. PAs were viewed as a radical compromise for hard climbing. Thus 'rock boots' was a generic term which,90% of the time, was literally correct.

To me, 'rock shoes' seems as odd as 'single pitch' and 'multipitch'. I guess it all comes down to our climbing upbringing!

Mick


 Andy Moles 08 Oct 2010
In reply to Mick Ward:

We didn't always have cars either, but I don't generally call mine a carriage.
In reply to andy moles: But do you still talk about the engine's output in horsepower?

T.
 Andy Moles 08 Oct 2010
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

I would if I ever talked about the engine's output, but that's just because I don't have any alternative terminology. I can still see a shoe and not call it a boot
 Mick Ward 08 Oct 2010
In reply to andy moles:
> (In reply to Pursued by a bear)
>
> I can still see a shoe and not call it a boot

Wittgenstein would have been proud of you.

Mick
 Andy Moles 08 Oct 2010
In reply to Mick Ward:

Is that empirically verifiable?
In reply to Mick Ward: Though not Rene Magritte, who would have wanted you to declare 'Ceci n'est pas une chaussure d'un grimpeur', though possibly only if he'd suffered a bad head injury and forgotten how to speak French properly.

T.
 Richard Baynes 08 Oct 2010
In reply to Pursued by a bear: I am an athlete, highly tuned, trained to within an inch of perfection, and I wish everyone to know this. My body is a temple too. Mind you I also work in the THE MEDIA, so it must be easy for you guys to see how I could get it so wrong...
 crieff427 08 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

so by your logic, a guy who dabbles in weekend athletics is an athlete but a guy like steck who trains scientifically to a very high level of fitness and ablity is not, or yer man macleod who has educated himself over many years in physiology, approaches to training, physical conditioning and then has applied that to his climbing and improved to a very high standard. I wonder if steck regards himself as an athlete. my guess is that only modesty might prevent him from saying he is. I wonder also if applying the term athlete to a climber may challenge widely held conceptions of 'what a climber is'.
your irritation at the use of the term athlete has muddled your thinking.
you hear sports commentators use the phrase 'these days, the guys have to be athletes.' sometimes this is possibly a bit of a tenuous statement but with regard to some sports that we may not regard as typically athletic, such as motor racing or some winter sports where you slide down chutes, the high standards at the top end demand an athlete's level of conditioning. this hints at another meaning possibly?
the majority will confirm that you're wrong probably.
ultimately, while you're typing a thread saying these guys aren't athletes, and while I'm typing a spiel saying that they are, they're probably out training, doing it, and improving!
 crieff427 08 Oct 2010
In reply to ice.solo:

you said better what I was trying to say.
 Mick Ward 08 Oct 2010
In reply to andy moles:
> (In reply to Mick Ward)
>
> Is that empirically verifiable?

'Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent'.

Mick
 Andy Moles 08 Oct 2010
In reply to Mick Ward:
> 'Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent'.

Reliable way to close a discussion then: invoke philosopher. Will take note!
 Mick Ward 08 Oct 2010
In reply to andy moles:

Sorry - that was sneaky! ("With age comes cunning...") But doubtless it will stand you in good stead at many a dinner party.

All best wishes,

Mick

P.S. Give my love to all those Mourne crags to which I used to wander.
OP Robert Durran 08 Oct 2010
In reply to crieff427:

I have already conceded that I am technically wrong on the definition of the word - I actually knew this when I started the thread, but decided, perhaps misguidedly, to be provocative (certainly successfully!). I (and others, though it seems not a majority) just find the word pretentious and cringeworthy when applied to climbers. This is just my personal feeling. It certainly takes nothing away fron climbers who train like olympic athletes!
 petestack 08 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
> It certainly takes nothing away fron climbers who train like olympic athletes!

Of course not... I mean, how could it when you're only denying their true status?
 Yanis Nayu 08 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: I feel quite strongly about this. People who do athletics (running, chucking stuff and jumping) are athletes; people who climb are climbers; people who play golf are golfers etc.

Calling everyone an athlete is a really irritating Americanism.

 petestack 08 Oct 2010
In reply to wayno265:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) I feel quite strongly about this.

So do I...

> People who do athletics (running, chucking stuff and jumping) are athletes; people who climb are climbers; people who play golf are golfers etc.

And (suppose you've read the thread because we've been through this ad infinitum?) you're wrong!
 jon 08 Oct 2010
In reply to petestack:

Actually Pete, I think the last (not... ) word should go to John Redhead:
"No man, we're rock cats!"
 petestack 08 Oct 2010
In reply to jon:

Think we could possibly resolve this whole thing by acknowledging that comparatively few folk doing anything (climbing, football, track and field athletics, whatever) describe themselves as athletes in place of something more specific and it tends to be a label most are more comfortable seeing applied from outside? A bit like that old definition of cool ('if you think you're cool, you're not')... on which note, I rarely even describe myself as a runner when I run, preferring to think of myself more as just a guy who likes running!
 lps 08 Oct 2010
In reply to petestack:
> (In reply to jon)
>
> Think we could possibly resolve this whole thing by acknowledging that comparatively few folk doing anything (climbing, football, track and field athletics, whatever) describe themselves as athletes in place of something more specific and it tends to be a label most are more comfortable seeing applied from outside? A bit like that old definition of cool ('if you think you're cool, you're not')... on which note, I rarely even describe myself as a runner when I run, preferring to think of myself more as just a guy who likes running!

like me, i really like to think of other people describing me as a rock god.
 jon 08 Oct 2010
In reply to Bret (rock god):

Exactly!
 Pekkie 08 Oct 2010
In reply to jon:
>>
> Actually Pete, I think the last (not... ) word should go to John Redhead:
> "No man, we're rock cats!"

Sorry to be pedantic, but it was Tom Jones (the scouser not the singer)

 MJ 08 Oct 2010
In reply to Pekkie:

To be doubly pedantic, the actual quote was "it's OK, we're experienced rock cats, man"

 Pekkie 08 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

When I started climbing back in the mid seventies there was a definite crossover from athletics. If you look at the photos of the time eg in Hard and Extreme Rock, there is a sudden and startling change from big woolly jumpers and breeches to athletics shorts and vests. Pete Livesey was a prime mover. He was an English Schools champion in athletics and brought the apparel and training methods with him. A lot of old timers, pint in one hand and Woodbine in the other, didn't like it. And to this day you get a reaction against it eg activists claiming (!) that they don't train and being photo'd on desperates in rolled up jeans.
silo 09 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran: What I find funny is when you here things like if dave was in the olympics he be a gold medalist.watching someone climbing can be like watching wall paperer dry!I hate the idea of climbing becoming totally respectable. all these climbing videos,films,mags,are contributing to make the "SPORT"of climbing mundane.Its like all these cooking programs as a result do more people cook? lets all get out there and do some baking.
 scooott 09 Oct 2010
In reply to silo:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) all these climbing videos,films,mags,are contributing to make the "SPORT"of climbing mundane.

How do magazines and videos make climbing more 'mundane'? I'm sure a lot of people are motivated and enjoy reading/ watching magazines and films.

Also, isn't that an ironic thing to post on a climbing forum?
silo 09 Oct 2010
In reply to scooott:yep I'm stuck in with the kids and it raining.
silo 09 Oct 2010
In reply to scooott:
> (In reply to silo)
> [...]
>
> How do magazines and videos make climbing more 'mundane'? I'm sure a lot of people are motivated and enjoy reading/ watching magazines and films.
>
> Also, isn't that an ironic thing to post on a climbing forum?

and I'm sure people who what cooking programs all start cooking
 jon 09 Oct 2010
In reply to Pekkie:

I think you're right - and did wonder even as I clicked on submit! (I tried to check Redhead quotes, but failed completely.) In fact the actual quote was more like "... experienced rock cats!" At that time Tom and Leigh McGinley always climbed together, so I wonder if JR was even there...!
John1923 09 Oct 2010
In reply to Serpico:
> (In reply to Alun)
>
> Worth posting again.
>
> ath·lete
> –noun
> a person trained or gifted in exercises or contests involving physical agility, stamina, or strength; a participant in a sport, exercise, or game requiring physical skill


The key word is contests. Climbing is not about competition

 gazhbo 09 Oct 2010
In reply to John1923:
> (In reply to Serpico)
> [...]
>
>
> The key word is contests. Climbing is not about competition

Course it is.
 @ndyM@rsh@ll 09 Oct 2010
In reply to John1923: Firstly, you are being incredibly selective, "exercises or contests" is the quote, if you're going to ignore part of it it's best to edit out the bit you're pretending doesn't exist. Secondly, climbing may not be about competition for you, for many people it is.
 petestack 09 Oct 2010
In reply to John1923:
> The key word is contests.

Not unless that's your only definition of athlete, whereas other legitimate definitions don't even mention contests.

 JIMBO 09 Oct 2010
I can't see the problem with calling some climbers athletes or some aspects of climbing sport.
Just like a knock about up the park with a football isn't sport and the participants aren't athletes - most climbers just participate in climbing as an activity. However when you start training and competing surely you are becoming more of an athlete and doing a sport.
My view is climbing in a proper competition is essentially applied gymnastics and to win world titles you need training like an athlete.
So no most of us are not athletes and most of us do not participate in a sport called climbing - however some do.
 JIMBO 09 Oct 2010
In reply to John1923:
> The key word is contests. Climbing is not about competition

unless it's a climbing competition
 petestack 09 Oct 2010
In reply to JIMBO:
> and most of us do not participate in a sport called climbing

Now let's define 'sport'... thread groundhog day!
 jon 09 Oct 2010
In reply to petestack:

OK Pete, (let's hope this quote is right and correctly attribited... ) 'Sport climbing is neither.' John Sherman.
 FreshSlate 09 Oct 2010
I'll stop calling runners athletes because running is a big enough sport in its own right not to be grouped together with all the others and I don't want them to think they're inferior.
 hexcentric 10 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmcNews/media/u_content/file/competitions/blcc_10_J...

p.5 for Robert's recent athletic endeavours.
OP Robert Durran 10 Oct 2010
In reply to hexcentric:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> http://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmcNews/media/u_content/file/competitions/blcc_10_J...
>
> p.5 for Robert's recent athletic endeavours.

It was actually surprisingly good fun and a good incentive to try REALLY hard indoors (it would look a bit silly grabbing a quick draw...)

By the way, who are you!!

OP Robert Durran 10 Oct 2010
In reply to FreshSlate:
> I'll stop calling runners athletes because running is a big enough sport in its own right not to be grouped together with all the others and I don't want them to think they're inferior.

With all the inverted snobbery stuff its getting a bit confusing! Not sure what your point is!

OP Robert Durran 10 Oct 2010
In reply to petestack:
> (In reply to John1923)
> [...]
>
> Not unless that's your only definition of athlete, whereas other legitimate definitions don't even mention contests.

I think all this definition debate is getting pointless. I thought it had already been established (and, as OP, conceded by me) that climbers could be correctly described as athletes. The real issue, as I originally intended, is whether it is pretentious to actually describe a climber as an athlete. I think it is; some agree, others disagree. Probably time to call it a day.....
 shouter 11 Oct 2010
In reply to Robert Durran:

'Ron Fawcett rock athlete'

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