UKC

Just talking to a friend about wiregates-v-screwgates, she only buys screws as she feels safety comes over weight and modern ones are much lighter than what she started on. Like I imagine most climbers I only have a few screws, and only really use them on belays. But it occurred to me, why do we use screws at all when autolocking krabs are available? Safer than screws, mere grams heavier, quicker and more convenient to use than screws (which I confess is my main reason for not using more, not the weight), why not more popular?
So I was wondering, who here uses them, and how much?

In reply to arctic_hobo: I only use autolocks with a belay device.if on a belay set up I prefer to use screw gates as I feel they are safer when put of sight.

In reply to arctic_hobo:
I don't own any auto-locks. Maybe I'm a technophobe but it seems to me that a krab that can be opened by a quarter turn of the sleeve is intrinsicly less safe than one that requires several turns. I've never heard of one opening inadvertently, say with the rope rubbing across the gate, but my attitude is why risk it on things like belays when a normal screwgate is available and is not significantly any more difficult to use?

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

- Wasn't there a bungee-jumper whose cord was connected with an auto-lock krab which 'opened inadvertantly'?

In reply to arctic_hobo: They are a ballache. Maybe they are ok after getting used to them but personally I've found them fiddly and annoying when I've been using other peoples ones. Also, if you happen to want to use them while climbing (say you run out of quickdraws or you want to clip a piece of pro with absolutely minimal extension) they are much harder to use than just using a screwgate with the screw always open.
Overall I don't really see any advantage of autolock crabs unless you are forgetful about doing up your screwgates (and that really isn't a reason to buy them) so I see no reason to buy them. New technology either has to have a point or look really sexy for me to be interested in it and autolocks are neither.

In reply to arctic_hobo: I've got a DMM three-way autolocking crab for my belay plate - I want that done up all the time so it makes sense to me. =o)

In reply to arctic_hobo:

I use them almost every day, which is why I use them, which is to say when you are constantly clipping on and off millions of times then the time saving begins to count and above all you know that your life critical abseil/shunt biner is definitely screwed up, so you don't have to keep checking.

And even more significant, I noticed that on very long abseil/shunt dangling sessions normal screwgates tend to unscrew themselves, if the screw is facing upwards, as a result of bouncing and swinging about on the rope. This can lead you to overtighten a normal screw biner (screwing it tight while under load) resulting in it jamming, which is yet another reason for autolock biners - they don't jam.

For any other uses they are an absolute pain, though, and I never use them in winter because they can get all clogged up with snow and mush.

In reply to arctic_hobo:

I think it come down to the the application really: if there the chance of cacthing the gate is high, autolock is probably not the way to go. (any the fear of this happening is proably one of the reasons that they haven't caught on). If the chance of "forgeting" to screw the gate closed is high, I'd go with Autolock.

Personally I only have one auto lock vs 4 screwgates, all of which I use to rig belays:

My screwgates each go onto a peice of gear, and the rope is looped back and clove hitched onto my HMS-autolock. I'm happy with this set up as:

If I forget to screw up a screw gate I always have a back up.

If I catch the auto gate, It's unlikely to come off my harness as it already loaded, but it the worst did happen, I'm still tied into the belay system with a figure 8 directly onto my harness, and there's no way my beefy HMS will fit though my screwgates.

In reply to arctic_hobo:

I'm interested in the debate. I've seen two different auto-lock designs. There is the twist lock ones (quicklock I think in DMM parlance) which are spring loaded and simply require twisting 90degrees to open. I've got one of these but rarely use it, it seems possible to have inadvertent opening quite easily.

The more secure looking design is the Locksafe (again DMM name) which needs lifting and then rotating. That seems a better bet and I'm tempted to get a few of those.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

ablackett may be along later to tell you about the time he was abesiling with one on his belay device, and looked down to find it had opened itself after rubbing over an edge. Not good...

In reply to arctic_hobo: have used them on a cows tail / lanyard before. But never near moving ropes, for the reason mention above when it could open it, this includes belaying.

In reply to arctic_hobo: I use auto locking screw gates as i got them for free! The type I have I find difficult to imagine accidentally opening, as you have to push then twist the barrel. Whether I would pay for auto locking over normal screwgates? I dont think so, but i do find that when using normal screwgates I can often forget to immediately scew them up (ultimately they are tightened as I always check then re check even on auto locking ones) but I believe there could be an argument for using one or the other exclusively if check check check is not your thing!!

In reply to another_mark:

I have found that the double action ones you prefer are really a major pain because you almost always need two hands to open them, while the simple rotation type can be used (with a little practice) one-handed.

In reply to arctic_hobo:

I started to use them when I started aid climbing as they are useful for jumaring where a normal screw may shake loose. The ones I have require two seperate actions to open (push up and then twist) and are pretty counterintuitve to use because you have to push the sleeve up rather than pull it down towards you - I think this is probably a good thing though am not 100% convinced. The ones I have are the DMM locksafe I think, rather than the other type they do (another poster mentioned them above).

I am still using standards screwies for belays and belay plates but I see no reason not to use them for such applications as the chances of it rubbing on the rock and performing these specific actions in the correct order seem very small, or at least as small as the chances of a screw on a screwgate coming undone.

There are other ones which only require one action to open (a slide or twist of the gate, can't remember which) and I wouldn't use these for belays or belaying as I can see that they could come undone much more easily by accident.

Indicentally, I have heard that they are useful for winter climbing as they offer the security of a screwgate (or do they? ) but they do not freeze up. I've not tried them for this yet though so don't have first-hand experience of this.

In reply to arctic_hobo:

absolute pain in the ass. i hate the way they need to be unlocked to do anything with them, that they instantly lock shut - usually when you need it least. terrible with cold hands.

i will give them creedence for rigging. only time the triple action ones have any use i can see.

but for the irritation factor i loathe them.

yes it gets to me.

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

Do you ever really find it essential to open a screwgate one handed though?

In reply to arctic_hobo:

I've got a large BD via ferrata autolock on a daisy chain. It is apparently totally unsuited for this purpose, but I find it ideal for the use to which I put it. The lock is just a trigger pull afair and much less secure than a regular screwgate, but I prefer it for a quick clip in with a daisy chain, wearing gloves on winter routes.

In reply to arctic_hobo: Have to agree, autolocks are generally awkward to use (especially opening with one hand), bulky and heavy for personal climbing use.

The one time when they actually are really useful is when if you are wanting to put a screwgate on a single high bolt with a clipstick. It can be nice to know the karabiner or quickdraw above you is essentially a 'screwed-up' screwgate.

In reply to Byronius Maximus:

Like someone said above, the biggest issue is probably when you need to use a screwgate on a route, when you've run out of quickdraws, or find that the sling you want off your harness is clipped on with a screwgate.

In reply to Aly: Yeah, fair point.

In reply to Derby Grit:

Yes, it was the guy who was killed doing a jump for the Noel Edmunds programme, Michael Lush or something like that.

I think they're a pain. The only times I've used them routinely have been when compelled to with industrial fall-arrest systems on broadcasting towers.

In reply to Andy Long:

Agreed. I used to use them in industry (comms rigging as it happens too), but for climbing? No way. Far too much of a PITA. Heavy, cumbersome and damn near impossible to use one handed (which makes actually clipping them on or off of anything decidedly awkward).

For the majority of situations people seem to think they might be a good idea (belays, first bolt on a sport route etc), I can't help but think this is major overkill anyway as more often than not simply using a snapgate (or a pair opposed) wouldn't be an issue anyway, so using a simple screwgate almost certainly would not be a safety issue!

If anyone wants any I have a string of them a friend of mine gave me because he didn't want them (for the same reasons I hate them!).

In reply to arctic_hobo:

I concur with the general irritation. A long time ago I did have a a couple of Clog ones that did seem to be fairly easy to use, but even then I only used them on belays.

In reply to arctic_hobo:

I used on until it opened on me when I was lowering off. It was kind of my fault, it was the first time I've used it to lower off, I usually only use it with my ATC and use a screw gate for lowering off. It happened as I was clipped into the rope being lowered down stripping the route and I had clipped the 2 bits of rope together with a quickdraw, the draw moved up the rope slightly and managed to open the gate on the auto-lock... never again!

In reply to arctic_hobo:

I know of at least one climbing wall that uses them for belaying with groups. The rational is that they cannot be left closed but not locked.

Personally, they make me nervous as they are far easier to 'snag' open than a screwgate.

This UIAA paper has some thoughts on the issue, many of which have been raised in this thread.

http://theuiaa.org/upload_area/files/1/Attaching_to_rope_by_karabiner.pdf

All the papers in this section are worth a read by the safety minded.

In reply to arctic_hobo:

I have a DMM Quicklock which I use on my cow-tail when climbing on bolts. I find it to be brilliant for this, being quick to use (and easily used one handed) and secure. I have also used it in belay set-ups on multi-pitch routes when leading every pitch and thus needing an extra couple of 'locking' carabiners. Never had any problems with it, and with care don't think I will encounter any.

However, whilst quite new to trad climbing I used it to attach myself to a bight in in the middle of a half rope (only rope we had), big-mistake! Whilst leading the second pitch of Visions of Joanna at Bossi I heard the twisting sleave slide open and snap back shut as it caught on rock. That was probably my hardest lead at the time and that moment when I looked down at my harness, praying I was still attcached to the rope, is not one I will forget!

In reply to arctic_hobo:

So it looks like folk would use them more if they were as safe as they appear, ie that they lock automatically and stay that way. Only a few complaining about difficulty of opening (I can't undo a screwgate with one hand anyway!). So the day that an autolock with thumbprint ID is invented, we're in business
I've never owned an autolock, but from some of these stories, I'm not sure it's worth the money and weight. Care will ensure a screwgate is shut anyway.
I suppose there are a million stories of undone screwgate deaths too, but it does seems like autolocks are an imperfect solution at best.
With regard to the bungee jumping death - don't they have backups??? Seems very unsafe, climbers try to avoid falls, but bungee jumpers do it deliberately! One failure = death is not funny! Also, climbers are tied on to their rope, not clipped - fewer points of failure and all that.

In reply to Byronius Maximus:

Yes, frequently.
Hanging by one arm from an ice axe while setting up a belay, just for example.

In reply to Byronius Maximus:
>, I have heard that they are useful for winter climbing

My experience is that they rapidly become big frozen solid blobs - absolutely useless

In reply to arctic_hobo: seen too many slightly old sticky ones, at least with an open screwgate it will be cos I forgot to do it rather than just took it for granted that it had closed properly

i know that sounds silly. i could just check the autolock, but i know i wont

In reply to arctic_hobo: Locksafe are horrid, they look bad i mean i dont want to be going up a climb and look down and think wow this is soo last season!

In reply to lrandall:

I'm curious, why were you leading whilst attached with a krab at all, it is generally considered a fairly bad idea to risk the krab rotating and cross loading the gate should you fall, when I've led trad on a doubled up single (about 10mm) I've just tied in with a humungous rethreaded figure of eight.

In reply to EddInaBox:
...I've just tied in with a humungous rethreaded figure of eight...

i know its not the point, but you couldve just larks footed it by stepping thru the loop

back to biners

In reply to lrandall:


Surely there should never be a situation where you dont trust how you are tied in! just stupid

In reply to C-nunez:

He did trust how he was tied in, it's just that he discovered his trust was misplaced at an inopportune moment.

In reply to ice.solo:

I wanted a rope loop to attach/belay from, but I might try a bowline on a bight if I'm in the situation again.

In reply to EddInaBox: i dont think i could climb if it could be misplaced is what im saying

In reply to C-nunez:

You had better stop climbing then, you trust that you will tie in safely, that your gear is up to the job and has been placed well enough to hold, that your rope won't get loaded over a sharp edge, that a rock won't fall on you, that Richard Hammond isn't going to get fed up of pushing that shopping trolley and shove it over the top of the cliff you're on, that your car with you inside it isn't going to be turned into a pancake whilst travelling to the crag, because some trucker hauling a consignment of teapots dozes off behind the wheel of his juggernaut. Some of these scenarios are less likely than others but any one or more of them could happen to you, if you contend they couldn't you are simply too trusting.

In reply to EddInaBox: Ye fair enough but id rather take out as many as i can.. say tieing in safely

In reply to EddInaBox:

Was climbing with someone who was much more experienced then me. Up til that route we had been leading on a single half as a single, but starting up the first (crux) pitch of 'Visions' the guy I was climbing with wanted to fold the rope, I asked about attaching to the bight and he said to clip a screwgate thru my leg loops and waistbelt so the biner was aligned with the belay loop and clip into an alpine butterfly. I was stupid and grabbed the quicklock, and didn't even think about it when I started to lead through onto the second pitch.

Was thoughtless and dangerous on my part and I'm very glad Mat didn't just tell me to clip straight into the belay loop because if I had the chances of my loosing the rope would've been much higher. I have no beef with people calling this stupidity on my part, it was. As you can imagine I went home and researched about attaching to a bight that evening!

In reply to arctic_hobo: I was using a DMM Boa (push, twist, open) to abseil and as my legs swung under an overhang the gate rubbed against the rock then my legs swung around and the gate twisted then the gate had pressure against the corner and opened.

Ended up 10m above the ground with the gate wide open, got it closed before the rope came out, but could have been curtains if I hadn't.

2 lessons learnt - always back up with a prussick, even if no risk of rock fall and never use an auto lock carabiner if there is any chance of it rubbing against the rock.

In reply to EddInaBox:


As teapots are one of the most important items in life, along with tea bags, the lorry would have a co-driver with dual controls and the driver would be rigged to an anti-doze alarm. So the likelihood of this happening would be less than the end of the world

In reply to Gavin Taylor:

Fair enough. I don't do all that much winter climbing (or at least not anything hard enough to require me to do such things!), but when I'm in this situation on rock I usually just clip in to my first anchor with a quickdraw so I can relax and set up the rest of the belay.