UKC

A new guide book to the Blue Mountains has been published recently by Simon Carter's Onsight Photography. Although local developers have clearly expressed their disapproval of publication of certain new cliffs, the editor has published this information. Simon Carter has never bolted a route himself, nor has he ever participated in developing new areas in any other way. He is purely commercially driven, and he refuses to support local cliff maintenance and development from the proceeds of this guide book. Where information about new routes or crags was withheld, Simon Carter invented route names and other details himself, often deriding the climbers who had bolted, cleaned and developed these crags.

Simon Carter's flag-ship product is his climbing calendar.

We therefore ask anyone shopping for climbing calendars this year, please consider buying from a different source. Please do NOT support Simon Carter until he reconsiders his approach with regards to his local crags.

In reply to crank_n_up:

You might want to put your real name on the bottom of this youth.

In reply to crank_n_up:

A number of questions/points:

1. Do you have any references or further reading so that anyone can look into this further and gain a balanced view before simply making a judgement based on one post?

2. You are attempting to affect someone commercially based on your views on their activity - this carries inherent responsibility as it could be considered to be libelous - please ensure that if you wish to progress this that you have your facts straight.

M

In reply to Rampikino: here's a thread on Chockstone that provides some background. http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=1...

In reply to jon bassindale:

Cheers bud.

In reply to crank_n_up:

Interesting read - and I'm not seeing much support on that thread.

What do the original climbers who put up the routes actually want?

In reply to crank_n_up:

Oh p1ss off. I mean, ffs, your mates don't own the crag, the author is writing an area guide.

Comes across as a completely precious hissy fit. Grow up.

In reply to jon bassindale:

That provides a slightly more balanced view of the affair. Not sure I see anything there that justifies a boycott. If people choose to bolt publicly accessed crags and then moan because a guidebook writer documents the lines without recompensing them, that's up to them, but I can't see what the author has done wrong here.

In reply to crank_n_up:

Having spent money myself to put up new bolted routes in New Zealand, I can honestly say that the pleasure comes from doing the route and then handing it over to the climbing community.

On my last trip to New Zealand I spent a full day cleaning a line and then getting it bolted. I did the first ascent the next day. Part of the cleaning was actually to improve access to the base of the crag, cutting some steps etc.

Now, following all of this do I want money? Do I want something other than the simple recognition in the latest guide book? Absolutely not. There has to be a point where you walk away, job done, and let it go knowing that you have left something good in place.

In reply to crank_n_up:
Just adding my say to the chorus of disagreement with this post.

From reading the Chockstone thread that was linked above it's pretty clear that there's absolutely no justification to boycott Simon Carter in any way and actually I'm pretty tempted to go out and buy one of his calendars just in case someone sees this idiotic post and takes it seriously!

In reply to Luke90:
'actually I'm pretty tempted to go out and buy one of his calendars just in case someone sees this idiotic post and takes it seriously!'

Even if the OP is Simon Carter?

In reply to Paddy Duncan:
I like your thinking! The chockstone thread seems like a little too much work for one devious marketing genius though!

In reply to crank_n_up:

I hear that Joe Brown is still in litigation with the, amongst others, the Climbers Club, Ron James and the estate of the late Paul Williams over rights to Cenotaph Corner. He won't confirm where it goes until they pay him for the pegs he placed in 1952.

In reply to crank_n_up: As has been noted already on Chockstone, the cliff is public and just because your mates found it does not give them ownership of the cliff or any of the routes on it. Nice bit of free publicity for both the guide and the calendar though! Simon should be sending the cheque around soon.

In reply to crank_n_up:

That's a good looking calendar. Thanks for pointing it out to me - I will keep an eye out for it.

In reply to crank_n_up:
Simon Carter has never bolted a route himself, nor has he ever participated in developing new areas in any other way. He is purely commercially driven, and he refuses to support local cliff maintenance and development from the proceeds of this guide book.

From 'Chockstone Forum':
"He puts back in many ways. I've seen him at plenty of TrackCare days, swinging a pick, humping rocks..there's no glory there, and I've never seen your friends there. He's donated both equipment and packs...AND money!! Proceeds from this next guidebook will be going directly to trackcare and rebolting and, quite frankly, I don't think you can ask for more".

Did the thread on Chockstone not make you realise you probably wouldn't get much support here either? It's a bit damning when you come on here making libelous (sp?) accusations and trying to ruin a guy's reputation and business. All because your mates didn't get paid for bolting a new crag! I was always led to believe new routing was done for the kudos of climbing something no-one else has and the thrill of getting a 'FA' next to your name in a guidebook, which I believe Simon offered to do.
If your mates want more than this they'll lose out on both accounts as no-one's going to pay them and it seems they'll also miss out on having their names in the guide book too.

We've been looking for a new calendar for 2011. Think Simon Carter's would look great on our wall.

In reply to crank_n_up:

It would make it eaier for me and other posters to boycott Simon's calendar if you could post a link to an online ordering form.

In reply to TMM:

The OP has no profile and this is their only post.

Given the rather easy way his/her argument begins to crumble with any kind of investigation I would suggest that we are not likely to see too much from crank_n_up in future.

In reply to TMM:

Here you go: http://www.onsight.com.au/shop/world-climbing-calendar-2011-p-261.html

In reply to davidbeynon:

Thank god!

In reply to davidbeynon:

Thanks for that, it will look great next to my Countryfile one.

In reply to crank_n_up:
Having had a quick scan of the threads elsewhere, I fail to see what all the fuss is about. A guidebook author has asked some chaps eho have "developed" a public crag what their routes names etc are, and they refused to tell him. So he will put in his own descriptions, much to their chagrin. There's some malarkey about "under their terms"- and yet no-ne has clarified those terms except to say that the mates who bolted the routes don't want money. What do they want, then?
What a lot of fuss about nowt.

Sx

In reply to crank_n_up:

I've reviewed the 163-long post on the Chockstone Forum as this has intruiged me. It seems to go back to May.

From what I can gather, the key elements are:


1. The OP and friends bolted a new crag that is public access. In doing so they have become very attached to it and have spent a good deal of money on bolts as well as time and effort to open it up.

2. A guidebook writer wants to include it in a new publication.

3. The OP and friends are feeling aggrieved that someone can just come along and include the climbing info without having done any work towards the development of the crag.

What I see (especially from the posts on Chockstone) is a failure of the OP to emotionally disconnect from the work they have done and to do what 99% of other people do when putting up new routes i.e. letting the climbing community as a whole have the relevant information so the routes can be climbed. The OP has clung onto his/her project and has become offended (and very insulting) about a perceived threat or loss which is intangible.

What is also clear is that the OP, despite what they may say in some posts, clearly wants a monetary reward from the guide - paying for bolts or something from the profits to go towards crag upkeep. I don't know anyone else who makes such claims from new guidebook writers. “As for my own small bolting efforts, I will not contribute the information for free; and I ask that you do not include my new routes into the new guide book unless you comply with my request.” This is an example from the OP.

Also, it is very clear from the posts that the OP has a personal grudge against Simon Carter (a historical one) and that they used to work together on climbing guides but it is a relationship gone sour. This has to taint the view of the OP which at best is misguided and at worst is libelous.

Some of the posts are quite interesting, the whole topic just goes to add weight to the old warning of not making a judgement on first impressions.

Incidentally, one post read:

"All this nonsense reminds of something similar in the UK many years ago when a climber who was sponsored by a big company started doing new routes that incorporated the name of his sponsor. "

Can anyone shed light on this?

In reply to all:

I'm closing this thread. Can the person started the thread contact me to discuss please.

Alan