/ VS Rock ...UK's top 80 routes.

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
The Ivanator - on 12 Nov 2010
OK, so Classic Rock concentrates on great routes below VS (yes, I know a few VS routes sneak in ...mostly upgrades). Hard Rock deals with the best of HVS to E2ish. So the missing link appears to be VS, Classic Rock contains around 80 routes, so to compile a similar volume for VS climbing I welcome your nominations for the UK's 80 best at VS.
To get the ball rolling a few I've done that I rate are:
Eliminate A (Dow)
F Route (Gimmer)
Direct Route (Dinas Mot)
Scavenger (3 Cliffs)
Armorican (Craig Caerfai)
Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle)
Lost Horizon (Baggy Point)
I can think of plenty more that should probably be in there but I don't want to go nominating stuff I've not done so I'll hand over to the wisdom of UKC...
lps - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
a few more...

grim wall (tremadog)
the rap (gogarth)
nozag (castle naze)
little brown jug (bosigran)
TMM - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I'll be the first to nominate

Albion (Lundy)
Shamrock (Lundy)
Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh)

and to a lesser extent a soft spot for Leviathan (The Dewerstone)
Pagan - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to Bret (rock god):

> the rap (gogarth)

Why do people insist on sticking a 'the' at the start of this route? It's just 'Rap'.

Some more:

Haste Not (White Gill)
Green Slab (Gogarth)
Wreckers Slab (Cornakey)
petestack - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
Shangri-la (Sron na Ciche)
Chris Perry - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to petestack:

One step in the clouds
Scratch

Both at tremadog
David Rose - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Doom at Craig Cwyarch should be on any list. Grey Slab, Cwm Idwal. Great-Bow Slab, Cloggy. Curving Crack, also Cloggy. Astrid and Silhouette Arete, Swanage. Mississippi Buttress Direct and Hargreaves Original, Stanage. Botterill's Slab, Scafell.
tasmat - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Merlin, at Tremadog.
lps - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to Pagan:
> (In reply to Bret (rock god))
>
> [...]
>
> Why do people insist on sticking a 'the' at the start of this route? It's just 'Rap'.
>


I don't insist on it. Just to prove I don't

Rap (Gogarth)

But I do insist on saying peaks instead of peak. Peak just sounds silly.
jezb1 - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Some nice ones mentioned.

I'll add:
Shadow Wall, Careg Wastad
Lighthouse Arete Direct, Gogarth
Will Hunt - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Diocese - Chair Ladder
The Snark - Marsco
Overhanging Bastion - Castle Rock
Botterill's Slab - Scafell
Innominate Crack - Kern Knotts
South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor
Pram Pusher's Paradise - Almscliff

The others that are mentioned are all good suggestions of those I've done.
petestack - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to tasmat:

Four routes at Tremadog so far (out of a proposed 80 for the whole UK)... is it really that good? And where's everyone who goes climbing in Scotland?
petestack - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to Will Hunt:
> The Snark - Marsco
> South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor

OK, good to see the Scottish routes starting to come in, but shouldn't SRD be barred (despite grade) for appearing in Hard Rock?
David Hooper - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

During the 80's there was a plan to produce a "VS Rock" in the series.

Dave Alcock was distributing a list of "wanted" photos for the publication around Llanberis. Sadly it never seemed to see the light of day.
SCrossley on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Over Hanging Bastion
Eliminate A
Jean Jeanie
Rap
Spartan Slab
F route
Boterrils Slab
Phantom Rib
The Crack (gimmer)
Central Crack (brant rake)
Cheers sjc
sjminfife - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Pain Pillar,Aberdour.
Mississipi Butress Direct,Stanage
Sunset Slab,Froggart
Pobble,Aberdeen Sea Cliffs
sjm
sjminfife - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Proud Corner,Glen Clova
sjm
LakesWinter on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Spartan Slab (Etive)
The Crack (Gimmer, but already in hard Rock)
Misty Wall (Kinder)
Froth and Golden Gate (Stoney)
gg4419 - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Piton Route (Avon Gorge)
Anvil Chorus (Bosigran)

Again,

Diocese (Chair Ladder)
Little Brown Jug (Bosigran)
sjminfife - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
The Edge,Loudon Hill
sjm
ads.ukclimbing.com
Leelogs - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Aero (Crickmail Point, Pembroke)
Blue Sky (Saddle Head, Pembroke)
Top Sail (Birchen Edge) - on recommendation, I haven't done it.
Gargoyle Flake (Bamford Edge) - not done it yet, but is it top 80?
Valkyrie (The Roaches) - again not done it yet but top 80?
sjminfife - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Climbers Club Direct,The Dewarstone
Sauls Crack,The Roaches
sjm
SCrossley on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to Leelogs:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> Gargoyle Flake (Bamford Edge) - not done it yet, but is it top 80?

No, posers route, 2* at best.

Reds - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to Leelogs: I wasn't impressed with Topsail I'm afraid. I'd put in High Neb Buttress
sjminfife - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to Reds:
I'll 2nd High Neb Buttress
sjm
petestack - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to sjminfife:
> Proud Corner,Glen Clova

Oh yes, absolutely! Now, come on Scots, how about those Cairngorm classics (you know the ones and, yes, I know Clean Sweep's in Classic Rock) I can't recommend myself because I haven't done them yet?

sjminfife - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to petestack: I've not done many myself or I'd be putting them in thus all the "Central Belt" cragging stuff that I can vouch for.I know the names Black Mamba,Mousetrap etc They've been on the list too long thus the present diet and hope for next summer.
sjm
sjminfife - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to sjminfife:
And Red Slab on Rannoch Wall,it was on this years list but events overtook me.I think the picture in the chippie opposite "The Green Welly Stop" is brilliant.
sjm
Paul Bennett - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)
petestack - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to sjminfife:

Wonder if we can do 'cragging days' where a group of several short routes seems more justified than any one on its own? If so, I'm going for a 'best of Polldubh' day (= Damnation, Resurrection, Phantom Slab etc.) to be nominated as a single choice!
220bpm on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
The Twist
The Citadel
Black Mamba
Monar Magic
Ravens Edge
Crows Nest Crack
Fallout Corner
Butterknife
Sword of Gideon
The Long Climb
Fionn Buttress
South Ridge Direct
Wither, Wether
Mousetrap
Djibangi
Spartan Slab
Pobble
Excalibur
The Chasm
The Clean Sweep
Original Route - Old Man of Stoer
Phantom Slab
Integrity
Dawn Grooves
petestack - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to 220bpm:

Know some of these are already in Classic/Hard Rock and Excalibur's HVS if it's the one I'm thinking of, but still wish UKC would let me post just the smiley!

:-)
sjminfife - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to petestack:
> (In reply to sjminfife)
>
> Wonder if we can do 'cragging days' where a group of several short routes seems more justified than any one on its own?

Seems totally consistent with the previous books. On grit you can pick a selection that give a bold slab,a jamming crack and a groov, Sunset Slab,Hawks Nest Crack and Jankers Groove
sjm
sjminfife - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to petestack: Sauls Crack is HVS nowadays but it was VS whenI lead it.
sjm
sjminfife - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to 220bpm: Definitely Fallout Corner,the rest are still on the "To do" list unfortunately.
sjm
Gordon Stainforth - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

The real greats mentioned so far are:

Eliminate A
F Route
Little Brown Jug
Nozag
Haste Not
Great/Bow
Diocese
Overhanging Bastion
Sabre Cut

I wouldn't mention:

One Step in the Clouds
Scratch
Merlin - unless you mean the fabulous 'low in the grade' HVS: Merlin Direct
Shadow Wall a bit borderline for quality compared with e.g Ribstone Crack
Phantom Rib - great last pitch, but a bit disjointed
Golden Gate, Stoney - lots of character but a bit scruffy, really
Piton Route - an old polished Hard Severe that is really very undistinguished except for the best bit of the second pitch. A two-star route at the very most.
Top Sail. No way for such a short climb
Ditto Gargoyle Flake.
Aero. Two star, but not particularly distinguished.
Wilbur - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Yes =
Valkyrie (roaches)
phantom rib (grochan)
kirkus route (ogof)

no =
one step in the clouds - dull and unmemorable. Trem miles better at hvs.
Seamstress - I've got a ladder at home thanks
gg4419 - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
pec on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Some contenders not mentioned yet:
Lavaredo Wall, Carreg Alltrem
Eve, Shepherd's Crag (best if run into a single pitch)
Innominate Crack, Kern Knotts, Great Gable
Harijan, Trowbarrow (less famous than Jean Genie but just as good)
Mississipi Buttress Direct, Stanage
Inverted V, Stanage
Via Dolorosa, The Roaches
Golden Yardstick, Wildcat Crags
The Long Climb, Ben Nevis
James Oswald - on 12 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Altar crack - Rivelin
ads.ukclimbing.com
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: So far those with more than one mention and not in Classic or Hard Rock (as far as I know ...I only own Classic) are:
Eliminate A
F Route
Silhouette Arete
Rap
Nozag
Little Brown Jug
Haste Not
Spartan Slab
Great/Bow Slab
Mississippi Buttress Direct
Botterill's Slab
Diocese
Overhanging Bastion
Innominate Crack
Phantom Rib
Pobble
Proud Corner
Valkyrie (Roaches)
High Neb Buttress
Black Mamba
Mousetrap
Sabre Cut
Fallout Corner
23 routes in all ...so feel free to champion not yet mentioned routes or second previous suggestions. I know someone out there wants to back me on Armorican!
allysingo - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
I'll back you on Armorican although on ukc it's hvs
and I think Jean Jeanie has to be on your list
petestack - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Phantom Slab at Polldubh has also had two (counting my 'cragging day'), although I'd struggle to equate such a short route (multi-pitch, but only just and basically known for its superb top pitch) to the great mountain routes on its own... and some of the others are surely still heading for multiple mentions!
alan moore - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Diamond Solitaire, lundy
Freedom, wintours
Wrecker's Slab
Tower face, Laddow
Fool's Paradise, Borrowdale
Tiger Wall, bowden
Lorainne
Tacitation, Kyloe
Osiris, gower (10 times more memorable than Scavenger)
Blankist, arran (not really HVS)
Hiccup, Bauchallie
Scabbard
Old man o Stoer
erm...
West's Route, bareholme crag
Al Evans on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Bret (rock god):
> (In reply to Pagan)
> [...]
>
>
> I don't insist on it. Just to prove I don't
>
> Rap (Gogarth)
>
> But I do insist on saying peaks instead of peak. Peak just sounds silly.

So you want to rename it The Peaks District?
Al Evans on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Mousetrap is not VS!
petestack - on 13 Nov 2010
Doug on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Al Evans: Yes it is!
(at least the one on Creag an Dubh Loch is VS)
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to gg4419:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)

Agreed. Definitely should be on the list.
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to pec:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> Some contenders not mentioned yet:
> Lavaredo Wall, Carreg Alltrem
> Eve, Shepherd's Crag (best if run into a single pitch)
> Innominate Crack, Kern Knotts, Great Gable
> Harijan, Trowbarrow (less famous than Jean Genie but just as good)
> Mississipi Buttress Direct, Stanage
> Inverted V, Stanage
> Via Dolorosa, The Roaches
> Golden Yardstick, Wildcat Crags
> The Long Climb, Ben Nevis

Every single one of those is not quite great enough for the top 80, except possibly The Long Climb (which I haven't done). Perhaps Lavaredo ... though I only really remember the top pitch.

AJM - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I think my contenders would be
Albion and Diamond Solitaire - Lundy
Diocese - Chair Ladder
Lost Horizon - Baggy Point - you could maybe say Kinky Boots for that start, but overall I'd go for this one
Mur y Niwl - Craig yr Ysfa - probably one of the best I've done, outstanding
Grooved Arete - Rannoch Wall - very nice if you run the two main pitches together, an excellent pitch

Many others I could have suggested, but those will do.....

AJM
Pursued by a bear - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Coming a little late to this, so apologies if the following points have been made or climbs mentioned.

Classic/Hard rock, both of which touch on or cover this ground, contain a spread of routes. So in that spirit, routes that cover the spectrum of VS, from tough hard severe to easy HVS, should probably be covered. Routes included in another book are naturally excluded, so no Topsail, Via Dolorosa, Long climb, Grey slab in Ogwen, Piton route, The Crack at Gimmer, Great/Bow combination at Cloggy or South Ridge Direct on Arran or Via Dolorosa amongst others, and occasionally two or three routes get included in a single chapter; only now and again though, so it's no excuse for lily-livered indecision when making a choice.

With all that said:

Chair Ladder: South Face Direct

Bosigran: Little Brown Jug

Avon: Giant's Cave Buttress and Unknown Wall

Wintour's Leap: Zelda and Cheetah

Wyndcliffe: Cadillac and Questor

Pembroke (Flimston Bay): Bow-shaped slab

Pembroke (Saddle head): Blue Sky

Craig Cywarch (mid Wales): Acheron

Tremadog: Scratch Arete

Cloggy: Longland's climb

Clogwyn Y Wenallt: Oxine

Dinas Mot: Direct Route

Dinas Cromlech: Dives/Better things

Tryfan: Munich Climb/Belle Vue Bastion

Craig Yr Ysfa: Mur Y Niwl/Pinnacle Wall

Dow Crag: Eliminate A

Gimmer Crag: North west arete/F route

Castle rock: Overhanging Bastion

Scafell: Botterill's slab

Eagle Crag, Buttermere: Eagle Front

Shepherd's Crag: Adam/Ardus

... and there are lots more (I haven't started on the Peak yet) but other things call. Good thread though, with memories to relive and choices to make.

T.
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to alan moore:

Another vote for Tower Face, Laddow and Osiris, Gower.
Fool's Paradise, surely too scruffy/dirty ?

I'm tempted to say that Moss Ghyll Grooves should be in if we call it Mild VS (whereas many would argue it's Hard Severe). It certainly has few equals at its standard.

Other very strong contenders:
Moss Ledge Direct (Scafell Pinnacle)
North-West Climb (Pillar)
Belle Vue Bastion (Tryfan)
Piggott's (Cloggy)

Al Evans on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Doug:
> (In reply to Al Evans) Yes it is!
> (at least the one on Creag an Dubh Loch is VS)

Sorry, I was obviously thinking of the Gogarth version.
Rog Wilko on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I may have missed it, but has anyone mentioned Mickledore Grooves? Or Adam (better than Eve). Another vote from me for:
South Face Direct,
Diocese
Anvil Chorus
Lost Horizons
Osiris
Direct (the Mot)
Eagle Front
Proud Corner
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to petestack:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
> [...]
>
> But, Gordon, that's your opinion which, with your earlier attempt to sum up 'The real greats mentioned so far' (ruling out all the Scottish routes up to that point despite some acknowledged mega-classics suggested), puts you in danger of becoming the self-appointed thread judge of everyone else's opinion?

Oh, dear. I didn't mean that at all. Of course that was only my opinion re. some of the routes I've done. What we're surely aiming for is a UKC consensus. And of course there should be several dozen Scottish VSs added, of which I can be no judge at all, having done v. few.

pec on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to pec)
> [...]
>
> Every single one of those is not quite great enough for the top 80, except possibly The Long Climb (which I haven't done). Perhaps Lavaredo ... though I only really remember the top pitch.

That, as someone else has already pointed out is a matter of opinion.

I didn't mention any routes already proposed, many of which I would include in my own top 80 and are better than some I did propose.
I was also trying to strike a balance, there didn't appear to have been any suggestions for a VS on Peak limestone (that I had noticed anyway), hence my Golden Yardstick suggestion. There was nothing on The Ben and given the sheer number of classics on Stanage there had only been one proposal there.

If I could correct myself however, when I said Eve (in one pitch) I meant Adam, The ropework required to do Eve in one pitch would be more hassle than it was worth. Eve is in itself however, still a worthy contender.



petestack - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to petestack)
> Oh, dear. I didn't mean that at all.

Oops, just deleted that post before seeing your reply because I thought it might read stronger than intended. So, yes, of course consensus is good and discussion is necessary to achieve it, and I guess how much we participate, 'vet' others' choices or question such vetting is ultimately a matter of personal choice! :-)
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to petestack:

Ditto. Just deleted my reply :)
petestack - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to petestack:

PS I'm going back to just reading this thread... don't normally post to these 'best of' ones and maybe you can see why!
NorthernRock - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

The Mall, Millstone.
Three Pebble Slab, Froggat ;-)
inverted V, Stanage
Central Climb, Almscliff, it always seems harder than it should!
Tophet Wall, come to think of it, that's in classic rock?!?

must be something at Stoney, even if you have to do it in ice skates!
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Update. Those now with more than one nomination are (and not in Classic/Hard as far as I know are):

Lake District and NW:
• Eliminate A (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer)
• Haste Not (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab (Scafell)
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock)
• Innominate Crack (Kern Knotts)
• Jean Jeanie (Trowbarrow)

South West:
• Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle)
• Little Brown Jug (Bosigran)
• Diocese (Bosigran)
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff)
• Lost Horizon (Baggy Point)
• Albion (Lundy)
• South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
• Diamond Solitaire (Lundy)

North Wales:
• Rap (Gogarth)
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)
• Direct Route (Dinas Mot)
• Mur y Niwl/Pinnacle Wall (Craig Yr Ysfa)
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan)
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan)

Peak District:
• Nozag (Castle Naze)
• Mississippi Buttress Direct (Stanage)
• Valkyrie (Roaches)
• High Neb Buttress (Stanage)
• Tower Face (Laddow)

Scotland:
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer)
• The Pobble (Souter Head)
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova)
• Black Mamba (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain)
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh)
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)

South Wales:
• Osiris (Gower)
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head)
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai)

37 routes in total so far, almost halfway to the magic 80.

Will Hunt - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to NorthernRock: Tophet Wall's HS innit. Albeit nails at the grade.

Surprised to see no mention of Great Eastern Route yet. Probably my most anticipated VS at the moment.
pec on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Update. Those now with more than one nomination are (and not in Classic/Hard as far as I know are):
.......
> 37 routes in total so far, almost halfway to the magic 80.

There's nothing on Peak limestone yet, nor anything in Yorkshire whether gritsone or limestone.
There must also be some classics in Lancashire, NY Moors, Northumberland or elsewhere.
Naturally these areas will tend to get fewer votes as fewer people climb there but for the sake of balance something should be included.

How about Walewska at Ilkley (that would include a quarried grit climb) but there must be others, numerous VS's have 3 stars at Brimham but I've not done enough there to judge.
Leucocyte Right Hand at Wilton One is also superb, so good I climbed twice in the same evening and another quarried grit climb.

How about Nightw*tch at Whitestone Cliffe on the NY Moors, it was once reckoned to be the best limestone severe in Yorkshire, I don't suppose its got any worse since it was upgraded?

Will Hunt - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to pec:
I reckon you can see better VSs from the top out of Walewska. And they aren't on the same crag!

I reckon the real quality in Northumberland is generally to be found in the harder grades. The nature of the rock there tends to mean the best natural lines are quite hard/bold/both.

That said maybe Scorpion fits the bill but its just a bit too short lived to stand up to the likes of some of the single pitch routes mentioned here.
JDal - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to pec:
..> There must also be some classics in Lancashire, NY Moors, Northumberland or elsewhere.
..
It's a dodgy gade in Northumberland, but my picks would be:
The *** ones on Crag Lough/Peel are a bit "one move wondery", so on the sandstone:
Lorraine, Tigers Wall, Tacitation, Rothley Crack, Marcher Lord

Of these I reckon Marcher Lord (Berryhill) and Tacitation (Kyloe) are the two stand out ones.
thomm - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
A few possible (maybe not quite so good) additions if you need to pad out the list. Not sure if they are in the other books.
Bachelor's Climb (Hen Cloud)
Nea (Clogwyn y Grochan)
Brant (Clogwyn y Grochan)
Western Slabs (Dinas Mot)
Surely some on the Buachaille, but I haven't climbed them yet :(
victim of mathematics - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

OK, in keeping with the original series' conception of including a selection of routes to give a flavour of climbing in the UK at that grade, rather than just the best routes in the country:

South West:
Lost Horizons - Baggy Point
Leviathan - The Dewerstone
Albion - Lundy (the first pitch of Roadrunner is better, but abseiling off after one pitch isn't really what it's all about)
Inkerman Groove - Chudleigh
Diocese - Chair Ladder
Little Brown Jug - Bosigran
Giant's Cave Buttress - Avon Gorge

South Wales:
Armorican - Craig Caerfai
Blue Sky - Saddle Head
Toil And Trouble - The Cauldron (why the hell not, it's ace)
Bucket Wall - Juggy Point

North Wales:
Green Slab - Gogarth
Tension - Holyhead Mountain
Phantom Rib - Clogwyn Y Grochan
Plumbline - Tremadog
Shadow Wall - Carreg Wasted

The Peak/Yorkshire:
Golden Yardstick - Wildcat
Mississippi Buttress Direct - Stanage
The File - Higgar Tor
The Mall - Millstone
Frankland's Green Crack - Almscliff
Pillar Rib - Eastby

The Lake District:
Eagle Front - Eagle Crag
Haste Not - White Ghyll
Adam - Shepherd's Crag
Botteril's Slab - Scafell

The North West:
Jean Jeanie - Trowbarrow
Flake Crack - Helsby
Christeena - Wilton 1
Metamorphosis - Anglezarke

Distant Lands:
Original Route - Old Man Of Stoer
The Fence - Fairhead
Prore- Coire An Lochain
Black Pig - Reiff
Hairy Mary - Suidhe Biorach

I've not yet done Eliminate A, North West Arete, Fionn Buttress, Oxine, Lavaredo Wall, anything on the Gower or loads of stuff in Scotland and it would be nice to have some representation from the North York Moors and Northumberland (The Nightw*tch, Pinnacle Face and some sandstoney stuff perhaps?) and maybe even than shiny limestone nonsense in the Wye Valley :)
victim of mathematics - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to JDal:

> It's a dodgy gade in Northumberland, but my picks would be:
> The *** ones on Crag Lough/Peel are a bit "one move wondery", so on the sandstone:
> Lorraine, Tigers Wall, Tacitation, Rothley Crack, Marcher Lord

But Lorraine, Tiger's Wall and Tactication are all impossibly hard (and probably HVS). I thought Marcher Lord actually was HVS, but I could be wrong, and I've never heard of Rothley Crack (but I bet it's a sandbag).

It does feel like there ought to be one in there though.

JDal - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
No way is Tacitation HVS, bouldery start then a straightforward well protected VS romp. Marcher Lord is VS 5a, well protected. Rothley Crack is 35 feet of vertical crack climbing which is only a problem if you can't climb cracks, however it isn't really typical Northumberland.

I tend to agree about the controversy over grades of the other two though, which is why I dismissed them. People seem to fnd one or the other or both wildly undergraded. I find Lorraine tough HVS and Tigers Wall straight VS. I have a mate who has it the other way round.
Al Evans on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to NorthernRock:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> must be something at Stoney, even if you have to do it in ice skates!

I still think Aurora is a classic, just for line, history and exposure.
gribble - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Good lord. Only one metion of Bachelors Climb at Hen Cloud so far. That's not top 80, it's easily top ten. There's also Phoenix Climb at Shining Clough which I believe is worth a mention.
aln - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Would a vote for Trundle at Auchinstarry Quarry be taking the p*ss?
Definately Sword of Gideon, and Shallow Chimney at Mid Clyth is the best single pitch VS I've ever climbed.
Will Hunt - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to JDal)
>
> [...]
>
> But Lorraine, Tiger's Wall and Tactication are all impossibly hard (and probably HVS). I thought Marcher Lord actually was HVS, but I could be wrong, and I've never heard of Rothley Crack (but I bet it's a sandbag).


<Looks at profile>
<Notes location as Sheffield>
That explains that then.

:-)
lrandall - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Wrecker's Slab deserves to be in the SW list to contrast with the granite classics at Bosigran and Chair Ladder.



victim of mathematics - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to NorthernRock)
> [...]
>
> I still think Aurora is a classic, just for line, history and exposure.

Actually I'm with you on that one Al. I did it a few months ago having always avoided Stoney thanks to its reputation. I was very pleaseantly surprised. The first pitch is bobbins, but the top pitch is really excellent.
victim of mathematics - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Will Hunt:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> [...]
>
>
> <Looks at profile>
> <Notes location as Sheffield>
> That explains that then.
>
> :-)

Eh? Is it the only rational explanation for me never having heard of Rothley Crack?! Forgive me if I'm being dense...
victim of mathematics - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to JDal:

> I tend to agree about the controversy over grades of the other two though, which is why I dismissed them. People seem to fnd one or the other or both wildly undergraded. I find Lorraine tough HVS and Tigers Wall straight VS. I have a mate who has it the other way round.

If it helps clear things up, I'm pretty certain they're both HVS :)

Tigers Wall has a number of steep 4c/5a moves about half way up with only some shonky gear between you and some broken ankles, and Lorraine is just utterly, utterly impossible. In nearly 10 years of climbing it's the only VS I've been unable to get more than a foot off the ground on.
minexplorer - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:my favourites down here in the west:at the dewerstone,vineyard and climbers club ordinary (but with the direct 4c finish).great western,sarcophagus,inkerman groove at chudleigh.wreckers slab at cornakey.little brown jug at bosigran.hayloft at sennen.petros at avon gorge.gates of eden at daddyhole(recently upgraded to hvs...crazy).all of these had great variety situations atmosphere technical moves and above all else great fun not terrifying.but i guess thats why the VS grade is so popular.
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Second Update. Those now with more than one nomination (and not in Classic/Hard as far as I know) are:

Lake District and NW:
• Eliminate A (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer)
• Haste Not (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab (Scafell)
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock)
• Innominate Crack (Kern Knotts)
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag)
• Eagle Front (Buttermere)
• Jean Jeanie (Trowbarrow)

South West:
• Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle)
• Little Brown Jug (Bosigran)
• Diocese (Bosigran)
• Anvil Chorus (Bosigran)
• South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff)
• Lost Horizon (Baggy Point)
• Albion (Lundy)
• Diamond Solitaire (Lundy)
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon)
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh)
• Leviathan (Dewerstone)

North Wales:
• Rap (Gogarth)
• Green Slab (Gogarth)
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)
• Direct Route (Dinas Mot)
• Mur y Niwl/Pinnacle Wall (Craig Yr Ysfa)
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan)
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan)

Peak District:
• Mississippi Buttress Direct (Stanage)
• High Neb Buttress (Stanage)
• Inverted V (Stanage)
• Nozag (Castle Naze)
• Valkyrie (Roaches)
• Tower Face (Laddow)
• The Mall (Millstone)
• Golden Yardstick (Wildcat)
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud)

North Yorkshire and the NE:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe)

Scotland:
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer)
• The Pobble (Souter Head)
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova)
• Black Mamba (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain)
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh)
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain)

South Wales:
• Osiris (Gower)
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head)
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai)

50 routes in total so far, past halfway to the magic 80. Forgive me if I’ve missed any routes, the list is getting a bit unwieldy now!

Surely something from Cloggy …Great/Bow is off limits (in Hard Rock), but perhaps second votes for Piggott’s or Longlands might be forthcoming.
I suspect Kirkus’s Route in Cwm Silyn deserves a second vote.
Another vote for Munich Climb on Tryfan anyone?
Lots of Tremadog suggestions, but no consensus as far as I can see, so which of:
Grim Wall
One step in the Clouds
Plumbline
Scratch
Some agreement on North Yorkshire and Northumberland Climbs could see this section better represented.
Someone said Wye Valley, but not sure what is best at VS, Questor or Freedom perhaps?


ads.ukclimbing.com
JDal - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> Tigers Wall has a number of steep 4c/5a moves about half way up with only some shonky gear between you and some broken ankles

NOOO!! A 5a wall about 6 feet off the deck then your hands are on a short steep giantjugfest (although these are getting less giant as loons stick friends in amongst them and then fall off). Then a VD crack to the top.

>, and Lorraine is just utterly, utterly impossible. In nearly 10 years of climbing it's the only VS I've been unable to get more than a foot off the ground on.
Agreed, although I can get off the ground. It doesn't get any easier higher up.
JDal - on 13 Nov 2010
> Some agreement on North Yorkshire and Northumberland Climbs could see this section better represented.

I agree with myself on Northumberland. If we're only allowed one, then Tacitation.
sjminfife - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to gribble: Is that Bachelors Right Hand? which is VS which I can vouch for (I'm old and my memory needs jogging!)I wish I could vouch for Left Hand,Its harder and I've never done it.
sjm
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I think Questor does deserve to be in the top 80, just.

Does anyone else agree with me that Pigott's (a better route IMO than Longland's) on Cloggy deserves to be in; as does Nor' Nor' West Route on Pillar for it's length, position and exposure? And surely Mickledore Grooves (though I haven't done it - always been told it's brilliant.)
Al Evans on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> Actually I'm with you on that one Al. I did it a few months ago having always avoided Stoney thanks to its reputation. I was very pleaseantly surprised. The first pitch is bobbins, but the top pitch is really excellent.

And stunning that its F/A was done in 1933, probably the first ´modern´ route done on northern limestone.
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

And surely Integrity on Sron na Ciche?
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Al Evans:

I was very fortunate to have a first hand account of it from Frank Elliott himself (some of which I quoted in my Peak book).
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> And surely Integrity on Sron na Ciche?

Think it is a stiff HS and appears in Classic Rock so disqualified ...although it is excellent I believe.
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Ah, it's in Classic Rock! I'd forgotten that. Yes, it's excellent.
Pursued by a bear - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to the Ivanator: How about Samarkand at Anglezarke as a Lancashire representative?

T.
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Sorry, I meant North-West Climb on Pillar.
Rog Wilko on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Yes, I'd add my vote for Night Watch. Did it nigh on 20 years ago and I still remember it vividly. Is that the test?

OK, now what about our own esoteric favourites which we just KNOW no-one else will vote for?
Mine are Tiger Route 1 at Wild Cat (only in 40-odd log books, compared to nearly 80 for Night Watch)and Hiatus on Gimmer (only in 17 log books). I know it has one or two short grotty bits, but no worse than Eagle Front in that respect and the 3rd pitch is sensational for the grade.
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) Yes, I'd add my vote for Night Watch. Did it nigh on 20 years ago and I still remember it vividly. Is that the test?

Sounds like a good test to me! Not one available to relative newcomers to the climbing game such as myself though.
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko:

> OK, now what about our own esoteric favourites which we just KNOW no-one else will vote for?

Well since you asked, I'd nominate Aries at Initiation Slabs in North Pembs. for this category, a hidden gem.
Lord of Starkness - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to aln:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) Would a vote for Trundle at Auchinstarry Quarry be taking the p*ss?

If you do have to include a VS from 'Starry then Red Lead, or Spirogyra are both better than Trundle. After the good main slab, Trundle deteriorates and the line is broken by an escapable ledge, whereas the other two maintain their difficulty in fine inescapable positions near the top - yet are well protected on pretty good rock.
D Berry on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Definitely agree with Lost Horizon and Inkerman Groove, however Hargreaves Original is better than High Neb Buttress, though already being in classic rock does that discount it?
scott titt - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Girona
and nearly all the VS routes at the Fair Head crags, far better than some suggestions.
Scorpion-no way-V Diff climbing to a sandy mantle.

At Swanage
Quality Street (it really is VS)
Tatra (to teach the list tickers humility!)

At Kyloe I enjoyed Wilfred Prickles more than Tacitation- a bit unbalanced I thought.
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to scott titt:
Yet to test whether Quality St. is really VS or not, but unless it is downgraded in the forthcoming CC guide I reckon it is off limits. Tatra ...as Orwell might say "Some VS's are more equal than others".
Some other Swanage contenders?
Tensor II
Freda
Isis
The Heidelberg Creature
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
72 Routes, 8 more required …more from Scotland anyone?

South West:
• Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle)
• Little Brown Jug (Bosigran)
• Diocese (Bosigran)
• Anvil Chorus (Bosigran)
• South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff)
• Lost Horizon (Baggy Point)
• Albion (Lundy)
• Diamond Solitaire (Lundy)
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon)
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh)
• Leviathan (Dewerstone)

South Wales:
• Osiris (Gower)
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head)
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai)
• Questor (Wyndcliffe)

North Wales:
• Rap (Gogarth)
• Green Slab (Gogarth)
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)
• Direct Route (Dinas Mot)
• Mur y Niwl/Pinnacle Wall (Craig Yr Ysfa)
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan)
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan)
• Piggott’s Climb (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu)
• Munich Climb (Tryfan)
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof)
• Lavaredo (Carreg Alltrem)
• One Step in the Clouds (Craig Bwlch y Moch)
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt)

Peak District:
• Mississippi Buttress Direct (Stanage)
• High Neb Buttress (Stanage)
• Inverted V (Stanage)
• Nozag (Castle Naze)
• Valkyrie (Roaches)
• Tower Face (Laddow)
• The Mall (Millstone)
• Golden Yardstick (Wildcat)
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud)
• The File (Higgar Tor)
• Gargoyle Flake (Bamford)

Lake District and NW:
• Eliminate A (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer)
• Haste Not (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab (Scafell)
• Mickledore Grooves (Scafell)
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag)
• North-West Climb (Pillar)
• Eagle Front (Buttermere)
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock)
• Innominate Crack (Kern Knotts)
• Jean Jeanie (Trowbarrow)
• Metamorphosis/Samarkand (Anglezarke)

North Yorkshire and the NE:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe)
• Tacitation/Wilfred Prickles (Kyloe Crag)

Scotland:
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer)
• The Pobble (Souter Head)
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova)
• Black Mamba (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain)
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh)
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain)
• Black Pig/Black Gold (Reiff)
• Red Lead (Auchinstarry Quarry)

Northern Ireland:
• The Fence (Fairhead)
• Girona (Fairhead)

A pretty good ticklist that would give a real flavour of mid grade British Climbing in my opinion. Thanks for all your contributions.
So is there a publisher out there interested? Is there a market for this volume?


TMM - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Good looking list.

I'm surprised no one has seconded my vote for Shamrock on Lundy.

I'll second the vote for Roadrunner but agree that the abbing off after the first pitch is a bit of a cop out. Similar for most people climbing Leviathan at The Dewerston, don't see the 2nd pitch getting much traffic.

Did I see a vote for Climbers Club direct earlier? That's benchmark HVS surely. Sadly Climbers Club Original just isn't as good.
Chris the Tall - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Your list is looking pretty good - certainly agree with Nw Arete, Overhanging B, Haste Not and Eliminate A for the lakes.

Stanage - yes to High Neb Butt and Miss Butt Direct, but no to Inverted V, the most overrated route on the crag IMHO. Hargreaves Original Route is much better, probably my fav VS anywhere. Has anyone mentioned the Brain at Curbar. Sunset Slab on Froggatt is a must, and definately only VS.

Are we allowed combos - if so Tech Slab with the Neb Finish at the Roaches is exceptional

Elsewhere - Amorican is a must. I thought Kinky Boots was better than Lost Horizons, but Shangri La was better still, but it's only HS (which also rules out Horsemans on Lundy, Metamorphosis at Barcud, Paradise Crack at Stanage). Equinox is better tha Seamstress for the slate entry. Noahs warning rather than Sabre Cut ?
NorthernRock - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:

The File. Good call
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I agree with you about Hargreaves Original v. Inverted V; also Technical Slab plus Neb Finish, superb, though still scarcely VS.
The Brain is quite a good contender, but I would argue that another two-pitcher that's even better is Lean Man's Superdirect at Black Rocks.
Last time I did Noah's Warning (still many years ago) it seemed to have become quite dirty, except for the superb finish. I think overall Sabre Cut is slightly better.
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
I thought Kinky Boots was better than Lost Horizons

I'd agree the start is memorable, the whole first pitch is excellent ...but the vegetated top out is not of the same quality, one star in the latest Rockfax seems an unnecessarily harsh judgement on the route though. Lost Horizon is a very pure line and nicely sustained at the grade, but it does lack the uniqueness of Kinky Boots.
Doug on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: There must be some classic VSs from Skye but I can't name any. Also bizarre there's nothing from Glencoe, there's several VSs on Rannoch Wall, one might be an option but they've all blurred together in my memory. What about Bomerang on Aonach Dubh ? (can't check grade, UK logbook-find crag doesn't seem to be working, was VS in the guide when I climbed it but that was a long time ago)
Wilbur - on 13 Nov 2010
I thought inverted v was cack personally
danm - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply:

Hard to argue with most of these. A few possibles:

Cataclysm, Wildcat. Far better than owt at Stoney.
Pothole Wall, Willersley.
Route 1, Dovestones Tor.
Fern Crack, Stanage. Sorts out the jammers from those who can't.
Delilah, High Crag. What a location.
Square Chimney/Medusa, Esk. Its not Central Pillar, but its a good test at the grade and gets you up one of the best crags in England.
Lakeland Cragsman, Sergeant Crag Slab. Should be VS.
Engineers Slab, Gable.
The Black Thief, Fairhead. Better than Girona, which is bobbins.
Butterknife, Garbh Bheinn. Must do more in Scotland.
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Doug:

Well, Shangri-la and Crack of Double Doom on Sron na Ciche are said to be excellent ...
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to danm:

Yes, Cataclysm is arguably better than Golden Yardstick ...
Fern Crack, agreed, one of the best VSs at Stanage.
petestack - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The Skye Shangri-la is brilliant (possibly the best VS I've done), but I've already nominated it and it's still wanting a second from someone else who's done it. Looks like Butterknife's seconded now, but surprised Fionn Buttress has stayed at a single mention so far and can't vote for it myself because I've still to do it! And Scotland still seems to be under-represented given its size and sheer quantity of good rock (sure, I'm a Scot and have done most of my climbing in Scotland!), but perhaps that's inevitable when you look at UK (and UKC) population centres as a whole?
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Some minor revisions, due to popular demand Hargreaves Original replaces Inverted V at Stanage, and I’m up to 75 with the addition of 2 routes on Skye and Kinky Boots at Baggy Point.

South West:
• Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle)
• Little Brown Jug (Bosigran)
• Diocese (Bosigran)
• Anvil Chorus (Bosigran)
• South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff)
• Lost Horizon (Baggy Point)
• Kinky Boots (Baggy Point)
• Albion (Lundy)
• Diamond Solitaire (Lundy)
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon)
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh)
• Leviathan (Dewerstone)

South Wales:
• Osiris (Gower)
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head)
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai)
• Questor (Wyndcliffe)

North Wales:
• Rap (Gogarth)
• Green Slab (Gogarth)
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)
• Direct Route (Dinas Mot)
• Mur y Niwl/Pinnacle Wall (Craig Yr Ysfa)
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan)
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan)
• Piggott’s Climb (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu)
• Munich Climb (Tryfan)
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof)
• Lavaredo (Carreg Alltrem)
• One Step in the Clouds (Craig Bwlch y Moch)
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt)

Peak District:
• Mississippi Buttress Direct (Stanage)
• High Neb Buttress (Stanage)
• Hargreaves Original (Stanage)
• Nozag (Castle Naze)
• Valkyrie (Roaches)
• Tower Face (Laddow)
• The Mall (Millstone)
• Golden Yardstick (Wildcat)
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud)
• The File (Higgar Tor)
• Gargoyle Flake (Bamford)

Lake District and NW:
• Eliminate A (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer)
• Haste Not (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab (Scafell)
• Mickledore Grooves (Scafell)
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag)
• North-West Climb (Pillar)
• Eagle Front (Buttermere)
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock)
• Innominate Crack (Kern Knotts)
• Jean Jeanie (Trowbarrow)
• Metamorphosis/Samarkand (Anglezarke)

North Yorkshire and the NE:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe)
• Tacitation/Wilfred Prickles (Kyloe Crag)

Scotland:
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer)
• The Pobble (Souter Head)
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova)
• Black Mamba (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain)
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh)
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain)
• Black Pig/Black Gold (Reiff)
• Red Lead (Auchinstarry Quarry)
• Crack of Double Doom (Sron na Ciche)
• Shangri-La (Sron na Ciche)

Northern Ireland:
• The Fence (Fairhead)
• Girona (Fairhead)


The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Just a thought, due to the excellence of Eliminate A the other Dow VS's tend to get overshadowed, but Eliminate C and particularly Murray's Direct would surely be certainties for the list if they were not on the same crag as Eliminate A.
Any other seconders for Murray's?
Dave Ferguson - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
some more obscure but equally worthwhile

Guillemot's Groove on Pen y Cil - Lleyn
Grooves-ology on the mighty Raven's Scar - North York Moors
Whitt at Symonds Yat
lrandall - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I'll probably get shot down in flames here but as you'ver got some space I'll recommend Hades at Baildon bank. Great route for the grade (better then Inverted V IMO which made it in, albiet briefly) at a crag which isn't in Eastern Grit so a little esoteric. Baildon also boasts other really good routes at VS or below (Epitaph/Direct, Paddys route, Bramble Crack, Joanna and Willain's Arete) so a good days climbing there for someone operating at the grade.

Waiting for the laughter.....
tasmat - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Glad to see that Inverted V has been taken out. Enjoyable, but an overrated climb. For North Wales, Grim Wall is a must (at least in my humble opinion)!
Hammy - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I think Birch Tree Wall at Brimham is worthy of this list.
In reply to The Ivanator: What about Phoenix Climb at Shining Clough?
cam1401 - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Whether WallWhither Whether combo The Cobbler
gribble - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Yep, Fern Crack is WAY better than Inverted V. Very enjoyable route.
sjminfife - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: We could add The Weight on Fulmar Wall on the Aberdeen Sea cliffs.Given HS in the Guide if someone told me the lower move was 4c I'd probably believe them.It would add impetus for people to visit this great area. And also Route 2 at Diabeg...a solid VS leader having a good day will manage it easily.
sjm
ads.ukclimbing.com
sjminfife - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: The Groove at Craig Y Bairns if we want some more from Scotland.
sjm
Rog Wilko on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Suddenly thought of Engineer's Slab on Gable. Has that been mentioned? Surely a candidate for the top ten never mind the top 80!
Chris the Tall - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Hammy:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) I think Birch Tree Wall at Brimham is worthy of this list.

Good call
sjminfife - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko: Unfortunately Engineers Slab is in Hard Rock.
sjm
sjminfife - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall: I like Birch Tree Wall as well.
sjm
Jeremy Ashcroft - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I would add Eliminate C and Murry's Direct on Dow, The Gordian Knot and Haste Knot on White Ghyll, Fool's Paradise on Gowder,May Day Cracks on Castle Rock, Communists Convert on Raven Crag,Delilah on High Crag, Bilberry Buttress Raven Crag.
scott titt - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
I feel these three Welsh selections are weak
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof)
• Lavaredo (Carreg Alltrem)
• One Step in the Clouds (Craig Bwlch y Moch)
Kirkus' although on a grand piece of rock wanders a bit to find the better climbing, all a bit escapable I thought.
Lavaredo has about 15ft of truly good climbing, a good route for the crag-not for N Wales.
One Step, too much easy climbing and no "bite" to anything on it.

I would nominate Curving Crack to replace one, or any, of these; good tough mountain climbing on one of the premier crags of N Wales.
How about something like Claire du Lune on Jersey to spread the net a little wider?
Kevster - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Right angle, gurnards head. thinks its a VS anyway.
alasdair19 on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: please remove red lead its embarrassingly poor compared with other on the list. wither wether combo is amazing. not sure snything in glen clova is best 80 VS in UK sort of territory... but I've not done a lot there.
Chris the Tall - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
You need more Limestone in your list, so here are some more contenders

10 craters of wisdom - Dovedale
Succipat - Staden - suprisingly good until the last few metres
Scavenger - 3 cliffs - although I though Arch Slab was as good if not better
Tensor II - Swanage - I suppose I ought to agree with Scott Titt about this, I was probably the 100th person he climbed it with - a rate of almost 2 a year...
sjminfife - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> You need more Limestone in your list, so here are some more contenders
What about Medusa in Ravensdale?Very amenable.
sjm
Chris the Tall - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to sjminfife:
I was going to mention Medusa, but my memory of it is my mate pulling a large block off on the first pitch. Some good moments on the second pitch.
Skylight and Entropy at High Tor are similar - great position, some good moves but slightly spoilt by some choss
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I think 10 craters, good as the climbing is, is a bit tree shrouded and not very exposed. Two stars.
sjminfife - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall: Its probably 25 years since I did it but I only remember the normal limestone loosenes i.e. a couple of holds seemed loose but nothing to worry about.However these cliffs can suffer over a few winters and last years belay becomes this years dangerous loose block.
I did enjoy it though.
sjm
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to scott titt:

I agree with your assessment on all three.

Curving Crack runs out of steam halfway up. Pigott's Route much more even and standard and very classic.
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Jeremy Ashcroft:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) I would add Eliminate C and Murry's Direct on Dow, The Gordian Knot and Haste Knot on White Ghyll, Fool's Paradise on Gowder,May Day Cracks on Castle Rock, Communists Convert on Raven Crag,Delilah on High Crag, Bilberry Buttress Raven Crag.

It makes no sense to have both Gordian Knot and Haste Not. HN is much the better route, so that's the one that should go in.
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Yes, Birch Tree Wall at Brimham is absolutely outstanding. Arguably the best VS on grit.
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
I’m doing my best to interpret the consensus here so …Birch Tree Wall, Grim Wall, Tensor II, Murray’s Direct and Whether Wall/Wither Whether combo added; Red Lead, Lavaredo and One step in the Clouds removed. We are close to 80, but still room for manoeuvre.

South West:
• Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle)
• Tensor II (Guillemot Ledge)
• Little Brown Jug (Bosigran)
• Diocese (Bosigran)
• Anvil Chorus (Bosigran)
• South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff)
• Lost Horizon (Baggy Point)
• Kinky Boots (Baggy Point)
• Albion (Lundy)
• Diamond Solitaire (Lundy)
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon)
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh)
• Leviathan (Dewerstone)
• Whitt (Symonds Yat)

South Wales:
• Osiris (Gower)
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head)
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai)
• Questor (Wyndcliffe)

North Wales:
• Rap (Gogarth)
• Green Slab (Gogarth)
• Piggott’s Climb (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu)
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan)
• Direct Route (Dinas Mot)
• Mur y Niwl/Pinnacle Wall (Craig Yr Ysfa)
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan)
• Munich Climb (Tryfan)
• Grim Wall (Craig Bwlch y Moch)
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof)
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt)

Peak District:
• Mississippi Buttress Direct (Stanage)
• High Neb Buttress (Stanage)
• Hargreaves Original (Stanage)
• Nozag (Castle Naze)
• Valkyrie (Roaches)
• Tower Face (Laddow)
• The Mall (Millstone)
• Golden Yardstick (Wildcat)
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud)
• The File (Higgar Tor)
• Gargoyle Flake (Bamford)

Lake District and NW:
• Eliminate A (Dow)
• Murray’s Direct (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer)
• Haste Not (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab (Scafell)
• Mickledore Grooves (Scafell)
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag)
• North-West Climb (Pillar)
• Eagle Front (Buttermere)
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock)
• Innominate Crack (Kern Knotts)
• Jean Jeanie (Trowbarrow)
• Metamorphosis (Anglezarke)
• Samarkand (Anglezarke)

North Yorkshire and the NE:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe)
• Birch Tree Wall (Brimham)
• Tacitation (Kyloe Crag)
• Wilfred Prickles (Kyloe Crag)

Scotland:
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer)
• The Pobble (Souter Head)
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova)
• Black Mamba (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain)
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh)
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain)
• Black Pig (Reiff)
• Black Gold (Reiff)
• Crack of Double Doom (Sron na Ciche)
• Shangri-La (Sron na Ciche)
• Whether Wall/Wither Whether (the Cobbler)

Northern Ireland:
• The Fence (Fairhead)
• Girona (Fairhead)


Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Ivan, I think it's worth taking one's time on this, because I'm sure there is still a lot of debate and further suggestions to come.
sjminfife - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Another try for Route 2 at Diabeg,I'm not sure its really harder than Albion.....
sjm
ads.ukclimbing.com
ScraggyGoat on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I struggle with the idea that the Pobble on Souter Head should be included, nice route though it is it isn't classic in any sense (history, climbing, exposure or setting).

However the Pobble on Fionaven is meant to be excellent, but I've yet to do it or know anyone that has.......

Grand Diedre on skye is very good but we have a fair few Skye routes already.
gg4419 - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Just to be pedantic, Diocese is at Chair Ladder.

Gareth
matt perks - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> Some other Swanage contenders?
> Tensor II
> Freda
> Isis
> The Heidelberg Creature

All good but I think Tensor II is a bit over-rated, although it has a nice variety of climbing I find it a touch bitty.
Freda is good climbing but very short.
Isis is good once it gets going but not outstanding.

The Heidelberg Creature is the best of these in my opinion and absolutely awesome territory on the first pitch for VS. I think Old Faithful is equally good but not yet mentioned. Actually can I mention Old Faithful twice and get it into the list?

Silhouette Arete is currently on the list but whilst it has a position of jaw-breaking exposure out on that arete the rest of the route is pretty mediocre in comparison, no? I tend to think the photo is better than the climbing.

And I like the idea of slipping Tatra in there (not quite as tough as The Scoop) as it is an excellent route but if it survives at VS in the new CC guide it will be as an act of nostalgia.

Quality Street is amazingly good but definitely HVS in both current guides and my opinion.

Support for The File on Higgar Tor as the definitive VS jamming experience.

The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Oh, and Whitt at Symonds Yat just sneaked in too ...that was on the possibles list but excess wine gave it a passport to the top 80, perhaps that happened for a reason, I'm going to leave it in unless there is a tide of dissent.
I'm starting to hatch a plan to do a UK tour next summer and try to climb the lot, I may be seeking a range of partners so I can collect a wide variety of opinion on the climbs along with photos etc.
Perhaps I could include a profile of each partner as well, Hmmm I'm thinking Blog project initially, but if the material is good enough then maybe more.
I'm rambling now, but if you feel a burning desire to get involved in "Project VS UK" then do get in touch!
Rog Wilko on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to alasdair19: I did Proud Corner (Glen Clova) this year and thought it was brilliant - only one pitch, but long and sustained with excellent climbing. Is it worth a special journey to the crag? Yes. Far more memorable than most VSs on gritstone... (ducks below parapet)
scott titt - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Chris the Tall:
>
I was probably the 100th person he climbed it with - a rate of almost 2 a year...

Oi! I saw that!

The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to matt perks: I enjoyed Old Faithful, but would definitely go for Silhouette Arete in preference personally. Tend to agree with your thoughts on Isis and Freda. Heidelberg is awesome on that first pitch and perhaps should replace Tensor II ...but it's a good thing to have another premier area of Swanage (in Guillemot) represented.
And Tatra, I am starting to feel some sense of responsibility for this list and I don't know if I'm inclined to join the sandbaggers!
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Ivan, I think it's worth taking one's time on this, because I'm sure there is still a lot of debate and further suggestions to come.

For certain yes, the list remains very much a work in progress. But it is getting to the stage where one in means one out now.
DaveHall246 on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to ScraggyGoat:
Another vote for Grand Diedre on Sgurr Aladair - a bit out of the way, but both Classic and Hard Rock have routes that are off the beaten track.

Also another vote for Sunset Slab at Froggatt
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I suppose you could start to build up a 'core' list of dead certs. Something like this (haven't done them all, mind):

South West:
• Diocese (Bosigran) er ... Chair Ladder
• Anvil Chorus (Bosigran)
• South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
• Albion (Lundy)

South Wales:
• Osiris (Gower)
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head)

North Wales:
• Mur y Niwl/Pinnacle Wall (Craig Yr Ysfa)
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan)
• Grim Wall (Craig Bwlch y Moch)
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt)
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)

Peak District:
• Mississippi Buttress Direct (Stanage)
• Hargreaves Original (Stanage)
• Nozag (Castle Naze)
• Valkyrie (Roaches)
• Tower Face (Laddow)
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud)
• The File (Higgar Tor)

Lake District and NW:
• Eliminate A (Dow)
• Murray’s Direct (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer)
• Haste Not (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab (Scafell)
• Mickledore Grooves (Scafell)
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock)

North Yorkshire and the NE:
• Birch Tree Wall (Brimham)
• Tacitation (Kyloe Crag) or • Wilfred Prickles (Kyloe Crag)

Scotland:
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer)
• Black Mamba (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
• Whether Wall/Wither Whether (the Cobbler)
The Ivanator - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
• Diocese (Bosigran) er ... Chair Ladder

Something like that was bound to happen, whoops!

In addition I'd vouch for Armorican as a dead cert and the Direct Route on the Mot. But however long you wait for suggestions there are not going to be 80 of the quality of the "select" list and it is bound to be the lower half of the list and the near things that causes endless debate!

allysingo - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Insamuch as it is definitely worth a trip to Helsby for, but probably not a dead cert in the company of the above climbs, I would mention Flake Crack for possible inclusion. Suggested earlier by another poster,
Gordon Stainforth - on 13 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

OK, don't know about Armorican. Not quite sure why I left Direct Route out. At least it gets better and better as it goes, but the start isn't up to much. But perfect rock, and an inescapable line.

I'd like to put in a word for Mexican Pete at Pordenack Point if I haven't done so already. It's not very long (c.80 feet) but in a fantastically exposed position, and about the highest quality climbing for the grade that you can imagine. (See Kafoozalem's picture in the UKC Logbook) A much underrated gem (IMHO :-)
Pursued by a bear - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I think the difficulty with lists like this is differentiating between quality and popularity. The climbs most people have done and enjoyed may not be as good as the ones they haven't but would. Accessibility is not necessarily related to quality - whatever that might be.

T.
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Pursued by a bear:


Sure. We must all be aware of the 'three-star syndrome' - when something becomes so classic and popular (and thus done to the exclusion of equally good or nearly as good routes) its alleged quality becomes locked in sacred tablets of stone, which may not have much to do with the truth. Example: The Cracks on Dinas Mot (probably the least worthy route on the Nose).
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Final update today then.
With Rieff/Anglezarke and Kyloe selections compressed to either/ors and Sunset Slab and Grand Diedre added the list stands at 75. Diocese has been rightfully restored to Chair Ladder (glad you were paying attention). So there are spaces available and several on the list look vulnerable to disposal if good alternative cases are made.

South West:
• Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle)
• Tensor II (Guillemot Ledge)
• Little Brown Jug (Bosigran)
• Anvil Chorus (Bosigran)
• Diocese (Chair Ladder)
• South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff)
• Lost Horizon (Baggy Point)
• Kinky Boots (Baggy Point)
• Albion (Lundy)
• Diamond Solitaire (Lundy)
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon)
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh)
• Leviathan (Dewerstone)
• Whitt (Symonds Yat)

South Wales:
• Osiris (Gower)
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head)
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai)
• Questor (Wyndcliffe)

North Wales:
• Rap (Gogarth)
• Green Slab (Gogarth)
• Piggott’s Climb (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu)
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan)
• Direct Route (Dinas Mot)
• Mur y Niwl/Pinnacle Wall (Craig Yr Ysfa)
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan)
• Munich Climb (Tryfan)
• Grim Wall (Craig Bwlch y Moch)
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof)
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt)

Peak District:
• Mississippi Buttress Direct (Stanage)
• High Neb Buttress (Stanage)
• Hargreaves Original (Stanage)
• Nozag (Castle Naze)
• Valkyrie (Roaches)
• Tower Face (Laddow)
• The Mall (Millstone)
• Golden Yardstick (Wildcat)
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud)
• The File (Higgar Tor)
• Gargoyle Flake (Bamford)
• Sunset Slab (Froggatt)

Lake District and NW:
• Eliminate A (Dow)
• Murray’s Direct (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer)
• Haste Not (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab (Scafell)
• Mickledore Grooves (Scafell)
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag)
• North-West Climb (Pillar)
• Eagle Front (Buttermere)
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock)
• Innominate Crack (Kern Knotts)
• Jean Jeanie (Trowbarrow)
• Metamorphosis or Samarkand (Anglezarke)

North Yorkshire and the NE:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe)
• Birch Tree Wall (Brimham)
• Tacitation or Wilfred Prickles (Kyloe Crag)

Scotland:
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer)
• The Pobble (Souter Head)
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova)
• Black Mamba (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain)
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh)
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain)
• Black Pig or Black Gold (Reiff)
• Crack of Double Doom (Sron na Ciche)
• Shangri-La (Sron na Ciche)
• Whether Wall/Wither Whether (the Cobbler)
• Grand Diedre (Sgurr Alastair)

Northern Ireland:
• The Fence (Fairhead)
• Girona (Fairhead)


Jeremy Ashcroft - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to Jeremy Ashcroft)
> [...]
>
> It makes no sense to have both Gordian Knot and Haste Not. HN is much the better route, so that's the one that should go in.

Don't agree. Both are very strong routes and typify the best qualities of the VS grade. I would defy any climber not to be moved by the crux moves on The Gordian Knot. Routes should not be excluded from the list just because they share the same crag!
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Jeremy Ashcroft: We've already got several crags with multiple entries so I think you have a case, both of these White Ghyll routes are on my "to do" list, Moss Wall there was my first VS and a good climb, but I suspect a lesser light in comparison.
Jeremy Ashcroft - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to Jeremy Ashcroft) We've already got several crags with multiple entries so I think you have a case, both of these White Ghyll routes are on my "to do" list, Moss Wall there was my first VS and a good climb, but I suspect a lesser light in comparison.

Yes, certain crags have more than their fair share of VS ground and White Ghyll is one of them. Dow Crag is another. One of my best climbing days ever was doing the girdle traverse of Dow. It is 1000ft long, and for most of that it is solid VS. It takes in the cruxes of all of all the eliminates and adds a scary abseil and some down climbing for good measure.
Hardonicus - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Jeremy Ashcroft: I think Innonimate Crack is a rather weak choice. Nice single pitch but hardly top 80. Christ, I'd put something like Fisher's Folly higher up on the list.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Hardonicus - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Hardonicus:

Also the suggestion of Rap at Gogarth sounds like it is just there to shoehorn the crag in. Gogarth doesn't excel at VS and Rap is a distinctly average route.
Jonny Tee 69 - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz zzzzz
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Jonny Tee 69:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> zzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz zzzzz

What do you expect if you insist on staying up till after 4am?
In reply to The Ivanator:

Always worth retelling the tale: Al Rouse talking to Ken Wilson about Classic Rock (Duffers' Rock or something similar he called it). Wilson said that Rouse could always solo them to increase the challenge Rouse retorted that he could solo all the routes in Hard Rock!


Chris
dave o - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

agreed, the pobble is not even the best vs on the aberdeen coast, and it doesn't have much competition!! should definately be removed.

not convinced mouse trap or black mamba at the dubh loch should be there either, great cliff, somewhat mucky routes. scabbard in etchachan is probably the best cairngorm vs ive done

or......

jamie jampot at elgol.
spider right hand on aonach dubh
king bee at creag dubh
alan moore - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to dave o: Those last 3 are 1 star routes.
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Morning update.
I fear that this thread devoted to “Punter” climbing could become (if it hasn’t already) BORING! It has however become a little pet project now so I will continue to refine the list based on email suggestions and will post again if there are significant changes.
Due to multiple suggestions Curving Crack (Cloggy), Fern Crack (Stanage), Flake Crack (Helsby), The Gordian Knot (White Ghyll) and Scabbard (Creag a'choire Etchachan) are in, I’ve removed Hargreaves Original as it is in Classic Rock.
Would Gladiator at Penyghent be a worthy addition? Still think Yorkshire looks underrepresented.
I’ve compressed Gogarth and Craig an Dubh Loch suggestions to either/or, due to some doubts expressed over the quality of these selections.

South West:
• Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle)
• Tensor II (Guillemot Ledge)
• Little Brown Jug (Bosigran)
• Anvil Chorus (Bosigran)
• Diocese (Chair Ladder)
• South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff)
• Lost Horizon (Baggy Point)
• Kinky Boots (Baggy Point)
• Albion (Lundy)
• Diamond Solitaire (Lundy)
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon)
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh)
• Leviathan (Dewerstone)
• Whitt (Symonds Yat)

South Wales:
• Osiris (Gower)
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head)
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai)
• Questor (Wyndcliffe)

North Wales:
• Green Slab or Rap (Gogarth)
• Piggott’s Climb (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu)
• Curving Crack (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu)
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan)
• Direct Route (Dinas Mot)
• Mur y Niwl/Pinnacle Wall (Craig Yr Ysfa)
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan)
• Munich Climb (Tryfan)
• Grim Wall (Craig Bwlch y Moch)
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof)
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt)

Peak District:
• Mississippi Buttress Direct (Stanage)
• High Neb Buttress (Stanage)
• Fern Crack (Stanage)
• Nozag (Castle Naze)
• Valkyrie (Roaches)
• Tower Face (Laddow)
• The Mall (Millstone)
• Golden Yardstick or Cataclysm (Wildcat)
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud)
• The File (Higgar Tor)
• Gargoyle Flake (Bamford)
• Sunset Slab (Froggatt)

Lake District and NW:
• Eliminate A (Dow)
• Murray’s Direct (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer)
• Haste Not (White Ghyll)
• The Gordian Knot (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab (Scafell)
• Mickledore Grooves (Scafell)
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag)
• North-West Climb (Pillar)
• Eagle Front (Buttermere)
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock)
• Innominate Crack (Kern Knotts)
• Jean Jeanie (Trowbarrow)
• Metamorphosis or Samarkand (Anglezarke)
• Flake Crack (Helsby)

North Yorkshire and the NE:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe)
• Birch Tree Wall (Brimham)
• Tacitation or Wilfred Prickles (Kyloe Crag)

Scotland:
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer)
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova)
• Black Mamba or The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Scabbard (Creag a'choire Etchachan)
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain)
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh)
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain)
• Black Pig or Black Gold (Reiff)
• Crack of Double Doom (Sron na Ciche)
• Shangri-La (Sron na Ciche)
• Whether Wall/Wither Whether (the Cobbler)
• Grand Diedre (Sgurr Alastair)

Northern Ireland:
• The Fence (Fairhead)
• Girona (Fairhead)


Jeremy Ashcroft - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Hardonicus: Not guilty your honour! Innonimate Crack wasn't on my list, good route though even is it is just a single pitch. Has anybody mentioned Mickledore Grooves it should definitely by on the list?
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Jeremy Ashcroft:

Mickledore Grooves is already in, Jeremy! I agree with you about Innominate Crack. Historically interesting, but as you say a single pitch and quite a short one at that. I've done it about three times, but don't have very strong memories of it except that it's roughly what you'd expect at about MVS.
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I'm starting to think that Ribstone Crack on the Wastad should be in, or certainly considered. I think it's rather underated at two stars.
And maybe either Lot's Wife or Lot's Groove ??
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
If being single pitch is being used to justify the exclusion of Innominate Crack where does that leave most of the Peak District entries?
I've not done it (IC) but just wondering if it is intrinsically less worthy than some of the Peak Routes, single pitching is a big part of the British Climbing scene and should be represented I feel.

Bobling - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Not boring for me to read, great idea generating stuff for this punter. It has also distracted me from the bloody rain that has stopped me getting out over the last couple of days so thanks for this thread! I like the idea of the book - could you sack in your job try and do them all in a year? Would be a great adventure. I'll put my vote in for Arch Slab at Three Cliffs, was my first VS lead so probably hold it in too high regard (and I don't have alot to compare it with).
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Well, that's why the quality for the Peak routes has to be exceptional (and of course some like Valkyrie are two pitch). It's just that Innominate Crack in the context of the Napes is rather small fry. I would have thought that Eagle's Nest Ridge Direct is a much more worthy contender (though I haven't done it.)

Which reminds me, Demon Wall on the Napes, left of Tophet Wall, is absolutely brilliant, and very exposed. Absurdly underrated with only one star. Does anyone else agree with me?
victim of mathematics - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Not wishing to spoil things, but Mur y Niwl, Munich Climb, Sunset Slab and Wilfred Prickles are all HVS in the most recent guides (and rightly so I think).

Also, Crack of Double Doom is nice enough, but there's some very worrying hollow flakes and it's not that outstanding. Good name though.
Skyfall - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Try also Lakes:

Sobrenada - Eagle Crag, Grisedale
Dexter Wall - Grey Crag
Troutdale Pinnacle
Dave Ferguson - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Hardonicus:
> (In reply to Hardonicus)
>
Gogarth doesn't excel at VS and Rap is a distinctly average route.

I would agree that Rap is not the best VS at Gogarth, but it still knocks spots off many of the grit and limstone offerings

another gogarth suggestion would be Green Light, those that have done it would probably agree its gotta be in the top 80, if only for the distinctly scary Blacksmith approach
wilkie14c - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
The list is comming on very nicely, I was reading with interest yesterday on my phone but didn't post due to connection as I was on a train.
Is this a bit of fun or are you intending to do something with it? i.e. a real book??
My 2 pennies worth:
Metamorphosis or Samarkand (Anglezarke) - Nice routes and local faves for me but I don't think they warrant a place on the list, short sandy grit routes of no outstanding quality, I'd say they only get 3 stars as compared to a lot of Lancs quarry routes of this grade they are outstanding! Its not cricket to suggest something shouldn't be in without offering an alternative so I offer you <in exchange for Metamorphosis or Samarkand> Mohammed the Mad Monk of Moorside Home for Mental Misfits at Denham or staying at Trowbarrow, the brilliant Harijan. Better than Jean Jeanie due to less traffic IMO. I'm rather chuffed to have done most of the routes on the list, I need more time 'daan saff' and more time over the border though...
My numbero uno VS of all time is North West Arete on Gimmer and I'm pleased that opinion is shared by others.
Nice to see a 'list' thread with proper admin! good work.

Dom Whillans on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
loving the list and i'm going to add another vote for Scavenger on 3 Cliffs on the Gower. Aesthetic and fine climbing. I think that makes 4 votes for it? ;o)
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Dom Whillans:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> loving the list and i'm going to add another vote for Scavenger on 3 Cliffs on the Gower. Aesthetic and fine climbing. I think that makes 4 votes for it? ;o)

I know the start is a little polished, but I really don't understand those that knock Scavenger, I think it is a great line and probably more worthy than a few in the list, so it is definitely a serious contender.
scott titt - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

We must all be aware of the 'three-star syndrome' - when something becomes so classic and popular (and thus done to the exclusion of equally good or nearly as good routes) its alleged quality becomes locked in sacred tablets of stone, which may not have much to do with the truth.

I feel Gargoyle Flake is a fine example of this, it makes a fine picture but the route is really quite scrappy and escapable. I thought Bilberry Crack on the same crag better.
ads.ukclimbing.com
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to blanchie14c:
Is this a bit of fun or are you intending to do something with it? i.e. a real book??

- Not 100% sure yet to be honest, next summer I am intending to to a VS tour of the UK and an accompanying Blog, if the content is good enough then maybe I'll see if anyone is interested in publishing.

Metamorphosis or Samarkand (Anglezarke) - Nice routes and local faves for me but I don't think they warrant a place on the list

- Haven't climbed them, but I do think they look among the more vulnerable selections!

or staying at Trowbarrow, the brilliant Harijan.

- Well I'll add that to the either/ors then, there is a fair bit of multiple/combo routes at Crags in Classic Rock so it seems an acceptable practice.

My numbero uno VS of all time is North West Arete on Gimmer and I'm pleased that opinion is shared by others.
Nice to see a 'list' thread with proper admin! good work.

- I agree NW Arete is up there, although it was SO cold when I climbed it that it did reduce the pleasure somewhat. Don't know if I've ever been complimented on my admin before so that is a novel experience.
It seems enough people are enjoying the thread to justify further updates, but as I have report writing to press on with a revised list may have to wait awhile, suggestions made in the meantime will all receive due consideration!


In reply to The Ivanator: More Lakes routes than in the whole of Scotland? That's a bit of an oversight. For quality VSs Scotland should arguably take up about 50% of the whole list, or at least a lot more space than you've given it so far. No UK-wide list would be complete without South Ridge Direct, Fionn Buttress, and doubtless loads of other mountain biggies like The Long Climb that you don't seem to have listed. And for single pitch classics Pain Pillar and Jamie Jampot are as good as anything I've done from your English and Welsh selection, and those are only the most obvious ones I can think of.
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to scott titt:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> We must all be aware of the 'three-star syndrome' - when something becomes so classic and popular (and thus done to the exclusion of equally good or nearly as good routes) its alleged quality becomes locked in sacred tablets of stone, which may not have much to do with the truth.
>
> I feel Gargoyle Flake is a fine example of this, it makes a fine picture but the route is really quite scrappy and escapable. I thought Bilberry Crack on the same crag better.

I haven't done it, but yes, it's in a fine, photogenic position, but I've heard just what you've said, that it's quite scrappy really. A route which is very good is Route 1 at Dovestone Tor. Anyone else agree?

The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Not wishing to spoil things, but Mur y Niwl, Munich Climb, Sunset Slab and Wilfred Prickles are all HVS in the most recent guides (and rightly so I think).

Not spoiling things at all, I appreciate the input. I think one or two of the climbs mentioned have differing grades in current guides by CC, Rockfax or Ground Up. I'll research and amend as appropriate.

> Also, Crack of Double Doom is nice enough, but there's some very worrying hollow flakes and it's not that outstanding. Good name though.

Point taken.
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

In the Peak, I'd take out High Neb Buttress (which sadly runs out of steam at little over half height) and add the superlative Lean Man's Superdirect at Black Rocks (which I've mentioned before). Best done in two pitches, too. I think it is one of the very best VSs on grit.
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to dan bailey:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) More Lakes routes than in the whole of Scotland? That's a bit of an oversight. For quality VSs Scotland should arguably take up about 50% of the whole list, or at least a lot more space than you've given it so far. No UK-wide list would be complete without South Ridge Direct, Fionn Buttress, and doubtless loads of other mountain biggies like The Long Climb that you don't seem to have listed. And for single pitch classics Pain Pillar and Jamie Jampot are as good as anything I've done from your English and Welsh selection, and those are only the most obvious ones I can think of.

I tend to agree that Scotland should be more broadly represented, The Long Climb and South Ridge Direct are covered in Classic and Hard Rock respectively or they would definitely both be there.
I've noted your other suggestions and they may find their way into the revised list.
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

And isn't Quien Sabe? at Bamford meant to be absolutely brilliant?
In reply to The Ivanator: Sorry, i missed the bit about Classic/Hard Rock; it's a long thread
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Who knows...? sorry, someone had to
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to dan bailey:

Yes, I walked into that, didn't I? :-)
JDal - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:

OI!!!! Wilfred Prickles is VS in the latest definitive guide. And rightly so I think. Which alleged guide are you using?? ;)

Anyhow I think Tacitation should go in, Prickles is shorter, not so well protected and has less variety.

On WP, fiddling wires in those flakes once you're past the obvious good one makes it feel like an HVS unless you've lots of stamina, and it's not good gear - the flakes could snap. In the logbooks 32 out of 46 think it's VS or top end VS.
wilkie14c - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> And isn't Quien Sabe? at Bamford meant to be absolutely brilliant?

It is Gordon, no more or less so that any other 3* VS's on grit but well worth the walk over the moor, coupled with wrinkled wall and browns crack a really good afternoon is guaranteed
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
OK, so quite a few which snuck in at HVS have gone (though many of them were once VS in the good old days). One or two others have gone due to several expressions of doubt over their quality. A few extras are in (mostly in Scotland), but overall the list is looking a little more streamlined (exactly 80 routes at present if each constituent route in combinations is counted). Must ignore for a while and get on with pressing tasks!
Ivan.

South West:
• Silhouette Arete and Tensor II (Swanage)
• Little Brown Jug and Anvil Chorus (Bosigran)
• Diocese and South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff)
• Lost Horizon and Kinky Boots (Baggy Point)
• Albion and Diamond Solitaire (Lundy)
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon)
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh)
• Leviathan (Dewerstone)
• Whitt (Symonds Yat)

South Wales:
• Osiris (Fall Bay)
• Scavenger (3 Cliffs)
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head)
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai)
• Questor (Wyndcliffe)

North Wales:
• Green Slab (Gogarth)
• Piggott’s Climb and Curving Crack (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu)
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan)
• Direct Route (Dinas Mot)
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan)
• Grim Wall (Craig Bwlch y Moch)
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof)
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt)

Peak District:
• Mississippi Buttress Direct, High Neb Buttress and Fern Crack (Stanage)
• Nozag (Castle Naze)
• Valkyrie (Roaches)
• Tower Face (Laddow)
• The Mall (Millstone)
• Golden Yardstick and Cataclysm (Wildcat)
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud)
• The File (Higgar Tor)

Lake District and NW:
• Eliminate A and Murray’s Direct (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer)
• Haste Not and The Gordian Knot (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab and Mickledore Grooves (Scafell)
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag)
• North-West Climb (Pillar)
• Eagle Front (Buttermere)
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock)
• Jean Jeanie and Harijan (Trowbarrow)
• Flake Crack (Helsby)

North Yorkshire and the NE:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe)
• Gladiator (Penyghent)
• Birch Tree Wall (Brimham)
• Tacitation (Kyloe Crag)

Scotland:
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer)
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova)
• Black Mamba and The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Scabbard (Creag a'choire Etchachan)
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain)
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh)
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain)
• Black Pig and Black Gold (Reiff)
• Pain Pillar (Hawkcraig)
• Fionn Buttress (Carnmore Crag)
• Whether Wall/Wither Whether (the Cobbler)
• Jamie Jampot (Suidhe Biorach)
• Shangri-La (Sron na Ciche)
• Grand Diedre (Sgurr Alastair)

Northern Ireland:
• The Fence and Girona (Fairhead)


MarionB - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Is anyone able to recommend Fionn Buttress in Scotland? It usually comes up on the best of VS lists.
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to MarionB: It has been recommended and included in the revised list (see above).
JimmyKay - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I've only climbed 2 routes out of the 80 suggested....
petestack - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> I tend to agree that Scotland should be more broadly represented, The Long Climb and South Ridge Direct are covered in Classic and Hard Rock respectively or they would definitely both be there.

Radical suggestion... include the ones covered by the other books as an appendix (or footnotes), hence 'restoring' The Long Climb, South Ridge Direct, Integrity, The Clean Sweep and any others that should really be there?
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Following Pete Stack’s suggestion I’ve done my best to identify the Classic Rock and Hard Rock VS’s (some of these some routes have experienced fluctuating grades over the years) and have added these as notes (18 routes in all). This gives an awesome looking ticklist of 98 routes …2 more for the ton anyone? Also any more thoughts on the best VS choice at Gogarth? Is there really a Gogarth VS worthy of the list? It is so much better at HVS of course.

South West:
• Silhouette Arete and Tensor II (Swanage)
• Little Brown Jug and Anvil Chorus (Bosigran)
• Diocese and South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff)
• Lost Horizon and Kinky Boots (Baggy Point)
• Albion and Diamond Solitaire (Lundy)
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon)
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh)
• Leviathan (Dewerstone)
• Whitt (Symonds Yat)

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Piton Climb (Avon), Climber’s Club Ordinary (The Dewerstone)

South Wales:
• Osiris (Fall Bay)
• Scavenger (3 Cliffs)
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head)
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai)
• Questor (Wyndcliffe)

North Wales:
• Green Slab (Gogarth)
• Piggott’s Climb and Curving Crack (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu)
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan)
• Direct Route (Dinas Mot)
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan)
• Grim Wall (Craig Bwlch y Moch)
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof)
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt)

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Nea (Clogwyn y Grochan), Grey Slab (Glyder Fawr)

Peak District:
• Mississippi Buttress Direct, High Neb Buttress and Fern Crack (Stanage)
• Nozag (Castle Naze)
• Valkyrie (Roaches)
• Tower Face (Laddow)
• The Mall (Millstone)
• Golden Yardstick and Cataclysm (Wildcat)
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud)
• The File (Higgar Tor)

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Topsail and Sail Buttress (Birchen), Central Climb (Hen Cloud), Via Dolorosa and Hargreave’s Original (Stanage)
And at VS in Hard Rock:
Chee Tor Girdle (Chee Tor)

Lake District and NW:
• Eliminate A and Murray’s Direct (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer)
• Haste Not and The Gordian Knot (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab and Mickledore Grooves (Scafell)
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag)
• North-West Climb (Pillar)
• Eagle Front (Buttermere)
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock)
• Jean Jeanie and Harijan (Trowbarrow)
• Flake Crack (Helsby)

In addition the following VS routes feature in Hard Rock:
Engineer’s Slabs (Gable), The Crack (Gimmer)

North Yorkshire and the NE:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe)
• Gladiator (Penyghent)
• Birch Tree Wall (Brimham)
• Tacitation (Kyloe Crag)

Scotland:
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer)
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova)
• Black Mamba and The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Scabbard (Creag a'choire Etchachan)
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain)
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh)
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain)
• Black Pig and Black Gold (Reiff)
• Pain Pillar (Hawkcraig)
• Fionn Buttress (Carnmore Crag)
• Whether Wall/Wither Whether (the Cobbler)
• Jamie Jampot (Suidhe Biorach)
• Shangri-La (Sron na Ciche)
• Grand Diedre (Sgurr Alastair)

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
The Long Climb (Ben Nevis), The Chasm (Buachaille Etive Mor), Clean Sweep (Hell’s Lum), Ardgarten Arete (The Cobbler)
And at VS in Hard Rock:
Raven’s Gully (Buachaille Etive Mor), South Ridge Direct (Cir Mhor)

Northern Ireland:
• The Fence and Girona (Fairhead)


John_Hat - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Agree with Birch Tree wall, You appear to have a (very) low number of Yorkshire/Northwest routes! I'd also submit...

Crack of Doom, Almscliffe or Piggot's Stride, Almscliffe

Plus worth mentioning

Central Climb, Hen Cloud

Rob's Crack, Fairy Cave Quarry.
John_Hat - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to John_Hat:

Whoops, ignore Central Climb, already in prevoius book!
ads.ukclimbing.com
Dave Ferguson - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> Also any more thoughts on the best VS choice at Gogarth? Is there really a Gogarth VS worthy of the list? It is so much better at HVS of course.
>
as mentioned before Green Light gets my vote but seeing as its not particularly popular, I suggest
Bezel, Big Gut, Lighthouse arete or Rap
Green Slab is a fantastic adventure but the quality of the climbing is not that great.

However any of these knock spots off the suggestions in the peak and to not have a Gogarth route in your list would be unthinkable - wouldn't it?
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to John_Hat:
Central Climb (Hen Cloud) is there in the Classic Rock routes. I'll add the Almscliff routes to bring up the 100, they look good and I agree Yorks & NE was looking thin.
Rob's Crack is quite a nice climb in a better setting it might make the grade, but I reckon it comes up short in this company.
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Dave Ferguson:
My personal leaning is towards Lighthouse Arete, but that is just going on photos and descriptions ...I am relying on Gogarth veterans to help me out here.
wilkie14c - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator <from earlier!>:
I've a mate who has published a book and no doubt has contacts, in fact he is writing his second book. He's always looking for projects and these usually die a death when figures hit the table. I know for a fact he is looking at the possibility of something climbing related <he's into sailing normally but wants a change> and would be interested in this list. I fear though the cost of publishing a coffee table tome would be astronimcal for say 1000 copies. Would take a while too, 2/3 years maybe....
Very nice thought though. I'm seeing him next week and will throw this into the ring!
Keep up the admin, we don't need a book, we'll just print off the final list :-)
Pagan - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Lighthouse Arete is rubbish compared to Green Slab. Saying the climbing isn't that good is missing the point - it's the best VS adventure I can think of.
victim of mathematics - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to JDal:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
>
> OI!!!! Wilfred Prickles is VS in the latest definitive guide. And rightly so I think. Which alleged guide are you using?? ;)
>

Rockfax Northern England, which is the most recent guide that I know of.

> Anyhow I think Tacitation should go in, Prickles is shorter, not so well protected and has less variety.

I probably have an unfair prejudice against Tacitation as I fell off the start several times before finally getting it. It's just a bit unbalanced in terms of difficulty. Wilfred Prickles is probably VS to solo, but it's definitely worth HVS for the lead...

jezb1 - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Not done many at Gogarth, but thought Lighthouse Arete Direct was pretty good and a definite Gogarth must do.
victim of mathematics - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Cataclysm is also HVS in Northern Limestone, and two routes from Wildcat is surely over-egging the pudding.

More routes from Yorkshire would be good, Frankland's Green Crack is excellent :)

Surely we need some representation from Lancashire quarries, as grim as they are...

Oh, and Hairy Mary is a better route at Suidhe Biorach than Jamie Jampot for my money.

Sterling work sir.
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Cataclysm is also HVS in Northern Limestone, and two routes from Wildcat is surely over-egging the pudding.
>
Sounds fair enough to me, Cataclysm goes.

> More routes from Yorkshire would be good, Frankland's Green Crack is excellent :)

Well the pigeon crap is legendary! Definitely looking at including something from Almscliff though.
>
> Surely we need some representation from Lancashire quarries, as grim as they are...
>
Hmmm, is the climbing good enough to excuse the setting? Rob's Crack just missed out for the same reason, still if there is enough of a clamour one or both of the Anglezarke routes from earlier versions of the list could be reinstated. What would your preference be?

> Oh, and Hairy Mary is a better route at Suidhe Biorach than Jamie Jampot for my money.
>
Don't think you are the first to say this, maybe both deserve selection.

> Sterling work sir.

Why, Thank You!

sjminfife - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I'll vote for Franklands Green Crack.
sjm
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to sjminfife: Looks like the Green (and white) Crack is going in then!
sjminfife - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I don't remember the pigeons,I remember them in Parsons Chimney but not Franklands.I remember abbing down to retrieve a Moac!.
sjm
pec on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I think the inclusion of routes already in Classic and Hard Rock is sensible to make a top 100 rather than an "almost top 80 but with some great routes missed out".

I also wouldn't worry too much about what grade the latest guide gives a route or if the Rockfax says this and the BMC says that etc. If a route has been an acknowledged classic at VS for years I'd include it unless its physically altered to make it harder. They'll all be HVS in 20 years anyway!

Finally I still think Yorkshire is underrepresented being one of the major climbing areas that it is.
Pursued by a bear - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Three thoughts from the latest list.

Pembroke looks under-represented with just one route.
If we're only having one route from Tremadog, I think there are more deserving cases than Grim Wall.
No-one else want to speak up in favour of a route in mid-wales? Acheron was my nomination a while back.

Great thread this.

T.
Rog Wilko on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to JimmyKay:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> I've only climbed 2 routes out of the 80 suggested....

Well lucky you! Think of all the joy you have ahead of you!
TRip - on 14 Nov 2010
Green Slab in Mousetrap Zawn?!

It's a dangerous and loose tottering pile of rubble.

There have been some very good and some fairly good recommendations to far.

I remember chatting to Ken Wilson about this gap in Hard Rock series once. He said (shouted) that he had planned to produce a volume called, "The Very Severes," which would include 100 or so classics from MVS to HVS.

Square Cut Chimney/Medusa Wall at Esk Buttress hasn't been nominated yet.

What about Rough Wall at Brimham?

Cheers,

Tom

Hannah Appleton - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
The Genie and No Blue Skies in Sneachda
The Citadel on the Shelter Stone
Trap Face Route Direct on Sron na Ciche
Stegosaurus and Left at Cummingston
Puffin Attack, Latheronwheel

Hannah
Rog Wilko on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) Three thoughts from the latest list.
>
> Pembroke looks under-represented with just one route.
>
I think it's probably true that though there are a lot of good VSs in Pembroke there aren't many really outstanding routes at the grade - may have to step up to HVS for the real crackers. Same goes for Yorkshire I think. The question also arises are we trying to get "fair" representation, or are we just wanting the best?
RossJ - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
There is at least 1 classic VS route in Shetland worth adding however the voting will always be a challenge as it has seen much fewer ascents:

Perfect Groove VS 4c, Eshaness. Originally given HVS 5a **** by Dave Turnball. Ascents of it are now in double figures and consensus now puts it at VS 4c and a truly fine route.

A second contender is the remote Cheshire Cat VS 4c on Faither Stack. Solid clean rock on a sea stack (yes really), unlike the Old Man of Stour IMHO, but the route has only received two ascents to date so can't in any seriousness make this list.
RossJ - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Hannah Appleton:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> The Genie and No Blue Skies in Sneachda
> The Citadel on the Shelter Stone
> Trap Face Route Direct on Sron na Ciche
> Stegosaurus and Left at Cummingston
> Puffin Attack, Latheronwheel
>
> Hannah

A few suprising suggestions here Hannah. Puffin Attack is a nice wee route but that's all. You might at a push squeeze a Cummingston VS into the top 80 in Scotland, but have to disagree on the UK side.

ads.ukclimbing.com
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko:
> (In reply to Pursued by a bear)
> [...]
> I think it's probably true that though there are a lot of good VSs in Pembroke there aren't many really outstanding routes at the grade - may have to step up to HVS for the real crackers.

There are 2 Pembroke Routes on the list: Blue Sky and Armorican, I think these are the stand out VS's in the area. I have a personal affection for Aries at Initiation Slabs ...but this is an esoteric choice that I realise doesn't really merit the main list.

>Same goes for Yorkshire I think. The question also arises are we trying to get "fair" representation, or are we just wanting the best?

It is an interesting question you raise, I think it is something of a balancing act between the two. With all the new suggestions raining in I'm going to need to sift again. One thought, to be consistent with Classic and Hard Rock perhaps the Fairhead routes should be left out.

The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to RossJ:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)

> Perfect Groove VS 4c, Eshaness. Originally given HVS 5a **** by Dave Turnball. Ascents of it are now in double figures and consensus now puts it at VS 4c and a truly fine route.

This looks like a great climb, although such a new and remote climb would be a controversial addition.
RossJ - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Stick with the title i.e. in the UK. Let's not start leaving Fairhead out if any of the routes should be in.
The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> If we're only having one route from Tremadog, I think there are more deserving cases than Grim Wall.

Grim Wall seems to have garnered the most support so far, Tremadog is another area (like Gogarth and Pembroke) that is better at HVS on the whole.



The Ivanator - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to RossJ:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Stick with the title i.e. in the UK. Let's not start leaving Fairhead out if any of the routes should be in.

Having not done Girona and the Fence (and not knowing too much about them) are they dead certs or marginal choices?
TraceyR on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: A few more for you to be going on with:

Pink 'un - Saddle Head; Armorican - Craig Caerfai; Scavenger - Three Cliffs; Rob's Crack - Fairy Cave; Clarion - Avon Gorge; Catch - Crickmail Point; The Cracks - Mother Carey's; One less white Niger - Shorncliff; State of Independence - Shorncliff; Iron Curtain - Shorncliff.

Well, I thought they were all good - but just my opinion.
RossJ - on 14 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to RossJ)
> Perfect Groove

> This looks like a great climb, although such a new and remote climb would be a controversial addition.

A remote climb should not be controversial. Happy to realise that the lack of traffic by its location will mean that you may never get a consensus, but then this is the challenge in compiling such a list.

Re.Grim Wall - I have vague recollections of this been good.

Fairhead - I have climbed The Fence and Girona, but my memory isn't clear enough to say whether they should be in. My point is lets not leave somewhere out if we are calling this VS routes in the UK, as Fairhead is in the UK.
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to RossJ:
Re. Perfect Groove
Yes, controversial was a poorly chosen word! I have a hunch it should be in, but the disputed grade is a slight issue.
jonah jones - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to TraceyR:
Like the list - have had this discusion many times on the walk out - always along the lines of 10 HS/MVS's to get in the groove, 80 VS's, 10 easyish HVS's to go for.

Agree with lots already on the list but also think,

Shadrach is alot better than Grim Wall at Tremadog (not climbed Creag Dhu Wall Direct or Striptease - but they look good).
Think that the best VS on Gimmer is Whits End (not the direct) - brilliant climb.

The ones I still have on my to-do list that look good / but are not on your list are,

Sensible Shoes - Robins Rocks in Cornwall
Benny - Swanage
Central Route / Scarface - Llech Dhu in Snowdonia
Brandywine - Newlands in the Lakes
Jersey - just got the guide book there's lots of great looking VS's there

Great thread (need a HVS one next).

jonah

The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to TraceyR:
Armorican and Scavenger are both in. I think Shorn Cliff is yet another place that excels at HVS but is slightly less distinguished at VS. Laughing Cavaliers is probably a top end VS though and if it were ever regraded then that would be a strong candidate.
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to jonah jones:
> Great thread (need a HVS one next).
>
Yes, it would be good ...however I'm not volunteering to compile it!! :-)

allysingo - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to jonah jones:
I too think Shadrach is a better climb than Grim Wall, particularly with The Brothers start, the pitches seem more balanced at VS.
Kestrel Crack should also perhaps be considered (although I say this as one who failed miserably on a bad day)
RossJ - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to RossJ)
> Re. Perfect Groove
> Yes, controversial was a poorly chosen word! I have a hunch it should be in, but the disputed grade is a slight issue.

The grade for Perfect Groove is not disputed. The consensus amongst local climbers is that it is VS 4c. It is also accepted that the distinction between VS and HVS is less defined for someone climbing at Dave's capacity. It still remains in the UKC logbook as HVS as Al as the moderator for Eshaness hasn't updated the crag details since 2006. There are now some 20 plus extra routes climbed on these cliffs, but I digress from the tread ;o)...
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
No major revisions, but last update for today (actually I’ve noticed it’s tomorrow already!), exactly 100 routes …although the Gimmer and Cobbler combinations could be regarded as single routes leaving 2 spaces.

South West 15 (2):
• Silhouette Arete and Tensor II (Swanage)
• Little Brown Jug and Anvil Chorus (Bosigran)
• Diocese and South Face Direct (Chair Ladder)
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff)
• Lost Horizon and Kinky Boots (Baggy Point)
• Albion and Diamond Solitaire (Lundy)
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon)
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh)
• Leviathan (Dewerstone)
• Whitt (Symonds Yat)

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Piton Climb (Avon), Climber’s Club Ordinary (The Dewerstone)

South Wales 5:
• Osiris (Fall Bay)
• Scavenger (3 Cliffs)
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head)
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai)
• Questor (Wyndcliffe)

North Wales 10 (2):
• Green Slab (Gogarth)
• Piggott’s Climb and Curving Crack (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu)
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech)
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan)
• Direct Route (Dinas Mot)
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan)
• Grim Wall (Craig Bwlch y Moch)
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof)
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt)

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Nea (Clogwyn y Grochan), Grey Slab (Glyder Fawr)

Peak District 10 (6):
• Mississippi Buttress Direct, High Neb Buttress and Fern Crack (Stanage)
• Nozag (Castle Naze)
• Valkyrie (Roaches)
• Tower Face (Laddow)
• The Mall (Millstone)
• Golden Yardstick (Wildcat)
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud)
• The File (Higgar Tor)

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Topsail and Sail Buttress (Birchen), Central Climb (Hen Cloud), Via Dolorosa and Hargreave’s Original (Stanage)
And at VS in Hard Rock:
Chee Tor Girdle (Chee Tor)

Lake District and NW 15 (2):
• Eliminate A and Murray’s Direct (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer)
• Haste Not and The Gordian Knot (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab and Mickledore Grooves (Scafell)
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag)
• North-West Climb (Pillar)
• Eagle Front (Buttermere)
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock)
• Jean Jeanie and Harijan (Trowbarrow)
• Flake Crack (Helsby)

In addition the following VS routes feature in Hard Rock:
Engineer’s Slabs (Gable), The Crack (Gimmer)

North Yorkshire and the NE (5):
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe)
• Frankland’s Green Crack (Almscliff)
• Gladiator (Penyghent)
• Birch Tree Wall (Brimham)
• Tacitation (Kyloe Crag)

Scotland 20 (6):
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer)
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova)
• Black Mamba and The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Scabbard (Creag a'choire Etchachan)
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain)
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh)
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain)
• Black Pig and Black Gold (Reiff)
• Pain Pillar (Hawkcraig)
• Fionn Buttress (Carnmore Crag)
• Whether Wall/Wither Whether (the Cobbler)
• Jamie Jampot and Hairy Mary (Suidhe Biorach)
• Shangri-La (Sron na Ciche)
• Grand Diedre (Sgurr Alastair)
• Perfect Groove (Eshaness Lighthouse)

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
The Long Climb (Ben Nevis), The Chasm (Buachaille Etive Mor), Clean Sweep (Hell’s Lum), Ardgarten Arete (The Cobbler)
And at VS in Hard Rock:
Raven’s Gully (Buachaille Etive Mor), South Ridge Direct (Cir Mhor)

Northern Ireland 2:
• The Fence and Girona (Fairhead)


Ann S on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Surprised no one has yet mentioned Mickledore Grooves on Scafell East buttress-one of the best VS's I've done albeit as second.
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Ann S: It's in there!
allysingo - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Ann S:
Should've gone to Specsavers
Ann S on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to allysingo:

Optition to Polish customer-'Can you read the chart please'. Polish customer-'Read it-I know him.'
Doug on 15 Nov 2010
Given that Scotland is a huge area (equivalent to lumping 2 or 3 of the others together), surely it should have more than 1/5 of the routes ?
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Doug: I have made efforts to redress this balance somewhat, and Scotland does now have just over a quarter of the routes (26/100).
I also feel recognition of the popularity of the more accessible (for most) areas south of the border has to come into the equation.
This is not a statement that the climbing is superior, but does reflect that it is more widely known and appreciated amongst the climbing community.
The proportion of Scottish Routes in the selection is at least as generous as in Classic and Hard Rock.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Euge - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Easy.. THE GROOVE,Dunkeld
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Euge: Looks like a good call, likely to make the next version of the list. I think it is getting close now!
sjminfife - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: The Groove is a great route. I'd still like to see something from the Aberdeen sea cliffs,Pobble or The Weight more to represent the great variety that exists in our climbing than anything else.
sjm
GrahamD - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I'm sure that its been mentioned before, but the hard/classic/extreme rock series are NOT a list of the top routes by any general concensus - they are a compilation of personal choices from individual climbers and hence we expect some quirkiness and obscure routes - a big part of the appeal IMO. Hence routes like Devils Chimney on Lundy might be a better choice than the 'obvious' ones.
Ian Jones on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Bret (rock god))
> [...]
>
> So you want to rename it The Peaks District?

Think you just proved your point there.

So many mentions for Botterill's Slab (including a few misspellings) and yet no votes for Mickledore Grooves.

And, yes, Tremadoc is that good.
But Scratch Arete must deserve HVS surely?

How about Sabre Cut?
a lakeland climber on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to GrahamD:

I believe that much of the choice of the routes in Hard Rock was down to the quality of the articles, though certain routes obviously "picked themselves" - Cenotaph Corner for example. In addition, one of Ken's stated aims was to get people to climb more widely in the UK, even if the individual routes at times left something to be desired - having possibly the best (Shibboleth) and worst (Raven's Gully) routes next to each other must surely have been a joke?

In the case of Extreme Rock, there was a list circulating in the years prior to its publication which pretty well became the list of routes in the book, possibly one or two of the then new sports climbs got added.

To my mind some of the suggested routes are a bit "odd" - I wouldn't have said anything at Castle Naze for example would warrant its inclusion in such a book.

I'd add the VS grooves on Creagan Choire Etchachan - Dagger & Scabbard (?)to the list.

ALC
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Purple Pimpernel:
Mickledore Grooves IS IN! Is it typed in an invisible font? You are not the first to miss it. Sabre Cut is there too. Tremadog is great, but as others have pointed out the best routes are not at VS.
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> I'm sure that its been mentioned before, but the hard/classic/extreme rock series are NOT a list of the top routes by any general concensus - they are a compilation of personal choices from individual climbers and hence we expect some quirkiness and obscure routes - a big part of the appeal IMO. Hence routes like Devils Chimney on Lundy might be a better choice than the 'obvious' ones.

You raise an interesting point. Any selection obviously (to a lesser or greater degree) holds an element of personal preference. I have not stuck religiously to vote order in compiling the list or there would be less from Scotland and more from the Peak for starters. I am not enough of an expert to make a UK wide selection without some help though ...I have done my best to find out more about the suggestions put forward when assessing their worthiness for the list. I'm not sure the intention is 100% to replicate the Classic/Hard Rock format although some of the guiding principles there have been adhered to ...I think the list is a good encouragement to VS climbers to spread their net a little wider.
Doug on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to a lakeland climber: Scabard is already listed, is it better than Dijbangi ?(how do you spell it ?)
fried - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Come on! Get the book together while your on your tour.
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to a lakeland climber:
> (In reply to GrahamD)
having possibly the best (Shibboleth) and worst (Raven's Gully) routes next to each other must surely have been a joke?
>
Yes, Raven's Gully I can't rewrite Hard Rock so it's found its way into the top 100 VS routes! It is like a stain on the list! Hopefully someone will turn up and sing its praises and restore my faith in its presence.
>
> I'd add the VS grooves on Creagan Choire Etchachan - Dagger & Scabbard (?)to the list.
>
Scabbard is in there!

The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to fried: I'm starting to feel like I'm getting more and more committed to this project ...drawn in like a moth to the flame. I'd like to climb with a range of people and get them to contribute and maybe have an section that profiles the partners I climbed with. I may even try to persuade Robert Macfarlane out of climbing retirement and get him back on VS territory ...I have walked and swum with him in support of one of his book projects.
John_Hat - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to a lakeland climber:
> (In reply to GrahamD)
>
> To my mind some of the suggested routes are a bit "odd" - I wouldn't have said anything at Castle Naze for example would warrant its inclusion in such a book.
>

I must admit, having done Nosag, I wouldn't put it in my list of top VS's.

It is peaceful pottering climbing in a photogenic situation, but I wouldn't call it special - I thought it was incredibly easy for the grade for starters.

On the other hand, other people do, and it would be boring if we were all the same. I tend to prefer routes that most climbers file under "interesting", "entertaining" or "exciting".
Dave Garnett - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I've been thinking about what my most memorable grit VS might be and, rather to my surprise, I keep coming up with Apple Arete at Gardoms for quality and line.

Bachelor's Climb doesn't really grab me, but it suffers by the rather unfair comparison with the much harder BLH.
a lakeland climber on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

> I'd add the VS grooves on Creagan Choire Etchachan - Dagger & Scabbard (?)to the list.
>
>Scabbard is in there!

Oops! Managed to skip past that one!

Your most recent list doesn't have Mur y Niwl in the N.Wales section, though it has been mentioned.

Another one that shouldn't be in there is Gladiator on Pen y Ghent - it's just a short variation finish to Red Pencil, admittedly it's the direct line but other than that it doesn't have much going for it.

Yorkshire grit: Birch Tree Wall (Brimham); Z-climb (Almscliff); Laughing Gas (Rylstone) or that arete on Simon Seat - can't remember the name.

Lakes: It would be nice if there was something that wasn't on the usual list of crags but I have to admit most of my suggestions wouldn't merit their own chapter.
Communist Convert (Raven Thirlmere)
Delilah: (High crag, buttermere) - in fact a chapter on the Bill Peascod "women" routes would be fine.
Rake End Wall (Pavey Ark)
Square Chimney/Medusa (Esk Buttress)

Arran: Isn't there a big VS on the crag with Brachristochrone (Or whatever it's called/spelt) on - Beinn Mheadhoin (sp?). Not climbed there myself but have walked past it and the routes on that pillar look amazing.

Without the guide to hand, are there any decent VSs in the coires of Beinn a Bhuird? You could have a chapter on those.

ALC
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to a lakeland climber:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> Your most recent list doesn't have Mur y Niwl in the N.Wales section, though it has been mentioned.
>
I'd like Mur y Niwl in, but it gets HVS in most guides these days and was eliminated for that reason.

> Another one that shouldn't be in there is Gladiator on Pen y Ghent - it's just a short variation finish to Red Pencil, admittedly it's the direct line but other than that it doesn't have much going for it.
>
> Yorkshire grit: Birch Tree Wall (Brimham); Z-climb (Almscliff); Laughing Gas (Rylstone) or that arete on Simon Seat - can't remember the name.
>
I'll look at these as potential replacements for Gladiator ...Birch Tree Wall is there already.

> Lakes: It would be nice if there was something that wasn't on the usual list of crags but I have to admit most of my suggestions wouldn't merit their own chapter.
> Communist Convert (Raven Thirlmere)
> Delilah: (High crag, buttermere) - in fact a chapter on the Bill Peascod "women" routes would be fine.
> Rake End Wall (Pavey Ark)
> Square Chimney/Medusa (Esk Buttress)

Yes, something from Pavey in particular would be good ...it is getting hard to shoehorn stuff in now though!
>
> Arran: Isn't there a big VS on the crag with Brachristochrone (Or whatever it's called/spelt) on - Beinn Mheadhoin (sp?). Not climbed there myself but have walked past it and the routes on that pillar look amazing.
>
I'll try and research these and see if there are any obvious contenders, if anyone has route names that would be appreciated.

> Without the guide to hand, are there any decent VSs in the coires of Beinn a Bhuird? You could have a chapter on those.
>
As above!


The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> I've been thinking about what my most memorable grit VS might be and, rather to my surprise, I keep coming up with Apple Arete at Gardoms for quality and line.
>
A worthy proposal, perhaps one of the Stanage routes could be sacrificed to squeeze this in, or as you mention Bachelors (this did have quite a few advocates earlier in the thread though).
a lakeland climber on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Unless something has come off Mur y Niwl it's bog standard VS - exposed, yes but it's not HVS.

I'd omit the routes that are already in either Classic Rock or Hard Rock. Unless you absolutely must have no more than 80-100 routes then I don't see why you can't include what you deem necessary. Extreme Rock has 160 or more.

ALC
Richard Baynes - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to a lakeland climber: I nwas just about to say Mur Y Niwl, never HVS: I havbe climbed it, found it straightforeqard, therefor=VS. I think Tony Mowlem would be rightly disappointed if it wasn't on the list.
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to a lakeland climber:
If I'm going to actually get around and climb all the routes I think a ceiling is needed! It also brings an element of balancing different merits that I find quite pleasing. If the tour goes ahead it may lead to more substantial revision in the light of personal experience ...but the list is certainly a good starting point for my quest!
ads.ukclimbing.com
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Richard Baynes:
> (In reply to a lakeland climber) I nwas just about to say Mur Y Niwl, never HVS: I havbe climbed it, found it straightforeqard, therefor=VS. I think Tony Mowlem would be rightly disappointed if it wasn't on the list.

Ground Up go for HVS 5a, Rockfax VS 5a, UKC VS 4c, the Climbers Club Carneddau guide is older but also goes for VS 4c so I think there is enough justification to restore it to the list ...I guess I'll find out how VSish it is once I get on it!
gribble - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Bachelors has to stay in - arguably the best VS on grit! No one else think Phoenix Climb at Shining Clough is worth a shout? Or maybe it's too out of the way for most...
Skyfall - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to a lakeland climber:

I'd go with Delilah as well - great climb. I'd like to do it when the rocks' completely dry next time though ;)

What do you think of my suggestions of Dexter Wall, Sobrenada and Troutdale Pinnacle Direct? On reflection, great climbs though they are, perhaps not really up there with the best?

Not done Rake End Wall - though a friend of mine said it was pretty rubbish. Not sure of his reasoning but not been drawn to do it, perhaps unfortunately.
Richard Baynes - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Obsession on Cadair in yet? Classic, great location...
Skyfall - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I think Tremadog is an under-rated crag nowadays, though it will probably regain some popularity with the new guide - even with the awful cover.. ;) It's great at VS and HVS.

I would put both Grim Wall and One Step in the Clouds as two of my favourite VS's anywhere. Personally, if I had to choose a desert island climb, of the two I would go for One Step. I don't know why it has become fashionable to knock it - maybe because the name is verging on being hyperbolic. However, to my mind, One Step is a wonderfully balanced route with interest on every pitch and is one of the few routes I really enjoy repeating. Yes, it's never too desparate but who said a great VS has to be! The v groove requires a confident approach and a bit of 3-D thinking, not just jamming technique. The superbly delicate "one step" pitch (best run together with the previous one) is a joy, particularly if you stick to the task and finish trending rightwards up the steepening slab/wall rather than slinking off left. The wonderful flake to romp up to finish. Not many routes are better than that imho.

Scratch doesn't quite make the cut because the opening pitch (excluding the scramble to the "real" start) is not particularly memorable. But the main corner crack pitch and traveerse out onto the headwall is awesome at VS.

Shadrach - ugh.

Offwidth - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

You need something else from the Peak Moors: choose from Money Lender's Crack on Nether Tor; Phoenix Climb on Shining Clough; Fairy Nuff on Standing Stones; (all way better than say Nozag and Fern Crack). Apple Arete is lovely but not good enough for a top 80 (and HS for some).
victim of mathematics - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to various people:

The Ivanator - I've only done Metamorphosis at Anglezarke. I had to back off Samarkand after getting cut by some broken glass lying on a ledge near the start and bleeding profusely. I guess that tells you something about Lancashire climbing!

The question about routes which now get HVS is a tricky one, but the ones discussed on this thread that I've done have all seemed like fair upgrades. Hell, Tatra's on the list and everybody I've ever met who's done that agrees it's a total sandbag. We don't need any more. Don't led grumpy old traditionalists who still don't really believe there's any grades above Very Severe (rubbers) cloud your judgement.

I've done both Girona and The Fence. Girona is pretty good climbing which covers some very impressive ground and is probably worthy of inclusion. The Fence is probably the best single pitch VS I've ever climbed, so it definitely wants to be in. The Black Hand, which is next to The Fence is a better route than Girona, but Girona gives a better flavour of what climbing at Fairhead is all about.

As for Tremadog. I haven't done Shadrach and Scratch Arete is definitely HVS (just!). Grim Wall is better than One Step In The Clouds though. Plumbline is a hidden gem. Is Creag Dhu Wall Direct not supposed to be excellent? I haven't done it. Striptease is a good shout, but pretty full bore for VS (I wouldn't argue with HVS).

Tom Ripley - Green Slab is emphatically neither dangerous nor a pile of rubble. You were clearly either having a bad day or have no concept of what constitutes choss. As has been said, I can't think of a better adventure route at VS. You show me somebody who thinks there's a cooler place to climb and I'll show you somebody who's never been to Mousetrap Zawn!

Jonah Jones - Sensible Shoes at Robin's Rocks is a uniquely odd route (especially if you ignore Rockfax's advice to abseil down the first few metres and climb down it instead, that way you finish the route right next to your belayer!) but it's probably not good enough. It's worth doing though, just mind the rope drag!

Allysingo - Kestrel Cracks is HVS in the new Tremadog guide.

GrahamD - A boulder has moved at the start of The Devil's Chimney, and it's now HVS 5b, which is a shame as it looks totally amazing (and like it might fall down at any moment).

John_Hat - I'm with you on Nozag, it's the best VS at the crag, but it's not that good.
fried - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to fried) I'm starting to feel like I'm getting more and more committed to this project ...drawn in like a moth to the flame. I'd like to climb with a range of people and get them to contribute and maybe have an section that profiles the partners I climbed with. I may even try to persuade Robert Macfarlane out of climbing retirement and get him back on VS territory ...I have walked and swum with him in support of one of his book projects.

I remember when I started climbing I would get 'Hard rock' 'Extreme rock' and 'Classic rock' out of my local library on rotation, when I see the prices they now change hands for I wished I'd pinched them :)

I'm sure something well written would be fantastically well recieved.

pec on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Offwidth:
>
> You need something else from the Peak Moors: choose from Money Lender's Crack on Nether Tor; Phoenix Climb on Shining Clough; Fairy Nuff on Standing Stones; (all way better than say Nozag and Fern Crack). Apple Arete is lovely but not good enough for a top 80 (and HS for some).
>


I'd also like to see some moorland gritstone included, many of the routes there are just as good as those on the Eastern edges, there's just not as many of them, they're wet more often and people can't be bothered to walk that far. Perhaps their inclusion would encourage people to visit them.

I'd agree that Phoenix climb and Fairy Nuff are better than Nozag which is quite unmemorable to me. Is Tower Face at Laddow still in there? It was proposed earlier, perhaps its just too green these days, not been there for a long time so I can't remember.
Wilbur - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to sjminfife:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) Another try for Route 2 at Diabeg,I'm not sure its really harder than Albion.....
> sjm


Definitely HVS...
Wilbur - on 15 Nov 2010
On the subject of tremadog.. Meshach?
Wilbur - on 15 Nov 2010
Is Silhouette arete really that good? granted it's the only route i've done in the ruckle but it's never in the same class as Valkyrie, Mississipi Buttress direct, Kirkus route etc etc etc
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Wilbur:
> Is Silhouette arete really that good? granted it's the only route i've done in the ruckle but it's never in the same class as Valkyrie, Mississipi Buttress direct, Kirkus route etc etc etc

Well I liked it! Thought the first pitch was pleasant (doesn't get a great press in the guide) and the second is pretty sensational territory for VS with some good climbing (the traverse, the move onto the arete and the pull through the upper overhang). Swanage is a major venue and Boulder Ruckle is the premier crag there, so I'm inclined to think the selection is justified. If only the bottom pitch of the Heidelberg Creature led to the top pitch of Silhouette Arete, then you would have a VS worthy of top10 nevermind top 100.
Wilbur - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

fair enough. I'll concede that the second pitch is well positioned and memorable for VS
victim of mathematics - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Wilbur:

Meschach, whilst better than any of the VSs nearby, is definitely HVS. The last three guidebooks will bear that one out I think.

I seem to have been reduced to a miserable bugger who just spoils everyone's fun by complaining that their favourite VSs are all now HVS :(

I've just re-read my original list, and I'd reiterate the case for including Pinnacle Face at Craig Lough (which is substantially better than Tacitation I thought) and Bucket Wall at Juggy Point on Range West (which is totally brilliant and very improbable), although I suspect the latter sees few ascents.
SCC - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:

> (In reply to Wilbur)
>
> I seem to have been reduced to a miserable bugger...

Don't worry mate, it's not a recent development. ;-)

To the OP - great thread, I for one will be printing off the finished list (or at least the latest revision) to give me inspiration for places to visit next year.

Si
Skyfall - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:

> Meschach, whilst better than any of the VSs nearby, is definitely HVS. The last three guidebooks will bear that one out I think.

I agree it's very much HVS but I completely disagree about it being better than the VS's. I would say that Grim Wall is the equal of, and in some ways better than, Meshach. And by inference (if you read my last post), One Step is even better. Merlin Direct, although HVS as well, I might have agreed with however....
LakesWinter on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to SCC:

Hmmmm also you should include the odd esoteric route to make people cast their nets somewhat wider.

I'd remove gargoyle flake at bamford as the rock is very flakey at the crag in general and wont stand up well to greatly increased traffic on the crag - lots of bits have gone awol over the last few years anyway. How about Phoenix climb on Shining Clough and Misty Wall on Kinder North?

LakesWinter on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to JonC: I think Grim Wall is better than One Step, One step is all about a short bit of exposed climbing and is otherwise easy and easily escapable, not even 3* IMHO
JDal - on 15 Nov 2010
..> I've just re-read my original list, and I'd reiterate the case for including Pinnacle Face at Craig Lough (which is substantially better than Tacitation I thought)...

You're weird you peakies, it's a one move wonder - no better/worse than Tigers Overhang on Peel crag next door and IMHO neither as good as Overhanging Crack on Peel (MVS).Much more photogenic.

To OP - cracking thread.
SCrossley on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Trouble with this list is that they are nearly all 3* classics and hardly need anymore traffic, perhaps a list of the best 1* or if really brave no star VS`s would be more useful to people, routes with a certain character and story.
Lord of Starkness - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to JonC:

I found Rake End Wall to be good value and very pleasant when I did it many moons ago.

At the time it was one of the five recommended VS's in Langdale -- the others were Haste Not, F Route, Grooves Traverse and Deer Bield Crack (before the crag fell down)
Skyfall - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to MattG:

> One step is all about a short bit of exposed climbing and is otherwise easy and easily escapable, not even 3* IMHO

Simply not true. The v groove is quite interesting and stops many people. The "main" pitch is actually fairly sustained from the moment you leave the ledge and many 3 star routes are just as easily escapeable. In fact, other than the possibility of sneaking left below the top of the main pitch (maybe you did this if you think it's short...?), I fail to see how it is easily escapeable. I think you are just one of these people who think it's trendy to knock One Step ;)
Lord of Starkness - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to JDal:
> ..> Pinnacle Face at Craig Lough .... it's a one move wonder

I agree --once you find the hidden hold it's all over - but even so it's a good route that captures the atmosphere of the crag.

The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to sjc:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> Trouble with this list is that they are nearly all 3* classics and hardly need anymore traffic, perhaps a list of the best 1* or if really brave no star VS`s would be more useful to people, routes with a certain character and story.

Stars and lists always bring this issue up. I feel that in terms of broadening horizons lists can be a good thing, inspiring climbers to visit new areas. This often leads to return visits and it is then that the more esoteric gems emerge. The 1* list is an interesting proposal, but a different project altogether.
Pursued by a bear - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to sjc: But it is a very good list and one worth compiling. Even though I'm sure we could all quibble with some of the choices in the list as it approaches something like agreement, even though there's points like popularity and familiarity not necessarily being related to absolute merit, and regrading pushing things into and out of contention, it is still a list of some of the finest climbing in this country at a grade everyone can aspire to do, do or has once done.

Worth archiving somewhere, this one.

T.
victim of mathematics - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to sjc)
> [...]
>
> Stars and lists always bring this issue up. I feel that in terms of broadening horizons lists can be a good thing, inspiring climbers to visit new areas. This often leads to return visits and it is then that the more esoteric gems emerge. The 1* list is an interesting proposal, but a different project altogether.

A few years ago I started seriously trying to tick every route in the UK up to VS with 2 or more stars (there's over 3000 and I'm over 1/4 of the way through so far if you're interested). I was initially a little concerned that I'd end up just going to the same crags over and over again to do the classics and never get to anywhere more obscure. In fact it's had quite the opposite effect and I've visited countless places I'd never have bothered with before.

As for a one or no star list, it sounds like a nice idea, but actually all you're looking for are routes which have been under-starred in guides, since if a one star route was actually that good it wouldn't be a one star route. You'd then get mired in a debate about routes which had been given one star in an old guide and subsequently recognised for what they are and up-starred in more recent guides. So I don't think it would be practical. A better idea to achieve the desired effect would be to collate a series of articles about obscure gems written by people with genuine affection for the routes.
victim of mathematics - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to JDal:

I thought Overhanging Crack was alright,but a bit underwhelming. Tiger's Overhang was similar to Pinnacle Face, but without the brilliant positions. I really like those two crags though, I reckon it's worthy of inclusion.
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics: That must be some logbook you are compiling! Thanks for all your input on this thread, revised list is just about ready to publish, watch this space!
kitkat78 - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Looked at this at the beginning of the weekend, and it's grown since!! It ocurred to me that there's nothing from the Mourne Mountains - having been there this summer I'd put in Agag's Wall at Lower Cove. If the list is partly about getting to new places for quality routes this would have my vote. The area is pretty stunning too - think an area the size of Stanage/Borrowdale valley, but with the crag to yourself... That's my opinon - anyone else agree (or disagree for that matter!).
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
There are a host of new suggestions, if I respond to all then the list becomes a sprawling mess. So I’ve gone for minimal revision, Mur y Niwl is reinstated on the strength of being VS in at least one recent guide (Rockfax) Pigott’s climb gives way (there are 2 other Cloggy routes). In the Peak Phoenix Climb replaces Fern Crack as Stanage is already well represented. Arete Direct at Simon’s Seat seems a stronger choice than Gladiator in North Yorkshire. In a further attempt to extend the Scottish representation The Groove at Dunkeld is included at the expense of Tensor II from the SW section.
Links to UKC log pages have also been added.

Ivan.

South West 14 (2):
• Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=14459
• Little Brown Jug http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=852 and Anvil Chorus http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=859 (Bosigran)
• Diocese http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1991 and South Face Direct http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1957 (Chair Ladder)
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2401
• Lost Horizon http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=389 and Kinkyboots http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=402 (Baggy Point)
• Albion http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33518 and Diamond Solitaire http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33740 (Lundy)
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=30748
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26052
• Leviathan (Dewerstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26062
• Whitt (Symonds Yat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34905

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Piton Climb (Avon), Climber’s Club Ordinary (The Dewerstone)

South Wales 5:
• Osiris (Fall Bay) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29499
• Scavenger (3 Cliffs) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8359
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24624
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2545
• Questor (Wyndcliffe) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33154

North Wales 11 (2):
• The Green Slab (Gogarth) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4381
• Curving Crack (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2180
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3183
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2238
• The Direct Route (Dinas Mot) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3259
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=50629
• Grim Wall (Craig Bwlch y Moch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2513
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2939
• Mur y Niwl (Craig Yr Ysfa) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29164
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2317

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Nea (Clogwyn y Grochan), Grey Slab (Glyder Fawr)

Peak District 10 (6):
• Mississippi Buttress Direct http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10252 and High Neb Buttress http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9995 (Stanage)
• Nozag (Castle Naze) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15938
• Valkyrie (Roaches) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16011
• Tower Face (Laddow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15807
• The Mall (Millstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10792
• Golden Yardstick (Wildcat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=22709
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16157
• Phoenix Climb (Shining Clough Rocks) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15051
• The File (Higgar Tor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=74758

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Topsail and Sail Buttress (Birchen), Central Climb (Hen Cloud), Via Dolorosa and Hargreave’s Original (Stanage)
And at VS in Hard Rock:
Chee Tor Girdle (Chee Tor)

Lake District and NW 15 (2):
• Eliminate A http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3348 and Murray’s Direct http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3364 (Dow)
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4183 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4193
• Haste Not http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9178 and The Gordian Knot http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9181 (White Ghyll)
• Botterill's Slab http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6978 and Mickledore Grooves http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7076 (Scafell)
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7542
• North-West Climb (Pillar) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6357
• Eagle Front (Buttermere) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3478
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1842
• Jean Jeanie http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=21673 and Harijan http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=21676 (Trowbarrow)
• Flake Crack (Helsby) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=19058

In addition the following VS routes feature in Hard Rock:
Engineer’s Slabs (Gable), The Crack (Gimmer)

North Yorkshire and the NE 5:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28506
• Frankland’s Green Crack (Almscliff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=57
• Arete Direct (Simons Seat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33810
• Birch Tree Wall (Brimham) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28051
• Tacitation (Kyloe Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=37790

Scotland 21 (6):
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=126708
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33056
• Black Mamba http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2977 and The Mousetrap http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2985 (Craig an Dubh Loch)
• Scabbard (Creag a'choire Etchachan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2961
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31326
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=40862
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=456
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7427
• Black Pig http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34969 and Black Gold http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34973 (Reiff)
• Pain Pillar (Hawkcraig) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31435
• Fionn Buttress (Carnmore Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1667
• Whether Wall/Wither Whether (the Cobbler) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8119 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8117
• Jamie Jampot http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=53382 and Hairy Mary http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=128236 (Suidhe Biorach)
• Shangri-La (Sron na Ciche) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38923
• Grand Diedre (Sgurr Alastair) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7436
• Perfect Groove (Eshaness Lighthouse) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=55077
• The Groove (Dunkeld, Craig a Barns) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3422

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
The Long Climb (Ben Nevis), The Chasm (Buachaille Etive Mor), Clean Sweep (Hell’s Lum), Ardgarten Arete (The Cobbler)
And at VS in Hard Rock:
Raven’s Gully (Buachaille Etive Mor), South Ridge Direct (Cir Mhor)

Northern Ireland 2:
• The Fence http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=51538 and Girona http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=36937 (Fairhead)


Michael Gordon - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Doug:
> (In reply to a lakeland climber) Scabard is already listed, is it better than Dijbangi ?(how do you spell it ?)

Personally I'd put Dagger as the best in that trilogy - one the most stunning corner pitches I've done. But then I'd also put it at HVS.
Hammy - on 15 Nov 2010
The list is looking good - whats your count looking like?? (open question!) I reckon I'm on 43 so lots to aspire to next year!
scott titt - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
A cracking thread and a super list, well done for keeping it up together (nearly-2 other Cloggy routes?)
It shows me how many good routes I still have left to climb.
Rog Wilko on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: To my shame I've never done the route but have heard very good reports of Clubfoot at Malham - possible Yorkshire entry?
DerwentDiluted - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

No mention yet of Suspension Flake! The Dartmoor poll fixers must be away!
Kipper - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to DerwentDiluted:
>
> No mention yet of Suspension Flake!

Wasn't this the No. 1 VS is some magazine?
DerwentDiluted - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Kipper:

About 10 yrs ago On The Edge mag ran a poll for the UKs best VS. Most of the selections were as above (excellent list), however the shock No 1 was Suspension Flake. On the strength of that I detoured to Hound Tor en route for Cornwall and did it, It took me less time to climb it than it took to put on my shoes. There was a hint of suspicion that the poll was rigged. Allegedly.
The Ivanator - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to scott titt:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> A cracking thread and a super list, well done for keeping it up together (nearly-2 other Cloggy routes?)
> It shows me how many good routes I still have left to climb.

Re. Cloggy, I was referring to the one in my list and the one in the notes below from Hard Rock (Great/Bow). Thanks for the positive feedback ...I was sorry not to be able to come and join you for the Swanage Stake bashing, I had ridiculous amounts of review writing to complete for work. :-(
victim of mathematics - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I've done 47 of that last list, so still plenty to go at! Especially in Scotland, where in spite of having done a reasonable amount of climbing, I've missed most of the classic VSs. Lucky me!

The only routes I have reservations about really are Harijan (which isn't as good as Jean Jeanie) and Gordian Knot (which is pretty much all about one, admittedly pretty good, move in the middle of the second pitch. On most crags it would be great, but it rather pales in comparison with the sublime Haste Not).

I think I might make a list of all of the suggestions, accepted or not and try and climb them all :)
ads.ukclimbing.com
Rob Davies - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Offwidth: Agreed. Even Plumbline at Running Hill Pits is a lot more memorable than Nozag.
victim of mathematics - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to kitkat78:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Looked at this at the beginning of the weekend, and it's grown since!! It ocurred to me that there's nothing from the Mourne Mountains - having been there this summer I'd put in Agag's Wall at Lower Cove. If the list is partly about getting to new places for quality routes this would have my vote. The area is pretty stunning too - think an area the size of Stanage/Borrowdale valley, but with the crag to yourself... That's my opinon - anyone else agree (or disagree for that matter!).

My Mourne climbing experience extends as far as half a day at Pigeon Rock Mountain, but I think you probably have a point. The guide has a lot of good looking stuff, and there certainly aren't a shortage of routes. I don't have the new guide, but the old one has thirteen two star VSs and one
three star VS (Thin Crack on Annalong Buttress), so some of them must be worth doing?
victim of mathematics - on 15 Nov 2010
In reply to Rob Davies:

Oh yes, and replace Nozag with something better :)
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to scott titt)
> [...]
>
> Re. Cloggy, I was referring to the one in my list and the one in the notes below from Hard Rock (Great/Bow).

Which isn't there!
Now I remember I removed Great/Bow as it has been upgraded to HVS, whoops forgot! ...I've got list fatigue.
Have made a couple more revisions, but will wait awhile before posting the new list in case more bright ideas come up.
I'm still wondering if anyone else is a fan of Aries in North Pembroke, but I guess like the marvellously named Bucket Wall at Juggy Point (I thought that was a troll initially) it is a little bit of a specialist taste. If you like your VS easy but thrillingly bold and spectacularly positioned Aries takes some beating.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=117578
The Ex-Engineer - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I'm coming a bit late to the debate I'm afraid but I'm slightly surprised by the omission of some classic multipitch routes. I feel four major routes stand out as worthy of more consideration along with a few others that deserve honourable mentions.

For the SW I was going to suggest Utopia at Cheddar but that now seems to be HVS so probably doesn't count.

In Wales I have one major complaint, namely Doom (Craig Cywarch) is missing despite already being mentioned. I don't really agree with the logic that has resulted in Longland's Climb (Clogwn Du'r Arddu) being surplanted by the far less classic and representative Curving Crack but that is fairly minor. My other Welsh suggestions of Mallory's Ridge (Y Garn) and Kirkus's Route (Craig Loer) although good routes are probably not worthy of the final list.

Similarly in the Lakes I have one major concern. Square Chimney / Medusa Wall (Esk Buttress) as suggested by several others is a must. In addition I'm mildly surprised that Sinister Grooves (Buckstone How) hasn't been mentioned. FWIW Silver Lining, (Scafell Shamrock) plus Grooved Wall and Nor' Nor' West Climb (Pillar Rock) are all on my ticklist but I accept they probably slip at bit outside a top 80.

In Scotland I struggle to see how Cental Buttress VS Route (Beinn Eighe) can be overlooked. It's about as big a route as you get in the UK. Equally, King Bee (Creag Dubh) is almost certainly worthy of serious consideration.

Otherwise a superb thread and a worthy attempt at the list.

Will have another think about shorter routes and get back to you...
Doug on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ex-Engineer: isn't Central Buttress on Beinn Eighe severe ? I know there are several lines but didn't think any were VS (or is this another upgrade?) But if it is VS it should be in.
SCrossley on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ex-Engineer: Grooved wall is wxcellent, but the bushwacking on the bottom pitch means not in the top 80 IMHO
victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

I wondered about Sinister Grooves, but it's a) a bit hard and b) probably not quite good enough. It is a great route though, which I suspect doesn't get done that much.

On a point of order, isn't it Dwm, and doesn't it involve some aid to be VS? I'm not really sure about that being in keeping with everything else on the list.
O. C. Curmudgeon on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Some great selections so far, on the current list I score about 49.5, I'm missing a few in Scotland. However I think Pembroke should be better represented, personally I think Limbo at Stennis Head is great, but in the tradition of the Rock series to go to a variety of places how about The Meridian at Mother Carey's - much much better than its one star would suggest. Also how about the north coast of North Pembroke, Twinkler at Trwyn LLwyd is great.

In the Wye valley Shorn Cliff or Wintour's Leap should also be represtented, how about Freedom - front cover of the guide book after all.
TraceyR on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to O. C. Curmudgeon: I did suggest some of the Shorncliff VS's - I think they are good - State of Independence was my first ever VS and it was brilliant - the concretion pulling gives added interest!
Just thought of another couple of VS's: The Curver at Mowing Word, nice little route. And Joybringer at Bosherton Head.
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ex-Engineer: Thanks for your considered suggestions, there are some worthy routes there without doubt and I'll research them further ...would certainly like to shoehorn a few of them in.
If there are routes that are there that don't deserve the status then I'd be interested in your opinions on those too, as to squeeze further routes in means editing some out.
From a personal perspective I love multi pitch mountain challenges and adventurous seacliffs, but I have done my best to balance these with other aspects of the UK's multi-faceted Trad scene.
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to O. C. Curmudgeon: Freedom was close, but Questor at Wyndcliffe got the Wye valley nod (it's in the South Wales section as it is just over the border). I think Wintours and Shorn cliff have some classics (Zelda, Bitter Battle Tears spring to mind) but they mostly lie either side of the VS grade.
Dave Garnett - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to The Ex-Engineer)

>
> On a point of order, isn't it Dwm, and doesn't it involve some aid to be VS?

Different route. Dwm is on Castell Cidwm.
victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to OC Curmudgeon & TraceyR:

Instinctively I agree with you that Pembroke should be better represented, but when I think about it there aren't the quality of routes on Range East at VS that there are at HVS (or HS for that matter). The fact that you've suggested The Curver, which is a pleasant enough one star route as a possibility just highlights this.
Pagan - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

> Square Chimney / Medusa Wall (Esk Buttress) as suggested by several others is a must.

I'm not convinced it is TBH. It's a good route on a fine crag but it's not in the same league as the other Lakes routes already on the list.

I don't know if any more are needed for Yorkshire, but if so I'd suggest Joanna and Hades at Baildon (the former is as good as any VS I've done on grit).
davidwright - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Wilbur:
> On the subject of tremadog.. Meshach?

HVS unless the peg is used for aid
GrahamD - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Great Prow on Blaven is also in Hard Rock, isn't it ?

For a good stiff Pembroke VS, how about Aero ?
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Great Prow on Blaven is also in Hard Rock, isn't it ?
>
> For a good stiff Pembroke VS, how about Aero ?

Just checked, and yes Great Prow is in HR, so that completes 100 once more. Aero is another worthy Pembroke suggestion I'd noted it as a contender from the guide, but haven't climbed it. It would now mean chopping something elsewhere to get it in though.
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Revision in light of being informed I'd missed Great Prow on Blaven from the Hard Rock VS routes. Think the list is VERY close now, if not complete! Exactly 100 routes at VS.

South West 14 (2):
• Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=14459
• Little Brown Jug and Anvil Chorus (Bosigran) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=852 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=859
• Diocese and South Face Direct (Chair Ladder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1991 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1957
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2401
• Lost Horizon and Kinkyboots (Baggy Point) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=389 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=402
• Albion and Diamond Solitaire (Lundy) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33518 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33740
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=30748
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26052
• Leviathan (Dewerstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26062
• Whitt (Symonds Yat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34905

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Piton Climb (Avon), Climber’s Club Ordinary (The Dewerstone).

South Wales 5:
• Osiris (Fall Bay) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29499
• Scavenger (3 Cliffs) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8359
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24624
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2545
• Questor (Wyndcliffe) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33154

North Wales 11 (2):
• The Green Slab (Gogarth) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4381
• Curving Crack (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2180
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3183
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2238
• The Direct Route (Dinas Mot) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3259
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=50629
• Grim Wall (Craig Bwlch y Moch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2513
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2939
• Doom (Craig Cywarch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=36752
• Mur y Niwl (Craig Yr Ysfa) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29164
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2317

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Nea (Clogwyn y Grochan), Grey Slab (Glyder Fawr).

Peak District 9 (5):
• Mississippi Buttress Direct and High Neb Buttress (Stanage) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10252 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9995
• Valkyrie (Roaches) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16011
• Tower Face (Laddow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15807
• The Mall (Millstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10792
• Golden Yardstick (Wildcat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=22709
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16157
• Phoenix Climb (Shining Clough Rocks) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15051
• The File (Higgar Tor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=74758

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Topsail (Birchen), Central Climb (Hen Cloud), Via Dolorosa and Hargreave’s Original (Stanage).
And at VS in Hard Rock:
Chee Tor Girdle (Chee Tor).

Lake District and NW 14 (2):
• Eliminate A and Murray’s Direct (Dow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3348 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3364
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4183 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4193
• Haste Not (White Ghyll) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9178
• Botterill's Slab and Mickledore Grooves (Scafell) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6978 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7076
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7542
• North-West Climb (Pillar) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6357
• Eagle Front (Buttermere) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3478
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1842
• Rake End Wall (Pavey Ark) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=5985
• Jean Jeanie (Trowbarrow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=21673
• Flake Crack (Helsby) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=19058

In addition the following VS routes feature in Hard Rock:
Engineer’s Slabs (Gable), The Crack (Gimmer).

North Yorkshire and the NE 5:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28506
• Frankland’s Green Crack (Almscliff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=57
• Arete Direct (Simons Seat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33810
• Birch Tree Wall (Brimham) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28051
• Tacitation (Kyloe Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=37790

Scotland 21 (7):
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=126708
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33056
• The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2985
• Scabbard (Creag a'choire Etchachan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2961
• King Bee (Creag Dubh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3010
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31326
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=40862
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=456
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7427
• Black Pig and Black Gold (Reiff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34969 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34973
• Pain Pillar (Hawkcraig) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31435
• Fionn Buttress (Carnmore Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1667
• Whether Wall/Wither Whether (the Cobbler) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8119 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8117
• Jamie Jampot and Hairy Mary (Suidhe Biorach) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=53382 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=128236
• Shangri-La (Sron na Ciche) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38923
• Grand Diedre (Sgurr Alastair) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7436
• Perfect Groove (Eshaness Lighthouse) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=55077
• The Groove (Dunkeld, Craig a Barns) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3422

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
The Long Climb (Ben Nevis), The Chasm (Buachaille Etive Mor), Clean Sweep (Hell’s Lum), Ardgarten Arete (The Cobbler).
And at VS in Hard Rock:
Raven’s Gully (Buachaille Etive Mor), South Ridge Direct (Cir Mhor), Great Prow (Blaven).

Northern Ireland 3:
• The Fence and Girona (Fairhead) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=51538 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=36937
• Agag’s Wall (Lower Cove, Mournes) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=85802


The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
By the way do the "Dartmoor Vote Riggers" have a point about Suspension Flake? It looks more like a good easy highball boulder problem to me.
ads.ukclimbing.com
pebbles - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) have heard very good reports of Clubfoot at Malham - possible Yorkshire entry?

way too polished for a top 80

victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Aero is hard (I thought HVS wouldn't have been unfair) and not really in the same league as the others. If you must include another Pembroke route and don't fancy Bucket Wall (which well lives up to the name) or some other oddball Range West classic, then Toil And Trouble is the best VS I've done on Range East other than Blue Sky.

I've never done it, but everyone I know who has bangs on about how great Joanna at Baildon is, and it does look pretty tasty.
a lakeland climber on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:

Is Joanna a crackline to the left of the box quarry? If so then I've done it and didn't think it was very good - hard move or two to start then easy. Not as good as the VS over to the right up the steep flake line that I can't remember the name of.

ALC
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
Think I'll probably stick at Armorican and Blue Sky. Bucket Wall is certainly on my personal wishlist though, have you done Aries at Initiation Slabs? 'Tis a lovely route, beautiful little bay, climbing is easy for VS in a fantastic exposed position, the exposure is added to by the fact that I only found one decent runner on the entire Arete (and that was at over half height), memorable!
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to a lakeland climber:
Hades looks like the other classic VS line at Baildon Bank, is that the one you mean?
Could be good to slot one in, but it is getting hard to cut routes now!
Gordon Stainforth - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Aero is hard (I thought HVS wouldn't have been unfair) and not really in the same league as the others.

I agree with you over both the difficulty and quality of Aero. I don't remember much about it except that is was very hard for the grade.

alasdair19 on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: only scottish one i have quibbles with is groove at dunkeld it really is not that great but on the other hand its a key scottish climbing area.

I think you may be in danger of trying to get representative VSs rather than pure quality. will seek out green slab at gogarth to check

Anvil chorus is ok but no more.

agree with al that aurora at stoney should be in or simply upgrade froth!

king bee may be the best sandbag in the list for those that can jam
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to alasdair19:
I think the list represents a balance between representing different aspects of the UK trad climbing scene, different areas and of course quality is a major factor. I suspect you are correct in assuming Anvil Chorus is not one of the most rock solid choices on the list. Aurora perhaps deserves another look, as do the Baildon Bank suggestions ...perhaps one of these at the expense of Anvil Chorus.
I assume your comment about King Bee should have read "can't jam"!
Dave Garnett - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Baildon Bank? Are people seriously suggesting that one of the top 80 routes in Britain at any grade is at Baildon Bank?!
biped - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

This thread is far too long, unsurprisingly, to read, so I will throw in a few memorable ones.

Haste Not (Possibly the best VS)
Slip Not
Spartan Slab
Old Man of Stoer
Scimitar
Red Slab
Wappenshaw Wall
Satan's Slit
Fracture Route
Raven's Edge
Boomerang
Little Boomerang
Spider
Phantom Slab
Damnation
Ressurection
Flying Dutchman (it was severe last time I looked but seemingly is now VS)
Lucky Strike (Ballater)
Pink Wall
Medium Cool (2nded)
Fallen Star
Bifurcator
Insect Groove
Wriggle, The Rut and The Groove
The End
Pain Pillar
The one to the left of Pain Pillar
Red Lead
Whither Whether/Whether Wall
Jim Nastic
Trinity (Kyloe out)
Tacitation (Kyloe out)
Wilfred Prickles (Kyloe out)
St Ivel (Kyloe out)
Scorpion (2nded)
A few here and there I can't think of the names of.
Doubtless more will jump into my head as soon as I press 'submit'.

Offwidth - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Chee Tor Girdle has been HVS for a while now..
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Chee Tor Girdle has been HVS for a while now..

It is still VS 5a on both UKC and in Rockfax.
tonyw - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Nice one Ivanator, that makes a cracking tick list, all you need now is to get contributions from the UKC community on each of the routes, sure there will be sufficient photos, and you have all you need for a publication, now that would be something !

Ones I would like to see on the list, most of which have been mentioned elsewhere already:

Pinnacle Face, Crag Lough - gem of a route
Eliminate C - ok see you have A and Murrays which are probs the pick, but C is a great route, esp the top pitch
Fools Paradise
Ribstone Crack
Longlands at Cloggy - Just has to be in
Gordian Knot

Offwidth - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Ok, a few others like Munich which have disputed grades should really be there then (Munich has an almost identical profile of grade votes to STG)
petestack - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to biped:
> Phantom Slab
> Damnation
> Ressurection

Already suggested that trio together for Polldubh, but only Phantom Slab seems to have stuck.

> Flying Dutchman (it was severe last time I looked but seemingly is now VS)

Brilliant, but still Severe apart from the optional direct finish (nice, but just a couple of moves at soft VS 4c).
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to tonyw:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> Eliminate C - ok see you have A and Murrays which are probs the pick, but C is a great route, esp the top pitch

Did all three of these in a day last Spring, fantastic! Thought A and Murrays were consistently brilliant, C was more variable in quality but the main pitch (across the slab and up the arete with the spike at the bottom) is possibly the best single pitch amongst all three routes.
EddieC on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I'd agree with others above that Nozag is nice but not that good.

Also, surely The Mall doesn't merit inclusion either, especially given that much better HVS routes at Millstone like Great North Road didn't make it into Hard Rock.

On the grit The File and Tower Face are dead certs though.

Has anyone done Moneylender's Crack or Flash Wall at Nether Tor (I haven't)? Would either of them be worth considering?

Further north on the Buchaille Crow's Nest Crack is a really good, meaty pitch, but May Crack is even better.
Rog Wilko on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to alasdair19)
> I suspect you are correct in assuming Anvil Chorus is not one of the most rock solid choices on the list.

No no no! There are 60 or 70 others you should chop before that. Brilliant route!
victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Offwidth:

Other than definitely being HVS, I didn't think Munich Climb was that good. Perhaps that's heresy, but I wouldn't include it in the list even if I did think it was VS.
Gordon Stainforth - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:

Agreed. Munich is really just not good enough.
ads.ukclimbing.com
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko: I hear you! :-)
Rog Wilko on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I know I should have said this before, but Golden Yardstick - really? The first pitch it shares with Lobo - rather uninteresting, just a bit awkward. Then the top pitch it shares with Manx, a very undistinguished route. If memory serves there's about 20 ft of good climbing. I don't think it can hold a candle to Pothole Wall or Guts Ache Groove or even Garrotter on nearby Willersley
Pursued by a bear - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Agreed. Munich is really just not good enough.

But it begs the question; is quality of climbing really all that's needed for a route to be in the list? Because Munich climb, whatever the quality of the route, has a particular place in climbing history that gives it a claim to be in a list of notable climbs of any grade; it just happens to be a VS and so I'd argue deserves its place on the list.

T.

The Ex-Engineer - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> Revision in light of being informed I'd missed Great Prow on Blaven from the Hard Rock VS routes. Think the list is VERY close now, if not complete! Exactly 100 routes at VS.

Only one glaring problem - Raven's Gully is an appalling route and just does not deserved to be included in ANY list of summer climbs :-(
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> [...]
>
> Only one glaring problem - Raven's Gully is an appalling route and just does not deserved to be included in ANY list of summer climbs :-(

From all I can glean about the route that does appear to be the case, but the Hard Rock and Classic Rock routes were not chosen by me or nominated by the UKC collective, unless the whole principlee of the list (to fill the gap between Classic and Hard Rock) is abandoned then we are stuck with Raven Gully. I have received an email from one UKCer who ws an advocate of the route!
victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> [...]
>
> But it begs the question; is quality of climbing really all that's needed for a route to be in the list? Because Munich climb, whatever the quality of the route, has a particular place in climbing history that gives it a claim to be in a list of notable climbs of any grade; it just happens to be a VS and so I'd argue deserves its place on the list.
>
> T.

Well that opens up the question of what you are making a list of. Is it just the best VSs, the most historically significant VSs, the best VSs of each type or in each area, or some hodge-podge of all these things?

As it happens Munich climb isn't VS anyway, so doesn't fulfil any of the criteria, but if it was, is it enough to be historically significant but not actually that great? I wouldn't put it on the list on that basis.

victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> [...]
>
> No no no! There are 60 or 70 others you should chop before that. Brilliant route!

Meh. I hated Anvil Chorus. Admittedly I can't layback for toffee, so I am well aware of my own bias on this front. It is somewhat all about 15 metres or so of climbing in 50-odd, but it is undeniably impressive and unlikely at the grade. I could take it or leave it on the list.
Gordon Stainforth - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> [...]
>
> But it begs the question; is quality of climbing really all that's needed for a route to be in the list? Because Munich climb, whatever the quality of the route, has a particular place in climbing history that gives it a claim to be in a list of notable climbs of any grade; it just happens to be a VS and so I'd argue deserves its place on the list.

I don't think interesting climbing history is enough to justify entry into the list. One might just as well say that the very scruffy thing that Puttrell did in Peak Dale in 1898 (can't remember the name) should be in because it was the first VS on limestone, or that High Tor Gully should be in because of the part it played in early Peak limestone exploration.

victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to EddieC:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) I'd agree with others above that Nozag is nice but not that good.
>
> Also, surely The Mall doesn't merit inclusion either, especially given that much better HVS routes at Millstone like Great North Road didn't make it into Hard Rock.

I don't see how the inclusion or not of nearby routes of a different grade in somebody else's book need have any bearing on a route's selection for this list. That aside are there any better VSs on quarried grit? The Mall is a fantastic route and I think earns its place.
Gordon Stainforth - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Pursued by a bear)
> [...]
>
>
> As it happens Munich climb isn't VS anyway, so doesn't fulfil any of the criteria, but if it was, is it enough to be historically significant but not actually that great? I wouldn't put it on the list on that basis.

I didn't realise it had been upgraded. Certainly until the late 70s (when i did it) it was always VS i.e it had been for about 40 years.

Pursued by a bear - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics: Indeed; define what you mean by 'top'.

I think that there's an argument to be made about things like historical significance of climbs, but historical significance doesn't necessarily make for a compelling or memorable climb unless looked at backwards through the lens of history. Rather, it might be a deal-breaker; A not B because A has a particular place in the history of the sport.

And as I've previously mentioned, if a forum like this can achieve something like consensus over a list of this sort, then that's a fine thing. There are going to be routes each of us would like to see included that aren't on there, but that's all part of the fun of doing it.

What grade next when this one's done then?

T.
Pursued by a bear - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> [...]
>
> I didn't realise it had been upgraded.

Neither did I; it can be a pain and pleasure when things like that happen. You have it in mind that the first route you did of a particular grade was this one on that date, then you open a more contemporary guidebook and find that something you did thinking it to be a certain grade is now a grade harder and you did that before you did the route you thought was your first at the harder grade.

Happily, Munich climb doesn't affect my landmarks like that.

T.
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> [...]
>
> I didn't realise it had been upgraded. Certainly until the late 70s (when i did it) it was always VS i.e it had been for about 40 years.

Current grades for Munich Climb, New CC Ogwen guide HVS 5a, Ground Up North Wales Rock HVS 5a, Rockfax North Wales Classics VS 5a. A disputed grade and some dispute over the merit of the climb so despite its history I feel there is justification for leaving it out.
victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> [...]
>
> I didn't realise it had been upgraded. Certainly until the late 70s (when i did it) it was always VS i.e it had been for about 40 years.

Both North Wales Rock and the new Ogwen guide have it (rightly) at HVS. I remember when I did it I started a thread on here asking if anybody else had found it stiff for the grade, and was met with lots of replies all along the lines of "no, it's a bog standard mountain VS". It was nice to be vindicated when North Wales Rock first came out.

By the way, I presume you're not trying to argue that having been VS for 40 years is a good argument for it still being VS?
Gordon Stainforth - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:

No. I do remember it being quite hard and serious (sparcely protected for the grade), but it didn't seem like a Hard VS, just a rather hard VS :))
victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
> [...]
>
> Neither did I; it can be a pain and pleasure when things like that happen. You have it in mind that the first route you did of a particular grade was this one on that date, then you open a more contemporary guidebook and find that something you did thinking it to be a certain grade is now a grade harder and you did that before you did the route you thought was your first at the harder grade.

Do people actually get worked up about that sort of thing? I have what's been described as a fairly unhealthy interest in such statistics (I have a record of my first route at each grade, for example), but wouldn't be bothered if any of them subsequently changed grades, unless the increase (or decrease) was totally unmerited.

I guess there are those people who automatically regard all upgrades as somehow bad, and those who think they can sometimes be a good and appropriate thing :)
Gordon Stainforth - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:

I've just looked it up in my guidebook for fun.

'19th Aug 1978 Munich Climb (VS)

Harry led first pitch (so-called crux); I had the "killer pitch" - the technically interesting and exposed traverse into Teufel's Crack (which is superb). A better climb than I expected with enough 4C to make it very respectable. Superb rock.'

No mention of it being worthy of HVS, and I was always the first to say if I found I route too hard for the grade.

[We then did Belle Vue Bastion - which I rated more highly - a bit of a rave]

The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Pursued by a bear)
> I guess there are those people who automatically regard all upgrades as somehow bad, and those who think they can sometimes be a good and appropriate thing :)

At the other end of the scale downgrading has allowed the wonderful Armorican to feature in the list, I think Lost Horizon at Baggy was also once HVS. Both these seem correctly regraded to VS although at the top end of the grade climbing wise, the ample and reliable protection on both these routes keeps them within the bounds of VS.
victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> [...]
>
> At the other end of the scale downgrading has allowed the wonderful Armorican to feature in the list, I think Lost Horizon at Baggy was also once HVS. Both these seem correctly regraded to VS although at the top end of the grade climbing wise, the ample and reliable protection on both these routes keeps them within the bounds of VS.

I'll be the first (well, one of the first if Offwidth gets there before me) to get stuck into people complaining about grade creep. For some reason a lot of people seem oblivious to the downgrading of routes, which as those two amply demonstrate, can often be a good (and entirely appropriate) thing.

victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

By the way, to those of you asking what grade is next, can I offer the following cautionary note to anybody thinking about a lower grade version:

There are approximately 44 Mods, 149 Diffs, 395 VDiffs, 503 Severes, 413 Hard Severes and 1506 VSs in the UK with 2 or 3 stars, so you'll be somewhat less spoilt for choice below VS.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Pagan - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:

Approximately?
Michael Hood - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I'm going to pitch in with a 2-star VS that's rather weird and then bold in execution - Nat Not at Caswell Bay in the Gower. Top end for the grade and it would add much more interest to your list than some of the usual suspects that are already in there.
victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Pagan:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
>
> Approximately?

I don't quite have all the data yet (it's an ongoing process...)

If somebody could tell people to stop bringing out guidebooks then I'd be sorted.

Alternatively if somebody could tell me how many routes in the new Wye Valley, Symonds Yat and Mournes guides get 2 or more stars which didn't previously, then I'll be able to give you the exact figures.

Sometimes I scare myself.
:D
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to biped: > This thread is far too long, unsurprisingly, to read, so I will throw in a few memorable ones.
>
> Haste Not (Possibly the best VS)
> Slip Not
> Spartan Slab
> Old Man of Stoer
> Scimitar
> Red Slab
> Wappenshaw Wall
> Satan's Slit
> Fracture Route
> Raven's Edge
> Boomerang
> Little Boomerang
> Spider
> Phantom Slab
> Damnation
> Ressurection
> Flying Dutchman (it was severe last time I looked but seemingly is now VS)
> Lucky Strike (Ballater)
> Pink Wall
> Medium Cool (2nded)
> Fallen Star
> Bifurcator
> Insect Groove
> Wriggle, The Rut and The Groove
> The End
> Pain Pillar
> The one to the left of Pain Pillar
> Red Lead
> Whither Whether/Whether Wall
> Jim Nastic
> Trinity (Kyloe out)
> Tacitation (Kyloe out)
> Wilfred Prickles (Kyloe out)
> St Ivel (Kyloe out)
> Scorpion (2nded)
> A few here and there I can't think of the names of.
> Doubtless more will jump into my head as soon as I press 'submit'.

That sure was a lot of routes to throw in the hat at this stage of the game. Some are already in, a couple are HVS, several are probably equally worthy to things already in the selection. Have "UKCed" them all and it certainly wets my appetite for a climbing trip North of the Border ...however don't know that many amongst them are SO clearly superior to the existing climbs as to merit a change now.
If I had clear feedback on which of the Reiff and Suidhe Biorach routes were the best perhaps one or both of these sections could be reduced to a single choice and a couple of routes from elsewhere could be included instead ...something from the pass of Ballater would seem a worthwhile addition.

victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

The Reiff routes work well together I think. They are different styles and both excellent, but one on its own would seem like a bit of a weak representation from such a brilliant (and extensive crag). And they are right next to each other.

Suidhe Biorach is a bit different. Either on their own is worth the trip down that endless road to Elgol from Broadford. Jamie Jampot is the more compelling line, but Hairy Mary has better climbing and positions, and looks very unlikely. It's easy to see how opinion could be divided, but I'm not certain that they both need to be there. I'd go for Hairy Mary, but both are great.
jonah jones - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
Bloody Hell, was just reading the latest on this most excellent thread and thought where's Altar Crack - surely the best example of VS laybacking there is.

Jonah
victim of mathematics - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to jonah jones:

Shudder...
The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
I am imagining that in the Classic Rock style each crag could be profiled with other worthwhile climbs at say HS - HVS listed, but the choice of featured climbs is obviously significant.
On reflection I feel the current list is pretty much there, of course some of the choices can be argued and there are other worthy candidates, but I'm getting to the point where I feel further changes won't significantly enhance the selection.
It has been a fun distraction over the last few days and I'm pleased that others have appreciated the list and even said they may be inspired to visit new pastures because of it!
I'll post here on UKC when my tour and blog get going. It has also been great to receive a number of emails supporting the project, offers of beds to crash in, climbing partners and writing collaborators ...watch this space!
Dave Ferguson - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to Michael Hood:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) I'm going to pitch in with a 2-star VS that's rather weird and then bold in execution - Nat Not at Caswell Bay in the Gower. Top end for the grade and it would add much more interest to your list than some of the usual suspects that are already in there.

Did this for the first time this year and whilst I agree it is not without interest and probably better than scavenger, it doen't really cut the mustard as a top 100 VS. pretty goey at the grade though I thought and a damn fine suggestion.

In reply to Rog Wilko from ages up the thread I also did Hiatus on Gimmer for the first time this year and I agree the top pitch is worthy of any of the single pitch VS's, its just the first two pitches let it down somewhat. Also the way round the engineers slab conundrum is to vote for Interceptor, just as good as engineers and on a fantastic piece of rock, its lack of popularity though will probably preclude it - shame



The Ivanator - on 16 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
If anyone would like a copy of the list as a Word Document then please email me and I'll send it out to you.

Ivan.
Jeremy Ashcroft - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Has any body mentioned, Mohammed the Mad Monk of Moorside Home for Mental Misfits?
Rog Wilko on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> >
> There are approximately 44 Mods, 149 Diffs, 395 VDiffs, 503 Severes, 413 Hard Severes and 1506 VSs in the UK with 2 or 3 stars, so you'll be somewhat less spoilt for choice below VS.

Boy, you must have a lot of spare time.

The Ivanator - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to Jeremy Ashcroft: It did get a mention somewhere on the thread and certainly looks a good line, if I could only replace Raven Gully it would be in!
metal arms on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to EddieC)
That aside are there any better VSs on quarried grit? The Mall is a fantastic route and I think earns its place.

Excalibur - across the road. At least in my opinion. It felt bigger, badder and looks more impressive.
victim of mathematics - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> [...]
>
> Boy, you must have a lot of spare time.

It has taken 6 or 7 years to get to those figures...

victim of mathematics - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to metal arms:
>
> Excalibur - across the road. At least in my opinion. It felt bigger, badder and looks more impressive.

But Excalibur saves all its meanness for the last 5 metres whereas The Mall is at you from the off like a slap round the face with a wet kipper.
Offwidth - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:

Back on Munich I just thought it was a top half VS nothing like the hardest I've done. Good small gear next to a 5a arete move (on the pitch given 4c!). It may have got harder of course, but in reverse circumstances where I've disagreed with a good few others (whom I normally trust on grades) I nearly always find I missed something or was climbing badly when I go back and recheck.
pete3685 - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Sheaf on Cloggy, because the situations are outrageously mindblowing. I know it's HVS in Nick's guide, but it can't be as i've soloed it, and is, in my opinion, the best VS/HVS on the crag
victim of mathematics - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to Offwidth:

Are we talking about the moves to reach the belay with the rocking block? Neither crossdressingrodney who led the pitch, nor I fancied the gear in that thin, hollow sounding placement and the last good gear was a couple of metres below. He essentially jumped for a finger lock, whilst I ingloriously humped my way up the arete to the right. We both felt our respective methods were harder than 4c, and we're clearly not the only ones. I seem to recall you being one of the people telling me to man up on the thread I started at the time :)
Gordon Stainforth - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to Offwidth:

This is Arthur Birtwistle making the second or third free ascent of Munich in 1938. If my memory is right, this is just below the crux. Apparently here (caption from Rucksack Club centenary book) he is 'using the toffee hammer from Tal-y-Braich to remove a pebble from a good thread belay point.'

http://www.gordonstainforth.co.uk/images/birtwistle_munich.jpg
ads.ukclimbing.com
Gordon Stainforth - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Sorry, 1937
CurlyStevo - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Scabbard Cairngorms is my favourite
The Ivanator - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> Scabbard Cairngorms is my favourite

It is in the list. Most recent version of the list was posted at 12.05 on Tuesday if you want to locate it on the thread. Also available as a word document if you email me.

Ivan

Offwidth - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

That looks like it. Another reason I thought it was VS is you can move up and down without too much trouble. If the gear placements are now hollow I'd agree with HVS as the move was 5a to me. There are some reports of the next pitch being the crux: I thought it was more than a grade easier.
Gordon Stainforth - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to Offwidth:

My memory and assessment is more or less identical to yours. I think there were a couple of smallish but good nuts at or just below the crux move, and I think it really was just one move. The next pitch was definitely easier (something like 4b+??), but after one good runner you traverse horizontally left for about 12? feet with no gear, a little bit sequency. Then a very good crack is reached.
The Ivanator - on 17 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
I've been trawling this thread and a few other older best of VS threads and I've come up with a few questions that someone out there might have strong opinions on:
SW
Suspension Flake (Hound Tor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=32639
-was there a good reason for its one time best of UK VS status? (I suspect not)
Peak
Altar Crack (Rivelin) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9740
Fairy Nuff (Standing Stones) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16695
-are either of these superior to any of the existing Peak selections? Are both the Stanage routes (Mississippi and High Neb Buttresses) necessary along with the 2 Classic Rock Stanage ticks?
Is Golden Yardstick superior to these routes?
Yorks and NE
Pinnacle Face on Crag Lough http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33541
- a must for the list?
Lakes
I know Pavey and Pillar are major crags, but are the selections on them 100% worthy of the list?
(Rake End Wall and North-West Climb)
Scotland
To include another crag I am minded to eliminate Hairy Mary (just too hairy, despite the spectacular position). Which of the following routes would you advocate in place:
Butterknife (Garbh Beinn) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4111
May Crack (Buachaille Etive Mor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38194
or Lucky Strike (Pass of Ballater) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=5955
or none of the above?

victim of mathematics - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Suspension Flake is nice enough, but fairly forgettable and far too short-lived to warrant inclusion.

I've not done Altar Crack or Fairy Nuff (to my shame), but Golden Yardstick is ace and there are already a lot of gritstone routes on the list.

Oh, and I think I might have mentioned before that I enjoyed Pinnacle Face a lot and would rate it over Tacitation.

I have no opinion on the other routes (just for a change).
Hardonicus - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Altar crack is good, but somewhat one-dimensional and short lived.

Fairy Nuff however is one of the best VSs I've done in the Peak, it has everything and is unique in structure (two slightly offset, stacked, hanging aretes).

It is certainly the best in Chew. I would swap this for High Neb Buttress, the rough Chew grit provides a superb contrast to the smoother Millstone Grit.
JDal - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics: You said Tacitation was a "bit unbalanced", but Pinnacle Face, is a one move wonder?

I've must've done these 2 routes a dozen times over the years, and I prefer Tacitation. A couple of Scotish lads were at Kyloe one evening and soloed Tacitation twice in succession commenting "it's a route you want to do again and again". I agree with them.

There's only two people voting on the Northumberland stuff so it's a draw ;) Maybe they should both be in, Tacitation as the classic Fell Sandstone VS and Pinnacle Face as the classic Dolerite VS.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Thanks for these replies. My conclusions:
Suspension Flake ...as I suspected then. No place in the list for a glorified boulder problem.
Altar Crack ...decent but not listworthy.
Fairy Nuff gives more variety to Peak selection, in at expense of High Neb.
Pinnacle Face: good to get another Northumberland Route in, I'm going for this instead of Hairy Mary in the Scottish section (despite claims that it doesn't effect the climbing that wierd green lichen just ruins the aesthetics of that route and the crag is represented on the list still).
gribble - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Altar crack is indeed a very fine route, but sadly (or fortunately!) a bit short. I do wonder about the Mall at Millstone - perhpas it's just me, but I've never really enjoyed it. A bit dampish, polishesd, a dark corner that provides more of an out of balance struggle rather than quality climbing. Millstone is much better for HVS. And Fern Crack is better!
kathrync - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to 220bpm:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> The Twist
> The Citadel
> Black Mamba
> Monar Magic
> Ravens Edge
> Crows Nest Crack
> Fallout Corner
> Butterknife
> Sword of Gideon
> The Long Climb
> Fionn Buttress
> South Ridge Direct
> Wither, Wether
> Mousetrap
> Djibangi
> Spartan Slab
> Pobble
> Excalibur
> The Chasm
> The Clean Sweep
> Original Route - Old Man of Stoer
> Phantom Slab
> Integrity
> Dawn Grooves


Good list

I have to add Integrity...nice little VS on it's own but a great finish after doing Cioch Nose Direct and Arrow Route, fabulous day out :o)
Gordon Stainforth - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Hardonicus:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Altar crack is good, but somewhat one-dimensional and short lived.

Agreed. Can't see it making the final list.
>
> Fairy Nuff however is one of the best VSs I've done in the Peak, it has everything and is unique in structure (two slightly offset, stacked, hanging aretes).

This is a very good call. A superb route.
>
> It is certainly the best in Chew. I would swap this for High Neb Buttress, the rough Chew grit provides a superb contrast to the smoother Millstone Grit.

Yes, better than HNB

Gordon Stainforth - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to gribble:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Altar crack is indeed a very fine route, but sadly (or fortunately!) a bit short. I do wonder about the Mall at Millstone - perhpas it's just me, but I've never really enjoyed it. A bit dampish, polishesd, a dark corner that provides more of an out of balance struggle rather than quality climbing. Millstone is much better for HVS. And Fern Crack is better!

Totally agreed. Fern Crack has real class.

The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Is the Great Prow on blaven HVS? It is HVS on UKC and I don't have the guide, if the HVS grade is correct it opens up one space on the list ...which Scottish route not currently included is the most worthy addition?
Gordon Stainforth - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

It's VS in the latest/last SMC guide, but I think Mike Lates has said somewhere that it's going to be HVS in the forthcoming Cuillin guidebook - but I may be completely wrong.
Gordon Stainforth - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

No, sorry, I did get that wrong. Mike still thinks it's VS 4c:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=146977
PeteC - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to davidoldfart: Good to see Doom (Craig Cywarch) mentioned. I did Doom in about 1975 when it was quite new, and thought at the time that it had star quality. I'll put in a vote for Doom, although I don't know how much traffic it gets nowadays: a lot of the routes there have become overgrown with vegetation.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Thanks, it looks fantastic, so kind of glad it stays in the VS list.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to gribble:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
I do wonder about the Mall at Millstone - perhpas it's just me, but I've never really enjoyed it. A bit dampish, polishesd, a dark corner that provides more of an out of balance struggle rather than quality climbing. Millstone is much better for HVS. And Fern Crack is better!

I think The Mall provides greater variety though, which is also a consideration ...it certainly has its advocates. Stanage is after all represented by Mississippi Buttress and Hargreaves (from Classic Rock).
ads.ukclimbing.com
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Final List?? (Now needs to be posted in 2 sections due to size!

99 of the Best VS Climbs in the UK (& Raven Gully)

South West 14 (2):
• Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=14459
• Little Brown Jug and Anvil Chorus (Bosigran) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=852 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=859
• Diocese and South Face Direct (Chair Ladder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1991 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1957
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2401
• Lost Horizon and Kinkyboots (Baggy Point) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=389 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=402
• Albion and Diamond Solitaire (Lundy) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33518 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33740
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=30748
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26052
• Leviathan (Dewerstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26062
• Whitt (Symonds Yat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34905

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Piton Route (Avon) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=32335
Climber’s Club Ordinary (The Dewerstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26070

South Wales 5:
• Osiris (Fall Bay) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29499
• Scavenger (Three Cliffs) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8359
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24624
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2545
• Questor (Wyndcliffe) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33154

North Wales 11 (2):
• The Green Slab (Gogarth) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4381
• Curving Crack (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2180
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3183
• Phantom Rib (Clogwyn y Grochan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2238
• The Direct Route (Dinas Mot) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3259
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=50629
• Grim Wall (Craig Bwlch y Moch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2513
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2939
• Doom (Craig Cywarch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=36752
• Mur y Niwl (Craig Yr Ysfa) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29164
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2317

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Nea (Clogwyn y Grochan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2240
Grey Slab (Glyder Fawr) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29215

Peak District 9 (5):
• Mississippi Buttress Direct (Stanage) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10252
• Valkyrie (Roaches) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16011
• Tower Face (Laddow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15807
• The Mall (Millstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10792
• Golden Yardstick (Wildcat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=22709
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16157
• Phoenix Climb (Shining Clough) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15051
• Fairy Nuff (Standing Stones) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16695
• The File (Higgar Tor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=74758

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Topsail (Birchen) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=11229
Central Climb (Hen Cloud) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16124
Via Dolorosa (Roaches) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16007
Hargreave’s Original (Stanage) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10340
And at VS in Hard Rock:
Chee Tor Girdle (Chee Tor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=12245

The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
List Part 2:

Lake District and NW 14 (2):
• Eliminate A and Murray’s Direct (Dow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3348 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3364
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4183 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4193
• Haste Not (White Ghyll) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9178
• Botterill's Slab and Mickledore Grooves (Scafell) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6978 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7076
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7542
• North-West Climb (Pillar) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6357
• Eagle Front (Buttermere) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3478
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1842
• Rake End Wall (Pavey Ark) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=5985
• Jean Jeanie (Trowbarrow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=21673
• Flake Crack (Helsby) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=19058

In addition the following VS routes feature in Hard Rock:
Engineer’s Slabs (Gable) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38847
The Crack (Gimmer) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4178

North Yorkshire and the NE 6:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28506
• Frankland’s Green Crack (Almscliff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=57
• Arete Direct (Simons Seat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33810
• Birch Tree Wall (Brimham) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28051
• Tacitation (Kyloe Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=37790
• Pinnacle Face (Crag Lough) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33541

Scotland 20 (7):
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=126708
• Proud Corner (Glen Clova) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33056
• The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2985
• Scabbard (Creag a'choire Etchachan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2961
• King Bee (Creag Dubh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3010
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31326
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=40862
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=456
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7427
• Black Pig and Black Gold (Reiff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34969 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34973
• Pain Pillar (Hawkcraig) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31435
• Fionn Buttress (Carnmore Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1667
• Whether Wall/Wither Whether (the Cobbler) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8119 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8117
• Jamie Jampot (Suidhe Biorach) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=53382
• Shangri-La (Sron na Ciche) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38923
• Grand Diedre (Sgurr Alastair) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7436
• Perfect Groove (Eshaness Lighthouse) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=55077
• The Groove (Dunkeld, Craig a Barns) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3422

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
The Long Climb (Ben Nevis) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=556
The Chasm (Buachaille Etive Mor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=63947
Clean Sweep (Hell’s Lum) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4766
Ardgarten Arete (The Cobbler) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8132
And at VS in Hard Rock:
Raven’s Gully (Buachaille Etive Mor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1202
South Ridge Direct (Cir Mhor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2096
The Great Prow (Blaven) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=674

Northern Ireland 3:
• The Fence and Girona (Fairhead) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=51538 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=36937
• Agag’s Wall (Lower Cove, Mournes) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=85802
Offwidth - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Right.. now you need to get UKC to turn this into a feature !;-)
Gordon Stainforth - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I'm still a bit bothered that Lean Man's Superdirect doesn't get in. I know I've gone on about it, but surely there must be others who agree?
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Offwidth: This had occured to me, and would perhaps be a good first step towards a more ambitious publication.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I am disappointed that my championing of Aries in Pembroke didn't get any support, I guess we will all have personal favourites that have missed the cut.
Gordon Stainforth - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

But how will posterity look at the list, for getting it wrong?

;-)
cliveoap - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
What a great read!!!! Just found it so heres my 1st time ever contribution.
I have decided to my 2p worth in re Green Slab on Gogarth
It may be VS but any party who climb's at competent VS level will have a very rude awakening. I found the situation's awe inspiring but the route itself with out doubt the biggest pile of shit ive ever been on.
We did it because of the 3*** in the guide. After that went on to do North West Passage at a mere 2** Great route but not VS.

Sabre Cut My 1st VS lead (infact my 1st VS) 6/9/63 in big boots and not a single runner and thought as the boots kept jamming I could die here.
Did it again in 13/7/95 16 runners just to see how many I could put in.
How times have changed. Last time 6/8/2007
Munich. Done in 1964 have the pictures but cant remember the route and never repeated.
Bel View Bastion Same day and again in 2005 didnt think either that good.
Overhanging Bastion 7/6/64 Wonderful and again 17/10.99 and a few times in between
Communist Convert 8/6/64 Should have more votes if I remember it right.
The Knots 18/10/99 OK
The Direct on the Mot has to be my all time best VS, every pitch is different and the crux is where it should be and a good safe laugh as well.
There is not a great VS at Tremadog. Grim Wall and Craig-du Wall whitch has hardly got a vote are good and 1 Step is nice but not in the top 80
Great number of HVS and above and some of the HVS could be VS now.

So back to Green Slab. If its on the list people will go there. If I ever have to do it again it will be a only as a very serious escape route!!!!
If anyone likes good strong safe belays take a shovel and some scaffolding and a tube of "Sticks Like Shit" as well for good measure.
Or better still take it off the list before a tragedy occurs
Cheers all
Clive
TraceyR on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth) I am disappointed that my championing of Aries in Pembroke didn't get any support, I guess we will all have personal favourites that have missed the cut.

I haven't done it yet so cannot comment on it unfortunately. I did do Chinon and Shiraz the other day just along from there and they were great little climbs on amazingly pocketed sandstone (yes, i do know that they are hvs/e1 respectively).
victim of mathematics - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to cliveoap:

You could not be more wrong about Green Slab.

The rock is good except for the very top of the last pitch, which is fairly easy ground (and by then you're too busy marvelling at the weirdness of it to worry about it). The first belay is fine, and the second contains a brilliant large hex (which is a bit higher so would be easy to miss, but the guide now helpfully mentions it). I thought the climbing was great, in a stunning location, and with just the right amount of gear to maintain the balance between feeling adventurous and being objectively safe. There are few VSs I've enjoyed more. Any competent VS leading party should be fine, but I wouldn't recommend to those just breaking into the grade!

The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to cliveoap:
Interesting thoughts Clive, I do have my doubts about Green Slab, but like Tremadog Gogarth is not best represented by its VS routes. However I think both these venues should be in, at Tremadog Craig-Dhu Wall is HS and in Classic Rock, One Step was certainly considered, but there was more support for Grim Wall as far as I could discern. Green Slab is an adventurous route by all accounts and this aspect of the UK climbing scene should not be ignored, Lighthouse Arete Direct seems like the most obvious alternative Gogarth suggestion and has certainly had support on the thread. Do you have any thoughts on LH Arete?
Gordon Stainforth - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Does anyone else find it a bit puzzling that only one Cloggy VS gets in, while two - quite rightly - get in on Scafell? I think that Kirksus's monster classic Great Slab on Cloggy is a finer route than his Kirkus's Route on Craig yr Ogof, for example.
ojp - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=18936

Plumb Line - Running Hill Pitts
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Great Slab appears as part of the (now HVS) Great/Bow combination in Hard Rock and it got left out on that basis.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to ojp:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> Plumb Line - Running Hill Pitts

Certainly looks a good line but I would say for a pure jamming line The File just edges it and including both maybe overegging it.
Pagan - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to cliveoap:

> So back to Green Slab. If its on the list people will go there. If I ever have to do it again it will be a only as a very serious escape route!!!!
If anyone likes good strong safe belays take a shovel and some scaffolding and a tube of "Sticks Like Shit" as well for good measure.
Or better still take it off the list before a tragedy occurs

Did you say the same to Ken Wilson about Mousetrap when he put that in Hard Rock? You could level the same arguments at him about that - it's probably more serious than GS as there is some tricky climbing on poor rock with poor gear, especially on the first two pitches.

It's a fairly pointless debate, tbh. These routes are dreadful to some (usually those who don't like quirky rock and committing but easy climbing) and great adventures to others - the qualities that appeal to one party may be the same qualities that put others off. Personally I think it's a great adventure in awe-inspiring surroundings. Sure, the climbing's unbalanced and the rock occasionally a little soft but anyone going into Mousetrap Zawn expecting anything else is either a fool or hasn't read the guidebook properly. Lighthouse Arete Direct is a particularly bland and uninspired replacement - I'd have thought Green Light might be a suitable alternative but I haven't done it.
Al Evans on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Pagan: I personally think Green Slab is far more serious than Mousetrap, more like E1/HVS than VS.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to TraceyR: Aries is a beautiful pure line, nice (but easy for VS) moves after a 4b/c traverse at the bottom. The traverse is well protected, on the arete I found one good runner at just over half height so it is Bold in the extreme ...I liked the focus this brought to the climbing, felt much like a solo. The bay is dry at low tide so the water is always too shallow to cushion a fall!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=117578
I posted this higher up the thread, but no harm in showing it again. The little bay there is stunning.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Pagan: Lighthouse Arete Direct is a particularly bland and uninspired replacement - I'd have thought Green Light might be a suitable alternative but I haven't done it.

Anyone out there got any thoughts on Green Light, it is in hardly any logbooks and has no voting on UKC to date.
Pagan - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Al Evans:

It really isn't - Mousetrap has sections on the first and second pitches where falling off would be inadvisable, the rock isn't beyond suspicion and the climbing is 5a/b. I was expecting a horror show from GS based on comments on here and it turned out to be very amenable - the hardest climbing is on good rock with decent gear (and is very short lived) and the only really worrying section was topping out, which is no worse than the average Lundy topout. You must have been having a bad day on GS.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Gordon Stainforth - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth) Great Slab appears as part of the (now HVS) Great/Bow combination in Hard Rock and it got left out on that basis.

But it isn't even mentioned as 'featuring in Hard Rock'. Surely it should go in next to the Classic Rock ones?


Gordon Stainforth - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

But I didn't mean the Great/Bow hybrid.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Great Slab is undoubtedly a worthy contender in its own right, but with the combination route already in Hard Rock I feel it is too similar a selection to include. If this list was made without reference to CR & HR it would be in.
CurlyStevo - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Proud corner is quite nice but really not one of the best vs in the uk. Groved arête on the buchaille and butterknife on Garbh bienne ( sic?) need adding
graeme jackson - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to JDal:
> On WP, fiddling wires in those flakes once you're past the obvious good one makes it feel like an HVS unless you've lots of stamina, and it's not good gear - the flakes could snap. In the logbooks 32 out of 46 think it's VS or top end VS.

Better off blasting past the flakes to bung a bomber friend in the horizontal break above.
Slab and Wall round the corner gives good variety from delicate slab climbing to thuggy jug hauling above.

There's too many peak district routes on the list

Lorraine gets my vote and just to offer some variety I'm going to suggest Long Layback crack at simonside for 30ft or so of very sustained climbing (it'll probably not make the list as the walk in is too far)

TRip - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Pagan:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
>
I was expecting a horror show from GS based on comments on here and it turned out to be very amenable

I've done Green Slab too, because I was too scared to warm up on Mousetrap (I did that after). I thought it was scrappy climbing on poor rock, with a very dangerous top out. I nearly knocked off a large block which could have killed my belayer.

The climbing is never difficult, but it isn't particularly good or memorable.

To put Green Slab up there with the likes of Eliminate A and Diocese is farcical.

I'm tempted by this Green Light. I might go and do it this weekend and report back.

Tom

pec on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>
> Does anyone else find it a bit puzzling that only one Cloggy VS gets in, while two - quite rightly - get in on Scafell? I think that Kirksus's monster classic Great Slab on Cloggy is a finer route than his Kirkus's Route on Craig yr Ogof, for example.
>

I'm afraid I have to disagree, Kirkus' Route on Craig yr Ogof has sustained interest throughout its entire length (and as an aside is even better done in 2 huge pitches for which you'd need 60m ropes) whereas Great Slab on Cloggy is all over too soon and deteriorates to easy climbing lacking in character and line above.
I found it quite disappointing and only worthy of one star.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:
> To put Green Slab up there with the likes of Eliminate A and Diocese is farcical.
>
That is what bugs me about this selection, more than the dangerous/adventurous* nature of the route (*delete as appropriate to your nervous disposition).

> I'm tempted by this Green Light. I might go and do it this weekend and report back.
>
>That would be really appreciated, what do you think of Lighthouse Direct by the way?

Pagan - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

> The climbing is never difficult, but it isn't particularly good or memorable.

> I thought it was scrappy climbing on poor rock, with a very dangerous top out.

Like I said before, you could say exactly the same about Mousetrap, and that gets regular plaudits (and rightly so) from those who've done it. And, as I also said before, to moan about the quality of the rock is missing the point. Wrecker's Slab is pretty crap rock too but no one's suggested that shouldn't be on the list. It's the experience that counts and Green Slab is most definitely an experience, and a pretty unique one for the grade.

I don't know how you pulled a block off it though. I didn't remove a single hold and neither did my partner. More dieting needed perhaps. And at risk of repeating myself yet again, if you think the top out on Green Slab is bad, I'd cancel any pending trips to Lundy you might have.
Pagan - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I remember very little about Eliminate A (always thought it was overhyped). I doubt I'll forget Green Slab in a hurry - same with any route in Mousetrap Zawn really!

I find it odd that no one's suggested Wrecker's be taken off the list for similar reasons - I mean, that's pretty crap on some levels too - average rock quality, repetitive moves, mostly about V.Diff with one harder move - yet undeniably an cool adventure. Green Slab is the same but a bit more so, if you get me.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to graeme jackson:
>> There's too many peak district routes on the list
>
Well the Peak is one of the epicentres of British climbing, and to be honest considering the flood of nominations for Peak District routes I'm amazed I have kept it down to the current level.
For what it's worth I'm inclined to agree with you, but one of the principles the list has been trying to listen and respond to the broad range of opinions expressed in this thread.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Pagan:
> (In reply to Tom Ripley)
if you think the top out on Green Slab is bad, I'd cancel any pending trips to Lundy you might have.

The same could be said of most of the big routes at Swanage too, but that doesn't prevent them being regarded as Classics.
ajjmoulam - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Richard Baynes:
> I nwas just about to say Mur Y Niwl, never HVS: I havbe climbed it, found it straightforeqard, therefor=VS. I think Tony Mowlem would be rightly disappointed if it wasn't on the list.

You are right! I would like to think Mur y Niwl was in the list, and agree at the VS grade.
TRip - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Pagan:

Maybe if you were a VS leader then Green Slab would be an amazing adventure. However i thought it was just easy, but dangerous slab climbing. I didn't pull a hold off, i touched a block and it nearly plummeted towards my belayer.

The only thing I can remember about Green Slab is knocking a hold off and nearly killing Heather.

If it was going in such a book then it would surely be as the "Ravens Gully" joke route.
TRip - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Why don't you open this list up to HVS too. Also adding HVS and VS together could give a list of 80 truly superb routes.

One of the best things about Hard Rock is how it inspires people to climb harder. When I first got read hard rock I could barely second Gimmer Crack. Now I've lead things like Vector and Mousetrap. Hopefully I'll get good enough to lead Great Wall.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) Proud corner is quite nice but really not one of the best vs in the uk. Groved arête on the buchaille and butterknife on Garbh bienne ( sic?) need adding

Well all three of these routes look pretty good to me, but my shoehorn can't get them all in. If only Raven's Gully could be ditched!
The relative merits of Scavenger (Three Cliffs) and Questor (Wyndcliffe) seem more questionable than most in the list although I feel the Wye Valley should definitely be represented. Perhaps Scavenger is disposable, Osiris looks the better of the two lines on Gower ...then there is room for one more of the Scottish routes.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Why don't you open this list up to HVS too. Also adding HVS and VS together could give a list of 80 truly superb routes.

...and I thought I was so close to finishing! ;-)
The reasoning behind limiting it to VS is to fill the gap between Classic and Hard Rock, so if you are strolling up the routes in this selection then it is time to go looking for those Hard Rock ticks.
Pursued by a bear - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)

> The relative merits of Scavenger (Three Cliffs) and Questor (Wyndcliffe) seem more questionable than most in the list although I feel the Wye Valley should definitely be represented.

Questor, nice route though it is, definitely feels in company more exalted than it should keep but I too think the Wye valley should be represented. The grade police will screech, but I understand that Zelda was the original choice for the book that never was about VS climbs and if not that, then Cheetah on Wintour's Leap would be (and I think was, way back up the thread) my proposal. Shorncliffe is another venue that saves the best for HVS.

T.

victim of mathematics - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:
> (In reply to Pagan)
>
> Maybe if you were a VS leader then Green Slab would be an amazing adventure.

I don't know if you're being ignorant or patronising here, but neither is very flattering to you.

One could just as well suggest that you're a bit of a pansy who needs to man up...

However i thought it was just easy,

Well anybody who leads much harder than VS is going to have that problem with all of the routes on this list!

I didn't pull a hold off, i touched a block and it nearly plummeted towards my belayer.

I have no idea where this might have been. There were no detached blocks of any size anywhere to be seen except in the earth on the top out.

Every person who complains about Green Slab being loose makes me weep a little more for the spirit of adventure that nobody seems to have these days...


TRip - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:

Whatever...

I've got a pretty reasonable sense of adventure thanks.

I've done the route in question and plenty of the others on the list. It just isn't in the same league.

Green Slab is an enjoyable climb, but it is of a similar level of quality to Bezel. It certainly isn't Dream of White Horses.
ads.ukclimbing.com
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Pursued by a bear: Yes, the Wye conundrum ...the best routes are all above or below the VS grade. Zelda is great but HS (I've done easier VS climbs though), Cheetah gets HVS, Nibelheim and Freedom are good at VS but probably inferior to Questor. One Less White Nigger is the best VS I've done at Shorn Cliff, but pales next to the great HVSs there ...due to the perfect protection I'd rate Laughing Cavaliers top end VS, but the guide says HVS so that is out too.
Pursued by a bear - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Is Cheetah HVS now? Well well. I presume nothing's fallen off it especially, it's just that views of the sporting start have changed over time.

I agree with your comments about other Wye Valley routes.

T.
andy farnell - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Why are there no routes from Lancashire in that list?

Mohammed the Mad Monk (Denham) and Samarkand (Anglezarke) are worthy of inclusion.

Andy F
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to andy farnell: Jean Jeanie is a Lancashire route and in the list, Mohammed the Mad Monk of Moorside Home for Mental Misfits would be good to get in, but what goes? Considered Anglezarke routes too, but think they are close but no cigar.
Lord of Starkness - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to andy farnell:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) Why are there no routes from Lancashire in that list?
>
> Mohammed the Mad Monk (Denham) and Samarkand (Anglezarke) are worthy of inclusion.

They're every bit as good as Jean Jeanie and considerably less polished, and they're also in pleasant locations which you can't always say about disused quarries.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Lord of Starkness: There are probably 50 or more choices that are beyond dispute, but it is always going to be the last few routes that cause the debate. There are a number of alternative choices that could be made that wouldn't weaken the selection, but I'm not certain they would improve it either. I think there is minor revision to come and I am doing my best to research the routes I haven't climbed and gauge feedback on them from those that have.
TRip - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Has anyone nominated Marik at Jackdaw Scar? That's a gem of a route at VS 5a.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=40108

Yellow Slab on Scafell East Buttress should be in there. It gets HVS 4c, but I don't understand why. http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7057
victim of mathematics - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
> (In reply to andy farnell)
> [...]
>
> they're also in pleasant locations which you can't always say about disused quarries.

I'm sorry, are you trying to suggest Anglezarke is a 'pleasant location'? I like the climbing there, and I'll surely go back, but it's a grotty hole in ground with a high chance of having your car stolen from the car park. If that's what counts as pleasant in Lancashire then I'll not be doing much more exploring in that neck of the woods...
Dave Garnett - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to CurlyStevo)

> The relative merits of Scavenger (Three Cliffs) and Questor (Wyndcliffe) seem more questionable than most in the list although I feel the Wye Valley should definitely be represented. Perhaps Scavenger is disposable,

The problem with Scavenger is that it's a great line and looks amazing from a distance, but the climbing is actually pretty scruffy. I remember it being strangely awkward, samey and unsatisfying. Difficult to describe but definitely a let-down, given the line. A similar-looking route, Urizen at Baggy, is arguably a more impressive line than its neighbour, Lost Horizon, but LH is VS crack climbing perfection, and a candidate for best single pitch VS in Britain. Urizen is just the line of the abseil, in comparison.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Dave Garnett: Yes the line and location are great points about Scavenger, best climbed in a race against the tide! I thought the climbing was OK, but not very challenging for VS with no really engaging sequences.
Lost Horizon is a classic, did this a couple of weeks ago for the first time. Protection immaculate and climbing sustained and challenging for VS, the location is also fantastic. Didn't climb it but Urizen next door looked rather vegetated and scruffy by comparison.
allysingo - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
I thought Trowbarrow was quite a pleasant location, surprisingly so actually, I was expecting something a little more austere, grey and grim but it was quite lush and green. Worth a visit if you've not been there.
Paul Bennett - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to Dave Garnett) Yes the line and location are great points about Scavenger, best climbed in a race against the tide! I thought the climbing was OK, but not very challenging for VS with no really engaging sequences.

Why not include Scavenger together with Arch Slab?
alasdair19 on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: despite what aberdonians will say pass of b is crap, may crack is a relative unknown on the buaichaille. I'd think something on E face of N buttress or rannoch wall would be better
garbh beinn has a great rep, not dome much on it though
victim of mathematics - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to allysingo:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> I thought Trowbarrow was quite a pleasant location, surprisingly so actually, I was expecting something a little more austere, grey and grim but it was quite lush and green. Worth a visit if you've not been there.

Trowbarrow is indeed quite nice. It's Anglezarke (and Wilton, and Egerton etc etc) that isn't.

pec on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
> [...]> (In reply to The Ivanator) Why are there no routes from Lancashire in that list?
>
> Mohammed the Mad Monk (Denham) and Samarkand (Anglezarke) are worthy of inclusion.

>
> They're every bit as good as Jean Jeanie and considerably less polished, and they're also in pleasant locations which you can't always say about disused quarries.
>
Mohammed and Samarkand are decent routes but they're not in the same league as Jean Jeanie which is quite possibly the finest single pitch VS I've ever done and although polished it doesn't actually affect the climbing.
I'm a big fan of quarried grit but have struggled to think of a VS worthy of inclusion in the top 100. I'm not even sure I'd include the Mall (is it still in there?) but at least its on the finest quarried gritstone crag in the land.
I just don't think quarried grit is as its best at VS whereas if we were after a top 100 HVS's it would be a different story.

Trowbarrow is also a much more pleasant venue than either Anglezarke or Denham.



pec on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I don't think its been mentioned yet but one of the finest VS outings has got to be the Idwal enchainment of The East Wall Girdle (The Slabs) followed by Original Route (Holly Tree Wall) then Diagonal Route (Continuation Wall) and finally Grey Slab (The Upper Cliff).
12 pitches and 1000 feet of superb VS climbing (2 of them are 3 star routes in their own right) liked by some very pleasant scrambling in a superb setting.
Its hard to beat at the grade or any grade for that matter.

I don't want to throw a spanner in the works at this stage and I realise you can't squeeze in 4 more routes but if you're planning on a major VS assault of the UK next summer I'd highly recommend this itinerary, if you haven't done it already of course.
The Ivanator - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to pec: Grey Slab is in (from Classic Rock) but I agree the combination looks a fine outing and definitely one I'll be looking to tick next year.
Hardonicus - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

Marik may be the finest VS in the Eden Valley but it is not of national standard.

Also solid 4c in my book!
markhammonds - on 18 Nov 2010
It seems that Tacitation (Kyloe) is the Northumberland sandstone route that makes it on the list. Is this definitely the best one? How does Marcher Lord (Berryhill) compare? Afraid I haven't done either yet so can't comment.
Rick Sewards - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Just thought I’d belatedly stick my oar in – great list, but there’s always room for improvement

A couple of Lakes votes (the Lakes is fantastic at VS for some reason – think it could do with a few more) – another tentative vote for Communist Convert, and has anyone mentioned Grendel on Scrubby Crag? It’s a long time since I did either, but have good memories of them – and Grendel would increase the legwork for tickers, which has got to be a good thing... If Eagle’s Nest Direct (graded MVS) qualifies, I think it should go in, for quality and history.

I think Lavaredo should go back in, but maybe that’s also rose-tinted spectacles, and I’d put Longland’s in as well, especially if Great/Bow is now considered HVS and therefore doesn’t qualify. There must be something in Glencoe surely, probably on the Buachaille – Red Slab (was good till I went off-route), Hiccup (err... ditto)? Maybe something on Great Gully Buttress (speculating now, I haven’t been there)?

I’d put in a vote for The Edge at Loudoun Hill, which would be easily the worst crag on the list, but the route is quite unique as far as I know.

To make room for some more...

Ardgarten Arete surely isn’t VS is it? Only HS in my (fairly recent) Scottish select guide, with a comment that it may be easier, which fits with my recollection. And you’ve already got a nailed-on certainty on the Cobbler with the WW/WW combo, which is VS and is fabulous. And Raven Gully is now graded HVS, so you don’t have to leave that in.

For the rest, I’m afraid Phantom Rib gets a thumbs down - didn’t do it for me at all. I’m with the No votes for Scavenger as well.

Oh, and most importantly, based on your most recent list... 59

Cheers
Rick
ads.ukclimbing.com
sjminfife - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Rick Sewards: At last another vote for The Edge at Loudon Hill.
It's a great climb in a great situation and it looks great when viewed from a distance. I wish I could vote for Red Slab as well but despite my plans I never got to do it this year. But whatever's on the list it'll inspire us to look a bit further and find even more routes.....plenty for a second list.
sjm
Gordon Stainforth - on 18 Nov 2010
In reply to Rick Sewards:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Just thought I’d belatedly stick my oar in – great list, but there’s always room for improvement
>
> If Eagle’s Nest Direct (graded MVS) qualifies, I think it should go in, for quality and history.

I've mentioned that before, but it was received by a wall of silence.

> I think Lavaredo should go back in, but maybe that’s also rose-tinted spectacles,

Yes, a bit, because really it's quite a small route, with all the really excellence concentrated in about the last 40-50 feet. 2 and half stars. Not as good as Oxine, which in many ways is similar.

>and I’d put Longland’s in as well, especially if Great/Bow is now considered HVS and therefore doesn’t qualify.

Well, yes, for sheer mood, length and exposure it's in the stratosphere compared with about 90 per cent of the offerings on this list. I may be in a minority of one but I thought Pigott's was marginally better.

> For the rest, I’m afraid Phantom Rib gets a thumbs down - didn’t do it for me at all. I’m with the No votes for Scavenger as well.

Agreed with your assessment with both of these. They're nice two-star routes at best. Phantom Rib is particularly disjointed, has no line whatever - all its merit being in its very good top pitch.

The Ivanator - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to Rick Sewards: Thanks for the input Rick, I'm delighted to scrub Raven's Gully as an HVS and not heartbroken about Ardgarten either.
So if I was to replace Phantom Rib with another from the pass would Shadow Wall be an improvement or perhaps I need to bow to the suggestion of another from Cloggy.
Would be interested in your thoughts on best Gogarth and Tremadog choices at the grade.
TRip - on 19 Nov 2010
Just because a route is popular and enjoyable, doesn't mean that it is of national standard. Far more climbers will have done Adam at Shepherds, compared to Grendel on Scrubby. However I'd argue that the latter is of far better quality.

The Lakes list could do with a reshuffle.

• Eliminate A and Murray’s Direct (Dow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3348 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3364

Get rid of Murray Direct. It is a fine route, but not of national standard.

• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4183 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4193

Fair play.

• Haste Not (White Ghyll) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9178

Not done it, but I understand it is supposed to be superb.

• Botterill's Slab and Mickledore Grooves (Scafell) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6978 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7076

Fair Play.

• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7542

Good, but also very roadside. Adam, Eve and Ardus would be a fairer representation. Personally I'd sack these off and replace with Grendel on Scrubby Crag. The main pitch on that is superb.

• North-West Climb (Pillar) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6357

Not done. But something on Pillar should be in there.

• Eagle Front (Buttermere) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3478

Very good.

• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1842

Very good, but pretty stiff for VS.

• Rake End Wall (Pavey Ark) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=5985

Have you done this? It's okay, but hardly of national standard.

I'd sack it off and replace with Innominate and Kern Knotts Cracks. These are some the oldest rock climbing in the UK and both a brilliant.

• Jean Jeanie (Trowbarrow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=21673

Fair Play.

• Flake Crack (Helsby) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=19058

Not done it.

The other route that hasn't been included is Square Cut Chimney/Medusa Wall on Esk Buttress. It would be a pity if such a fine crag was omitted from this list.

Also considering that Ken Wilson's aim of Hard Rock was for climbers to open their eyes and visit new place, I'd strongly recommend the inclusion of Marik at Jackdaw Scar.
cliveoap - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Reply to Pagan
I knew Ken Wilson well when he used to stay in Cwm-y-rack, Jock's bunkhouse in Nant Peris in the mid 60's.Off course Gogarth had yet to be discovered then. We were both from Birmingham.
In Hard or Classic Rock there is a route called South Butress Direct? on Arran. I went there just to tick it off about 10 years ago. From wot I can remember its a 1 move route in stunning situations. A short crack with a bulge on its right? When I got there there was a university party there and the last one had come out of the crack and was under the bulge on the rope.
No damage but very gripped. The 3 above him handn't a clue how to get him up. It didnt occur to them to lower him then get a runner above him and bring him up that way. They were not experianced enough for THAT route when things went wrong. As it is they spent a cold night on the ridge.
Its unthinkable to blame Ken Wilson of course but people need to know these are serious places with dire consequences if thing go wrong when people havn't the experience to handle it.
Your comment's re Mousetrap. Most competent E2 leaders think Mousetrap is more like top end E1. Some comments on here think Green Slab is more like easy E1 and thats from far better more experienced climbers that me. And like me they put there real name to their views.

Reply to Ivanator
Lighthoust Direct is OK and just that
Never done Green Light as I got lost on the way in. Its going to get busy now after this lot.
Dont try and include Green Slab or any VS at Gogarth because you think you should have one as its totally the wrong reason but im sure you know that without me bringing it to your notice.
Gogarth is a serious place, I love Dream but wont go near it at the weekends. About 4 years ago Denny Moorhouse's son Harry was doing it in front of me. He took off 7 or 8 brand new slings compeate with shiny new crabs on them. We thought the 2nd was too gripped to follow and the leader pulled the ropes through and dropped them down Concrete Chimmney to him.
No an advert in Pete's found the owner who said the 2nd followed him but was too gripped to take the runners out/off and drop them over his head. There is not a single move more than middle VS on that pitch and he must have done the harder pitches to get there. All on good sound rock
Ive seen a leader on the last pitch only clip 1 rope, the other rope was hanging across the Zawn pulling the 2nd of the rock!!!!!
Castell Helen, 15 people on the 1/2 ledge none of them moving. Same place
Girl clipped into an in place ab rope wondering why she could,nt move ??
20 mins later all became apparent when the guy who was prussicking up it came into view. He most have thought he could lead VS before he went down there I presume.
Gogarth has by far more than its fair share of epics.
Green Slab is different and theres far better climbers than me also think its shall we say to serious on awful rock? to advertise it to the shall we say less experienced. Adventure it may be to the competent, but to some of the VS leaders I have seen over the last few years it could be there last never mind the easily led poor 2nd.
Can we start on the HVS now
Concreate Chimney
Wen
Spider Wall
Britomartis
Scavenger Direct
Dream
And Tremadoc
Scratch Arete only 2 stars?
Stromboli 2 stars and 3 overhangs
Merlin Direct
Leg Slip
ops im off to bed before I wish id kept my mouth shut again

Cheers Clive


The Ivanator - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to cliveoap: I have been thinking that Wrecker's Slab has the adventurous sea cliff slot tied up and most VS leaders will be fine on this, despite questionable rock in places it is comfortably within the grade technically ...sounds like the same cannot be said of the Green Slab.
Lighthouse may not be great in Gogarth terms but it still looks a pretty good route to me and a better introduction to Gogarth for someone who has not got a couple of grades in hand (like myself!). Looking at the routes I know I'd be happy to jump on Lighthouse but would want a stronger partner with me to tackle Green Slab.
The Ivanator - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:
>
> Get rid of Murray Direct. It is a fine route, but not of national standard.
>
In my opinion Murray's is the equal of Eliminate A and others share this view. It is of national standard.

> • Rake End Wall (Pavey Ark) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=5985
>
> Have you done this? It's okay, but hardly of national standard.
>
>Not climbed it, but Pavey is a less fashionable crag these days and so as you mention elsewhere it is not a bad idea to encourage a few climbers away from their usual Roadside haunts. The walk in from Grasmere via Easedale Tarn is particularly fine.

> The other route that hasn't been included is Square Cut Chimney/Medusa Wall on Esk Buttress. It would be a pity if such a fine crag was omitted from this list.

This route has been mentioned by others and is worth serious consideration.
The Ivanator - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
OK, I know some of these changes are courting controversy, but I have considered each one carefully, so here is the revised list (Part 1):

100 of the Best VS Climbs in the UK

South West 14 (2):
• Silhouette Arete (Boulder Ruckle) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=14459
• Little Brown Jug and Anvil Chorus (Bosigran) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=852 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=859
• Diocese and South Face Direct (Chair Ladder) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1991 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1957
• Wrecker's Slab (Cornakey Cliff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2401
• Lost Horizon and Kinkyboots (Baggy Point) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=389 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=402
• Albion and Diamond Solitaire (Lundy) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33518 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33740
• Giant’s Cave Buttress (Avon) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=30748
• Inkerman Groove (Chudleigh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26052
• Leviathan (Dewerstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26062
• Whitt (Symonds Yat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34905

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Piton Route (Avon) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=32335
Climber’s Club Ordinary (The Dewerstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=26070

South Wales 4:
• Osiris (Fall Bay) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29499
• Blue Sky (Saddle Head) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24624
• Armorican (Craig Caerfai) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2545
• Questor (Wyndcliffe) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33154

North Wales 11 (2):
• Lighthouse Arete Direct (Gogarth) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4363
• Curving Crack and Longland’s Climb (Clogwyn Du’r Arddu) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2180 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2203
• Sabre Cut (Dinas Cromlech) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3183
• The Direct Route (Dinas Mot) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3259
• Belle View Bastion (Tryfan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=50629
• Grim Wall (Craig Bwlch y Moch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2513
• Kirkus’s Route (Craig yr Ogof) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2939
• Doom (Craig Cywarch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=36752
• Mur y Niwl (Craig Yr Ysfa) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29164
• Oxine (Clogwyn y Wenallt) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2317

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Nea (Clogwyn y Grochan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2240
Grey Slab (Glyder Fawr) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=29215

Peak District 9 (5):
• Mississippi Buttress Direct (Stanage) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10252
• Valkyrie (Roaches) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16011
• Tower Face (Laddow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15807
• The Mall (Millstone) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10792
• Golden Yardstick (Wildcat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=22709
• Bachelor’s Climb (Hen Cloud) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16157
• Phoenix Climb (Shining Clough) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15051
• Fairy Nuff (Standing Stones) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16695
• The File (Higgar Tor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=74758

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
Topsail (Birchen) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=11229
Central Climb (Hen Cloud) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16124
Via Dolorosa (Roaches) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16007
Hargreave’s Original (Stanage) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10340
And at VS in Hard Rock:
Chee Tor Girdle (Chee Tor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=12245


The Ivanator - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: & part 2:

Lake District and NW 14 (2):
• Eliminate A and Murray’s Direct (Dow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3348 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3364
• NW Arete/F Route (Gimmer) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4183 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4193
• Haste Not (White Ghyll) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9178
• Botterill's Slab and Mickledore Grooves (Scafell) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6978 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7076
• Adam (Shepherd’s Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7542
• North-West Climb (Pillar) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=6357
• Eagle Front (Buttermere) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3478
• Overhanging Bastion (Castle Rock) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1842
• Square Chimney/Medusa Wall (Esk Buttress) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=40143
• Jean Jeanie (Trowbarrow) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=21673
• Flake Crack (Helsby) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=19058

In addition the following VS routes feature in Hard Rock:
Engineer’s Slabs (Gable) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38847
The Crack (Gimmer) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4178

North Yorkshire and Northumberland 7:
• The Night Watch (Whitestone Cliffe) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28506
• Frankland’s Green Crack (Almscliff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=57
• Arete Direct (Simons Seat) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33810
• Birch Tree Wall (Brimham) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28051
• Tacitation (Kyloe Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=37790
• Pinnacle Face (Crag Lough) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33541
• Marcher Lord (Berryhill) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=626

Scotland 22 (5):
• Original Route (Old Man of Stoer) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=126708
• Butterknife (Garbh Beinn) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4111
• The Edge (Loudon Hill) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31354
• Grooved Arete (Buachaille Etive Mor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38186
• The Mousetrap (Craig an Dubh Loch) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2985
• Scabbard (Creag a'choire Etchachan) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2961
• King Bee (Creag Dubh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3010
• Fallout Corner (Coire an Lochain) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31326
• Phantom Slab (Polldubh) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=40862
• Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=456
• Sword of Gideon (Sgurr a’Chaorachain) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7427
• Black Pig and Black Gold (Reiff) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34969 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=34973
• Pain Pillar (Hawkcraig) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=31435
• Fionn Buttress (Carnmore Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=1667
• Whether Wall/Wither Whether (the Cobbler) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8119 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=8117
• Jamie Jampot (Suidhe Biorach) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=53382
• Shangri-La (Sron na Ciche) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=38923
• Grand Diedre (Sgurr Alastair) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7436
• Perfect Groove (Eshaness Lighthouse) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=55077
• The Groove (Dunkeld, Craig a Barns) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=3422

In addition the following VS routes feature in Classic Rock:
The Long Climb (Ben Nevis) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=556
The Chasm (Buachaille Etive Mor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=63947
Clean Sweep (Hell’s Lum) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=4766
And at VS in Hard Rock:
South Ridge Direct (Cir Mhor) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=2096
The Great Prow (Blaven) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=674

Northern Ireland 3:
• The Fence and Girona (Fairhead) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=51538 http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=36937
• Agag’s Wall (Lower Cove, Mournes) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=85802


cliveoap - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Light House Direct is great but its not Gogarth. A good intro to North Wales sea cliffe.
Anyone over there go and do Tension on Holyhead Mountain. Not in the top 80 but if it was in the Pass their would be a snake of people on it.
Cheers Clive
The Ivanator - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to cliveoap: Yes, Lighthouse is probably not archetypal Gogarth and Green Slab is a bit too Gogarth! There is not a perfect Gogarth selection, and excluding Gogarth is the other option, but I think this would be result in the loudest howls of protest of all!
I await feedback on Green Light and hope this may prove the solution.
cliveoap - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to cliveoap:

Sorry I forgot typical Gogarth
To early in the morning for my age
cliveoap - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
I think you hit the nail on the head with that last comment
Hey im looking at Cloggy with just a wisp of cloud over it and not a cloud over the Island.
Time for a stroll around The Slate....Any good VS,s up there?
Please Im only joking honest.......
Take care Clive
Al Evans on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: It´s quite amazing how Golden Yardstick is rated these days, we must have completely underrated it on the first ascent.
We thought it was just another Peak limestone VS/HVS we´d done.
GrahamD - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I would have thought is it Rap or Pel are more Gogarth in feel than Lighthouse arete
Al Evans on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to GrahamD: I would agree.
victim of mathematics - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley:

>
> • Adam (Shepherd’s Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7542
>
> Good, but also very roadside.

Is that a good reason not to include something? Stanage was pretty roadside last time I checked...

> Also considering that Ken Wilson's aim of Hard Rock was for climbers to open their eyes and visit new place, I'd strongly recommend the inclusion of Marik at Jackdaw Scar.

I've not done Marik, but I have been to Jackdaw Scar, and as intriguing a place as it is, is it really come to one of the best VSs in the country? And doesn't the guidebook give it HVS anyway?

In reply to Tom Ripley:
>
>
> Also considering that Ken Wilson's aim of Hard Rock was for climbers to open their eyes and visit new place, I'd strongly recommend the inclusion of Marik at Jackdaw Scar.

What makes you think that was his aim considering it was published in 1974 - 16 years before you were born?


Chris
victim of mathematics - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to cliveoap:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> Light House Direct is great but its not Gogarth. A good intro to North Wales sea cliffe.

I concur. But as has already been mentioned several times, Green Slab is orders of magnitude more solid than Mousetrap, which is heralded as a classic, and features in Hard Rock. To rule out Green Slab for being "too Gogarth" is ridiculous, it's hardly Deathtrap Direct. The list is substantially poorer for its exclusion, and as I've said before it saddens me that people seem to be so unadventurous (and I don't mean adventure in the old-fashioned sandbagging sense, either).

> Anyone over there go and do Tension on Holyhead Mountain. Not in the top 80 but if it was in the Pass their would be a snake of people on it.
> Cheers Clive

I actually suggested that in my first post on this thread. It's a brilliant route. I always feel Holyhead Mountain gets a bit undersold as a result of being next to Gogarth. It'd be a fairly major crag if it where pretty much anywhere else.

victim of mathematics - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to Tom Ripley)
> [...]
>
> What makes you think that was his aim considering it was published in 1974 - 16 years before you were born?
>
>
> Chris

And even if that was his aim, what bearing does that have on the aim (or not) of this list?
ads.ukclimbing.com
victim of mathematics - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

By the way, I can't remember if I've mentioned this, but Fallout Corner? I don't remember that being anything special. Prore, however, is pretty awesome climbing in a really 'out there' situation. I wouldn't be that surprised if neither of them made the final cut, but I'm really not convinced about Fallout Corner.
Pagan - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

> I await feedback on Green Light and hope this may prove the solution.

It's the only viable alternative really (assuming it's any good). Lighthouse Arete Direct/Rap/Pel/generic Castell Helen VS are fine routes but no better than any of the Pembroke suggestions which were dismissed earlier in the thread (in fact, Toil and Trouble in The Cauldron is far more memorable than any of these).

Personally, if we're going to follow the twisted logic of a book being responsible for potentially getting people into trouble rather than the individuals themselves, I wouldn't want to be putting a route in which lies on land owned by a notoriously violent farmer (unless he's gone - anyone know?).
Pagan - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to cliveoap:

> Your comment's re Mousetrap. Most competent E2 leaders think Mousetrap is more like top end E1. Some comments on here think Green Slab is more like easy E1 and thats from far better more experienced climbers that me

Well, you can take it from another 'far better more experienced climber' (I assume, you don't have a profile so I don't have a lot to go on) that it's definitely not the same grade as Mousetrap.

> And like me they put there real name to their views.

Now this bit is priceless. Unless 'cliveoap' is what your parents christened you (did they?) how do you possibly imagine that tells me any more about you than 'Pagan' does about me? At the very least, I have a profile, which gives a rough indication of my ability and experience. If you can be bothered to do a search, my real name is out there.

FWIW, I'd echo Victim's comments above - it's a real shame this route has gone from the list, it's a pretty unique route of its type. The fact that it generates strong opinions from those who've done it should speak volumes, as should the fact that people nominating Rap or Pel or whatever can't remember which one's which.
The Ivanator - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Just been looking again at the photos of Rap (& Pel)on the UKC route page, Rap looks fantastic ...if Green Light doesn't come up trumps it looks like Rap is the best alternative. More of a genuine Gogarth experience than Lighthouse and does not appear to be a rickety sandbag, although it looks like an honest challenge at the grade. For the big crumbly cliff lovers Wrecker's Slab is still there.
Rap was almost the first route suggested on the thread, and after the extensive tour of the UK's VSs only now makes the cut. It is something of a compromise choice, but none of the available options is perfect and I do not agree that the list is significantly weaker or stronger on the basis of this one issue.
I know there is always room for further debate, but I do think the list is pretty much spot on now, I have learnt a lot and am looking forward to getting out and ticking a good range of the routes over the next 12 months.
The information, suggestions and feedback on the thread have been fantastic and there is no way I could have compiled the list without these contributions. To all those who moan that UKC isn't what it used to be I offer this thread as proof of what the collective can achieve!
As I have actually climbed very few of the routes myself (only just into double figures) I have lots to look forward to. My limited experience has also been helpful in a way ...my own personal preferences have not got in the way of a balanced (I hope) final set of routes.
What I would really appreciate as a follow up to this is short descriptions of why the routes in the list are SO good. So if you have a favourite you'd like to sing the praises of then please contribute to the forthcoming thread: "What is SO good about the UK's best VS climbs" I will lead this thread with a slightly revised "final" version of the list ...watch this space.
Chris the Tall - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to Pagan:

> FWIW, I'd echo Victim's comments above - it's a real shame this route has gone from the list, it's a pretty unique route of its type. The fact that it generates strong opinions from those who've done it should speak volumes, as should the fact that people nominating Rap or Pel or whatever can't remember which one's which.

Rap and Pel are two very similar lines - I can't tell you which one I've done, but I do remember it was very good - particularly the first pitch, and sitting on the belay watching dolphins swim across the bay (just before it started to rain). Lighthouse Arete is an even better position, and a more obvious line, but I don't think the climbing was particularly good.

So I definately say that one of these 3 routes need to be in there - it's a great introduction to sea cliffs - but it could be any of them

victim of mathematics - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Noooo. I've done one of Rap and Pel, and I can't remember which it was, and I've normally got a pretty good memory for routes. Neither of them got more than one star in the old green guide, and rightly so. If you must believe that Green Slab is a "rickety sandbag" (it's neither) then until Green Light is investigated don't put Rap or Pel in. Tension is much better than either, or just bite the bullet and don't put any Gogarth routes in.
Lord of Starkness - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Lord of Starkness)
> [...]
>
> I'm sorry, are you trying to suggest Anglezarke is a 'pleasant location'? I like the climbing there, and I'll surely go back, but it's a grotty hole in ground with a high chance of having your car stolen from the car park. If that's what counts as pleasant in Lancashire then I'll not be doing much more exploring in that neck of the woods...

Why do you think I've re-discovered the joys of cycling?

Lord of Starkness - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to Tom Ripley
>
> Also considering that Ken Wilson's aim of Hard Rock was for climbers to open their eyes and visit new place, I'd strongly recommend the inclusion of Marik at Jackdaw Scar.

If you were to consider an Eden Valley VS, then Flasherman at Armathwaite or Gadzowt at Lazonby are vastly superior to Marik (I should know, I was Ronnie's second) and have done all 3 in the days of EB's and before cams.

Lazonby and Armathwaite are in better settings than Jackdaw Scar, the routes are longer and just as sustained -- though sadly climbing at Lazonby is still banned nowadays.

The Ivanator - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics: As I said in my last post I do not think the list stands or falls by this one selection, and although clearly more memorable Green Slab is far from a premier 3 star experience as far as I can tell. Along with the suggestions given in the thread the UKC route voting and feedback has been a major influence in the route choices.
Bottom line is I think Gogarth should be there, and there are pros and cons to all the contenders. For what it's worth as a regular Swanage climber I have nothing against the odd rickety adventure!
odox - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

• Tacitation (Kyloe Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=37790
• Pinnacle Face (Crag Lough) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=33541
• Marcher Lord (Berryhill) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=626

All very good. I'd also suggest...

• Wilfred Prickles (Kyloe Crag) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=32328 - Another vote. It's VS as the voting consensus shows.

• The Scoop (Bowden Doors) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=915 - Fantastic route

• Delicatessen (Simonside North Face) http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=46564 - Northumberland's version of Sunset Slab?

The Ivanator - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to odox: I'm sure these are all great routes (WP was a serious contender), but space is at a premium ...what all the fantastic suggestions that haven't made the list demonstrates is the rich variety of quality climbing that the VS grade offers in this country.
Pagan - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

> Bottom line is I think Gogarth should be there, and there are pros and cons to all the contenders.

Yet other venues have been left out because they're better at HVS. Why should Gogarth be exempt?

Most of the VSs I've done in Pembroke are as good or better than Rap, Pel et al and I'd rather see some of them in the list than these - Castell Helen isn't really 'Gogarth' either as it lacks the committing feel and atmosphere of the other crags in the area - someone described it as 'Gogarth-lite' once which I think sums it up.

Incidentally, to the anti-Green Slab brigade who didn't like it 'because the rock wasn't that good' - what were you expecting exactly?! If you don't like odd rock, or committing adventures, it seems strange to go and do it and then complain about it in those terms. It's not like it isn't clearly advertised in the guide as such - it says more about your own literacy/common sense than it does about the route.
The Ivanator - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to Pagan: Well Gogarth isn't Shorn Cliff for example (much as I like that venue ...before anyone starts!). Not having anything at Gogarth would be more akin to having nothing from Cloggy, although leaving it out might actually put a halt to the arguments!
The Ivanator - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to Pagan: Perhaps "Gogarth Lite" is enough for your average VS leader! I suspect so. Pembroke is represented and whilst there are other very good VS routes there nothing really compares favourably to the 2 outstanding selections in the list.
cliveoap - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to Pagan:
Well as I said at 1st I have never commented on here before so never put up a profile and dont suppose I ever will now.
My ability & experience.
Led The Gates 15-5-66 compleat with hemp waistline drilled nuts and tarbuck knots on 3/4 ropes. Thats drag for you
Cliff Philips watching from the road I recall as he commended on the time it took.
I try and do something good most birthdays if its sunny Last time was 13-9-2007 my 63rd birthday. Not that memorable apart from looking down into the cockpit,s of 2 F15's as they came down the pass.My 2nd nearly came off but I gave her fair warning.
Thats a spread of 40+ years I think
Led The Gates & The Corner and down to the road for 12-00 with a very well know climber who can back me up if required. Specter after a rest. (thats hard for HVS) ho birthday again 13-9-2000.
31-9-2002 Same guy as last route fell off the Moon and we had to escape up the The Savage. Is that now E2? dont normally lead more than E1 due to nackered shoulders. Its an age thing, also only do things i can get up due to only having 1 eye, its a pain reversing.
Only epic over those years,you might know Blanco 2nd fell fell off rope ran over the roof, block came off and took 3 tendon's out of her wrist.
Not an epic really She came up 1 armed with a good heave and drove to A&E

Ho I fell of Left Wall once my fault as I hadn't climbed for weeks.
No it was Tim Emmetts fault.He wanted a ride in my Lotus 7 and in return said he would take me up Left Wall.Fingers gave up at the end off the traverse. Cant say I was nailed after taking the gear out he only put 1
runner in!!!! Now that's a climber.
I think I can comment on VS grades and their suitabilty for the easy led
2nd
To be honest I dont give toss as long as that heap off shit is off the list
You may be right but that's a risk with a lot of folk coming straight out of the walls looking for good routes with out the required sense to go with it.
Clive,s the name OAP is the status

Have a nice day. at least im in the sun wasting time watching it pick out The East Buttress of Cloggy
TRip - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to Tom Ripley)
> [...]
>
> What makes you think that was his aim considering it was published in 1974 - 16 years before you were born?
>
>
It says in his introduction to Hard Rock.
TRip - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I'd skip Tremadog too if Gogarth is going to omitted.

I agree with Pagan that Rap and Light House Arete aren't proper Gogarth. They don't offer the absorbing climbing that a say Mousetrap has. At least Green Slab, gives close to a proper Gogarth Experience, albeit a quite dangerous one.

The same goes for Grim Wall. It is a very pleasant and enjoyable one mover wonder, but it would be pretty silly to suggest it is one of the best routes in the country. The same goes for Scratch and One Step...

The VSes at Trem are nice routes, but they aren't in the same league as the Fang, The Plumb or Vector.

What about Snakes and Ladders on the Slate as an honorary adventure route?
cliveoap - on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to victim of mathematics:
We agree at last !!!!! (well on Holyhead Mountain)

Tension VS **
King Bee Crack HVS ***
Breaking The Barrier E1 ***
3 pitchs 7*******
1/2 a day
Its wonderful and add a few sun bronzed wenche's on the flat bloulder's below perfect. Ken Wilson Mountain Craft 1967 page 270 Gogarth Guide
He wrote females I prefer wenche's. Another age thing.

Cheers Clive
Rog Wilko on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to PeteC: Set off up Doom last summer. Rock was filthy, poor quality and moss everywhere. Got halfway up first pitch with two decent bits of gear, next section looked even more hideous. Climbed down and gave up. I know I'm a wuss.....
Rog Wilko on 19 Nov 2010
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) > We thought it was just another Peak limestone VS/HVS we´d done.

Al - you were right. Definitely not worthy.

ads.ukclimbing.com
The Ivanator - on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko:
> (In reply to PeteC) Set off up Doom last summer. Rock was filthy, poor quality and moss everywhere. Got halfway up first pitch with two decent bits of gear, next section looked even more hideous. Climbed down and gave up. I know I'm a wuss.....

Might sound perverse, but this makes me look forward to climbing it even more!
The Ivanator - on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> Al - you were right. Definitely not worthy.

I am easily convinced to shrink the Peak section (No, no I am completely neutral:-) ...anyway I appreciate the feedback and it may inspire a slight reshuffle.
petestack - on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Still not enough in Scotland... so put Proud Corner back?
In reply to Tom Ripley:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
> [...]
> It says in his introduction to Hard Rock.

Touché!

Chris

;-)
sjminfife - on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to petestack: Here's another vote for Proud Corner, I never noticed it being dropped.
sjm
Iain Thow - on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

About 10 years ago I made a similar list. Managed to climb about half of them before a viral problem made completing them unlikely. Glad to see that a large proportion of them are in your list too. If I was making the list now I'd have to find a place for Fallen Star at Logie Head & Lochlann on Tealasdale Slabs on Lewis (although setting has a lot to do with the latter). I have been to all the cliffs & climbed on all of them except Malham & Eagle. So as Blue Peter used to say "Here's one I prepared earlier"
Anvil Chorus
Little Brown Jug
Ochre Slab Route 1
South Face Direct
Diocese
Leviathan
Kinky Boots
Lost Horizon
Albion
Diamond Solitaire
Questor
Scavenger
Blue Sky
Aero
Doom
One Step in the Clouds
Kirkus's Route (Cwm Silyn)
Oxine
Lavaredo Wall
Great Slab
Longland's
Curving Crack
Direct (Dinas Mot)
Lorraine
Phantom Rib
Hawk's Nest Arete
Lot's Groove
Belle Vue Bastion
Mur y Niwl
Flake Crack (Helsby)
Valkyrie
Nozag
Ten Craters of Wisdom
Garrotter
Golden Yardstick
Sphynx
Medusa
Apple Arete
The Brain
Mutiny Crack
The File
Black Slab
Mississippi Buttress Direct
High Neb Buttress
Quien Sabe
Wrinkled Wall
Herford's Route
Misty Wall
Phoenix
Tower Face (Laddow)
Birch Tree Wall (Brimham)
Allan's Crack
Walewska
Terrace Wall (Malham)
Pinnacle Face (Crag Lough)
Lorraine
Tiger's Wall
Tacitation
Jean Jeannie
Eliminate A
Murray's Direct
Slip Knot
Haste Not
NW Arete
Gimmer Crack
F Route
Mickledore Grooves
Botterill's Slab
Moss Ledge Direct
Eagle's Nest Direct
Engineer's Slabs
Grooved Wall
SW Climb
Eagle Front
Eve
Fools Paradise
Spinup
Pain Pillar
Proud Corner
Phantom Slab
South Ridge Direct
Pochmahone
Whither Wether
Spartan Slab
Mousetrap
Black Mamba
Dagger
Scabbard
Clean Sweep
Great Prow
Dawn Grooves
Shangri La
Crack of Double Doom
Trap Face Direct
Sword of Gideon
Fionn Buttress
Gob
Black Magic
Black Gold
Old Man of Stoer

Anyone who's done all of this list (or yours) has my unqualified admiration.
Iain
Iain Thow - on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
I've done the Carpet, supposedly the best of the B a'Bhuird VSs. One nice pitch on the slab plus a beast of a 1 move wonder above, not a special route, but a great end to a day that included Mitre Ridge & Squareface.
Meadow Face on B Tarsuinn (arran) is mostly too hard, but Pochmahone on Goat Fell South Slabs is ace padding.
Iain
Iain Thow - on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Butterknife is brill but only severe really. May Crack is nice climbing but feels trivial relative to the things around it & Lucky Strike is a horrible thuggy thing.
Iain
Rog Wilko on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to petestack:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> Still not enough in Scotland... so put Proud Corner back?

I'd support this - far better than a good number of routes already in (like Golden Yardstick)

The Ivanator - on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko: There seems to be some consensus on this so Proud Corner for Golden Yardstick it is.
pec on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: If you remove Golden Yardstick there isn't a single representative from The Peak District or Yorkshire Dales limestone which would be as great an omission as nothing from Gogarth or Tremadoc, in fact greater as there are way more good VS's to choose from than on either of those crags.
I realise that gritstone is more fashionable than limestone but that doesn't diminish the quality of limestone routes. Wildcat is the best limestone crag at VS in the Peak and is the least affected by polish and Golden Yardstick is the best VS on it and worthy of inclusion.

I'd say the least worthy inclusion in the current list (of those routes I know at least) is Flake Crack at Helsby. Its a good route and the best at the crag but its very short, on rock which is a poor substitute for gritstone and a less than inspiring crag.
I'd happily drive an hour and a half to Wildcat to climb Yardstick and have done several times but I've never been back to Helsby even thoguh its only 20 mins away.
The Ivanator - on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to pec: A convincing argument, thanks for your thoughts. I agree something on Peak Limestone is a must, I also think Proud Corner is probably superior to plenty of the routes South of the border so perhaps Flake Crack is the most vulnerable selection. I'll have another look before revising anything.
Rog Wilko on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to pec: As I pointed out in an earlier post the good climbing on Yardstick is only a very small proportion of the route. I'd say there are half a dozen better VSs on Wild Cat, several more at Willersley, and no-one's mentioned Skylight. Then there's Ravensdale. I'd rate Yardstick below Medusa and even below Delusor and Ploy. Then there's Snakes Alive which I don't think is mentioned - a cracking three star route, but rather neglected.
allysingo - on 20 Nov 2010
In reply to pec:
I understand your comments about Flake Crack but disagree that old red sandstone is a poor substitute for grit, it has a quality of its own I think, making the climbing a little more unnerving. I was a Helsby skeptic for a long time, believing the rock to be very green and friable but Flake Crack demonstrates just how good it can be, a memorable route which certainly sits comfortably with some of the more memorable VS routes on grit and at 18m is comparable.
pec on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko:
> (In reply to pec) As I pointed out in an earlier post the good climbing on Yardstick is only a very small proportion of the route. I'd say there are half a dozen better VSs on Wild Cat, several more at Willersley, and no-one's mentioned Skylight. Then there's Ravensdale. I'd rate Yardstick below Medusa and even below Delusor and Ploy. Then there's Snakes Alive which I don't think is mentioned - a cracking three star route, but rather neglected.>

I don't disagree with you entirely. I think all the VS's at Wild Cat are great but Yardstick seems to be considered the classic. It probably has the best bit of climbing on it of any of the VS's and that bit is also in a superb position. The "short lived" problem seems less so if its done in one pitch. It also gets very favourable reviews on the ukc routes thing.

I find the polish at Stoney detracts from the climbing too much for anything there to be included. Pot Hole Wall at Willersley is a classic but its so long ago I can't honestly compare it. There are also access issues at the crag.
I reclimbed Medusa this year at Ravensdale, again in one pitch and whilst it was very good I had no recollection of having already done it before (which I definitely have) whereas I clearly rember my ascents of Yardstick. Also, though more sustained, Medusa never quite gets as good as the best bits of Yardstick and the rock isn't as good either.

I'm afraid I haven't done Skylght on High Tor or Snakes Alive which look like they could be contenders. I'll have to put them on my to do list for next year.
Another superb route is Central Wall at Beeston, fantastic pocket pulling of a sort we don't have enough of in the UK but the "jungle" approach may count against it!
I wouldn't be against any of the above replacing Yardstick (though it still gets my vote) however I definitely think Peak limestone should have at least one representative.
The Ivanator - on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko: From all I can ascertain the Peak Limestone choice looks a fairly even call between Golden Yardstick, Skylight, Snakes Alive or Cataclysm (if this route is VS these days) ...certainly all these routes appear to have their fans and detractors, but overall all come out quite highly rated in the UKC (and Rockfax) route voting.
I don't know if there is a compelling case to change the Peak selection, I think Proud Corner needs to find a way back in somehow though.
pec on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to allysingo:
> (In reply to pec)
> I understand your comments about Flake Crack but disagree that old red sandstone is a poor substitute for grit, it has a quality of its own I think, making the climbing a little more unnerving. I was a Helsby skeptic for a long time, believing the rock to be very green and friable but Flake Crack demonstrates just how good it can be, a memorable route which certainly sits comfortably with some of the more memorable VS routes on grit and at 18m is comparable.>

Unfortunately the quality is rather too much like climbing on ball bearings for my liking!
Its less of a problem on Flake Crack than other routes I admit, but the lower part is a bit sandy before you get to the crack and my guide only gives it as 12m.
It just doesn't seem like the sort of route you'd drive far out of your way to do.

Kipper - on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I liked Golden Yardstick; but if you don't want it, what about Ten Craters of Wisdom?

The Ivanator - on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to Kipper:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> I liked Golden Yardstick; but if you don't want it, what about Ten Craters of Wisdom?

This looks a good alternative selection, another that looks possible is Pothole Wall at Willersley. Any thoughts on the Peak Limestone selection welcome.
Hannah Appleton - on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to RossJ:
> A few suprising suggestions here Hannah. Puffin Attack is a nice wee route but that's all. You might at a push squeeze a Cummingston VS into the top 80 in Scotland, but have to disagree on the UK side.

Aye maybe being a bit biased! I guess I just had a great day climbing at Latheronwheel - was pishing it down everywhere alse and we had one dry weather pocket!

Probably am pushing it with Cummingston, but felt that Scotland was under-represented...

Hannah
ads.ukclimbing.com
EarlyBird - on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

"Any thoughts on the Peak Limestone selection welcome."

Pot Hole Wall is very good... as is Garotter at the same Crag - and there is something uniquely Derbyshire about Willersley that adds to the experience.

I've done Cataclysm a couple of times in the last three years and while it might once have been VS it is now very definitely HVS. I think Derek's Dilemma at Wild Cat is a three star route and worthy of consideration but I might be in the minority.
EarlyBird - on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to EarlyBird:

...I should add, Derek's Dilemma is a three star route as far as I'm concerned - it gets one star in the guides.
Dave Garnett - on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to EarlyBird:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
>
> "Any thoughts on the Peak Limestone selection welcome."
>
> Pot Hole Wall is very good... as is Garotter at the same Crag - and there is something uniquely Derbyshire about Willersley that adds to the experience.

Yes, but it doesn't match up to Dovedale! Snakes Alive and (especially) Ten Craters are both excellent.

Golden Yardstick does have the combination of an intimidating (at the grade) but safe crux followed by an increasingly airy and improbable arete. It's a shame the first pitch isn't better, I agree. Perhaps Al was climbing about 6 grades harder than VS at the time, which is why it didn't make more of an impression!
Rog Wilko on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Seems I've opened (or re-opened) a can of worms here. I agree about Derek's Dilemma (aka Coyote Crack) being a classic, but it is polished and rather a sandbag at VS. As I wrote earlier, my favourite route at Wildcat is Tiger Route 1, which is very varied, very long, very sustained, superbly positioned, and grossly under-rated. One I forgot to mention, which is probably my favourite for the Peak representative, is Guts Ache Groove (Willersley).
Kipper - on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to EarlyBird:
>
> ... something uniquely Derbyshire about Willersley that adds to the experience.

Gloomy and quite hard :-)

Pothole Wall is good (a bit spoilt at the top), as are the others mentioned at Willersley.

I like the idea of Tiger Route as well.
The Ivanator - on 21 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I'm thinking Proud Corner for Flake Crack and Ten Craters for Golden Yardstick. Awaiting thoughts on Green Light at Gogarth which may complete the list.
Please contribute your appreciations, memories, route descriptions (without outrageous beta) on the "What is SO good about the UK's best VS climbs" thread: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=433899
victim of mathematics - on 22 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
Flake Crack is ace and I've heard more people say that Ten Craters is a bit underwhelming than say it's amazing, although I've not done it...
Offwidth - on 22 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: Lighthouse Arete is a VD with a juggy crux that might even be S 4b on grit; its given VS to calm those sampling Gogarth for the first time. Rap and Pel are proper VS climbs but not good enough for the list IMHO.
GrahamD - on 22 Nov 2010
In reply to Offwidth:
> Rap and Pel are proper VS climbs but not good enough for the list IMHO.

Even in the Classic Rock / Hard Rock idiom ?

Rog Wilko on 22 Nov 2010
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to The Ivanator) Lighthouse Arete is a VD with a juggy crux

Agreed, though I think you overstate your case a little. Severe, not V Diff.
Budge - on 22 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

I'm another who doesn't rate Golden Yardstick, I could never understand it's popularity it's one star at the most. On the same crag Derek's Dilemma and Cataclysm are the stand out VS's

Snake's Alive is great with the setting and wading the river to get to it as well as finishing on a summit, but my vote would have to go for Pothole Wall. Unfortunately I have never done Ten Craters
Offwidth - on 23 Nov 2010
In reply to Rog Wilko:

Sorry I intended to say mostly VD climbing with a crux that in isolation might get S 4b on some crags.
Al Evans on 23 Nov 2010
In reply to Offwidth: As regards classic VS's on Peak limestone the choice used to be much wider until they all got pinched by the HVS and E1 grades :-)
GrahamD - on 23 Nov 2010
In reply to Budge:

Well put me down for Golden Yardstick. The others are just bog standard groove lines whereas Golden Yardstick has something different. Pot Hole wall is worth a shout as well.
Al Evans on 23 Nov 2010
In reply to GrahamD: As a bog standard groove line, has nobody mentioned 'Sin' at Stoney Middleton? When I did that first time I thought it was the best route I had ever done and the exposure is awesome, surely that hasn't changed?
hakahoff - on 25 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: butterfly ,fly wall wintours leap wye valley , first pitch easy , then rock over off the pinnacle on to your right leg and reach for the pinch , nice
pec on 25 Nov 2010
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to GrahamD) As a bog standard groove line, has nobody mentioned 'Sin' at Stoney Middleton? When I did that first time I thought it was the best route I had ever done and the exposure is awesome, surely that hasn't changed?
>
It probably wasn't as polished as glass then though!
Most routes at Stoney are like ice climbing in rock shoes now.
MelH - on 25 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:

Spartan Slab (Etive Slabs)
Resurrection (Polldubh)
Lucky Strike (Pass of Ballater)
The Ivanator - on 25 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
I've had another thought regarding the Wye Valley selection, Questor (Wyndcliffe) is currently in the list and Freedom, Nibelheim, Butterfly and some at Shorn Cliff have all had mentions but would the Angel's Girdle actually be the best choice of all?
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=44005
I've not climbed the route although I have done Left Hand Route and Joe's Route which provide the first and last pitches (and these are two good pitches in their own right).
Anyone got any opinions on this route?
Gordon Stainforth - on 25 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to The Ivanator)
> I've had another thought regarding the Wye Valley selection, Questor (Wyndcliffe) is currently in the list and Freedom, Nibelheim, Butterfly and some at Shorn Cliff have all had mentions but would the Angel's Girdle actually be the best choice of all?

Well, the position will be terrific (based on my memory of Angel's Eye) but surely it will bear no comparison with something like the Chee Tor Girdle, which I'm sure hasn't been included. Sad indeed that aesthetic grotsville on the Welsh border, figure-headed by e.g; Questor, should take precedence over much greater routes like Sin, that Al has mentioned but have been embarrassingly overlooked up to now, I think.

sjminfife - on 25 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator: I still think that Peak limestone could do with a bit more representation so what about Gabriel/Pearly Gates at Stoney Middleton.It cann't be any more polished than when I did it 20 years ago.
OK it's not scenic but Stoney's historical context as a forcing ground shouldn't be ignored.
sjm
The Ivanator - on 25 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Chee Tor girdle is in the list, I certainly want to keep Wye Valley to a single selection, and although VS is not the strongest suit of the Wye crags I think "aesthetic grotsville" is rather harsh. When I think of the view over Tintern Abbey from on top of The Laughing Cavaliers http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=32493
Or views over the river from the great ledge on North Wall
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=66830
I am not thinking "grotsville" but perhaps I am more easily pleased! :-)
So would you think the Angel's Girdle a worthier selection than Questor?
Gordon Stainforth - on 25 Nov 2010
In reply to The Ivanator:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
> Chee Tor girdle is in the list, I certainly want to keep Wye Valley to a single selection, and although VS is not the strongest suit of the Wye crags I think "aesthetic grotsville" is rather harsh.

Well I was being deliberately a bit harsh ...

>When I think of the view over Tintern Abbey from on top of The Laughing Cavaliers http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=32493
> Or views over the river from the great ledge on North Wall
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=66830
> I am not thinking "grotsville" but perhaps I am more easily pleased! :-)

Yes, wonderfully aesthetic positions. Much the same can be said of most of the Symond's Yat routes.

> So would you think the Angel's Girdle a worthier selection than Questor?

No, as I said, I haven't done it, so suspect you will be stuck with the rather wood-shrouded pitch of Questor. I remember the climbing on Questor being good (I think I did it at least twice), that's all; whereas, e.g with Osiris, I can still remember it's fabulous position and exposure.
The Ivanator - on 26 Nov 2010
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: I'll wait for a second opinion on Angel's Girdle, but I think it may well be a better option than Questor. Pitch 2 of Joe's Route (which is the final pitch of Angel's) is a really good 4c pitch, Joe's is let down by a dirty and scrappy 4a first pitch.
Of course if Laughing Cavaliers were downgraded (as it should be) then that would be the answer, sustained VS climbing with great moves and good pro all the way.
johnkeith on 08 Dec 2010
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to GrahamD) As a bog standard groove line, has nobody mentioned 'Sin' at Stoney Middleton? When I did that first time I thought it was the best route I had ever done and the exposure is awesome, surely that hasn't changed?

I thought Aurora at Stoney was excellent when I did it 30 years ago - but it might have been polished away to nothing since then!

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.