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Having just read 'the hard years' I'd really like to do a Joe Brown route on my trip to North Wales next month. The only problem is I only lead V.Diff/Severe- is there any hope...or am I being a bafoon for thinking there are Brown routes at this grade?
In reply to Lizard:
Try any of the Colin Kirkus routes; pre Brown & Whillans and their hero.
His routes are excellent and well ahead of its time. Even now, with modern equipment, they are not to be underestimated.
U can google 'colin kirkus' for more info.
Take care.
Try any of the Colin Kirkus routes; pre Brown & Whillans and their hero.
His routes are excellent and well ahead of its time. Even now, with modern equipment, they are not to be underestimated.
U can google 'colin kirkus' for more info.
Take care.
In reply to chris tan: certainly good routes but hat doesn't help the man when he wants to do a Joe Brown route...!
The easiest probably HVS? Maybe there are some VS Joe Brown routes out there? Ring the man via his shop...he'll probably be glad to help....
The easiest probably HVS? Maybe there are some VS Joe Brown routes out there? Ring the man via his shop...he'll probably be glad to help....
In reply to Lizard:
I can only think of one JB new route at Severe, and that's not in North Wales. If I could remember its name it would make quite a good trivia question - anyone?
I don't think there's one easier than VS in North Wales.
I can only think of one JB new route at Severe, and that's not in North Wales. If I could remember its name it would make quite a good trivia question - anyone?
I don't think there's one easier than VS in North Wales.
In reply to Ian Hill:
Several VSs in NW. Cobweb Crack and Noah's Warning for a start.
Small warning of my own to original poster - don't bother trying Opening Gambit (JB VS in the slate quarries which might be tempting if using old guidebook). First, people used to die on it even before it fell down, secondly, it's now fallen down.
Several VSs in NW. Cobweb Crack and Noah's Warning for a start.
Small warning of my own to original poster - don't bother trying Opening Gambit (JB VS in the slate quarries which might be tempting if using old guidebook). First, people used to die on it even before it fell down, secondly, it's now fallen down.
In reply to chris tan: trouble is JME and CK and Longland got there first and didn't leave much at VS or below to mop up...
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Lethargic Arete (Burbage South)
Slab Recess Direct HS (Froggatt)
Janker's Crack HS (Froggatt)
and then there's
Ribbed Corner (Mod!) at Burbage S.
> If I could remember its name it would make quite a good trivia question - anyone?
Lethargic Arete (Burbage South)
Slab Recess Direct HS (Froggatt)
Janker's Crack HS (Froggatt)
and then there's
Ribbed Corner (Mod!) at Burbage S.
In reply to StuT: not very convenient for N Wales though...
In reply to Lizard:
Even if you can find one it wont be one of his classics. I'd say 99% of Joe Browns routes were between VS and E2 (where I climb, luckily), and definately all of his classics. Unfortunately they are all bastard hard. respect is due to Mr Brown.
Even if you can find one it wont be one of his classics. I'd say 99% of Joe Browns routes were between VS and E2 (where I climb, luckily), and definately all of his classics. Unfortunately they are all bastard hard. respect is due to Mr Brown.
In reply to Lizard:
I tink ther are a few VS 4b's in the Pass - is Yellow somthing on Craig Ddu not a JB/DW route?
How aboot Whillans routes - what's the easiest?
I tink ther are a few VS 4b's in the Pass - is Yellow somthing on Craig Ddu not a JB/DW route?
How aboot Whillans routes - what's the easiest?
In reply to Roberto:
Total respect- oh well, there will always be the dream. Just makes it worse to think about how he did all those classics 50 years ago...and when it was pissing down with rain. The guy is clearly without fear. Colin Kirkus sounds like the don though.
Total respect- oh well, there will always be the dream. Just makes it worse to think about how he did all those classics 50 years ago...and when it was pissing down with rain. The guy is clearly without fear. Colin Kirkus sounds like the don though.
In reply to clams_cant_sing:
The File (Higgar Tor) VS 4c
Crescent (Stanage) VS 5a
The Bulger VS 4b at the Roaches is down as both Brown and Whillans.
The File (Higgar Tor) VS 4c
Crescent (Stanage) VS 5a
The Bulger VS 4b at the Roaches is down as both Brown and Whillans.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Also:
Vauk Corner S at Burbage South (looks dirty and desperate and sadly its near the top of my 'routes to do next' list)
Angluar Crack HS at Curbar (hard and often wet)
Also:
Vauk Corner S at Burbage South (looks dirty and desperate and sadly its near the top of my 'routes to do next' list)
Angluar Crack HS at Curbar (hard and often wet)
In reply to GFoz: And Striptease?
In reply to Lizard:
Most of Kirkus's best routes are VS or HVS, however there are some good VD/S around - Pinnacle Wall, Kirkus's Route Meolwyns and lots on Glyder Fach because he wrote the guide book.
Most of Kirkus's best routes are VS or HVS, however there are some good VD/S around - Pinnacle Wall, Kirkus's Route Meolwyns and lots on Glyder Fach because he wrote the guide book.
In reply to GFoz:
There are loads of VS and HVS lines the trick is to find the sub VS lines...how about sub VS for the Villain?
There are loads of VS and HVS lines the trick is to find the sub VS lines...how about sub VS for the Villain?
In reply to O. C. Curmudgeon: any idea what kirkus route on cwm silyns like,
climbed ordinary route with gf the other day, outside edge and that route looked amazing, whats the pro like on it though,
climbed ordinary route with gf the other day, outside edge and that route looked amazing, whats the pro like on it though,
In reply to Iain Ridgway:
Don't know but it does look superb, I'm very tempted by it (even though I've never done a multi pitch VS).
Don't know but it does look superb, I'm very tempted by it (even though I've never done a multi pitch VS).
In reply to Iain Ridgway:
I've not done it yet.
Also there are some scattered Kirkus VDiffs in Cornwall.
> (In reply to O. C. Curmudgeon) any idea what kirkus route on cwm silyns like,
>
>
I've not done it yet.
Also there are some scattered Kirkus VDiffs in Cornwall.
In reply to Iain Ridgway:
Kirkus' Route on the Great Slab at Cwm Silyn is one of the best mountain VS's in N. Wales. Almost as good as Mur Y Niwl on Craig yr Ysfa. It'll be getting three stars in the next guide. The direct line just right is also good but a little harder (HVS).
The pro is reasonable, not every metre or so but you are not running it out either.
Bob
Kirkus' Route on the Great Slab at Cwm Silyn is one of the best mountain VS's in N. Wales. Almost as good as Mur Y Niwl on Craig yr Ysfa. It'll be getting three stars in the next guide. The direct line just right is also good but a little harder (HVS).
The pro is reasonable, not every metre or so but you are not running it out either.
Bob
In reply to Lizard:
Now, this is neither quite Severe nor by Joe Brown. However, a stunning route by a total master and at a more modest HS, is... Creagh Dhu Wall at Tremadog.
A real classic by John Cunningham of the Scottish Creagh Dhu climbers club (operating in the same era as Brown and Whillans). He's probably mentioned in The Hard Years.
In some ways the route feels hard because of the traverses and and the exposure at points, but the climbing is never really hard (apart from the very top, hint: take the left hand variation). And is very well protected (again, provided you take the left variant at the top).
I believe Cunnigham did not give glowing reports of the route but history has proven otherwise.
Now, this is neither quite Severe nor by Joe Brown. However, a stunning route by a total master and at a more modest HS, is... Creagh Dhu Wall at Tremadog.
A real classic by John Cunningham of the Scottish Creagh Dhu climbers club (operating in the same era as Brown and Whillans). He's probably mentioned in The Hard Years.
In some ways the route feels hard because of the traverses and and the exposure at points, but the climbing is never really hard (apart from the very top, hint: take the left hand variation). And is very well protected (again, provided you take the left variant at the top).
I believe Cunnigham did not give glowing reports of the route but history has proven otherwise.
In reply to Simon Caldwell:
The File is a Whillans route. Brown did the FA of The Rasp on the same crags.
JAMIE B>
The File is a Whillans route. Brown did the FA of The Rasp on the same crags.
JAMIE B>
In reply to Jamie B.: But his name gets included on the first ascent details presumably as a second, as custom dictates.
In reply to Lizard: How about WRINKLE is that not a brown route ?? if not well worth doing if your in the pass
In reply to Bob:
Almost any VS is better than MyN, what an utter, over hyped pile of toss that is.
> Almost as good as Mur Y Niwl on Craig yr Ysfa
Almost any VS is better than MyN, what an utter, over hyped pile of toss that is.
In reply to Lizard:
Yellow groove on Craig Ddu in the pass. Pretty sure this was done by him, and its a mild(ish) VS.
Yellow groove on Craig Ddu in the pass. Pretty sure this was done by him, and its a mild(ish) VS.
In reply to stone donkey: No, M.P. Ward
In reply to Jamie B.:
Isn't that what I said?
> (In reply to Simon Caldwell)
>
> The File is a Whillans route.
>
> The File is a Whillans route.
Isn't that what I said?
In reply to Mike Whittaker:
Strange isn't it? I thought that MyN was great. As for Kirkus' Route, it stands comparisom with just about any mountain crag VS that I have done with the possible exception of Eliminate A. (But then I am from the Lakes). If you haven't done it....WHY NOT????
Bob
Strange isn't it? I thought that MyN was great. As for Kirkus' Route, it stands comparisom with just about any mountain crag VS that I have done with the possible exception of Eliminate A. (But then I am from the Lakes). If you haven't done it....WHY NOT????
Bob
In reply to Bob:
Yes have done Kirkus' Route, it was an early VS lead, I found it pretty stiff, and it made a lasting impression on me, then I soloed Outside Edge and that too is very memorable.
And I think it is much better than Eliminate A. But then it depends when you climb them, I find it hard to be objective between routes you piss when you climb harder, and routes you struggle on when you are barely up to them.
Still, MyN IS pants!
Yes have done Kirkus' Route, it was an early VS lead, I found it pretty stiff, and it made a lasting impression on me, then I soloed Outside Edge and that too is very memorable.
And I think it is much better than Eliminate A. But then it depends when you climb them, I find it hard to be objective between routes you piss when you climb harder, and routes you struggle on when you are barely up to them.
Still, MyN IS pants!
In reply to Lizard:
Joe Brown routes easier than VS.Two JB 'severes' for you.'Grass' and 'the Wing' both HS on Gist Ddu,Mid Wales.'The Wing' even gets a star in the latest guide.
Joe Brown routes easier than VS.Two JB 'severes' for you.'Grass' and 'the Wing' both HS on Gist Ddu,Mid Wales.'The Wing' even gets a star in the latest guide.
In reply to Lizard:
One of the easiest JB routes that I can think of is Lavaredo Wall on a crag up behind Betws Carreg Achtran(sp)I think it's called . Brilliant route, very steep for the grade but very safe as I recall
One of the easiest JB routes that I can think of is Lavaredo Wall on a crag up behind Betws Carreg Achtran(sp)I think it's called . Brilliant route, very steep for the grade but very safe as I recall
In reply to Phaedrus:
That's not a JB route I'm afraid.It's a Ron james route on Carreg Alltrem.
> (In reply to Lizard)
> One of the easiest JB routes that I can think of is Lavaredo Wall on a crag up behind Betws Carreg Achtran(sp)I think it's called . Brilliant route, very steep for the grade but very safe as I recall
> One of the easiest JB routes that I can think of is Lavaredo Wall on a crag up behind Betws Carreg Achtran(sp)I think it's called . Brilliant route, very steep for the grade but very safe as I recall
That's not a JB route I'm afraid.It's a Ron james route on Carreg Alltrem.
In reply to Mike Whittaker:
Sometimes I despair at some of your comments. You knock MyN, most people find it great and then you go on about soloing routes at a high standard and cannot remember the good from the bad.
Sometimes I want to put a warning not to take any notice of your comments, they are your opinions not statements of fact. Please state that instead of saying route X is crap.
Sometimes I despair at some of your comments. You knock MyN, most people find it great and then you go on about soloing routes at a high standard and cannot remember the good from the bad.
Sometimes I want to put a warning not to take any notice of your comments, they are your opinions not statements of fact. Please state that instead of saying route X is crap.
In reply to Bob:
Kirkus Route on cwm Silyn seemed to me to be so similar to Rib and Slab on Pillar, and Outside edge is the complementary route to New West on Pillar as well. Peculiar how such similar routes can be on two mountains so far apart.
I enjoyed all of them as you say they are not overly protected but neither are they unprotected for the steady HS/VS leader. Recommended in my book.
Kirkus Route on cwm Silyn seemed to me to be so similar to Rib and Slab on Pillar, and Outside edge is the complementary route to New West on Pillar as well. Peculiar how such similar routes can be on two mountains so far apart.
I enjoyed all of them as you say they are not overly protected but neither are they unprotected for the steady HS/VS leader. Recommended in my book.
In reply to sutty:
Of course they are my opinions, goes without saying doesn't it. How can route quality be fact?
soloing: I said I soloed the Vdiff, high standard?
good from bad: I didn't say I couldn't remember, I remember routes very well, I said "I find it hard to be objective" - between routes that I find easy and those I don't, depending on when in your climbing career you climb them.
Of course they are my opinions, goes without saying doesn't it. How can route quality be fact?
soloing: I said I soloed the Vdiff, high standard?
good from bad: I didn't say I couldn't remember, I remember routes very well, I said "I find it hard to be objective" - between routes that I find easy and those I don't, depending on when in your climbing career you climb them.
In reply to sutty: I think i understand what hes saying about hard to be objective about some of the routes, if you are climbing extremes, i think people struggle to tell the difference diff/ vdiff etc, certainly when you climb on some of the grit edges, Vdiffs named by climbers well above that standard can easily be agrade either way, some of the oness on birchens are a bit dodgy,
anyway back to my roiginal point, watching two guys on KR Cwm silyn, looks superb, cant wait to have a go,
anyway back to my roiginal point, watching two guys on KR Cwm silyn, looks superb, cant wait to have a go,
In reply to sutty:
What's so good about MyN anyhow?
Has it a striking line? No
Does it have interesting climbing, bit in the middle maybe.
Does it cross amazing terrain at a suprisingly ammenable level? No
Does it have great views, and unrivaled exposure? No
Does the top half have a load of cruddy ledges, that really let it down? Yes.
Does it annoyingly miss the main direct challenge of the excellent looking groove to the left? Yes
There is a much overlooked E1 to the right 'Agrippa'. This passes much more of the above. This is a fine route, just so that you realise I'm not slagging Craig y Ysfa itself.
And one day I'll get round to doing Aura, now that looks special.
What's so good about MyN anyhow?
Has it a striking line? No
Does it have interesting climbing, bit in the middle maybe.
Does it cross amazing terrain at a suprisingly ammenable level? No
Does it have great views, and unrivaled exposure? No
Does the top half have a load of cruddy ledges, that really let it down? Yes.
Does it annoyingly miss the main direct challenge of the excellent looking groove to the left? Yes
There is a much overlooked E1 to the right 'Agrippa'. This passes much more of the above. This is a fine route, just so that you realise I'm not slagging Craig y Ysfa itself.
And one day I'll get round to doing Aura, now that looks special.
In reply to Simon Roberts:
yes- Yellow groove on Craig Ddu is a brown route..but it's VS....and also by D.whillans....sounds scary.
yes- Yellow groove on Craig Ddu is a brown route..but it's VS....and also by D.whillans....sounds scary.
In reply to Mike Whittaker:
Mike, I also find it hard to know how to take your posts sometimes. They are, shall we say, blunt. As Sutty said, very will I think, you put forward your opinion as if it were certain fact.
Some of us can take this in our stride, or at least bite our tongues - I almost posted something similar to Sutty straight off. However, I suspect that some of the posters who are less than sure of themselves or who are lurkers/unregistered will find your postings very off-putting.
I often disagree with your assessment of routes (at my level) and find your attitude to them strange. Your last posting here suggests that you are more inclined to the hard routes (which take the direct challenge, which many will want to avoid!) than the easier routes (and the type of climbing this often entails) and perhaps you should remember that when commenting. Your's is not an "average" view of climbing, IMO of course However, this in itself would not be a problem if you were not so certain about
being right!
Not so long ago I started a thread asking for good VS/HVS routes at Tremadog. Partly for some real help and partly to "chat" about Trem,, as you do. I then came back on the thread after a weekend at Trem to "report" and say thanks for suggestions. I think the first response I got was one from you commenting on how few routes we'd climbed. We'd had only an afternoon (due to travel and rain) and did Y'Broga and Micah Eliminate if I recall. With a relative beginner with me, I thought we'd done alright but your typically damning comment is something I still haven't forgotten.
Sorry, (mild) rant over.
Mike, I also find it hard to know how to take your posts sometimes. They are, shall we say, blunt. As Sutty said, very will I think, you put forward your opinion as if it were certain fact.
Some of us can take this in our stride, or at least bite our tongues - I almost posted something similar to Sutty straight off. However, I suspect that some of the posters who are less than sure of themselves or who are lurkers/unregistered will find your postings very off-putting.
I often disagree with your assessment of routes (at my level) and find your attitude to them strange. Your last posting here suggests that you are more inclined to the hard routes (which take the direct challenge, which many will want to avoid!) than the easier routes (and the type of climbing this often entails) and perhaps you should remember that when commenting. Your's is not an "average" view of climbing, IMO of course However, this in itself would not be a problem if you were not so certain about
being right!
Not so long ago I started a thread asking for good VS/HVS routes at Tremadog. Partly for some real help and partly to "chat" about Trem,, as you do. I then came back on the thread after a weekend at Trem to "report" and say thanks for suggestions. I think the first response I got was one from you commenting on how few routes we'd climbed. We'd had only an afternoon (due to travel and rain) and did Y'Broga and Micah Eliminate if I recall. With a relative beginner with me, I thought we'd done alright but your typically damning comment is something I still haven't forgotten.
Sorry, (mild) rant over.
In reply to JonC:
Take it all with a pinch of salt, you have to, this is the internet, I know bugger all about you, you know bugger all about me.
How my comments can come across as fact I don't know.
As I said earlier, how can a route's quality be a fact, it can only be opinion. And I think I've qualified my opinions suitably.
However they are my opinions, I rarely knowingly sandbag or mislead, they are my thoughts and findings about a sport I am or at least have been very passionate about. This is all emotive stuff, you pour your soul into these routes, I realise. I'm not much of the 'pat on the back kind of guy' I'm afraid, don't you get that anyway when you top out?
I can't be arsed to type a load of IMHO, , FWIW, get out clauses all the time, yes blunt, sorry that's me.
But sorry for the piss take on Tremadog trip, I wasn't expecting you'd gone all that way for a half day. And I did give some recommendations. If it makes you feel any better, I went to Stanage the other week and couldn't be arsed to climb anything at all!
Take it all with a pinch of salt, you have to, this is the internet, I know bugger all about you, you know bugger all about me.
How my comments can come across as fact I don't know.
As I said earlier, how can a route's quality be a fact, it can only be opinion. And I think I've qualified my opinions suitably.
However they are my opinions, I rarely knowingly sandbag or mislead, they are my thoughts and findings about a sport I am or at least have been very passionate about. This is all emotive stuff, you pour your soul into these routes, I realise. I'm not much of the 'pat on the back kind of guy' I'm afraid, don't you get that anyway when you top out?
I can't be arsed to type a load of IMHO, , FWIW, get out clauses all the time, yes blunt, sorry that's me.
But sorry for the piss take on Tremadog trip, I wasn't expecting you'd gone all that way for a half day. And I did give some recommendations. If it makes you feel any better, I went to Stanage the other week and couldn't be arsed to climb anything at all!
In reply to Mike Whittaker:
Hey ho, no offence taken. Just wondered if you actually knew how you came across sometimes. It's a public forum; to my mind it does matter how one comes across.
No, I don't need a virtual pat on the back about "routes I have done". I thought it was kind of polite to show that I hadn't wasted everyone's time (as I suspect sometimes happens) and that we had in fact gone to Trem etc. I was in fact very disappointed not to get a lot more done but we were rained off on Sunday. All the same, we took a lot of pleasure from fitting in what we did. And I now have a lot of ideas for future trips. That's what RT is good at. Sharing info/knowledge.
Mike, I go climbing virtually every weekend (mostly for the weekend as opposed to a day-trip to the Peak). I have great fun and, yes, am mildly obsessive about climbing (whilst being depressingly average at it). I come on RT to exchange views/chat about something I too am passionate about. I just wonder sometimes why people are so argumentative on here (and I'm not pointing a finger at you now). Can't say I'm always sweetness and light myself but I would hope that I'm not too antagonistic. Feel free to tell me if I am, Sutty's normally happy to have a go at me
Stanage - hate the place. Don't blame you for not doing anything
Hey ho, no offence taken. Just wondered if you actually knew how you came across sometimes. It's a public forum; to my mind it does matter how one comes across.
No, I don't need a virtual pat on the back about "routes I have done". I thought it was kind of polite to show that I hadn't wasted everyone's time (as I suspect sometimes happens) and that we had in fact gone to Trem etc. I was in fact very disappointed not to get a lot more done but we were rained off on Sunday. All the same, we took a lot of pleasure from fitting in what we did. And I now have a lot of ideas for future trips. That's what RT is good at. Sharing info/knowledge.
Mike, I go climbing virtually every weekend (mostly for the weekend as opposed to a day-trip to the Peak). I have great fun and, yes, am mildly obsessive about climbing (whilst being depressingly average at it). I come on RT to exchange views/chat about something I too am passionate about. I just wonder sometimes why people are so argumentative on here (and I'm not pointing a finger at you now). Can't say I'm always sweetness and light myself but I would hope that I'm not too antagonistic. Feel free to tell me if I am, Sutty's normally happy to have a go at me
Stanage - hate the place. Don't blame you for not doing anything
In reply to Mike Whittaker:
Not done Aura myself so will have to return.
Bob
> (In reply to sutty)
>
>
> What's so good about MyN anyhow?
>
> Has it a striking line? No
Probably agree with this, but it takes the easiest line up a stunning wall.
>
>
> What's so good about MyN anyhow?
>
> Has it a striking line? No
> Does it have interesting climbing, bit in the middle maybe.
Quite a bit of good climbing I recall.
> Does it cross amazing terrain at a suprisingly ammenable level? No
What!!!????!!!! Are you sure that you were on the right crag>
> Does it have great views, and unrivaled exposure? No
Come on Mike, now you are just into cloud cuckoo land.
> Does the top half have a load of cruddy ledges, that really let it down? Yes.
To be honest I can't remember these (if they are as you say) then again it was 1981 when I did it.
> Does it annoyingly miss the main direct challenge of the excellent looking groove to the left? Yes
Not the point.
>
> There is a much overlooked E1 to the right 'Agrippa'. This passes much more of the above. This is a fine route, just so that you realise I'm not slagging Craig y Ysfa itself.
Did Agrippa the same day, HVS then, (violins play softly in the background) but not as good a MyN
> There is a much overlooked E1 to the right 'Agrippa'. This passes much more of the above. This is a fine route, just so that you realise I'm not slagging Craig y Ysfa itself.
>
> And one day I'll get round to doing Aura, now that looks special.
> And one day I'll get round to doing Aura, now that looks special.
Not done Aura myself so will have to return.
Bob
In reply to bobw:
Got to agree with Bob on this one, wild positions at a reasonable grade on what is a very steep wall. Agrippa is good but MyN is better. Aura, now that's another story, one of the best mild extreme mountain routes in Wales, a must for anyone's tick list (I'm surprised IAJ hasn't dragged you up there Bob!). The girdle's good value too. All quick drying and catching the sun, why's it not so popular? Could be due to its alternative local name of Craig y ToFar.
Got to agree with Bob on this one, wild positions at a reasonable grade on what is a very steep wall. Agrippa is good but MyN is better. Aura, now that's another story, one of the best mild extreme mountain routes in Wales, a must for anyone's tick list (I'm surprised IAJ hasn't dragged you up there Bob!). The girdle's good value too. All quick drying and catching the sun, why's it not so popular? Could be due to its alternative local name of Craig y ToFar.
In reply to bobw:
Well stunning apart from the bit with MyN!
>> Does it have interesting climbing, bit in the middle maybe.
>Quite a bit of good climbing I recall.
Well the 1st pitch is a none event, and the same goes for the ledgy stuff at the top. The main pitch to the exposed belay is pretty good in part, and the swing right (a lá Kiplings) on pitch 3 is quite nice too.
>> Does it cross amazing terrain at a suprisingly ammenable level? No
>What!!!????!!!! Are you sure that you were on the right crag
I may concede that it doesn't suffer too badly on this score.
>> Does it have great views, and unrivaled exposure? No
>Come on Mike, now you are just into cloud cuckoo land.
Decent exposure, for a couple of moves.
In retrospect the views are good of Amphitheatre Buttress, seem to recall watching climbers on there from a belay.
And there are views out to the flater lands over towards Craig Eigiau
I will reassess it visually next time I'm there, but I refuse to climb it again. I've done it twice, and the 2nd time was only to convince myself it really wasn't as bad as I remembered... it was.
The highlight of that second occasion was to witness the party after me being seconded by a very white haired & wizzened Trevor Jones, who put up the E2, Pinnaclisma on the upper wall in 1969.
> Has it a striking line? No
>Probably agree with this, but it takes the easiest line up a stunning wall.
Well stunning apart from the bit with MyN!
>> Does it have interesting climbing, bit in the middle maybe.
>Quite a bit of good climbing I recall.
Well the 1st pitch is a none event, and the same goes for the ledgy stuff at the top. The main pitch to the exposed belay is pretty good in part, and the swing right (a lá Kiplings) on pitch 3 is quite nice too.
>> Does it cross amazing terrain at a suprisingly ammenable level? No
>What!!!????!!!! Are you sure that you were on the right crag
I may concede that it doesn't suffer too badly on this score.
>> Does it have great views, and unrivaled exposure? No
>Come on Mike, now you are just into cloud cuckoo land.
Decent exposure, for a couple of moves.
In retrospect the views are good of Amphitheatre Buttress, seem to recall watching climbers on there from a belay.
And there are views out to the flater lands over towards Craig Eigiau
I will reassess it visually next time I'm there, but I refuse to climb it again. I've done it twice, and the 2nd time was only to convince myself it really wasn't as bad as I remembered... it was.
The highlight of that second occasion was to witness the party after me being seconded by a very white haired & wizzened Trevor Jones, who put up the E2, Pinnaclisma on the upper wall in 1969.
In reply to Dave Ferguson:
After Aura do the continuation of Pinicalisima on the upper tier - A good day out.
(That's me on the back of the Carneddau guide!)
After Aura do the continuation of Pinicalisima on the upper tier - A good day out.
(That's me on the back of the Carneddau guide!)
In reply to Bob:
Totally agree.I did Kirkus Route on the Great Slab for the first time last year and thought it was one of the best VS climbs I've ever done.Nearly 400' of consistantly absorbing climbing with great positions and a fantastic outlook.
When we went up there the great cirque of Cwm Silyn looked positively Alpine in the early spring sun.
Good to see its elevation to three stars in the next guide.Can't understand why it's never been a three star route anyway ?
> (In reply to Iain Ridgway)
>
> Kirkus' Route on the Great Slab at Cwm Silyn is one of the best mountain VS's in N. Wales. Almost as good as Mur Y Niwl on Craig yr Ysfa. It'll be getting three stars in the next guide. The direct line just right is also good but a little harder (HVS).
>
>
> Kirkus' Route on the Great Slab at Cwm Silyn is one of the best mountain VS's in N. Wales. Almost as good as Mur Y Niwl on Craig yr Ysfa. It'll be getting three stars in the next guide. The direct line just right is also good but a little harder (HVS).
>
Totally agree.I did Kirkus Route on the Great Slab for the first time last year and thought it was one of the best VS climbs I've ever done.Nearly 400' of consistantly absorbing climbing with great positions and a fantastic outlook.
When we went up there the great cirque of Cwm Silyn looked positively Alpine in the early spring sun.
Good to see its elevation to three stars in the next guide.Can't understand why it's never been a three star route anyway ?
In reply to Jonno:
It has not been a three star route in the guide, just by word of mouth. If it gets them in the book it will wreck it and get loads of pedallers on it. Leave it as it is, an excekkent route for the epicure.
It has not been a three star route in the guide, just by word of mouth. If it gets them in the book it will wreck it and get loads of pedallers on it. Leave it as it is, an excekkent route for the epicure.
In reply to Jonno:
I don't quite agree - it's very good, but not sure it's 3 stars. Very good climbing, v technical for VS, but all a bit samey in a limestone kind of way. I see from my log book that I did this and Kirkus's Great Slab on Cloggy on consecutive days in May 1969 (the Cloggy one first). The Cwm Silyn one gets just a short one-liner ('Technically interesting on excellent rock') whereas the Cloggy one gets 4 lines. And that's my memory too - can't remember much about CS, but Great Slab on Cloggy I can remember extremely vividly - a totally stupendous route (tho' Great/Bow is even better)
> (In reply to Bob)
> [...]
>
> Totally agree.I did Kirkus Route on the Great Slab for the first time last year and thought it was one of the best VS climbs I've ever done.Nearly 400' of consistantly absorbing climbing with great positions and a fantastic outlook.
> When we went up there the great cirque of Cwm Silyn looked positively Alpine in the early spring sun.
> Good to see its elevation to three stars in the next guide.Can't understand why it's never been a three star route anyway ?
> [...]
>
> Totally agree.I did Kirkus Route on the Great Slab for the first time last year and thought it was one of the best VS climbs I've ever done.Nearly 400' of consistantly absorbing climbing with great positions and a fantastic outlook.
> When we went up there the great cirque of Cwm Silyn looked positively Alpine in the early spring sun.
> Good to see its elevation to three stars in the next guide.Can't understand why it's never been a three star route anyway ?
I don't quite agree - it's very good, but not sure it's 3 stars. Very good climbing, v technical for VS, but all a bit samey in a limestone kind of way. I see from my log book that I did this and Kirkus's Great Slab on Cloggy on consecutive days in May 1969 (the Cloggy one first). The Cwm Silyn one gets just a short one-liner ('Technically interesting on excellent rock') whereas the Cloggy one gets 4 lines. And that's my memory too - can't remember much about CS, but Great Slab on Cloggy I can remember extremely vividly - a totally stupendous route (tho' Great/Bow is even better)
In reply to sutty:
Sutty, this is very odd! - comparing Outside Edge and New West. They're both about the same standard and both totally brilliant, but beyond that the similarity ends. OK, theyre both west facing! But NW is a complex, v varied, wandering line, mostly in a v deep groove, and then breaks out rightwards to a glorious finish. Outside Edge is all very slabby, with one awkward bulge. All in a superb position, v open and exposed, and then has a slightly anti-climatic finish trending left onto easy ground (followed by a lot of scrambling back R)
New West is superb all the way (quite serious feeling), with a superb finish more or less at the summit of Pillar Rock. OE, 3 stars; NW, 4 stars - surely one of the best routes of its standard south of Scotland?
Sutty, this is very odd! - comparing Outside Edge and New West. They're both about the same standard and both totally brilliant, but beyond that the similarity ends. OK, theyre both west facing! But NW is a complex, v varied, wandering line, mostly in a v deep groove, and then breaks out rightwards to a glorious finish. Outside Edge is all very slabby, with one awkward bulge. All in a superb position, v open and exposed, and then has a slightly anti-climatic finish trending left onto easy ground (followed by a lot of scrambling back R)
New West is superb all the way (quite serious feeling), with a superb finish more or less at the summit of Pillar Rock. OE, 3 stars; NW, 4 stars - surely one of the best routes of its standard south of Scotland?
In reply to sutty:
If I had my way there'd be no stars on anything in the guide but the committee have decreed that there will be stars. I have been stingy in handing them out though
Bob
If I had my way there'd be no stars on anything in the guide but the committee have decreed that there will be stars. I have been stingy in handing them out though
Bob
In reply to sutty:
Completely Agree, only spotted this after Gordons response.
Only been there the once.
> and Outside edge is the complementary route to New West on Pillar as well. Peculiar how such similar routes can be on two mountains so far apart.
Completely Agree, only spotted this after Gordons response.
Only been there the once.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Your description of OE seems a bit at odds to my recollection. I seem to remember trending left up ledges then into grooves meandering slightly then as you say trending left above the difficulties.
Does that not seem very similar to NW description?
I regret not doing much more on Pillar, only half a dozen routes in my life but the weather has often been the decider on where to go.
Your description of OE seems a bit at odds to my recollection. I seem to remember trending left up ledges then into grooves meandering slightly then as you say trending left above the difficulties.
Does that not seem very similar to NW description?
I regret not doing much more on Pillar, only half a dozen routes in my life but the weather has often been the decider on where to go.
In reply to sutty:
Your description of OE is v much as I remember it, all trending slightly left. But I don't remember that of NW at all. Yes, a bit left to start with, then higher up a very definite horizontal traverse to the left, but then just above that you come straight back to the right quite a lot further. Then head up R on an excellent slab to a final chimney crack to finish.
You're not thinking of Old West by any chance are you, which is actually rather similar in feel to Ordinary Route (Diff) on Great Slab, Cwm Silyn?
Your description of OE is v much as I remember it, all trending slightly left. But I don't remember that of NW at all. Yes, a bit left to start with, then higher up a very definite horizontal traverse to the left, but then just above that you come straight back to the right quite a lot further. Then head up R on an excellent slab to a final chimney crack to finish.
You're not thinking of Old West by any chance are you, which is actually rather similar in feel to Ordinary Route (Diff) on Great Slab, Cwm Silyn?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I think you are right Gordon, it was a long time ago and I do not have any guides to Wales to check the details in now.
I was mainly pointing out that both cliffs have very similar routes on, the slabs on the harder routes of Kirkus gleaming in the rain will stand out for a long time in my memory. An excellent route on a remote crag.
What other climbs have a doppleganger on another cliff?
I think you are right Gordon, it was a long time ago and I do not have any guides to Wales to check the details in now.
I was mainly pointing out that both cliffs have very similar routes on, the slabs on the harder routes of Kirkus gleaming in the rain will stand out for a long time in my memory. An excellent route on a remote crag.
What other climbs have a doppleganger on another cliff?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Stars the kiss of Death?
Fall Pipe, Crew Cut, Cornerstone Climb, Wood Lice Crack, V J Crack and probably hundreds more of good bad and ugly starred routes...all overrun by punters
Stars the kiss of Death?
Fall Pipe, Crew Cut, Cornerstone Climb, Wood Lice Crack, V J Crack and probably hundreds more of good bad and ugly starred routes...all overrun by punters
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