UKC

Our day out in Patterdale was going so well (27/11/10). The walk in was stunning, we crossed Striding Edge with clear views and sunshine and descended via Swirral Edge. When we stopped to remove crampons, we heard an awful bloodcurdling scream and the sound of a body falling a long way over rock and ice. We looked up to see the terrible sight of someone
falling from close to the cornice at the top of Helvelyn Head Wall onto the rocks below.

The time was just before 4pm and I dialled 999 and asked for Mountain Rescue whilst my husband started to make his way to what we thought would be a dead body - the climber's parter took about a while to climb down and get to her - the other 4 people in their group were seemingly unaware of the situation for sometime.

Fortunately, the 20 year old student was alive but ...was in a bit of a battered mess and had plaited her left leg around her right and appeared to have a fractured femur and a broken ankle.

The group we encountered (a group of 6 Uni students from London) were completely unprepared for a day out on the hill. No suitably experienced or qualified leader, no charged up mobile phones, no decent head torches,
unsuitable footwear, broken crampons hanging off their beltloops, unsuitable clothing, incorrectly fitting harnesses (that hadn't been put on properly anyway), no emergency shelter, etc,... etc. The fallen climber wasn't wearing crampons (although these might have peeled off her bendy boots and could have been further up the crag) and she wasn't roped up either - from what I gather she didn't have any winter experience. The conditions on Saturday in the Lakes didn't really lend themselves to gullies either - rock hard ice with powder snow wafting about on top)

Fortunately, we had a working mobile phone, group shelter, some basic First Aid knowledge and a GPS so were able to provide a grid reference and an elevation for Patterdale M.R. and the Heli. It took Patterdale M.R. and the RN Heli about two hours to get to the girl who was eventually winched off the... mountain.

Did the group (who were in absolute clip) learn any lessons? I'm not sure, they walked off and pretty much left one of their own behind with a sprained ankle who I took pity on and gave a walking pole to! I googled the club this morning and discovered they had someone winched of a mountain crag in Wales in February too!!!! Should this Uni club be shut down whilst they are taught some essential skills and drills?

Has anyone else encountered climbing clubs (good or bad)? Who is responsible for the safety of the students that are given minibusses and accomodation for expeditions and then let loose and allowed to go onto the mountain playground with crampons and axes?

I am all for people getting out, having an adventure and enjoying the hills but surely a climbing club should know better than this and cannot keep up with peeling its members off mountains for the Helicopters to collect. Should they be made to go on MLTs (or similar) and First Aid courses for basic knowledge and instruction?

What are your views? Should I write to the Uni concerned with a strongly penned letter or will they learn their lesson on this one?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:
Presuming this isnt a troll.
I think more consideration should be made into making it easier for students to acess cheap and quality teaching for winter skills for which there is currently a sufficent lack of and the current approach seems to be "go teach yourself" or pay lots of money.
I will take time to reply in full later but remember there was probably a time when you hadn't got the skills, gear and knowledge to conduct yourselves in the mountains. Im guessing someone taught you?
Ewan

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

In my time at Sheffield Hallam climbing club, I was impressed by the standards of safety and enjoyment. There was usually an SPA qualified instructor there (I know, separate debate though), and the club were always keen to get more people through SPA. However, a club has very transient members, so what may be a perfect club may three years later be a disaster of a club. The fact remains it is a very good way of getting out onto the rocks/hills for epople that would otherwise not get the chance. And hopefully those who have made good use of the club will want to put back their experince and knowledge in helping out new club memebers.

Absolutely I do agree with you. Rather than throwing money at expeds, how about getting subsidised courses made available for members..? I want to write to the Uni with a constructive approach - giving solutions, whilst addressing that there is a problem here - not just firing off a horrible hellfire letter which isn't going to help anyone.

Yes, I was fortunate that I had experienced friends who were happy to teach me and pass on knowledge. On the practical planning side of things I also had a fair amount of common sense and knew that you should plan for certain scenarios in such potentially harsh conditions: carry phones, first aid kits, shelters, etc...

I also paid to go on courses so that I felt confident I had a certian level of knowledge.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:
drop there president/committie members a bell see what their response is. Then gague if there basically completely incomptent or it was just a few fools who got a bit out of hand.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I really don't see what the fact that they were students has to do with any of this; you meet inexperienced people (and plonkers) on the hill from all walks of life. It just seems like you are looking for an axe to grind.

The fact that 'someone' in the club had an accident back in February means absolutely nothing. For all we know, it could be a large club with, say, 200 members. I imagine that if you took a sample of any 200 climbers then the chances of more than one of them having to be rescued over the course of a year would be small but not insignificant. Sounds pretty unlucky to me, so surely they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Did you feel safe knowing someone was there who had a qualification, not just for you but for other members who might need more assistance whilst starting out? Did it send a positive message to the members by encouraging people to undertake the SPA?

Climbing is a great sport and I want to encourage more people to take to the hills and crags. I have taken a few friends out and about and got them into the thrill of the great outdoors.

The students we encountered seemed pretty unprepared and I can only think that if one of them had known to make some sensible decisions and take emergency kit things might have been a bit better for the lass who fell.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:
"Group of 6 Uni students from London" is a bit of an open statement, do you know if this was an organised University trip? I'd suggest contacting the clubs president rather than the University, as if it isn't actually organised by the club it will cause them a lot of hassle.

In reply to Byronius Maximus: I don't have an axe to grind - I was a Uni climbing club member myself and yes, I've been followed about by clueless plonkers with a can of beer in a poly bag on the top of Tryfan.

My point is really - if someone is giving them the kit and the money and pointing them in the direction of the hills, do they have a duty of care to teach them to wear the right boots, check the weather, carry emergency kit? Should there be an instructor or someone suitable experienced with them?

Well, benefit of the doubt or not, does someone have to die?

In reply to Reach>Talent: Yes, it was organised trip - the students I spoke to were terrified the Uni would find out as they were told specifically not to have any incidents after their recent escapades.

They were provided with a minibus and the crampons and axes were from a kit pool.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

As a long-time member of a student club as a non-student I understand many of the issues that student clubs have. It is a fairly tricky environment to control and different unis approach things in different ways. The biggest problem is that most of your members are inexperienced, and often even the most experienced members have only been climbing/mountaineering for 3 years and even then may have not got out that much (fewer than 10 trips a year). Ostensibly, each student is an adult and should take responsibility for their own actions and not do anything they feel is beyond them. However, inexperience may well mean that they don't recognise the danger they are in until it is too late. At many Unis the trip leader is nominatively responsible for the decisions made on the trip, but the actual requirements (in terms of experience) are pretty woolly. Accidents do happen, and in our club they have resulted in a responsible attitude with people encouraged to learn from more experienced members, and more experienced members going on courses to learn more. There are in fact several ways to get discounted training - the Jonathon conville memorial trust is one of the more well known, but the BMC will also provide a training budget if you are affiliated to them, and there are other schemes too (which I have forgotten the name of currently). In addition there are things like the BMC winter lectures, and even the training DVDs. The problem is that you have to have someone in the club who is aware that these exist before anyone uses them.

Unfortuntaley though, accidents do happen. Although many (most/all?) are avoidable, we have all done stupid things at one time or another, and most of us get away with them and hopefully learn not to do it again. The one problem that comes with trying to create a safer introduction to the hills is that university unions, who are normally clueless about anything that's not a team sport, impose completely unworkable and ill-educated rules which can cripple a club.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: I'm affraid I have to agree with most others here. Accidents happen to us all without knowing when, it's just what happens. Yes they probably were in the wrong place at the wrong time. By the look of your profile I'd suggest you are not in the best place to make judgement on the situation given your seeming lack of experience that one would draw from someone who has only been climbing for 1 year.

With any luck the club in question will have a few words with themselves. Reputations about uni clubs spreads fast so anyone with any sense about them will probably aviod this club in future anyway.

I think students are getting enough of a bad rep. at the moment anyway.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I look forward to replying to this when I get back from the BMC meeting later. I'll have had a few beers so it should be good. Watch this space!

In reply to Monk: Thanks for that reply - really helpful.

I'm not clammouring from the rooftops to have them stopped from having their adventures and expeds but I am saddenned that this accident happened as it seemed that the source of the problem wasn't really them but the decision makers who let them travel up to the Lake District knowing that the students were inexperienced and that the kit was in a poor state or repair. They're University students and it was evident talking to them that they were all smart people and I'm sure that with the correct approach, they can have a fantastic time out on the hills and be safe.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

You should stop being an interfering busybody.

(however I do believe your post is a troll)

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I used to be heavily involved with the University of Bristol Mountaineer Club. One of my roles through the years was New Members and Training Secretary, so I have experience of how we as a club guided new members through the learning process.

When I was starting, we were lucky to have some very experienced climbers / mountaineers in the club. One was working for his MIA (and had aspirations to become a guide), others had MLs, SPAs, experience, etc etc. We were very careful to educate people as to what they needed to take for a day out on the hill - i.e. clothing, emergency shelter, torch, whatever. We explicitly provided kit lists for this purpose. During the time I was involved, we had nothing worse than the odd sprain (some people broke things, but this was when doing stuff outside of the club. No matter any way, accidents happen, and bodies break).

So, we took it seriously, and luckily didn't have any accidents either. I can't vouch for UBMC now, or other clubs at any point in time though, as I'm no longer involved.

In reply to ClimberEd: I suspect you're right, lets see

In reply to airbournegrapefruit: Thanks for the reply but my profile hasn't been updated in a long time!

I'm not battering them or judging them either - after talking to the students it was evident they hadn't been given much in the way of support or guidance.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

They are adults, they can do whatever the hell they want. However, the duty-of-care lines are rather complex in the university situation (implied consent and all that), and their H&S people should be supportive of them. We luckily had a fantastic union H&S person, who came climbing / mountaineering with us all the time, so he understood what needed to be done, and how the club operated. Didn't stop us having to arrange annual gear inspections by somebody qualified to at least MIA / MIC standard, prepare decent risk assessment for all crags we visited etc etc.

In reply to Doug:

pretty elaborate for a troll post

http://www.mountainrescue.org.uk/news/

27/11/10 Female climber fell from head wall of Helvellyn Location: Head Wall of Helvellyn

Patterdale Mountain Rescue Team were called by the Police at 16:00 to assist a climber who had fallen approximately 100ft off the face of Helvellyn. The woman, a 20 year old student from London, was winter climbing with a group of other students when she slipped.

The woman was treated at the scene for multiple injuries including facial injuries and a suspected fractured femur. She was placed in a spinal mattress after her leg was splinted and she was then air lifted from the scene by a Sea King Helicopter from RN Gannett. The woman was then flown to West Cumberland Hospital, Whitehaven for further treatment. Fifteen members of the Team assisted with her evacuation.

In reply to climbhead:

Surely all the cool kids get flown off by Prince William these days? The RN do a good job, but it's just not the same level of class...

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: Hmmm – tricky one really. I learned to climb in a uni club and some of my fondest climbing memories are with the bunch of folks who are still my friends. I suppose there are a number of issues going on here, but I would advocate that it is unfair to title this thread Uni climbing clubs when clearly the club in question is one of many. As for who is responsible – well who is responsible if you take a mate out for a days climbing. We are all adults and able to take responsibility for our own actions. I hate this idea that as a novice you delicate all responsibility for a situation. When I first started climbing, it was glaringly obvious to me that if I fell off, there was only one person to blame – me.

In reply to ClimberEd: Really!! I spent a long time holding the hand (taking pulse intermittently, checking she was okay, etc.) and talking to a very scared girl on Saturday night.

Accidents happen but, this post wasn't about insulting anyone here - I think it's a shame that clubs get a bad rep - I was part of a good climbing club and we were given loads of guidance and tuition. Are you or were you a member of a climbing club? How did you learn the skills you've gained over the years? Was safety and planning a part of what you learnt? Did any bad inciden't happen? If so, what did the club do about it to prevent repeats? Thanks

In reply to EeeByGum: Okay, bad choice of title, I'll admit but I can't change it now, thanks.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I think that what others have said about writing to the committee (if you can get hold of any contact details - if not PM me and I may be able to) rather than the uni is the best way to start.

If it turns out it was an organised trip, by incompetent committee and the club is unwilling to at least listen to your advice then getting in touch with the uni COULD be the next step. But be cautious about doing so, if this is an isolated incident then it would most likely have serious (an possibly unnecessary) implications on their club.

With regard to their lack of correct kit - they're students, and like it or not (as I'm sure you're aware) short on the funds front. That said, basic gear (e.g. a head torch, charged phones and a bothy bag) is by no means too much to ask. The 'broken crampons' if they belong to the club are however unacceptable - the club has a duty of care to ensure gear loaned out is of a serviceable standard. No-one expects top of the range club gear, but it HAS to be in safe working order.

With reference to those who allowed them to travel up to the lakes - it's a hard one. The uni policy makers will in all likelihood have little/no experience of winter climbing/walking, and it's important to avoid blanket rules. (i hear of 1 club who has had any walking above the snow line banned by their union - a dilemma if snow settles around you while on a trip e.g. at a campsite!) Rules like that are unhelpful and unnecessary.
The responsibility should lie with the committee members/trip leaders. However, here lies the next problem... qualifications. Very few/if any student will have any more qualification than SPA/ML (even with ML the majority are only trained, not qualified). Now I'm a bit hazy on the remits of different quals, but AFAIK neither allow you to take groups in winter conditions... thats the remit of the WML/MIC, and I'm prepared to bet that there are less than 5 students in the country (and these will be mature students) with those quals. So, qualified by experience... great idea, but who judges the experience?

Can you see what I'm getting at here, it's not black and white - there are many problems that uni clubs suffer from. While I'm not suggesting that no-one was at fault in this situation, it is easy to point the finger, but harder to actually find and address the problem.

Which is why, as others have said, there may not be an easy solution to the issues.

(And yes, I'm in a uni club, on the committee, but not from London!!)

H

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

No. Pretty much self taught with the odd course here and there.

If I joined a club (to do anything) I would assume I was responsible for my own safety. I did look at joining one uni club (when I had already been climbing for nearly 10 years) and was astounded at the amount of H&S loops they had to jump through.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

As a member of a university club at the moment, this interests me. I'm currently in charge of winter climbing in our club, and was last year, and agonise over the best way to approach training.
There are two sides of the argument. If a university put in place a rigid and tight guidance system, the club would collapse at our university. They don't have university minibuses and only care about clubs which bring in sports (BUCS) points for the university. As a result we are completely self funded and therefore skint. We can barely afford BMC affiliation and to re-new the gear we have. We cannot afford to subsidise many courses, but we do what we can.
No-one in the club can afford a climbing course indoors, another one outdoors, a winter one, a leading one; so something has to be self taught. Many people are either self taught, or pick things up as they go along from friends. Just because someone is a student doesn't mean this is any more dangerous. What is dangerous is people who have part-knowledge teaching others, and the fast turn around in a university club. If one years exec don't hand on the tips and tricks to running a safe and efficient club the next exec starts again, learning from scratch. they therefore make mistakes and things slip through the cracks.

The biggest challenge though, is stopping people who think they know what they're doing going off and doing so. I felt that someone last year was not prepared to go off and climb a particular route, as they didn't have the required climbing skills (no trad experience, only walking). Short of chaining them to the minibus, all I could do was advise very strongly against it and suggest alternatives. Luckily nothing happened, but I was worried all day.

Do any other university clubs have techniques for discouraging this "I know what I'm doing, leave me alone" attitude?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

What does an SPA have to do with winter soloing?

I am Safety Sec of a pretty large club and very few of our members are in anyway qualified. Those few who do have SPAs tend to be those newer to climbing, who I definitely would trust LESS in a situation such as this.

There is an issue with clubs having experienced members, but the key is to disperse these amoungst those who are less experiece. At Manchester we try to make sure that only experienced climbers and those who have attended a winter skills course take to the hills and I know many other university clubs do the same.

Helvelyn face is not too bad without crampons and I have done it myself without, but you are correct about it not being a place for someone illequiped AND inexperienced, but please forget all the rubbish about qualified leaders.

In reply to lindsam:


At the time there's very little you can you, and the few options you have all involve being relatively hard on them...

You can not allow them to use club gear - if they're reliant on that, thats one option.
You could ensure they don't have a partner, but if others are psyched too, you're left with the same issue.
Other than that, use your powers of persuasion, but it may well not be enough.

After that, if you feel it would be an issue again, just don't allow them on club trips - but explain why, and if they then see sense and change their views, so much the better.
If they're a half decent person then they'll see its simply not fair for those running the trip.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

All really interesting. I had heard somewhere that Uni clubs have a disproportionately high rate of accidents and hence there were BMC funds available to subsidise thgeir training ... Or this is a myth?

To back up this assumption though I see lots of dodgy practise (as well as good) displayed by uni clubs at the crag when I'm out with a group ... And while we've all been there with any organisation there's a big difference: an organisation suggests there are procedures in place to maintain safety. Such organisations as Uni clubs draw in disprportionate numbers of novices who go in ill-informed which is further compounded by a lack of fear (in younger people).

I hate health and safety (when it's all "wrong" and counter to common sense) but some basics need implementing and I think having qualified leaders working within their remit has to be a minimum requirement. Otherwise at some point the pendulum will swing completely to the other side and all sorts of daft rules will be applied.

And - yes - I understand that this applies only to some clubs and not all.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:
...Who is responsible for the safety of the students that are given minibusses and accomodation for expeditions and then let loose and allowed to go onto the mountain playground with crampons and axes?...

They are resposible, since they are adults.

(and I'd imagine they had to pay for accomodation plus van hire / fuel etc)

In reply to lindsam: Thanks for your reply. I mentioned earlier that the title wasn't particularly well picked by me and I could have done better - I'm sorry!

From the helpful posts that have been put up here, it seems like there is a fine line between me medling in their business (I'm not a guide/mountaineering expert/professional) and I'm definately not saying I know best (thus posting on here and asking for other people's views) and politely suggesting they check their kit and give a few basic lessons to people about safety.

In reply to ClimberEd: I'm not talking about Health and Safety legislation here - but employing and teaching basic skills, and being informed and well equiped.

Do you kow if the club you looked at joining gave new and inexperienced members help with how to fit crampons, put on harnesses, read maps, first aid, etc?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I think that you are labouring under a bit of a misapprehension as to the levels of authority at play here. It's not a case of letting anyone do anything. You just hire a minibus; no-one cares what you are doing with it. As for the kit - the sad reality is that not all uni clubs/students have the best kit. You make do with what you can afford or borrow. I always try hard to ensure that our club kit is safe and servicable, but due to the age of things like crampons, they do sometimes break. The gear secretary (or whoever) is not really responsible for what you do with the kit you lend out - it's not practical. If you lend out a trad rack, you can't really tell the borrower that they can only climb roadside VDiffs, for example.

In the case of an organised trip (as it sounds this one was), some clubs will operate a more organised system of group A does this, group B does this, but again these decisions are not being made by an MIC. If a group with some walking experience says that they want to give winter climbing a go, then a grade 1 on a clearly snowy Helvellyn doesn't actually sound all that unreasonable from the warmth of your hut. I agree with you that it would be wise for them to carry some emergency gear and have an idea what to do with it, but even if you issue a kit list you are not seriously going to do a full kit check on a group of young adults, so it is unenforcable.

I agree that education would be a good thing, and many people do a lot of work to this end. However, the reality is that it is very tricky to control what is effectively a group of consenting adults.

In reply to Franco Cookson: yea - I don't like my doctors to be qualified - just want them to be experienced ...

There's a lot to be said for experienced people - but some people have got a long way on luck and are still considered experienced. Remember qualifications are awarded based on skills and experience by an objective third party.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

Well done for doing your bit, touch wood I've never seen a serious accident in the mountains and I hope that if I do, I'll be as calm as you were.

I also hope the girl in question makes a full and speedy recovery.

A quick bit of googling tells me the club you're talking about. The Lakes in November is not on their official meets list which tells me this is just a group of people, on their own, who happen to belong to a university climbing club.

In reply to lindsam:



Fortunately this is quite rare in our club, but someone was once banned from attending any trips or events as they were a total liability.

In reply to 999thAndy: Fair enough, you're right they're all adults, but maybe if someone with more experience had given them some tuition regarding weather, analysing the snow, first aid, etc, they'd have had a different ending to their day in a pub having a few drinks and feeling fit and well.

Did you join a club to learn to climb? If so, how did you learn basic safety skills and emergency measures to be safe when out and about?

Winter environments are more serious places to be than in the summer months and can be very dangerous places to be. We can all feel confident and safe and warm when the sun shines and there isn't not much wind but everything becomes real when the poop hits the fan and it's pitch black, cold and someone's badly hurt.

In reply to Will Legon:



Not a myth - there is money available.




That is totally unworkable for a student club. There are always only 1 to 3 members of our club with any qualifications, and they are invariably older members such as postgrads or hangers-on. As you can't really start the NGB awards until you are 19 (a year after you join uni) and you need a good portion of consilidation, plus several hundred pounds outlay to do training and assessment, it is very very difficult for a student to get these awards before they leave the uni. As soon as you are talking about employing professionals, you are pretty much instantly leaving the realms that a student budget can reach.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Someone who has an SPA has been assessed against a certain criteria but you're very correct - there's no substitue for good old fashioned experience and time either.

You'd not have wanted to do a gully on Helvelyn face yesterday, crampons or not! Talking to other people, the fresh dry powdery snow wasn't really lending itself to a happy day in a gully. I think the butresses on the other hand were iced and people were having a good day out there.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Well done Franco, experience is good. What you need is some way of making sure that somebody has relevant experience, in a fair and measured way that is the same for everybody. Whatyou could do is spend a week going through a series of exercises and tests, going through a variety of subjects relevant to the area of experience you are checking. Why not issue them with some kind of piece of paper or sticker so that other people can see what level of experience they have been checked to?

Oh wait, that sounds familiar... isn't that a qualification? I agree that SPA isn't relevant to the OP's post, but let's try not to divert here...

To the OP:
As others have said, write to or otherwise contact the club President, and spell out your concerns. You do have a right to say something: you were heavily involved in the safe outcome of a club-cockup by the sounds of it. Qualified leaders etc is beyond the means, and spirit, of Uni clubs but having a minimum kit list or an advisory guidelines for people leading a trip can't be a bad thing.

IMO we all have a duty of care to other people, be it on the hill or on the street. If i see somebody in slippers, shorts and singlet on a high street on a November night, I probably won't say anything unless they are obviously in a bad way. But if i see them halfway up the ZigZags on the PYG at half 5 on a November evening, i'll go out of my way to have a word. The attitude of 'nothing to do with me', when applied to mountaineering etc leads to unnecessary MRT callouts or worse. I've searched for missing people on 'busy' mountains who must have been spotted wandering around in a bad way by dozens of people in the preceeding hours, not always with a positive outcome...

My own opinions, not those of any body or organisation i may be seen to represent etc etc...

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: Well done for a good response on your part Becky, the group were lucky you were there by the sounds of it.

I remember being shown a case study of a university club incident when I did my ML, found a reference to the incident on the BMC website:

"Another case has some similarities. A few years ago a party of 8 hill walkers climbed up into Parsley Fern gully at the back of Cwm Glas in winter conditions. They had little winter equipment between them and 2 of the women in the party fell, one of whom, aged 28 was killed. The nominal leader of the party was a male student. The level of responsibility and duty of care was investigated and there was no prosecution. A verdict of accidental death was given because the leader of the group was acting reasonably in accordance with his level of experience and the rest of the group made their own judgement to follow the nominal leader. If the leader had been qualified or more experienced and the group were all clearly novices, a different outcome may have been reached. "

If you can be bothered to search around a bit I'm sure you could find the original article. However the article makes an interesting point about the duty of care, which has clearly been an issue in this incident also.

It is interesting the diversity of regulation universities place on clubs. I know of some universities where qualifications are essential for students on the committee, however it seems there are others with a very lapse attitude.

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:


Really? Wow! I am staggered.... so you know uni that run Alpine trips (hence they have a BMG), run scottish winter trips with both climbing and walking (hence they have an MIC and WML), teach people to lead (hence they have an MIA).... (Ok, yes, not all of these are needed, but assuming the club runs alpine trips, they need at least 1 BMG)

I'm genuinely impressed by this club... I wish we had these people, they'd make my life a lot easier.

But please answer me this: How did these committee members have the time and the money to become so qualified? I'd like to have a go to.

Pillock.

In reply to sweenyt:

*too

Sorry, I don't need the spelling and grammar police too.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

On some trips you'll have 20+ people going into the hills. the majority of the will be on graded winter routes, some leading upto winter VII+. The level of qualification you'd need to be responsible for those people is ridiculous- around 8 MIAs. How many 20 year old MIAs do you know?

If you're plainly suggesting that it's useful to have people with lower qualifications such as SPA on a winter trip, then you are right to some degree. But I know multiple people with SPAs who have never placed an ice screw, worn crampons, tested the snow pack, navigated off a hill in a white out etc. There the skills that are useful, not making a 5 point belay.

I'm aware that this comes across as an anti SPA rant, which it isn't. I'm plainly suggesting that thinking a club is reckless for having people on the hills without qualifications is flawed.

I'm pretty new to the forums on this site.. but, does a "troll" mean a fake post? I can assure you, I was there and this is no fantasy! This girl was so lucky and I'm so grateful that it was a few cuts, bruises and maybe broken bones, I shudder to think what it could have turned out like. I was with this poor girl and her party for some time on Saturday night and myself and my husband and another chap on a day trip stayed with them through the whole thing and we all walked off with them with members of Patterdale Mountain Rescue Team.

Please don't think I am touting myself as a mountain guru who knows everything and anything about survival and safety - I'm certainly not that!!! I'm just someone who really enjoys climbing and am pretty shaken up by the whole thing. As a mother myself, I'd like to think someone would teach my child a few things about safety in any adventurous hobby before sending him on his merry way.

In reply to sweenyt: God you're a prick. I simply made a comment on my past observations of clubs, this wasn't intended to cause any upset in the slightest, clearly this has (for some reason) offended you. However as for me being a "pillock", wind your neck in, the club is question obviously doesnt force students to get MIC and BMG, I was refering to ML and SPA (these are not requirements at a number of student clubs correct?), the student union do however insist that the club hire local guides for alpine trips, scotland trips etc .....Is this so unrealistic to you?


Idiot

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:


Yes. Would you go winter climbing if you had to pay a guide everytime you went up Helvelyn?

And to Becky, Do you have a Winter ML?

In reply to Franco Cookson: Okay, qualification and experience are very interchangeable here and I do accept that - this is why I wanted to "talk" about it with other people and see what others thought. I don't know any 20 year olds on the guide schemes btw.

I wasn't saying they all need qualifications - maybe advice and guidance would be appropriate to a cash strapped club such as this one might be - if you were to contact them, what would you want to suggest to them in terms of guidance and advice to inexperienced people going out on the hill. It seems that there is a pattern (or repeated scenario) with this club that other people from clubs haven't experienced (or known or admitted). And with regards to SPAs, I wasn't specifically talking about SPA I was talking about "MLTs and similar" types of qualification or even giving guidance and passing on knowledge to others i.e. teaching them about boot and crampon fitting and compatability.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: Haven't had time to read the posts thoroughly. I'm president of Durham University Hill Walking Society. Winter is a problem every year as our members always want to get up in the hills however they aren't prepard (usually unable) to afford equipment or courses. The small number of us who actively participate in winter sports teach those with equipment what we can. Where a group isn't equipped we send a leader who knows how to assess conditions and turn back, though more often a low level walk is enforced.
It is easy to get into a situation where groups are allowed to go up unsuitably equipped as often there is no problem and so people assume it's ok as long as they are careful.
It's a lot of responsibility for students who are leading, to take on. Peer pressure or lack of experience makes it easy for bad decisions to be made.
Personally I think Unis need to take more responsibility for their student societies. Certainly I can do what I want in terms of leadership, and the uni just pick up the pieces if things go wrong, or leave us alone if they don't. In reality they should be getting people in as consultants to make sure things are safe and working properly, as well as offering training. Student societies and students themselves often can't afford this.

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

Don't know about you, but I'd rather have someone experienced on winter routes/conditions teaching me, rather than an SPA/ML.

I think franco sums it up well.

Re hiring guides, yes it is unrealistic... if you have 5 climbing pairs for example, with different abilities, either you need to hire 5 guides, only let them climb 1 in every 5 days, climb at the level of the weakest group... none of which are realistic due to budget, or pissing off the more experienced members and driving them out of the club. Or not everyone MUST climb with a guide, oh look, we're back to the issue of a lack of quals.

In reply to Franco Cookson: No, I am a well trained, well equipped experienced mountaineer who has attended a number of courses on various aspects of winter mountaineering, including winter ML training. Some of these students are being introduced (with no experience) into an environment they have no idea about, being lead (in some cases) by someone else who has very little experience also. If you were a university student union head - who ultimately would be asked the question "why did you allow this to happen?" in court if the shit hit the fan, what measures would you take?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I think the main points are why didn't the group have appropriate emergency kit. Why was the uni club kit in a poor state and more importantly it would seem that the CLUB has not necessarily learnt from it's previous mishap (whether it was on a uni trip it matters not, lessons should be learnt and acted on).

Agreed, accidents happen, i was picked up by keswick MRT after a mountain biking accident. However my mate and i had between us a first aid kit (not much use given the severity of the incident), spare clothing, ermergency blanket, mobile phone and the ability to get a position to pass onto the MRT (map, compass, GPS and my intricate local knowledge of the area).

The club needs to ask a few questions, did everyone have the appropriate kit, was the kit the club issued in a servicable state and were the routes / aims of the group achievable given their collective previos experience? Did any of the afore mentioned points contribute or cause the incident or was it a total accident which no one could have prevented?

I am not a massive fan of H&S rules/regs and i always seek adventure and feel that a great training value can be gained by pushing one's limits. HOWEVER, there really is no excuse for not being fully prepared and ensuring that everybody knows what to do if an incident occurs.... what happens if the leader is involved in the accident?

Also to the few people on UKC who bang on about peoples profiles / experience and what right do they have to pass judgement etc etc etc All i would say is that is pays not to make assumptions!! I find your input midly annoying and not constructive in this forum.

In reply to sweenyt: So rather than slate my cited example, why don't you tell me how your club deals with this issue then?

In reply to Franco Cookson: No, I wouldn't pay a guide to go up Helvelyn every time but equally, I want to go with someone who's experienced and I felt safe with. I've not got a Winter ML either and am in no way presenting myself as knowing what to tell anyone on this subject.

If you were a very novice winter climber, would you want to go up a gully on Helvelyn in the conditions that were there? Maybe the group didn't know that it wouldn't be safe with what they had been given. Maybe if the students had been taught a bit more about what to look for and what to expect, they'd have given it a wide berth and not be worrying about their friend who went to hospital.

Please don't try and goad me - I was so worried about this girl and the rest of the group and was caught up in this terrible incident which was so easily avoided and I'd like to emphasise that I am not presenting myself as a professional in anyway whatsoever!

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: To be honest Becky there are a lot of people on here who would rather get into an arguement with you than attempt to see you point of view sadly.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I would suggest that whoever is responsible for safety makes sure that people only go into the hills if they are either experienced or with someone experienced.

They also need to point out to new recruits that they are responsible for their own safety. And make sure there is a winter skills course for those inexperienced.

You need to look at the situation specifically:

*If the person who fell said they were experienced and fell then the responsibility lies with them.

*If they said they weren't experienced then the responsiblity lies with nominal experienced person (if the person who fell said they weren't happy with what they were doing). As they shouldn't be in the hills.

*If she didn't express concern at what they were doing, then it is her fault and the leader. (If she is totally inexperienced)

*If there wasn't anyone vaguely experienced, then it was a mixture of the group of students who decided to take on the route's fault and the club for not checking there were experienced people with beginners. But beginners shouldn't be out at all really.

It's all pretty complicated, but blame almost always lies with the person who falls,if they have experience. If they aren't then, they shouldn't really be in the mountains with a club before they attend a winter skills course.

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

If your partners aren't trained to your level then you aren't experienced to guide them.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: After reading a few replies I think your concerns are just and well done for going to their aid. Some of the people who have been a bit rude shouldn't have been.

Shutting the club down is probably a bit far though. Mountaineering is dangerous inherently but perhaps their procedures should be examined a bit.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:


They are responsible for themselves. University climbing clubs are much like any other climbing clubs: they are there to enable climbers to meet together for climbing; they are not set up as instructional courses that take responsibility for novice's safety, in the way that a commercial course would.


This question is not specific to students, so one could ask, should everyone be made to go on courses before being allowed to go into the hills? Most climbers would answer "no".


As adults, it is up to them to assess whether they need training and then to obtain it if desired. Commercial instruction courses cost a lot of money, and if you insisted that everyone must take them before being allowed in the hills then that would deter or prevent many people from doing so. At the moment we have freedom to roam into the hills at will, and most of us would be against losing that.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Becky doesn't have a winter ML, however that isn't the point. She has been fortunate enough to go to a club that offered good advice and guidance to ensure that whatever activities she took part in were done in a fashion that wouldn't increase the inherant risks associated with outdoor pursuits.

And more importantly she has a) got the common sense to take suitable emergency kit b) got the inteligence to realise that there are potential systematic failures with the london uni club c) the knowledge, equipment and skills to assist in a situation and d) got the moral integrity to bring it to an open forum for discussion.

Becky and her husband could have just buggered off down the hill and been sat in a warm pub having a pint.... would that have benefited the youg lass who was injured?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

You sited it as almost an outrage that there was noone in the team with qualifications. That was wrong as it is uneccessary and unreasonable for clubs to have to always have qualified people in a team.

In reply to Gob_Stopper:

I don't think getting affordable i.e. virtually free, quality training would be a great problem. There are lots of apsirant MIA/MIC types out there looking for good mountain days in their log books with groups. I think the problem is that there is not a mechanism in place to put BMC affiliated clubs and trainee instructors together.

In reply to Franco Cookson: That makes no sense? Why would I be guiding someone who was the same level as me? And you didnt really answer my question, I said if you head was on the line (i.e. The buck stops with you if something bad happens to the group) What procedures would you put in place to minimise the risk?

In reply to ChrisHolloway1: Thank you, I'm relatively new to the UKC forums page and can see I've been a tad naieve with regards to setting the torchpaper alight here! I thought other people would be concerned and surprised that similar incidents have happened twice in the same club in a relatively short space of time.

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

The ones I previously stated:

*Only experienced people in the hills
*inexperienced trained by proffessionals

Becky said it was not right that people were out without a suitible guide.

If a novice was out with you, they would not be comvered by your courses, so would be equally unguided as if they were with a novice. (technically)

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

As Franco said, our club's requirements for any person wishing to attend a club trip in winter conditions is that they have a) been on a winter skills course arranged by the club and run by people appropriately qualified b) they have had previous experience of the basics of winter mountaineering and so for whom the winter skills course may not be necessary. On the trips themselves no collection of relatively inexperienced people are allowed off on their own and are instead grouped with more experienced people from within the club, these people do not have to be officially qualified but are those known to and trusted by the club as being competent.

Beyond this what would you suggest clubs do? Highering a guide for every trip is completely unfeasible and expecting possibly 6 people of about 20 years of age to be suitably qualified to lead groups in winter conditions up to any grade is just unrealistic.

In reply to Dark Peak Paul: I don't know how many aspirant MIA/MIC are about but if there are a lot about then bring uni clubs and these people together would be a great idea.

Things like the BMC winter lecture are great. But being lectured too doesn't really teach you anything that is properly transferable to the mountains. The members in our club are even more keen now since going and so more likely to try and go out unprepared. There needs to be training on the hill available. Our club does have some good contacts with guides who do cheaper courses, and there is also the like of Conville, but perhaps more could be done.

I still think universities should exercise more duty of care of their students. Obviously they shouldn't be meddling but just keeping an eye and ensuring there is good training. At the end of the day a couple of days guide hire a year isn't that expensive and could really benefit a club.

In reply to Franco Cookson: And I wouldn't disagree with you on that, in fact I never actually disagreed with the current system, an arguement was started because I mentioned a club I knew of a while back did things a different way, at no point did I say it was "the right way" I just thought it might interest people.

In reply to melonmike: See my reply above

In reply to Franco Cookson: You're picking on one or two words from a large statement in my initial post here and reading something that's not necessarily there. I've said many times here that expereince and quals are valuable and that nothing beats time served expereine overall.

A qualified leader doesn't necessarily mean someone who's got an armful of certificates, it means "suitably qualified" that could be someone who's got the experience too.

I'm even more stunned that they didn't have an emergency shelter!

Ditto broken crampons...
Ditto ill fitted harnesses...
...

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

Actually no, dissimilar incidents involving different clubs. I have emailed you further information to avoid any confusion. Please don't spread inaccurate information.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I see that it appears that i'm picking at your post, but they are pretty major things. I agree with you on the main and i'm not attempting to defend the choices of that club.

I have explained my resoning for disagreeing with guiding or qualifications being compulsory and I think you've accepted that.

Broken crampons and ill fitted harness are unacceptable, but crampons breaking in a fall the size you describe is understanderble. Were they previously broken, then the club was wrong to continue with thier origional plan, unless the climber was happy with it or an extra safety measure introduced (EG ROPE).

I disagree that an emergency shelter is compulsory int he UK. I never carry one and don't think it neccessary for UK climbing. I've only recently started carrying a first aid kit in my capacity as safety sec and severly hinders performance on harder or long routes.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:
I agree with Becky that this was a serious incident and that the girl was lucky not to have been more badly injured. I suspect that the girl did not know what she was letting herself in for; there is not nuch snow and ice in Thailand. Here clothes and equipment seemed lacking. Her boots looked pretty bendy and possibly never had crapons- certainly not when she landed. The bloke with her said 'she was doing really wellup till then'implying she was novice. She should not have been there and the party leader,if there was one, should think about that.
I understand Becky's concerns. It is difficult to give advice to people who have travelled a long way to do something and do not understand conditions. Perhaps the BMC could do a bit more with University clubs that, on average, will be the ones with the least experience among their members? Well done Becky, you did a good job with the girl; let's hope she recovers OK. Regards Roger

In reply to Gob_Stopper:

I'm not sure how many there are either. However,I suspect there are more than enough to make a valuable contribution. If any uni clubs are reading this post and want to test the water, why not drop Rachael at the MLTA an e-mail. I'm sure she would be happy to put a post on the MLTA forum asking qualified MLs to get in touch with you if they need QMDs with groups.

As well as MLs working towards MIA/MIC, there are also CWA and SPA holders working towards CWLA and MIA, so you could probably blag some free climbing tuition too. Being able to work a little out of remit under the BMC umbrella is useful in this respect.

In reply to Gob_Stopper:


If you start arquing that universities have a duty of care to students going into the hills in the same way that a hired and qualified guide would, then you are effectively closing down student climbing clubs -- or, more likely, restricting them to summer top-roping supervised by an SPA.

In reply to Coel Hellier: I'm not arguing that neccessarily. Just that universities should take an active interest in the well being of their students. Particularly in socities which do dangerous things. The belief in Durham seems to be that as long as insurance is up to scratch they'll let us get on with it. This is great, but I'd like see them offering us days where they'll pay for a guide to come down and see us and teach us some stuff...things like that. Currently the society has to foot the bill for all our emergency kit, all our courses have to be paid for by students, most equipment is paid for by students. Students are only going to get poorer, the way things are going. Universities have budgets that could be wisely spent here. The problem is that the money always goes on football, rugby, rowing and cricket i.e. the usual sports.

In reply to Eric the Red: I've just had an email from someone about this - apparently, the clubs aren't related.

In reply to Franco Cookson: The girl's boots were quite bendy and I am lead to believe they may have even caused the fall by pinging off a boot.

When we got back to the car, it was minus 8.5'C. At a considerable height, things were colder and the shelter helped her, I am sure.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: Agreed, I would say a decent sized first aid kit and group shelter(s) are essential safety gear for a group.

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

Like I say, depends on the group. For a large inexperienced walking/scrambling party like this i would agree, for a small group of mainly experienced mixed climbers it isn't.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Difference of opinion I guess, I always stick in a small group shelter in even if I'm out with an experienced group.Personal preference though

In reply to Franco Cookson:

So accidents can't happen to experienced groups....

I'm sorry but your talking out of your arse, if you have a lack of skills or knowledge, taking more emergency kit can make up for this. With experience it is possible to reduce essential kit to a bare minimum, but you'd be foolish not to take the bare minimum.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I must say I think the whole 'they're adults' thing is a bit glib. When I was at university three people got killed and I can think of a few occasions on which we were lucky it wasn't more.

Not that I have any particular solution, but it's really a bit Darwinist not to be worried by it at all.

jcm

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

Indeed, probably why I use a 30 litre bag and you have the mega thing in your profile picture

In reply to Franco Cookson: "mega thing"....you mean my Osprey Mutant 38 Litre, the extra 8 litres makes all the difference

In reply to Franco Cookson: It was our group shelter but we gave it to someone who really needed it. The other chap who was also helping the girl and the group was on a day trip on his own but had a spare kit and an emergency shelter - from what I could see, he was pretty expereinced on the hills but you never know when you (or someone you encounter) will need it.

I also know some BMG's who always take a shelter with them... just in case.

In reply to birdman:


where did I sy that?


Not really. If you have a lack of skills for what you're doing, you shouldn't be doing it!

With experience it is possible to reduce essential kit to a bare minimum, but you'd be foolish not to take the bare minimum.

I agree. Bare minimum for me is a shell, water, phone, down jacket and food. I fundementally disagree that it is essential to take a bothy and a massive first aid kit up a VII.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

30 litres! What do you carry? I'll carry everything for 3 days in a bag that size. Including a shelter.

You talk about experience but there you are, barely out of nappies declaring that an emergency shelter is not necessary in the UK. F*ck me.

In reply to Franco Cookson: I think you're not concerned about new climbers learning skills and getting expereine but much more interested in causing an argument - every post you put here is inflamatory.

I agree with Birdman, you did imply that you're "too good" to carry a shelter. You might not think you need it but what if you get avalanched or a walker falls through a cornice onto you? What if you come across someone who needs your help and all you can do it stand and watch them freeze?

If you had to give a brief lesson on the basics, what would you teach some novice climbers about being out in the winter environment?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

Becky, I have emailed you about this incident. I would be grateful if you could get in touch so we can discuss further.

Philip Leadbeater

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I'm not too good to carry a shelter, I have just experienced many of the worst things the UK can dish-out and have coped fine.

I stayed a night out on scafel in winter with no shelter when I was 13, got caught in an avalanche on Ben Nevis when I was 16, fell down Helevelyn East face when I was 18. Each time I coped.

I haven't experienced a life threatening injury in winter, but I reckon I'm less likely to be life-threateningly injured and need a bothy bag, than fall off a route due to the extra kilos i'd be carrying up some marginal hooking terain due to fulfilling your obligatory safety requirements.

As for other people. I primarily look after myself and partners in the hills. If I could, I would go out of my way to help others, and have, but I would not factor that into what I pack for the hill.

In reply to Franco Cookson: I once camped in my parents back garden in Cambridge when I was 9.....was touch and go for a while but I managed to pull through

In reply to Eric the Red:

I agree, use the same bag in the alps.


I actually said this:

"Like I say, depends on the group. For a large inexperienced walking/scrambling party like this i would agree, for a small group of mainly experienced mixed climbers it isn't."

Don't go down the abusive line, i've done a lot of climbing and a lot of walking before that, emergancy shelters are useful, but not essential.

In reply to leadbeater: Email read and replied to - thanks.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Hi Fran,

I wouldn't carry an emergency shelter up a route, but then I wouldn't carry more than 1 belay jacket, two head torches, two pairs of mitts and some snacks up any route if i could avoid it.

However they are useful bits of kit and if I am climbing on a remote crag, like one with no phone signal, I'll carry one and leave them in my proper sack at the base of the route.

I can't imagine many climbers lead grade VII with a sack on.

As an experienced climber on the committee of a university climbing club I think they are a scary and dangerous way of introducing people into climbing.

HTH

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I heard the scream from swirral edge and assumed it was one of the climbing parties screaming "Take Take".

Uni clubs are a mixture of both the very experienced and complete novices.
In my past experience of 6 years membership and association with various Uni mountaineering clubs, I have noted that various people joining the clubs. Some people are brilliant climbers with an abundance of talent and common sense resulting in solid, dependable climbers who can calculate risk and can climb safely.
Then there are those members who don't have an ounce of common sense, are not observant and don't listen to advice given by more experience members. The latter are usually the people who end up having an accident.

Other factors regarding clubs include the strength and experience of the committee, and the experience of the members, which in smaller mountaineering clubs can wax and wain significantly over a period of years depending on the ability of the members.

To answer your question, I should say that the mountaineering club's governing body (the student union) will probably be having a witch hunt in order to point the finger of blame at someone. I would place some amount of blame on the individual that fell (because they weren't looking after them self). If all the protocols were followed, the club committee can't be blamed because at the end of the day the individual who fell was ultimately responsible for their own safety. Uni mountaineering clubs, like other mountaineering clubs are there to help enable people to get out into the mountains, and are not there as a target solely for legal action when things go wrong.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: Not sure if any of this has been sad already, didn't have the energy to read the whole thread!

I haven't got bags of money but in the last 18months have been lucky enough to learn to climb from scrathch to the level where i have led HVS, dabbled in ice climbing, and am half way through my SPA.

I have been very lucky in having some very good, experienced and qualified friends to climb with but i have also voluntereed to go out climbing with trainee MIA's on 4 or 5 occasions, sometimes for more than one day. If your flexible with time and what you want to learn/practice and willing to travel this is a great free way to get really good quality tuition. All these opputunites have been found on ukc.

I got chatting to a couple of BUMS members at the local wall and they where talking about learning to trad lead off fellow (unqualified) members of there club...i gently warned them about the pitfalls of this way of learning something that is potentially very dangerous and i pointed them in the direction of one of these trainiee MIA's and they sorted out a day with him...so it's not impossible to get free tuition, and help someone else out along the way.

I'm always amazed at how greatful this trainee MIA's are to have people to take out for practice, i always think i've got an absoulte bargain.

As for writing to the uni, i would definately contact the sports unions secretary with all the facts (maybe leave out too much in the way of opinion), how they take it from there is up to them.

Other sports unions are forced to use qualified instructors due to being reliant on hiring facilities for there sports (ie trampoline clubs) and they manage, so just cause mountaineering takes people into the unregulated world of the outdoors, there is no valid reason why they can't have qualified intructors in the mountaineering unions.

In reply to Sarah Finney:

I disagree with every point you raise there.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

That sounds like a nasty thing to have witnessed Becky. Hope the girl recovers ok and that you're not put off going into the hills for too long. I don't know anything about the club in question or the circumstances so I won't comment on that, but as a previous University Mountaineering Club president here's my two-pence worth on club's responsibilities:

At the earliest opportunity the club should make clear that its primary function is as a group of like minded climbers and to facilitate access to climbing areas. As per the BMC guidance "Ensure that every person involved is aware (and accepts for themselves) that those perceived of as ‘in charge’, or even just leading a walk, are not necessarily qualified, do not need to be qualified, are not regarded by the club nor regard themselves as ‘technical experts’, but are amateur climbers, walkers or mountaineers with some experience who are happy to impart their knowledge and that any advice given be viewed with this in mind by the recipient.!"
At all times when publicising club trips clubs should try to avoid 'sexing up' trips, so people really know what climbing Snowdon in Feburary is likely to involve.

This does not absolve clubs of responsibility but I think it's the spirit in which clubs should be run, and it's very important that new members realise that that is the way the club is being run. Hopefully that way only those who want an adventure end up in the adventurous and thus dangerous situtations.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Blimey. If I ever find myself out with you I'll not just make sure I have an emergency shelter but I'll have an avalanche beacon, a satellite phone, a full surgical medical kit and I'll make a pre-emptive mountain rescue call out before we leave. You're NOT invincible.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

This BMC guidence for clubs on risk and responsibility makes for interesting reading http://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmcNews/media/u_content/File/clubs_huts/clubs/Club%...

In reply to Eric the Red:

But experienced.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

But with all due respect your 19 and i'm 10 years older, i've been through uni so i do have an idea how it works, i now work for the ambulance service, so get to see the results of these incidents first hand. And i am on the verge of taking my SPA assesment...a recognised qualification...

Maybe you could elaborate on what it is you disagree with?!

Ok fair enough, but how do you know that this unqualified member isn't an E6 leader with an incredible amount of experience behind them?

No one should ever need a qualification to climb.

In reply to Steve Banham: Sadly not a scream to take (alas no rope). I have had an email from one of the people in the group and they have let me know that the girl is in hospital and doing well which is wonderful news and the rest of the group are well too. From the email I read, it appears that they are really thinking about what went wrong and where to go from here in order to minimise the risk.

One of the knife edges of this discussions appears when someone doesn't know how serious the situation they are in really is because they might be new to winter mountaineering and not told about the risks of going into the certain situations and how to have a good time. Another is: can a simple lesson be built in to the callendar of events within the club to talk about what to put in your pack on trips. I am sure a witch hunt will not ensue but hope that some careful reflection occurs from all people involved

In reply to Franco Cookson:
Lucky but not something to be proud of... and what exactly does your mother think of all this

In reply to bigbobbyking: Thank you for that.

In reply to Gaz lord:
Just because you can do something does not neccesarily mean they can teach it!

And often it's not the things that you teach but the things that you don't realise that you missing out that get people killed... hence why people are trained and more crucially assesed on how to teach the skills.

In reply to Sarah Finney:

If you want to talk about numbers, let's talk about how long you've been climbing, how many routes you've done, how many metres you've climbed, how many people you've climbed with, how many different sorts of climbing you've tried, how many places you've been to, what grades you climb, anything at all climbing related. Age has sod all to do with any of it.

If you started climbing 18 months ago, you have no idea how uni mountaineering clubs work and I doubt you drive your ambulance up Helvelyn very often. Your qualification of being a Single Pitch Award leader only further concretes my worry the majority of those holders being relatively new to climbing.




Well...


"I have been very lucky in having some very good, experienced and qualified friends to climb with but i have also voluntereed to go out climbing with trainee MIA's on 4 or 5 occasions"

So they didn't actually hold qaulifications?

"I got chatting to a couple of BUMS members at the local wall and they where talking about learning to trad lead off fellow (unqualified) members of there club..."

The traditional way to learn to climb

"i gently warned them about the pitfalls of this way of learning something that is potentially very dangerous and i pointed them in the direction of one of these trainiee MIA's and they sorted out a day with him..."

So you persuaded them against learning off friends and towards climbing with unqualified people you didn't know?


As for writing to the uni, i would definately contact the sports unions secretary with all the facts (maybe leave out too much in the way of opinion), how they take it from there is up to them.

If she sends a letter anything like the origional post the union will impose conditions which will shut the club down.

In reply to Sarah Finney:

Thank you Sarah. Do you have more information about finding people who are looking for instructional days in their guidebooks?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: Hi becky
Me and my mate (martin) were with you that night! We were climbing down number 2 gully and heard the guy shouting for help. Was truly a shocking fall, her partner said they were soloing near the top of the face. Thats really what I can't get my head round, why the two of them were without rope when it was her 1st time climbing.
Poor girl it was a rough night, hope she's ok.
We left you guys at red tarn and went down via the hole in the wall.

Stephen

In reply to Franco Cookson: This isn't about grades and numbers and years of experience - it's about making sure people have the right kit for what they're doing and also for emergencies should things go wrong.

We are all aware of the "experience" you're pushing in our faces (you really are the Cassonova of the Climbing World - although I missed your lecture at the Kendal Film Festival the other week and I've not seen your climbing video.

Please answer a question I put to you ages ago....

If you were to teach some novice people about being out in the winter environment, what would you teach them. What would you want them to pack? Please, this forum isn't about attacking people, it's about offering suggestions.


You say you're an experienced climber, pass on some of your knowledge!!!!

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

You have every qualification going and you lead grade II in winter. No wonder you favour qualifications over experience. I'll climb with Franco's team thanks.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

But life experience not speccificaly climbing experience counts for a massive amount.


No but we've got bigger mountains than that in North Wales.


They had taken part in 6 day MIA course and all went on to pass the assesment.

And one of my climbing partners has just published a book on climbing coaching, and is currently teaching people to be instructors, co i reckon that qualifies him, don't you?!


And one that's ended up with a very nice girl nearly losing her life, and then her leg this year in north wales


Not neccesarily, but a death followed by the involvement of the health and safety exacuative might achieve that!

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

Most people i've found advertise in the 'lifts and partners' or 'starting out' sections. Everyone of those experiences has been a positive one, and i've learnt something new, and built up more confidence everytime. They are always keen to take people out for guided scrambles as well.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

To all those suggesting that uni clubs using trainee MIAs or similar... I don't really see how this is better than the status quo. In fact I think it may be worse. It amounts to saying "here, trust this guy none of us have ever met, but who says he's experienced" rather than trusting some people that you do know to be reasonable and responsible.

In reply to steallan: Hi Stephen - I've had an email and she's in hospital recovering. She's a lucky young lady indeed, she must be made of kevlar.

Scary stuff really - they shouldn't have been there at all.

Best wishes

In reply to flaneur: I'm sorry when exactly did I say anything about experience vs qualifications? And when did I say "I have every qualification under the sun? (I think you need to go do a bit of reading on UK qualifications dick) You pathetic worthless waste of DNA sod off back under your bridge and stay there. Profiless nameless faces like you are the worst thing about this forum.

In reply to bigbobbyking:

I'm not suggesting that uni clubs use trainee MIA's, i'm suggesting that individual students might want to get off there arses and find their own instruction. They are adults after all.

In reply to bigbobbyking: I'd rather trust someone on MIA training than someone I didn't know that well. We all know of people who can big up their experience but an MIA is an excellent and rigorous course and assessment. You can't begin to do the MIA training until you've had a pre course assessment anyway!


She should never have been soloing up a gully!!!!

In reply to Gob_Stopper:


But there's a big legal issue here. As I understand it (and perhaps jcm can contradict me if I'm wrong), if the university gets involved in supervising, controlling and funding the activity then it automatically acquires a legal duty of care. In other words, if they went down this line they would have to go the whole hog and essentially run climbing courses in the same way (and with the same levels of professional staff) as a commercial guiding company. Given the cost of that they would either not do it or charge students a large amount for it.

I'm not saying there isn't an issue here, with novices going along to student clubs and often learning informally from those only slightly more experienced, but it's not obvious how to fundamentally change that without massively reducing the opportunities for people to participate.

Many of these clubs do a good job of doing what they can to advise novices, but it should be accepted that climbing clubs are peer collectives, not professional instructional organisations, and those choosing to participate should be aware of that.

In reply to Sarah Finney: Fantastic - I'll take a peek!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Depends what you mean by experienced. Some people on here have been climbing twice as long as you've been alive. Maybe in time you will come to respect that some things only come with time. Like the ability to accept you're wrong sometimes.

My god I sound like my dad.

In reply to Sarah Finney:
i'm suggesting that individual students might want to get off there arses and find their own instruction

Or they might be happy learning through climbing with more experienced club members as currently happens. Yes, perhaps this system can result in accidents such as the one forming the basis of this thread but many clubs seem perfectly capable of avoiding such situations through careful planning and common sense.

In reply to Sarah Finney:

*off topic* were you at the Mountain Medicine thing the other night? *on topic again*

In reply to shingsowa: Yes i was right at the back, in the hottest part of the lecture theatre, i nearly passed out by the end!

The welsh ambulance lot were the ones that could be heard giggling loadly whilst cringing at the tape recording of the original call to ambulance control, still trying to figure out which numpty the call taker was!

What did you think of it, you gonna go to the next one?

In reply to Eric the Red:

could you all collectively decide whether i've not been climbing long enough to have an opinion or whether the fact i've been climbing longer than sarah counts for nothing as I haven't been alive as long?


I am sometimes wrong. What I said was personal opinion and what you should carry in the hills is your choice.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

Your own posts contradict each other. You have been far more insulting than I have to you.

What I said was personal opinion and what you should carry in the hills is your choice.

....exactly, of course you are entitled to your opinion

In reply to ChrisHolloway1: However I think Jack said it best :P

"Young and outspoken climber Franco Cookson, who is perhaps best known for his internet ranting as opposed to his actual climbing"

In reply to Franco Cookson: Of course you have an opinion, you're obviously a talented young climber but have had some scary near misses too. With that borne in mind, you know things can go wrong for anyone.

It doesn't matter how long you've been climbing really with regards to this forum topic .... it's about offering practical advice for new comers to the sport on what kit and measures they need to take to ensure they get the most out of their climbing....

Again, what advice would you offer them?

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:


Oh come on, he's quite a bit mellower and more mature than in his earlier incarnations.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: Have an opinion by all means but I think its everyones right to go up on a mountain and kill themselves however they wish.

In reply to Fawksey:

hmmmm , I don't think this girl wanted to go up a mountain to die. She was absolutely terrified. Freezing cold, pitch black, suspected broken leg, help was hours away...

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I'm not talented at all (much to my annoyance) and I used to be quite bold, but no longer after all these experiences.

I'm not that experienced that I'd offer broad advice on an internet forum, but i've done enough winter walking and climbing to know that it isn't essential to carry a bothy and first aid kit everytime you head out climbing. If you'd just accept this point along with the fact that making university clubs have guides for every trip would shut them down, then we can finish this tedious debate.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake and jcm: Surely a univ climbing etc club is primarily Darwinian in nature. That which doesn`t kill you ... I`m sure many of us here have come close to wiping a load of students/ ourselves out on freshers trips - its almost a rite of passage.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

It may not be essential but it is fairly sensible... the whole point of a first aid kit is that it is there just in case...but you don't know when you are going to need it, if you did you wouldn't hurt yourself in the first place.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: Im sure none of us do. Unfortunately you cant legislate against a lack of common sense.

I dont want some legislation imposed that decides if we are fit to go up a hill, or insurance which would then probably be cheaper if you had SPA!

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I witnessed this rescue, and the extremely awkward helicopter winch, though not the accident itself - can we step back from the arguments for a moment and wish this poor girl well please!

Btw - has someone recovered her abandoned sack from the snow-field? I was informed that it was still there yesterday, and this thread has reminded me to try and resolve this...

That's all,

PP.

In reply to ChrisHolloway1: I think youre a bit out of order. Just weighing up your profile and that youre a little over weight (no stranger to the double pudding eh?) Id have a worry that you were the underpants ont he outside type who would end up in an MR team somewhere (somewhere without hills anyway).

In reply to Fawksey:

*like*

In reply to PontiusPirate: I've had an email from one of the people she was out with and she's recovering in hospital.

The Patterdale MR team and the RN Heli team deserve special mention - difficult situation was dealt with quickly - amazing teams doing amazing jobs.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:
>they might be new to winter mountaineering and not told about the risks of going into the certain situations and how to have a good time. Another is: can a simple lesson be built in to the callendar of events within the club to talk about what to put in your pack on trips.

This is all very well. I've asked everyone, and especially the beginners, to come down to the pub 4 days in advance of the trip to check gear, and tell them what they need to bring. I've emailed out a kit list. There is a kit list on the website. I've asked them as they've got on the minibus. They then turn around in the minibus at the Cairngorm car-park with little £1 cotton gloves on, with no over gloves and complain of cold hands.

Sometimes there is only so much a club can do. You can offer opportunities, but if an individual isn't interested, you can't force them to go to that free course, or that lecture.

We try and screen the people going off into winter, but people get through the gaps. As Gob_Stopper said - the winter lectures can encourage people to head off, as they now think they know what they're doing. The good season last Christmas caused a glut of people in our club to claim to know what they were doing, when in fact all they had done was one easy snow gully in the lakes with an equally inexperienced mate.

In reply to Coel Hellier: Not at all.
The univeristy simply emails the executive committee of the club and says "We have £500 we'd like to spend on training some of your members. Can you suggest a mountain guide who would be able to offer some training?"

The university are merely funding the course. They have no further duty of care, it becomes the guides responsibility if they are on his/her course. After training, the responsibility falls to the people whom it would usually, i.e. the exec and university societies officer.

The problem in out club is that the proportion of experienced to inexperienced is too high. We have around 15 leaders who are all excellent hill walkers and can ably lead hill walking groups in all weathers etc. About 10 of those are also capable of leading grade 1 scrambles. Around 5 would be happy leading harder scrambles. Maybe 3 would be happy taking a novice on an easy climb, and only 2 have any proper winter experience. We have over 200 members and routinely take 30-50 people into the hills. There are around 20 people who are all really interested in climbing/winter stuff but the leaders who can accommodate this are often too busy leading other groups, or else there just isn't the time to keep training new leaders.

A guide would input extra training resources, as well as offering far better instruction than a know it all uni student.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:


Universities generally see climbing and mountaineering clubs as nothing but bother and will take a very cautious approach - preferring to have no risk than to manage any risk - you writing to the UNi will most likely just result in the closure of the club which will make it harder for people who want to get the the hills and learn from others to have those experiences. University clubs face particular challenges due to the high turn over of members (not helped by restrictions on non uni students being members) and the relatively limited experince of many members. However they also offer fantastic opportunities to many many people who want to get into the outdoors with like minded people.

if you are serious about this then the BMC are the people to take this too - they are the ones who can provide effective guidence to clubs and universities - and the course that you recommend. Please don't give another university the excuse to do the easiest thing

In reply to Gob_Stopper:


Is that actually a mountaineering club? Not being funny, but manchester is more like 40 people who are competant leaders and many of them are happy on a lot more tricky stuff. Do you really only have 2 people who are happy leading?

To everyone saying student groups should have more qualifications:

Student clubs are adults climbing with their friends. As always in climbing, everyone is responsible for their own actions. The role of clubs is to organize transport and maybe equipment - not to teach or lead groups (which does require qualifications). Obviously some people will be more experienced than others, and hopefully that experience gets passed on - just like when real people go climbing.

Of course some people are inexperienced and reckless, but I think this can be a problem however people start climbing.

If any clubs are being pressured into having requirements for qualifications, The BMC have excellent advice on the subject, which is very worth reading.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Bear in mind numbers of experienced people can fluctuate a lot, especially in smaller clubs. All it takes is for a poor intake of people who know what theyre doing one year and you can be left with a club full of amateurs.

In reply to remus: > (In reply to Franco Cookson).... you can be left with a club full of amateurs.


It'll never happen in manchester. We're all pros.

In reply to Franco Cookson: Good to hear it. It's a pity more clubs arent similar.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Is the 'Best Club in the World' whichever one you are in?

In reply to Franco Cookson: No we're a hill-walking club. But we have a lot of members (10-20%) interested in doing more. Many have a bit of experience but just not enough to make them comfortable taking less experienced people with them.
I know you'll say they should go out and join a climbing/mountaineering club but it isn't quite that simple as many of them don't join the uni mountaineering club because they feel it isn't the right place for them. We only have 2 people with meaningful winter experience. This is probably getting a little to specific an example.

Climbing aside, even hill walking/scrambling instruction would be great for the club but the university aren't really interested in funding us, or the mountaineering club for that matter. To be fair we do get £300 a year but with a turnover of £15000 that doesn't stretch too far.

I think that the universities should perhaps employ guides to act as consultants to their 'outdoor sports' clubs to offer technical training and ensure things are done safely. That doesn't mean being overly meddlesome, but as the clubs do dangerous activities under the university's name I think that would be a good idea. It doesn't need to cost that much per year and students would gain a lot from it.

In reply to Gob_Stopper:

Lets say it's £200 a day to hire a guide to 'offer technical training'. Our club has around 200 members. At a (very) optimistic 10 member per day, that's £4000, and that's before your annual consultancy fee, which would be a lot and not shift liability onto them.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I've been involved with a couple of Uni climbing clubs over the years, of very different characters -

The first was a very active club - ran lots of trips all year round, had significant numbers of fairly experienced members, encouraged novices to come on trips right away - on my second trip I was seconding multi-pitch - only VDiff, but I learnt a huge amount very quickly. It gets people to start leading pretty soon, and keen people make rapid progress through the grades and on to things like winter climbing and fairly serious mountaineering. The club has a fairly impressive list of first ascents too. Now this club also has very little funding from their university - the only club gear is harnesses, belay devices, helmets and some short ropes for indoor walls - all club trips rely on the experienced members having their own kit and sharing with the novices. But there's also very little interference from the university - very few club members have any formal qualifications (other than 1st Aid) and in fact the club doesn't encourage members to spend money on these, though it does encourage people to go on things like the Conville courses.

The second club is very different. The university exerts considerable control, largely on H&S grounds. Quite a few of the members have an SPA, but no-one has anything more than that and so the club is not permitted to climb multi-pitch, so all trips are to the Peak District or to Portland for single-pitch sport climbing. Trips can only take place if there is a committee member on the trip, and at least 2 official trip leaders. (Trip leaders are so designated by a university employee responsible for the sports clubs and are mostly people with an SPA, though sometimes it's based on experience.) At crags, the group has to stay together so the trip leaders can see what's going on, and there's lots of top-roping (my first club never top-roped, and always spread out at crags so as not to annoy other people).

Now ok, the first club has had some accidents, and occasionally nasty ones, but at least it's a real climbing club! The people in the second one aren't really outdoors-y at all - climbing is just a sport like any other to most of them, and when the weather's bad they just stay indoors. (They organise club trips to big indoor walls in winter - I'm not kidding.) As a result, people who arrive at that uni who already climb - have some life experience and that vital common sense that you get as you get older - grad/mature students, post-docs and staff - they don't join the climbing club, they just go climbing with friends or with other grad students etc that they meet there. And so the club never changes - its members don't gain the experience that comes with climbing with people who really know what they're doing. There's virtually never any accidents on club trips, and certainly nothing serious that I know of, but if I heard that people from the second club were planning on doing something outside the official club trips - even something fairly minor like Tryfan - I'd be much more worried than if it were the first club because I know that the university's rules have prevented people from gaining relevant experience within the club.

Anyway, I agree that the accident you describe sounds pretty nasty, and it sounds like it was made worse by the unpreparedness of the people involved, but increased university oversight of clubs isn't always the solution.

In reply anyone:

Is there any reason why universities cant link up with the local climbing club? Im sure teh local climbing club would love teh membership/subs.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: no even going to read the thread...seems a dig at students to me...seen other similar things happen with non-students!

In reply to sebrider: It did come over a bit holier than thou I admit. For balance sakes a member of a mid pennine MR team was airlifted out of the lakes last month with a broken leg.

It can happen to anyone.

In reply to Franco Cookson: You of all people should know about having acidents and the ultimate price that can be payed climbing. To take someone's safety into your own hands is no light undertaking and to flipantly sugest money is a reason to endanger a life is pretty amazing.


"I am sorry Mr and Mrs X that your daughter is now dead of a head injury, we didnt really know what we were doing , gave incorrect advice and put your loved daughter in a situation that killed her."

This is basicaly the coroners outcome of an accident that occured in parsley-fearn gully a number of years ago. I believe the BMC produced a film about the incident

In reply to muppetfilter:

When did I say people should go to the hills without knowing what they're doing?

In reply to muppetfilter: I think that unfair too. Anyone contemplating keeping goldfish, heading up a mountain, embarking on anal sex with a man from sub Saharan Africa should do a little research first and equipe themnselves with the relevant knoledge and equipment necessary.

You dont have to be a icthiologist to know that taking a goldfish from a bowl at room temp and sticking it in the sink with water from the tap full of chlorine at 6 deg C aint gonna stress it to blazes, give it white spot and possibly kill it.

You wouldnt get taken up the ass by an African without a condom and lube so why would you get taken up an icy gully by a relative stranger without the proper equipment.


BMC statement et al.

Thanks for everyone's input, on what is clearly an emotive and fammable subject!

Thankfully, the girl is recovering in hospital and from what I can gather the group are all dealing with what happened and reflecting on the events. Instead of a letter to the uni, I've got some contact details from various parties, trusts and organisations via this forum and some messages sent to me and I shall pass them on to those concerned.

Best wishes to all.

In reply to sebrider: amen seb, but when did we ever have any problems other than the odd mushed minibus?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: I am currently a member of a university club and we direct all new comers to our website for all necessary equipment for winter mountaineering. We supply the basic kit i.e. helmet, crampons and axes etc. The issue we mainly have is that our club is transparent and we only have a few solid members so it isn't feasible for the majority to acquire all the kit.

But the issue that you bring up regarding kit is so serious that it not only puts themselves in danger but the whole group in danger so for those who repeatedly say to themselves,'You are your own responsibility' are extremely envy.

I have had a foreign student turn up with a north face jacket on and a pair of jeans when we were climbing in the Black Cuillins and recently in Torridon a guy wearing a pair of Karrimor trainers.

It just is not expectable for students to turn up without the correct gear and be excused as "They are resposible, since they are adults" by 999thAndy. Thats why students are the highest risk groups because of this envy frame of mind!

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Erm .. this bit (amonst a whole host of others)

I am amazed at how much logbook time has to go into the winter ML and MIC when aparently two winters of experience qualifies you to lead a group in winter mountain activities as a Uni club member.

In reply to Fawksey: However if someone says... Get on those ropes I rigged.... you trust them, it is actualy about duty of care. I screw up and kill someone im supervisin I will be criminaly liable and will be prosecuted.
If someone organises an activity for others with less experience who dont know any better they take on if nothing else a moral obligation to safeguard the people they lead.Accidents dont just hapen

In reply to muppetfilter:

It's informed consent, right? Accidents do just happen, it's why they're called accidents. Also, negligence happens. In bit in between is the big gray area that courts spend most of their time figuring out.

Nobody, in a university setting, should be claiming they are guiding / leading people in whatever activity they are doing. However, it is perfectly acceptable to say 'I've got a bit of experience, if you're happy with that, then come with me.'. As the courts have shown time and again, this informed consent - between adults(!!!) - is just fine.

The BMC are very clear on this, I recall in-depth lectures on this at the conference they (used to?) run at PyB for committee members of uni clubs.

In reply to muppetfilter: ok. you may ahve apoint. Though I would give a once over to any system youd rigged but then again I would expect a certain level of competence and I would trust that you had that unquestioning, Even though I know of one firm employing people with fictitious IRATA logbooks to enable an employee to take a higher level.

In reply to James Jackson: Incidents/accidents generaly have a route cause and that in a lot of cases is down to poor risk assesment. As you are aware a risk assesment encompases in this area of concern terain, leaders experience, weather, equipment, party experience, equipment, clothing.
To simply say 'I've got a bit of experience, if you're happy with that, then come with me. I would say falls short of the obligation to safeguard the less experienced individual. Its not about a court of law but wether you could live your life James knowing you did something that killed someone?

Could you live with that James ?

In reply to muppetfilter:

You're comparing apples and oranges. Accidents do not have a root course, that's the point. Other incidents indeed do. It's bloody hard to prove that something is accident or negligent.

Anyway, that side-show discussion aside, yes I would happily live with myself if I did something that ended up fatally. Why? Because I consider myself a sensible individual, who understands risk and the control of risk, and will communicate willingly to others the dangers and relative experience of what's going on. Sometimes people don't understand this, even when it's made clear (I've seen this), and in these cases I've refused to go on the hill with people.

I also understand that what we do is dangerous. I've got friends who are either dead or broken as a result of climbing accidents. I have friends who are either dead or broken as a result of riding accidents. Luckily, I've never ended up dead or seriously broken as a result of either, but I know full well if I get on a climb / route it could end badly. If I get on a horse, it could end badly (galloping at a solid cross-country fence at 30 Mph is good fun, if a little on a necky side), but that's partly why we do it.

How I can live with it is that I understand the risks, I communicate the risks, and I can make a decent judgment on whether the other party actually understands what I'm saying. I would wager that I have never done anything when in this informed consent role that would be negligent. What that leaves is objective danger, and one can not make that go away. Of course, as you say, risk assessment can lead to routes that have less objective danger, and those should be chosen to begin with. However, people need to see danger to be able to appreciate danger, so a staged introduction under the remit of understanding others' understanding of the risks is essential.

Otherwise we'd all go top roping, anchored to a tree, anchored to a JCB, with new gear every day.

In reply to muppetfilter: ok. 6 people on a mountain in winter, We can at least say that there is no one there with the ability to say that the group hasnt the equipment or knowledge or ability to be there. If there was they wouldnt be there.

What do you do about that? I dont want and I dont know how you legislate against that?

Ive taken people caving and Ive never considered the legalities as Ive known that Ive done everything practicle to ensure their safety and nothing Im going to do will endanger them (or anything I dont do). I have no qualification to do this but i know Im capable of defending any accusation.

In reply to Fawksey:

Bingo!

In reply to Sarah Finney:



For chuffs sake. You are completely disregarding a veritable ocean of enthusiastic, well-informed, experienced people who are perfectly adequately imparting their huge knowledge base on to the next generation. Because someone doesn't hold a qualification does not mean they are incapable of passing on their skills and that their skill set is not valid. Use your common sense. If someone has been climbing respectable trad routes week in week out for years, it is usually safe to assume they know what they are talking about.

What do I care anyway, its your loss.

In reply to funsized:

Yes, I learned to lead climb from very unqualified people. They happen to be my parents.

In reply to funsized: me to. Mates who later became MR members who later brought me into it.

Climbed with climbers with no certificates. Caved with Cavers with no certificates. These climbers and cavers are now members of MR, members of CRO, are policemen, Ambulanace technicians and Paramedics. Non of them have an SPA or ML.

In reply to Fawksey:

It's an important point. I have friends who are MIAs / MICs / Guides - would I climb with them? Oh yes. I also have friends who have no qualifications, but are very experienced mountaineers / climbers. Would I climb with them? Oh yes!

The point is, I could always recognise if somebody was bullshitting - I'm not stupid - and I sure as hell wouldn't go on the hill with an idiot.

In reply to James Jackson:
"However, people need to see danger to be able to appreciate danger, so a staged introduction under the remit of understanding others' understanding of the risks is essential."

I do feel you are wrong here, we are talking about groups of young people, some being taken into the hills for the first time in their lives. Many dont understand the real dangers and wouldnt recognise one if it bit them on the arse. If you feel people need to see and experience danger and risk then you fail to grasp all the outdoors has to offer.For many the real risk is hypothermia or an un arrested slip on an easy path (snowdon casualties) If you believe that you could easily walk away from an acident you caused is a sentiment I hope you never have to explore.

To fawksey, we arent talking about 6 equal individuals we are talking about an organised sanctioned trip.As for your caving ventures I would suggest that your hundreds of hours experience means that you have seen every conceivable obstacle you encounter a number of times . This I would argue is exactly the same as a competent qualified winter leader with an apropriate qualification like an MIC or Winter ML not a student comittee member with a only few winter weekends under their belts.

In reply to muppetfilter:


They are adults. Don't patronise them!


A complete (deliberate?) misunderstanding of what I said. Did you notice that I said I communicate risk, and assess if I believe those I'm communicating it to have understood what's being said?


Yes, and this could happen to you. Your point is what, exactly?


Where did I say I would walk away from it? "Oh shit, look what's happened, let's run away!". I said I would be happy in what I did leading up to it - accident is ACCIDENT. Not negligence. If I were negligent, then I would expect to be dragged over the coals for it.


You appear to be making the assumption that all committee members only have a small bit of experience under their belts. Wrong!

In reply to James Jackson: Well Im one of the biggest idiots going but on the hill Ive a nose for when somethings wrong.

I really dont know what you can do about inexperienced climbers/walkers/mountaineers in then hills without causing a whole heap of trouble for anyone else. Sarah's heart was in the right place though Im sure liek most of us in retrospect she may ahve wished she had approached it differently, though that shouldnt be held against her.

But the same should be said about Franco. His ability and experience at such a young age counts for a lot. Id trust him way beyond a fat knacker with a SPA ticket.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: The SPA crew represent everything that is wrong with climbing to me

In reply to Rob15:

I'll take my SPA and shove it up my arse then. That said, I didn't take mine having only got 3 days lead experience and a scout badge to my credit.

In reply to Rob15: Is that Brampton near Carlisle?

In reply to James Jackson: ok. Non of us want people peeling off and smashing themselves on rocks. What, how do we do anything about it?

1. without appointing anyone to police the hills.
2, without having compulsory insurance that requires a level of competency.

OK we all must agree that what they need is education yes?
Then how do they get it and how is it paid for?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: I think the issue some of you are neglecting here is that whilst some students ARE very qualified, qualified enough to teach regardless of whether they hold an instructional certificate, there are also a huge number of teenagers (after all many uni members ARE that age) who think they are entirely invincible, inept at judging others capabilities, bad at being unselfish and toning down their dasy aspirations to suit those of the weakest member of a party and generally behaving in a sensible fashion when it comes to other peoples safety. I know because I was once young, rash, irresponsible and selfish. I got away with it and slowly matured and grew up, but I doubt that I'm the only one.

Franco, I think to some extent you're arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm glad about a lot of what you're saying as I remember the rants of yesteryear, when you would have been telling us to all shove it up our arses. However you do still seem to think that climbing hard and falling off stuff makes you experienced. Yes, it means you are a very capable climber - that much is patently obvious but it does seem your ego still drives you quite a bit. I would suggest that when combined with others safety its a highly dangerous mix. I don't want to be patronising or meanspirited but just think about it - a beginners needs are not to climb the hardest, or to climb without a bivi or be able to brag about their epics - that comes later. Its actually to get out in the hills and enjoy what they're doing, come back safely and lastly learn something - in more or less that order.

It worries me that even as a safety sec you think that group shelters and first aid kits are unnecessary... in a situation in which you are responsible for another persons safety, if there is a chance that you may need shelter in a medical emergency, both items will be necessary and if you don't have them then YOU will be responsible. If you don't take them when climbing with your mates, that is one thing, but beginners are effectively your clients so if I were you I'd treat them as such.

You cite climbing grade VII's with beginners - Really? Personally if you are I'd say your idea of what a begginner is is slightly warped. I doubt anybody who has never put crampons on would get up a VII. In which case even if you're leading a IV or V, is a small safety kit really going to affect your performance - you are a tiger remember

In reply to mike kann:

To be fair to Franco he did say that when he is with inexperienced people he would consider taking a group shelter and that he does carry a first aid kit. It is only with a group of sufficiently experienced people that he says he may not bother with a group shelter and in that situation it is surely a decision that each experienced member of the party should be making for themselves.


He had worn crampons once before.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

Tried to read the thread. Very much a yawnfest.

Not sure where this impression of the union "allowing" clubs to go off on trips. It doesn't really work like that. We decide where we're going, we book transport through the union and as of now we let the union know before we go away what level of experience each of the people on the trip has.

We're lucky enough to have access to the (very rubbish but serviceable) university climbing wall. It gives us an opportunity to check up on people before they head out onto multipitch stuff etc and teach them how to abseil and such.

However there are very few people doing the teaching who are officially qualified. We're qualified by the experience we've gained on the rock. In some cases this is extensive and when you compare it to the stuff learnt on an SPA award the SPA looks meagre indeed. In fact it is only really at MIA standard that you would be officially qualified to do all the stuff that we get up to. I'd hazard a guess there are very few student MIAs about.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

You must remember being a novice and first starting out? And I cant believe your the safety sec!

In reply to mike kann:

Last year I finally gave up as a Uni club official, including at least one scottish winter week every year. 20 years was maybe a little too long in a student club. Why did I give up? The strain of constantly introducing new climbers is very significant, especially in winter climbing (I've seen too many accidents by people who wont listen, mostly outside my club though). Interference from the Uni was getting out-of-hand: the reasons were well meaning but wrong-headed often increasing risk and liability. Every year I had to work harder for less climbing gain whilst I was busier and busier in my life outside the club. On the positive side I enjoyed a shared volunteer based lifestyle with my wife, helped to develop 'wet behind the ears' youth into great climbers, climbed with some of the most amazing folk in the world (Cubby maybe tops the list), had many wonderful experiences away from the cliffs.


My advice:

Don't attach blame on threads like this: the truth of accidents can be very different from appearances and even if its not, its cruel to apportion this while folks are in hospital.

Run your Uni club following BMC advice, use their training (and affiliated Conville training) and phone them if you have problems that are not covered in their info.

For club winter trips, people without the right kit should not be allowed to go; sounds tough but we learnt from bad experience (plus take spare kit!). Use trained staff to provide basic winter safety lessons to beginners, partly as it takes a lot of pressure off the club climbers who can then concentrate on improvers; if people cant afford this they probably cant afford to winter climb in the student club. Take great care with gung-ho members on winter trips: its fine for them to push themselves when they are on their own trips or with equally experienced partners but not on club trips with beginners in tow. Encourage flexibilty of route choice based on changing weather and avalanche awareness: the next door Grade IV ridge may be safer than your target III gully when you arrive at the base. Despite this, use route cards filled in before a days climbing with likely routes and alternatives, shell clothing colour etc... very useful in the case of an accident when info is unclear. Gaining breadth of knowledge is better than chasing grades: winter grades can be notoriously unreliable; retreat is not shameful. Run a fun closing event with joke prizes purchased by the winners with donations to mountain rescue.

Don't worry too much about gaining qualifications unless you want these for your own development: try to resist the Uni if it insists (the BMC can help here). The majority of climbing in a student club has to be self contained without qualified members. On the other hand our club found targeted use of instructors and guides (even trainees) can be very positive, especially those who you know or come recommended.

Specific kit came issues came up on this thread... bothy bags, large first aid kits and other ancillary safety kit can seem initially attractive for climbing days but light-and-fast often cuts risk in winter. Carrying too much safety kit means you may end up significantly increasing the chance of using it!

I do see a real problem in this area. A few years ago I ran the caving club for my university and was very frustrated at the complete lack of understanding shown by the athletics union. Trying to talk to them about problems was like banging your head against a brick wall.
The main problem we faced was that of keeping experienced past members in the club. According to club constitution (dictated by the union) only students were allowed to be members of the club and were allowed to cave with the club. This caused no end of problems and the only way around it was to go against the constitution and uni regulations. This made the trips safer. I'm now in the position of being a past student and although I do still occasionally help out I feel uncomfortable doing so, as I will be in the shit if something happens whilst I am there. There isn't currently the experience in the club to safely do most trips.
Sadly I see the only way the union will listen is in the event of a serious accident, which will be too late.

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:

To Flaneur,

Sorry bud, I was out of line there.

Chris

In reply to Franco Cookson:

If you were trying to get every member of the club trained then that would be true. In reality getting 20 people 2 days of training would improve the knowledge and skills base in a club our size immensely. They can pass on what they have learnt and be much better leaders as a consequence.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

if it was an organised trip then the club may have a legal obligation to inform the university with regards to reporting of accidents and near misses for the hse, that is their legal team and hse people that will make this decision not the club.

the uni provided the equipment hopefully inspected to ensure it wasn't defective, and transport

if it is a reportable incident to hse then you are committing a criminal offence by not reporting it, what if it does get reported to hse by anyone else and it is a reportable incident. the police turn up for the equipment for an investigation on behalf of the hse as a fall from height. someone will probably be read a caution at some point if this is the case.

oh the uni will be thrilled..

also insurers should someone need to make a claim in the future, yes they will go nuts but at the moment they may be more amenable than if the incident is not reported and they find out later during a police investgation. lecturers climb too and have friends that climb,im sure there is probably a climber or 2 at the hse...

In reply to Gob_Stopper:


I'm not a legal expert but I really don't think it's that simple. If the university starts taking a supervisory role in the climbing (which it is doing by hiring a guide for you), then it can't just wash its hands of responsibility the week after. Further, re your last sentence, the club officers are *not* responsible for supervising and leading others, they are not qualified to do so! A university could thus not just hand over responsibility to them after a training period. Thus a climbing club (and university clubs are no different) are collections of peers with each adult taking responsibility for themselves.

In reply to Gob_Stopper:


Be realistic here. You are hiring professional guides as consultants. What are they going to say? They're going to say that all top-roping must be supervised by an SPA with no more than 5 students per SPA, and that any lead climbing must be supervised by an MIA with no more than 2 students per MIA, etcetera.

Afterall, the consultants would have to say that, otherwise *they* would be being professionally negligent. If you want an introduction to climbing where a qualified professional oversees your safety then fine, but it'll cost a commercial amount of money. And that is unrealistic for a student club.

In reply to Gob_Stopper:

You are repeatedly going on about getting professionals to train up your members. Are you a BMC affiliated club? If so, make use of the services they offer - training budgets, the Student Seminar at PyB, Conville courses etc. If not, then start thinking about it. They really are helpful people, and I have repeatedly used them when trying to counter absurd rules imposed by the union on the climbing club.

In reply to mike kann:

I know our club is very proffessional, with many members who go out of their way to help others, even at the expense of their day's climbing. I do this to some extent, but others are even more giving- our president recently drove a team to the lakes and back and lead no routes at all, instead helping others. Please don't try and make out people running clubs are fed by ego, it really isnt true.


I take offence that you think my personal qualities endanger the club. I hold my judgement in high regard and haven't had any close shaves whilst in a club situation. I previously said in this thread that I would take a bothy if walking with beginners and I would preferably not take totally inexperienced people into the hills. This is club policy:

"For a large inexperienced walking/scrambling party like this i would agree (that it is essential to take a bothy), for a small group of mainly experienced mixed climbers it isn't."



The opposite of what is true. I actually said i've started to carry a first aid kit since I became safety sec.

You said- "If you don't take them when climbing with your mates, that is one thing, but beginners are effectively your clients so if I were you I'd treat them as such."

That is not how university clubs work. Whilst informally I will act in a far more proffesional manor whilst with the club, I am under no obligation to do so and they definitely aren't my 'clients'.



That is true. The guy had never been winter climbing before, but had done a fair bit of rock climbing. Perfectly safe, with 3 point belays all the way. Just goes to show that some people still have the spirit of adventure to committ to getting on a hard route as their first route if they know they're going to be safe (which he did know, as he knows how I climb).

In reply to mike kann:


This is to misunderstand the situation. In effect he *is* just going climbing with a group of mates. That's how climbing clubs work. He is not leading "clients" whom he is legally responsible for. Climbing clubs could not operate except on that basis (see BMC guidelines).

So he might have been appointed "safety officer" by his peers (in the way that a group of mates playing cricket in the park might appoint one of themselves umpire), but that does not change the basic point that a climbing club is a collection of peers, each choosing to participate and taking responsibility for themselves.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Finally some sense. These are FACTS. It is not viable to seek proffesional training.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

I joined Huddersfield Poly climbing club, and was largely 'self taught'. I did do some winter climbing with a more experienced climber, but nobody gave me (or anyone else) tutition in climbing or winter mountaineering, other than showing me how to set a bearing. I didn't join the club to learn to climb, I joined the club to climb with people like me (or slightly better climbers than me)

In reply to jnymtch:


No, most likely a uni would *not* get into the business of inspecting equipment. They are *not* running a professional climbing-instruction course.


FFS, do you *really* want climbing situations to become supervised by the hse?? As I understand it that would currently only be the case if there was some paid professional involved, in other words they apply to employment situations, not to what a group of mates get up to in their spare time.

Surely the vast majority of us want climbing and climbing clubs to remain an activity that is not regulated and supervised by the outside world of rules and lawyers?

In reply to Coel Hellier:

I do agree with you Coel, but my experience is that an official trip run by a student union club does indeed fall under the auspices of the HSE if we are booking transport through the union. We have to report accidents to them. Whether or not this is the correct position I am unsure, but we just don't have the clout to argue. The BMC have definitely been helpful in this respect but the union lawyers won't budge on certain aspects, such as that the nominal trip leader is responsible for the safe running of the trip and we do have to get our kit checked over annually (even though, as the BMC point out, this is no guarantee at all). To keep the club running we have to comply with the rules. On the upside, we do get a reasonable running budget each year.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: In my time at Sheffield uni, the club there (HPC) offered subsidised winter training (compulsory for those inexperienced in winter) with MICs. Experienced members had to submit an experienced form to said MICs before being signed off by them as competent. This was only the case for winter I should probably add, and I imagine it is still the case.

Anyone saying it's impractical take note - at least one club does it.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: A useful life skill is deciding if individuals are bullshttng twts - ie Risk Assessing an individual - it is generally not a good idea to entrust your life to these people. Young people these days are losing these skills unfortunately.

In reply to Monk:


I expect that this is a fairly grey area legally, that hasn't been tested much by suits. I don't know of any case where a novice has sued a uni after an accident, but it'd be interesting to know what would happen.

Seems I was wrong in thinking this was a troll but the original post did have many of the characteristics of an anti university climbing club thread.

Maybe its because my experience of university clubs is a bit dated but I find some of the ideas being pushed (such as involving the HSE, obligation to use qualified personnel, the need for guides, etc) fairly ridiculous. As has been said by many, student clubs are no different to others and are just groups of friends getting together to climb/walk. In the past I've been involved with 3 student clubs as a member & a few others as a guest. None of them ever employed anyone, although in 2 cases the university sports dept ran courses in hill walking and rock climbing which helped a lot. One of the clubs was English, and could have been accused of being elitist in as much as little effort was made to cater for beginners and it was pretty much sink or swim for any real beginners who joined (most members had already climbed before coming to uni. The other 2 were Scottish & made more efforts to cater for beginners but most club meets were just a means of getting transport to the hills/crags

In reply to James Jackson: I'm lost, can someone in 2 sentences summarise why the hell the SPA is relevant to a situation where someone has an accident in the mountains in winter...

In reply to Offwidth:

The most sensible advice I've seen on this thread - well worth repeating.

In reply to IainRUK:

It's not, and I didn't say it was.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

All sensible stuff. There really has to be some realism as to the limited extent to which any university club (or any other club) can express any duty of care over inexperienced members.

There seems to have been a gradual shift towards a more 'professional' outlook from these clubs - 'safety officer' and the like. But it's a veneer of professionalism, limited by the experience of more established members and their willingness to oversee activities.

Sure it's desirable to mitigate risk by offering advice and partners to new members, but to suggest that anything more structured could be effective within a club made up primarily of young, inexperienced, climbers creates an illusion.

New members need to be made aware pretty sharply that while they may learn skills by tagging along on club trips, a large share of responsibility for their personal safety falls to them. This is particularly true in the mountains in winter, where personal judgement about objective hazards is critical.

When I was younger, I learned fairly quickly that while risk during rock climbing activities was far easier to manage, moving into snow and ice activities, and Alpine situations involved a lot more personal responsibility and commitment.

In reply to James Jackson: Not you it's just been discussed at length throughout this thread when its relevance is precisely eff all...

In reply to IainRUK: I think Iain they just came into it as some peoples qualification to comment.

In reply to Will Legon:


Start from the idea that some people who are students will climb. Now impose the rule that any club facilitating that needs to have qualified leaders. Those leaders will need several years experience to gain some of those qualifications. Students are, in general young and in the club for a few years only. Very very few will have the experience or time needed to gain that experience before they graduate and leave, fewer still the funds or motivation. What happens?

You end up with a stifled dead club. Nothing else changes, most of those aspiring-climber students will self organise outside the club structure (and without expensive individual BMC membership) then climb anyway. At 'best' the group becomes less inclusive, 'training' (in whatever form it takes) becomes harder to access for those starting out. Some of those climbers will have accidents. That's life, they're adults, some of them will make good decisions, some will make poor ones, some will just get unlucky as may you or I.

Qualifications are all well and good but compulsory qualifications don't work in a student club environment. Imposing the requirement for qualified leaders drives the club apart (where hired group leaders are required) or drives the experienced members away (where they're leaned upon to provide unpaid guide services week in week out with all the responsibility that entails).

By and large students are adults, they're responsible for their own decisions.

jk
(a former uni club president)

In reply to Rob15:

Hi Rob,

When I was your age I really couldn't see there was anything wrong with climbing. I thought it was all brilliant and for that matter, I still do. Why so jaded already?

As for the SPA, it does a pretty good job of fulfilling its market need. If you need to hire someone to supervise a top roping session, then hiring a SPA is a fairly safe option and you have demonstrated due diligence. If you need a climbing instructor with broader skills, then many SPAs will certainly not fit the bill. However, some may. That is why MLT say that all their awards should be viewed in the context of the holders past & current log book evidence and point out the four measures of competence to instruct.

In reply to Sarah Finney:


Well I'm 18 years older than you and have been climbing for almost 20 years, and I agree with Franco regarding learning from your peers versus paying for courses. I expect someone else older and more than experienced than me will disagree with me, which just shows that "I'm older than you and therefore wiser" is a poor way to justify your opinions

In reply to Sarah Finney: He's also a far more experienced climber than you are, so age isn't a factor. SPA isn't in the slightest bit relevant here.

In reply to Gaz lord: Haha, I remember that...about 5pm, at least 2 bus loads worth of students to get off Dartmoor and P.J. thinks this would be a good time to make alterations to perfectly functional bus! Aye we did okay; think I have a few more grey hairs as a result...nothing to do with the aging process of course!

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:
sorry for not taking time to reply yet. Theres a few things I would like to pick up on
First of all having chatted to a few students on the issue, every single one comes down on the side of franco. I will try my best to explain why
Qualifications:SPA and Ml qualifications which ever way you look at them can be earned by people with no real knowledge about climbing or winter conditions. For intance there are people with SPA who have no idea, its not odd for me to go to almscliff and be shocked for the belays they have set up i.e missing the obvious bits of good gear and putting in marginal bits in the rock instead. I remember once this september seeing that some people had set up a belay with one good piece and one terrible piece, I thought they were just novices with no clue so I bumbled down to the bottom of low-man to have a quiet word as personally If I had set up a belay like that I would appreciate the odd tip or two. Just before I opened my mouth I realised they were actually being suprevised by one of the local wall instructors. Rather suprised I dissapeered to carry on with my afternoons soloing, better than embarassing him with his clients. Being an SPA holder and Ml trained, I don't think its unfair to say that I wouldn't expect anyone with these awards to some how magically be competent at winter climbing. To have both of these you only actually need(you may struggle to pass the awards but still ...) 40 single pitch leads(15ish at severe) and 40 days out walking in the mountains. No offence to any dual holders of those awards but expecting them to arrange anything other than a jolly summer hike in good conditions or top-roping at stanage is in my opinon completley barmy unless they have other experience.
Particuarly for student clubs this a constant request of our unions that we have people with qualifications to take people out in the mountains which would mean MIA(summer rock) or the MIC(winter)(accepting that ML/SPA holders cant do anything beyond there remit without having untested experience) ultimately you can't even start the MIA scheme till your 21 which even if you did manage to start the training on your birthday and follow it up with the assessment a year later after the minimum one year consolidation experience would mean the youngest you can be before you get the MIA realisticly is 22(Most students will have left/be leaving uni by this age). So this leaves student mountaineering clubs in an intresting position do they a)have noone with the higher awards and only go top-roping/ hill-walking or b(reality))people without the required qualifications but ok amounts of experience teach others their skills or even occasionaly(myself included) c)people with limited experience but have read up/been passed on bits of info go out with someone of similar experience level and try learn the skills by doing them.
Of course in the main student clubs exist in stage b however particuarlly when there is a lack of skill sets in the club what can happens is example c, this particuarlly happens in C when lots of people want to go winter climbing but very few have the experience to teach others. The majority of the time example c happens noone actually gets hurt, maybe they do get a bit scared and something which could have gone the other way happens but overall they survive to tell the tale. Very rarely it does go tits up and by the sound of it what you observed happened.

Now we can all read this example and go yah yah, ban the club blah blah chat to there union blah blah, and maybe for a change one uni club in London will actually sort itself or probably it will get banned/not be allowed to run winter trips, but in four weeks time what will happen is there will be another shock horror winter climbing story from another part of the country of uni/youth climbers nearly killing themselves/being airlifted off/being loud at crag/doing an out of condition route/wearing the wrong colour helmet etc.
Personally I would say we need to seriously think about how we can change the bigger picture not just one University, what I think everyone has missed was the point raised I believe by Gobstopper. That those training for their MIA/MIC get there experience taking out people in the age range 16-25 for instance university students/6thformers or those who have gone out of school and into the world of work. To my way of thinking these makes logical sense as here are the people who on average are a)the poorest and b)will be in the sport for the longest amount of time to give these skills back. I appreciate some mia/mic holder will probably come on here and say that they disagree and that they make half their money in a year off students. Ultimately MIA/MICS trianees have to teach someone to gain the mandatory experience to pass the award. Realisticly teaching the people who have the smallest amount of money to afford teaching courses will overall result in the smallest loss of bussiness for the sector as a whole. Also surely it would not be impossible for an MIC holder to run a student winter skills session with 4 students on it,2 of which he takes out and the other two taken out by an mic trainee under remote supervision(something I believe ami passed at its last agm???). Meaning he can offer much cheaper courses whilst still earning the same and probably generate more buissness due to the lower cost of courses.
I would be very intrested in hearing peoples thoughts on this and as myself/tom bell are currently representing student clubs on the club committie(until we can elect someone democratically, currently planning on doing this in september). I will contact mltuk and ami to gague there opinon on this in the next few days. Ideally perhaps we could set up links between a group of 3-4 mia/mics trainees with a group of 3-4 uni groups where one mia/mic trainee says they are looking for novices on these dates and then ideally students reply and say they can do thOse dates. If any MIA/MIC trainees are reading this and are looking for novices at the moment to take out message js08er@leeds.ac.uk as I can also try and hook you up with people from the leeds uni club/failing that other clubs who I have friends at.
Expecting some replies+sorry for the lack of grammer/spelling ability/not re-reading my own post completely!
Ewan

In reply to IainRUK:

I think SPA has come into it as this has become more of a general university climbing/mountaineering club debate, rather than speciffically a university climbing/mountaineering club in the winter debate.

My grammers crap so you can probably put a full stop in the middle there to make it two sentences if you want!

In reply to Toreador:
"I'm older than you and therefore wiser" is a poor way to justify your opinions

How about "My thermos flask is older than you" which in Mr Cookson's case is true.

If you are learning off peers there can be a problem with limited skill's to transfer and also bad habits.An old lecturer of mine reckoned he could sometimes tell which Uni someone came from by how they set up a belay... To an extent this has been adressed by of all things the internet opening up hundreds of videos to novices (then again not all are good advice) The internet is not however a good substitute to the thousands of hours of experience that the gouverning bodies deem necessary to constitute the experience to lead groups in the potentialy hazardous environment of mountainous areas in winter.

In reply to James Jackson:

I disagree, unless you have actually been in a situation where someone with you has died (apoligese if you have), you can list the reasons why you think you would be able to live with it and carry on with life regardless, but the reality is none of us can possibly know that unless we are put in that situation...some people would cope and some people would be plauged with a life time of PTSD...i don't think you can say with as much certainty as you do which one it would be.

In reply to The third:

A good reply, and great to see that this thread is actually spawning some useful thinking (i.e. using trainee MIAs).

I think that one further factor that influences the level of experience in uni clubs is that, as is clear by many posts on this thread, it is often expected for more experienced members to take out those less experienced. This means that experienced people end up operating on easy ground, which may not be what they are after. Not only that, but it also means that those members are not 'out there' gaining further experience, as they must be operating within their comfort zones. For this reason, clubs with a high level of novices tend not to attract more experienced members as they find a partner and do their own thing. I have been on several trips where I have spent most of my time setting up ropes and doing easy routes. Sometimes I am more than happy to do that, but other times it can feel a bit limiting and frustrating. Clubs do have a role as trainers, but they should also be a place for like-minded people to meet and gain experience.

In reply to James Jackson:

I also climb with a range of people who are SPA, MIA, MR, mountain medicine doctors, RAT, and non of the above. I to can recognise someone bullshiting me, unfortunatley i was in that situation in the summer...not nice and knocked my confidence for a while after, but because of the experience i already have, i was able to look after myself in that situation, and all ended ok.

But a fresher who has never climbed outside before won't necesarrily be able to make that judgement, or be able to look after them self when i does start to go wrong.

On the occasions when i experienced and sensible student, who has some natural ability to teach his skills to others, then it is all good...but that isn't the case in many incidences and people end up dead, injured, or just put off climbing and the outdoors for life.

In reply to muppetfilter:

True. And just as true outside universities. Should all climbers and walkers pay for a load of courses before venturing out?

In reply to Sarah Finney: what do you think should be done about it Sarah?

In reply to The third: Agree with the part of you post about using trainee MIA/MIC, but i have been shouted down for suggesting that on here by many 'student aged' posters!

There arguments against being that it crazy to use a MIA that i don't know and better to use an unqualified member of the uni club.

The point i think the are missing is that to be a trainee MIA, the individual must already be a experienced SPA and ML, + have done the MIA training course...to be an MIC they must be an SPA, ML, ML(w), MIA (am i right?) and have done the MIC course.

I know who i'd choose to trust... and it's free to go out and give your time up to allow these people to practice for the qualification thatv they are working for!

In reply to Toreador: How much value do we put on human life ... Having witnessed and dealt with a 70ft ground fall this year I personaly dont think you can argue money over training. A day with an MIC costs what ? probably less than will be spent on booze and chips on a weekends trip.

The cost in time and money to the RAF and NHS not to mention the valuable time and energy given by MRT volunteers is worth considering.

In reply to muppetfilter:

We should also all stop driving cars, as they crash. We should all stop eating olives, as they get stuck in throats and choke us. We should all stop...

In reply to muppetfilter:

I dont agree with any of that.

In reply to Fawksey:

Think i've covered that in previous posts (lots of them, i'm poorly and bored!) but more than happy to summarise for you...

As i said before if i was becky i would write to the uni (controversial i know), but...this individual case can then be looked into by the uni as an unfortunate incident and the climbing club involved can be encouraged to make changes...I think although this is unpopular it is important, because if the next incident is a fatality then it would be alot more than the uni finding out about it and investigating it, and the involvement of the coroner and the HSE could have a much more negative impact on uni climbing clubs in the future.

As far as teaching climbing goes, i know it's difficult because of the time frames involved with getting qualifications and the cost of getting professional training, but i think students should be actively encouraged to seek out professional training, the cheapest way i've found of doing this is through offering my time up to trainee MIA's who need to practice/log hours. I think this is particularly important for people learning skills like lead climbing and winter mountaineering.

I appreciate that very experienced climbers get wound up by inexpereinced SPA's giving opinions on things, but i think doing the course does not make me any better at taking a friend out for free to show them how to lead than an experienced but unqualified climber doing the same, but it gives me more of an idea of why i shouldn't do it. I realise that it can be just as dangerous to ommit something as it can be to teach something incorrectly...also the importance of having someone qualified and experience (MIA) to jummar next to you and check and give feedback on gear placement...that way the first time you find out whether a placement is good or bad is not when you fall on it.

As we both now (i seem to remember your a paramedic) young adults will always go and take risks and push the limits, but that's what people do at that age, i think uni clubs need to be encouraged to operate in a way that acknowledges that climbing is extremely risky but educates it's members in how to reduce that risk, by encouraging them to seek professional training, and possibly by arranging union events with outside speakers (therefore not affecting the clubs duty of care) from MR teams (may not work in London, i know!). I am told (don't know how true) that due to the shear number of incidents involving Bangor uni students, that Oggie MR offerend to run a day for them to teach them safety issues in the mountains with team members giving up there own time to do it, and the club didn't take them up on the offer!!

In reply to Fawksey:

I've had it on good authority that a Heli hour is £30k. (although I'm not an expert so don't know for sure)

The heli on Sat night was in the air for 2.5 hours.

In reply to Sarah Finney:
I think Sarah with the greatest respect that most students who read your post believe that you are basically saying students should pay to use an MIA/MIC for all training, most students seriously lack funds to do much (Particually just after they have bought there first pair of winter boots, axes and crampons which can easily be £500+). I appreciate I am suggesting a link between mia/mic trainees with uni/youth clubs, that however does not mean it actually happens, in reality it is very rare and usually on a small ad hoc basis. Currently if students wants to be taught winter skills they have the option of a) forking out £100+ for a weekend(probably more), b)being shown up a route by people who have at least had a couple days out winter climbing or what I did personally and what quite a few people in the leeds uni club have done c)Go out with a mate with good knowledge of multi pitch trad climbing and little/no knowledge of winter and teach yourself having read books/talked to more experienced members or finally the one which no student ever does d)wait a year or more until you have the funds to afford a course.
I think you seem to erroneously believe that it is possible to access winter skills course for free/little money. Where as in reality most students/youth of today teach each other winter skills/teach themselves.

Also just for the record MIA and MIC holders do not have to be SPA holders as it is not a pre-requiste for either course, it is in fact a very simple award which is basically for providing top-rope/abseil sessions. Anyone who refers to themselves as an SPA holder and therefore has a good knowledge of what there doing is probably clueless.

Regards Ewan

In reply to Toreador: Here in lies the crux. The answer is obviously "No".

We need to make the distinction between someone who is a low level WALKER enjoying a stroll on low level paths (wearing wellies, a knitted scarf and walking a labrador) here and someone who a CLIMBER is vying to do something technical and in this case was up a gully with a pair of crampons strapped onto bendy 3 season boots, an axe and no rope for back up and sadly got hurt.

If you are a novice in a "Mountaineering Club" you are a peer with others who have varying levels of expereince to yourself. Some might be complete newcomers to the sport whereas someone else might be high on experience and qualifications to back up the experience (qualifications mean nothing without the vital experience to back them up) then there are all the colours of the rainbow inbetween.

To an extent most knowledge we gain as climbers is gained from more experience friends and other people passing on their skills (within their own capabilities of course) whilst in an informal setting i.e. a day out with some mates. Courses and getting good expereince don't have to cost that much either.

1) There are hoards of Aspirant Guides who are looking for willing students. Meat for manners here - you help me with my log book and I'll teach you some basics and give you a good day out. If you contact PYB or Glenmore Lodge they can put your details on a database.

2) Plas Y Brenin are always looking for mock students:
http://www.pyb.co.uk/information/mock-students.php

3) As are the Glenmore Lodge:
http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/free-training.asp

4) The Conville Memorial Trust in association with the PYB:
http://www.pyb.co.uk/courses/course-notes-detail.php?code=JCMT01

5) Lifts & Partners forum on UKC - Sarah has already mentioned she's received numerous days with very expereinced people this way.

In reply to Fawksey:

From a cost point of view i'm sure NHS managament don't like this sort of expense, but as awful as it is most front line staff generally love a nice juicy trauma job, gives us a topic of conversation for days...or in the case of the BUMS girl who fell in the pass a topic for an entire's evening mountain medicine seminar. They make great learning jobs for med students/junior doctors, in many specialities...A&E, anaesthetic, orthopod, general surgery etc. So from an NHS development point of view...keep em coming...guess it's a form of volunteering to be involved in medical research

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: The usual response is that its good training for them. Also that rescues still ahve to be set up as there arent enough real incidents for them to keep their skills sharp. I was dropped off and rescued on South Stack once by RAF Valley.

In reply to Fawksey: Yep, that is very true. Hope you had a good flight and they didn't bounce you about too much!

In reply to Sarah Finney: Sorry Sarah I must correct you. Im not a paramedic

The only ticket Im holding at the moment is that Im qualified to give oxygen resucitation in a confined space. Not very practical really.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: They took great delight in getting the tail of the winch to discharge static through my shoulder blades.

In reply to Sarah Finney:


Sorry, it is surely a very bad idea to expect the uni to be responsible for safety on these trips. If that becomes established the likely result is that such clubs will be closed down.


There have been quite a few fatalities on university-club trips over the years, just as there have been fatalities in trips run by other clubs. So far that hasn't had huge consequences for the clubs, since they do not operate on the principle that the university manages and is responsible for safety. Instead they operate on the consenting-adult principle of any other BMC-affiliated club.

If you want to change that and succeed in doing so then you will *close* *these* *clubs* *down*. You might prefer that to accepting occasional accidents; most climbers would not.

In reply to The third:

The only time i've payed for climbing tuition is for my SPA course. All the rest has been experienced friends (i've been very lucky), and been out with 4 or 5 trainee MIA's...it is FREE to do this, it just requires a little effort off my own back to organise, but it is FREE!!!

As for not being able to afford training after spending £500+ on winter boots' crampons, and axes...then these students are clearly getting way to big loans (que the abuse) or not getting there priorities right...i payed £45 for a pair of nearly new Scarpa Freneys on ebay, £100 for a pair of technical axes (also ebay) and i'm now looking for a cheap pair of C2/3 crampons...£145 so far...no where near £500+!

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:
I was aware of most of these. The first I have never heard of before
2 and 3 I had but always considered what they can teach you on these as limited as really there just rying to assess candidates
The fourth personally I didn't get on the conville course(im sure if you refer to university student whines about not being given free stuff nov 09 you will find my previous rather childish complaining)
5)Wait a minute I thought the bulk of your argument was about not trusting people who were unqualified regardless of there varying experienced, surely the majority of people on ukc on the lifts and partners section will be in that bracket. In fact dare I say it some of the people who exist in that section on ukc are presicely the people you want us to avoid climbing with

Equally perhaps what I really should turn round to you lot and say who is on this thread because they fancy a bit of a rant/argument and who wants to do something productive. Anyone wanting to do something productive would surely be passing on the details of those five things you just mentioned becky to student groups(the majority of which probably haven't thought about it)/arranging for unexperienced people they don't know but have an opinon about how they conduct themselves to get on cheap free training

Sorry if that sounds rude etc its not meant to
Ewan

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:
>
>

That's as maybe, but friends on the MR teams and ex-RAF MR tell me that they have to log x hours a month flying, and actually the call outs they get are very good training and count towards that logged time.

In reply to Sarah:

As for the point you keep making - many many people (including many of the MIAs and guides) will never have had any formal training when they are starting out climbing. We just got out and did it, learning as we went. In fact, many of us didn't even have more experienced friends - we just went out with mates at a similar level after reading a few books from the library. Professional training is not the be-all and end-all. While I agree that getting training from an MIA candidate is a great idea, i do not believe that it should be enforced or expected. Clubs should primarily be groups of like-minded peers, not training schools.

In reply to Coel Hellier: Well if deaths and coroners involvement hasn't shut down these clubs, why's everyone so worried about becky (a concerned member of the public) sending a letter. What is it that she could say that is making everyone so nervous?!

In reply to Sarah Finney:

Sarah,

More or less right on the qualifications.

To register for MIA training you must be a qualified summer Mountain Leader with at least 20 days in the mountains with groups after having qualified. You must also be well practiced in the art of multi-pitch climbing on mountain crags and sea cliffs. As Ewan points out, you need not hold a climbing qualification, though many do.

After training, there is a requirement to consolidate by doing more mountain days, a number of rock climbing sessions and even more ‘big climbs’.

Therefore, ML holders wanting to pursue MIA will be more than happy to take groups out for mountain days coaching navigation, mountain safety etc. MIA trainees will be happy to instruct just about any mountain activity, probably having discussed the scope of the exercise with a qualified mentor before hand.

An aspirant MIC will hold the winter ML, the MIA and be a proficient winter climber. Note, with the ML awards, the prerequisite for assessment is personal hill days. Therefore, a newly qualified winter ML will have a lot of good personal experience and also have undergone 4 weeks of training and assessment in group leadership skills under the full spectrum of UK mountain conditions. They may not however have had much opportunity to lead groups per se.

So, if you want a certain type of training for free, you have to find an instructor at the appropriate transition point, somewhere between ML and MIC, capable of delivering the skills you require and willing to do so for free for the mutual gain of all concerned.

As I said earlier, contact AMI or MLTA and they will be able to provide both guidance and contacts.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

no and dont realy care, they can all go out with a hemp rope for all i care and shit kit, but hse do regulate the uni, hse dont supervise anything and wont care if its not within there remit, but if it is and you with hold info then expect them to take issue with it.

In reply to Sarah Finney:

Because although it doesn't shut down all clubs, it does cause a huge amount of hassle with people who have no clue about climbing imposing rules more appropriate on the football pitch, and which ultimately have no effect. Some clubs have been shut down due to liability concerns (Sheffield Uni Mountaineering club in the late 90s for example), so it can and does happen.

As someone who has put considerable energy into student clubs, passing on safe practice yet also encouraging a little adventure, whilst battling against pointless rules, I do agree that lessons need to be learnt from any incident. You do see some shocking things out on the hills and crags, and some awareness goes a long way. The BMC do some great work in this arena, and the Student Seminar is excellent. Unfortunately more and more uni clubs are not affiliated to the BMC (too much cash outlay for a lack of tangible benefits for the average member). Your suggestion of using trainee MIAs and MICs is an excellent one. However, the reality is that people will always learn by their experience, and formal instruction is only one possible route to take. The vast majority of university clubs are excellent, and the internet has made a big difference to the mass-toproping of old, for example, as a brief browse on here or on the BMC site will soon explain why this isn't a great idea. I think the key message is that the only thing that we really can do is to provide university club committees with information on what may be available to them. Then they should be free to make their own decisions. Who are we to impose any rules on anyone?

In reply to Monk:

The reason i keep making this point is not that i think that on no circumstances should people learn off there peers, but as an alternative to the argument put by many that students can't afford professional training, and uni clubs haven't got the trained members/time frame to train members in order to be able to provide this level of training.

In reply to Sarah Finney:


Because if people kick up a stink to universities, and given that universities, like anyone else, do not like bad publicity, then the unis might decide they don't need the hassle and that it's easiest to just close the clubs down.

The point is, do you want universities to be responsible for the safety of these trips or don't you? (And, legally, I don't think there is a half-way house here.) If the answer is "no", then why are you suggesting writing to the uni as though it is responsible?

If the answer is "yes", then please realise that, while *individuals* or groups of such can make a private arrangement to go out with a trainee MIA, a university could not go with that sort of private, informal arrangement. *If* the university became or felt responsible for safety of such trips then its only option would be the full hog of paid, qualified professionals, manned to "best practice" levels. Anything less than that would not be defendable in court (I'm open to correction if that is wrong). That would mean 1 SPA to every 4 top-ropers, 1 MIA to every 2 leaders, a full mountain guide for Scottish Winter, etcetera.

Given the cost the university would simply not do it. It would simply not have a climbing club. Students would then have to meet in informal clubs that were not university affiliated, meaning they'd get even less help with things like mini-buses than they already get, and it would be hard for new students to get involved.

I've no objection to people advising students to make use of any instruction they can, from trainee-MIAs, MRTs, the BMC, or whoever. That is very sensible, and they're fools if they don't make use of opportunities. But that has to be advice to the *students*. That is a very different matter from expecting the universities to take responsibility.

In reply to muppetfilter:

Do you know that the accident was caused by unsafe practices picked up from fellow climbers?


If you can find me an MIC who'll do a course for less than a fiver a day then I'll book myself in immediately!

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: (and The Third)

I am Tom Bond, the other student rep who is currently representing University clubs along with Ewan (the third) within the BMC.
I too would also happily take any advice about what Ewan has suggested. I would also be useful if Becky, you wouldn't mind emailing me directly so this can be passed on/I would be happy to contact the club in question for you. (on v1i71@keele.students.ac.uk)

Many of the issues brought up on here are relevant, however I agree with the majority too, that there simply isn't enough time or money within a university club for people to be properly trained, and so compromises have to be met
Many of our members get taught by a professional, say first aid or navigation skills, who then pass them on to the rest of the club (of those interested). Also, many of us get taught by others in the club. We have a few members who aren't actually within the university, but locals, who have climbed for maybe 5 years. These guys aren't trained but taught me alot of what I know (after initially being taught by my dad, who also isn't trained)

Most of those you find in the hills aren't trained, and your usual punters are the ones that need the airlifting after they have lost there way and being unprepared. This isn't a reflection on university clubs as such.
Within my club, before we leave, we make sure everyone has suitable food, drink, clothing, torches, etc.

Thanks
Tom

In reply to Toreador:
I can think of one involving a student climber!

In reply to The third: I hope I'm here to be productive: I'm new to the UKC forums and wasn't aware that the "debate" would be taken up to the extent that it has. But I'm glad that many people have taken the time to post here. I've given lots of thought to things I've read here and am trying to keep an open mind and listen to other people's opinions they share here.

I'm passing these details and links on to the students that I met the other night in Patterdale.

Do the BMC have a University/College/Young Person's Climbing Club rep or member of staff to liaise with the clubs (I know they do this for under 17s).

Sorry my answers are short - I have a 15 month old running amock!

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:


Not specifically for clubs
Nick Colton at the BMC is Youth's officer
Martin Kocsis is the Volunteers officer
Jon Garside is MLTE officer

Me and the third (Ewan) are temporarily representing University Clubs within the BMC as student reps

Hope this helps
Tom

In reply to Sarah Finney:

and I can think of two involving climbers who learned the basics on courses at Glenmore Lodge and with a guide in the Lakes.

Which proves just as little as your example

In reply to TomBond:

Tom,

I believe the BMC have been running the ‘instructor support initiative’ for the last two years. How does this work and do you find it is helping to address the training requirements of university clubs.

Paul

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: A lot of good stuff has already been said on here, and to be honest with you we could really do with more details of the group involved - their plan, their experience, their training, their equipment etc. However, Becky's picked up on some serious points:-
1. The club had had a serious accident the year before and the students were sh1tting themselves because they'd had another one - so they'd obviously not learnt from the last one.
2. Inexperience - who the hell solos winter routes on their first trip out?
3. Lack of suitable equipment - As a group a 1st aid kit and shelter SHOULD have been carried. Anyone complaining that you can't climb with a 1st aid kit and bothy bag in their sack (Franco) should have the sense to give it to the second to carry!! Realistically a 1st aid kit for UK use only needs to be electrician's tape, crepe bandage and tissues/wound dressings.

Aside from all the qualifications stuff, the club should be encouraging 'best practise' - and the points Becky outlined are definitely not best practise!! To let Freshers who've never climbed before out winter mountaineering is asking for trouble!! It's November, they're going to only have had 2 months climbing experience in general, and probably only 2 trips outdoors! All it needs is asome sensible rules - no winter mountaineering without a year's rock experience, no club kit to be borrowed without a bothybag and 1st aid kit included.
Uni clubs invariably suffer a lack of experience - when I joined the Plymouth club I was the most 'trained' member of the club with the most outdoor experience. I was 21, leading seacliff trad E1 and had done the scout climbing badge when I was 14!
I'm currently the training officer for my club (not university) and although I have no NGB awards (SPSA trained but not assessed) we consistently churn out well-rounded competent climbers simply due to the 'safety-first' attitude in the club, and the ticklists we run new climbers through. All our climbing is done on seacliffs, so we make sure people can belay (incl. italian hitch), know 'the calls', tie a few simple knots, and abseil-prussik-abseil without leaving the rope before we take them outside. The whole 'apprenticeship' ethos is encouraged, and it works damn well!

In reply to Toerag:

You make some good points, while some I disagree with. However, on this one, I believe it was confirmed further back up the thread that the serious accident referred to was in fact another university club.

In reply to Dark Peak Paul:


I'm not aware of this, or at least by this name
I think you may be referring to the training money that we apply for from the BMC
I'm not entirely sure how it works, as I wasn't that involved in the club last year and am only gear sec this year (so applications like that are done by the secretary and usually bypasses me!)
However, we got around £150 this year from that application, and are using it for practical crag first aid, however, have around 5 committee members that wish to do it, so it only reduces the price a slight amount, however any help is better than none!

I hope this answers your question!!

In reply to Toerag:


It has been established up-thread that this was another club.


Grade 1 gully for someone with a hill-walking background, not necessarily a problem. Rock-climbing experience would be somewhat irrelevant.


As is often said, anything minor enough to be dealt with by a typical 1st aid kit can be ignored and isn't a life/death issue. For anything too serious to be ignored a typical 1st aid kit would likely not be much use. I think it is wrong to thus advise that "best practice" demands a 1st aid kit.

In reply to Tom Ripley:
If you are going to quote the original then quote the whole sentence, it may not have been the best grammer but there was a definatly a 'not' in there that you edited out...can't be arsed to read the rest of your post if you're going in for clever editing.

In reply to Toerag:


I agree with the general tone of your post, but I do have to contest this part. What on earth has rock climbing got to do with plodding up steep snow? There is absolutely no reason for a winter climber to be a rock climber.

In reply to Tom Ripley: Read it again, you've missed a couple of words out!

In reply to Toerag:

Youve taken his comments out of context. Franco already clarified that if he was taking a group out he would indeed carry said items.

In reply to Tom Ripley: That was very dishonest.

In reply to TomBond:

It sort of answers the question but I may well send you a mail.

Thanks.

In reply to Fawksey: In fairness I misread the original on the first read, the grammar was dire!

In reply to Beowulf: I also misread and was about to wade in spitting feathers. However to be fair Tom edited it out because he knew it didnt say what he wanted it to say. With that level of dishonesty no wonder we have to mark our gear at the crag.

In reply to Fawksey:


He could have simply made a mistake, surely?

In reply to Coel Hellier: how?

In reply to Coel Hellier: Quite...How? it wasn't like that was a sentence on it's own...there was a whole paragraph with it...yes the was grammar shit, but i'm poorly, and have to go to work for 12 hours tonight, so i'm grumpy as well, so i'm really not in the mood for taking on the grammer/spelling hitlers on here!

In reply to Coel Hellier: At least he has a sense of shame and removed it

In reply to muppetfilter:

100% disagree, they do, all the time. Get over it. Not every bad occurrence can be blamed upon another person.

Recently a friend of mine fell off a route, and broke his ankle. It was within his grade, his gear held, and he didn't deck and there was very little slack in the system. He just hit a ledge on the way down. How do you propose to attach blame to that?

In reply to Dark Peak Paul: I'm not jaded, i probably should have phrased it better, climbing for me is about having fun and no rules, and in general the stereotypical SPA type climbers are so against that ethos that it annoys meand in reply to fawkesy: yes brampton near carlisle, well i actually live in a small village called heads nook.

In reply to Monk:

I'd been winter climbing for a year before I first tried summer rock climbing

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

Dont take offence here but I don't think its within your experience bracket to "pen a letter to the Uni" on this issue.

I wasn't there so Ill take for granted a lot which has been said and by the sounds of it someone made some stupid mistakes and very bad judgements. However that is for the police and MRT to deal with and not members of the public nor people on this fourm.

Although your opinion on student clubs maybe partly correct it should not affect the judgement of the officials in charge of this incident (Police, MRT, SU, the club in question, then next student club you meet etc). your opinion is polarised and not neutral, and therefore not without bias.

People should remember that a high volume of students move on to contribute to british climbing in a way that we are very proud of, one of them was working for SAIS while doing a PhD and another is one of the best climbers in the UK. you must never draw conclusions to fit the whole data set from one source of information, if you do you will be wrong.

Finally we should all remember what we have written here and the next time you offer advice to anyone about climbing and walking in winter remember how simple it was to cast judgement on someone who got the wrong advice.

In reply to Rob15:

I think that you should remember that an SPA (or any other type of instructor) has to wear two hats. When they wear the one that says SPA, then it is safety first, best practice etc. On their days off, they probably don't flash the SPA badge too much, especially if they are doing something silly

In reply to seaofdreams:
However that is for the police and MRT to deal with and not members of the public nor people on this fourm.

Please dont take offence here but bollocks

Certainly isnt MRT's remit.

In reply to Fawksey:


Nor the police's! Since when do the police have authority to regulate climbing and who goes on the hill?

In reply to Fawksey:

when i was rescued the police acting on information of the MRT debriefed us. this is exactly what will happen here. it may not be their remit but it is their area of expertise

In reply to Coel Hellier:

woah big leap to bring in regulation - this is about passing on advice

In reply to Franco Cookson:

whats that quote about a little knowledge being a dangerous thing?

In reply to Fawksey:

I assume MRT are bound by a degree of confidentiality to the patient, thus are limited by what they say

As are the hospital or anyone else dealing with the patient in a medical capacity

The police presumably had very little to do with this rescue, as no one died

This only leaves the individuals involved...who it has been stated before...weren't overly keen on the uni finding out about the incident, or bystanders who witnessed the fall/rescue.

If becky chooses to pen a letter, and that's her choice she was unfortunate enough to witness this incident, how the uni/ climbing club in question decide to deal with it from there is up to them.

If there has been nothing done wrong here then it can be put down as an unfortunate accident, if things could have been done better lessons will hopefully be learn...but trying to cover it up isn't going to improve things for the novice climbers in the club.

What is worth remembering is that her injury (fractured femur) in the environment that she was in, and the distance/time she was from hosipital could have easily resulted in a fatality.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: Firstly, you clearly did an incredible job of looking after and managing the incident and i hope the club in question has given you a hearty thankyou.

However, I do not feel the 'student' aspect of this accident is the issue. For a start are you certain they were members of a club and not just 6 students out on the hill together? Student clubs are run safely and successfully throughout the country, it should be considered as a group of people involved in an incident in the same way that any group of people could be involved in an incident on the hill. Shutting the club down (if a club is involved) would not reflect upon their inexperience and it could simply cause students to operate outside the funding and regulation of the club and potentially lead to more accidents.

The group clearly made a collection of poor decisions however if you were to go out on the hill with a group of 6 friends and made a poor decision that led to an accident would you expect to be told to cease any outdoor activity until you and your friends had 'learnt your lesson', or would you wish to make your own judgement as to how you ended up in that situation and act upon it accordingly? I doubt the people involved will reflect upon broken limbs lightly.

Students clubs are their to facillitate activities but the students are responsible for themselves as adults. That is not to say experienced members do not have a duty of care to novices. S.U officers that regulate clubs within universities cannot be expected to be experts in every sport undertaken at that uni especially one as complex as climbing, therefore the students union cannot be held responsible for club members making poor decisions.

Thankfully many clubs operate alongside the BMC whom provide help and advice that make occurances like these rare in comparison to the overall number of incidents on mountains and crags throughout the U.K (there are stats to support this!).

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

Becky, I apologise that I have had to edit your post from the original; however your post generated many questions in my mind about the incident and your perception of it.

"the climber's parter [sic] took about a while to climb down and get to her - the other 4 people in their group were seemingly unaware of the situation for sometime [sic]."

You bring up the rate at which the partner down-climbed to the injured party. Is this relevant, or added as an attempt to further the view of incompetence you portray. I offer the opinion that it is better that the partner got there uninjured, to assist the situation, rather than rush and become a casualty.

The other 4 people in the group, were these people actually with the climber who fell, on the same route? Were they in the same climbing team? Or by group do you mean that they shared transport from the same university and were elsewhere on the hill/ on other routes that day? If they were in the same area, do you have any thoughts on why they might have been unaware?

"The group we encountered (a group of 6 Uni students from London) were completely unprepared for a day out on the hill.
No suitably experienced or qualified leader,"

How did you measure this, or is this based upon your personal opinion? In addition the question of the relevance of qualifications has been done to death in this thread and others already.

"no charged up mobile phones, "

Is this in the climbing team, or the group of 6 as a whole?

"no decent head torches,"

Does this imply that they had headtorches you deemed unsuitable or that they had none at all? Again is this in the climbing team, or the group of 6 as a whole?


"unsuitable footwear, "

Are you referring to the whole group, the climber etc? Was this the case for all the group members?

"broken crampons hanging off their beltloops,"

My interpretation here is that they have identified a piece of equipment is faulty and have therefore taken it off their boots rather than proceed with it.

"unsuitable clothing, "

As you referring to the whole group? Was this the case for all the group members?

"incorrectly fitting harnesses (that hadn't been put on properly anyway),"

As you referring to the whole group? Was this the case for all the group members?

no emergency shelter, etc,... etc.

The fallen climber wasn't wearing crampons (although these might have peeled off her bendy boots and could have been further up the crag) and she wasn't roped up either - from what I gather she didn't have any winter experience.
The conditions on Saturday in the Lakes didn't really lend themselves to gullies either - rock hard ice with powder snow wafting about on top)

Is this in your professional opinion, or a subjective observation?

"It took Patterdale M.R. and the RN Heli about two hours to get to the girl who was eventually winched off the... mountain."

With a 40min flight time for the helicopter from base are your timings of the arrival of the helicopter accurate?

"Did the group (who were in absolute clip) learn any lessons?
I'm not sure, they walked off and pretty much left one of their own behind with a sprained ankle who I took pity on and gave a walking pole to!"

Surely the time that they will learn lessons is after an analysis of the event, not necessarily minutes after the completion of the evacuation of a casualty in the heat of the moment.

"I googled the club this morning and discovered they had someone winched of a mountain crag in Wales in February too!!!! "

It is apparent from another poster that this is not the case.

"Should this Uni club be shut down whilst they are taught some essential skills and drills?"

In my opinion this would be reactionary, without clarification of some of the points you present above.

"Who is responsible for the safety of the students that are given minibusses [sic] and accomodation [sic] for expeditions and then let loose and allowed to go onto the mountain playground with crampons and axes?"

As has been discussed above, the responsibility lies with the individual as with other BMC affiliated clubs. In my experience students hire minibuses either from their university or external companies and I’m not clear what the relevance of ‘accomodation [sic] for expeditions’ has.

"I am all for people getting out, having an adventure and enjoying the hills but surely a climbing club should know better than this and cannot keep up with peeling its members off mountains for the Helicopters [sic] to collect."

That is very gracious of you, further, it is apparent from the earlier poster that this is an isolated incident for this club.

"Should they be made to go on MLTs (or similar) and First Aid courses for basic knowledge and instruction?"

This presumes that they haven’t attended such courses, and I refer to my previous question asking how you quantified their experience or qualifications.

"What are your views? Should I write to the Uni concerned with a strongly penned letter or will they learn their lesson on this one"

If writing to the university will help you achieve closure in this instance then go for it. If however in answer to the questions I have raised above it is apparent that your OP is full of generalisations and assumptions about the organisation of the club it might be worth considering if your strongly penned letter will be as effective as you want it to be.

I raise the latter point becomes it seems that during the incident you must have spent a lot of time finding out the background of the those involved and checking the contents of their rucksacks to achieve a position informed enough to be willing to publish it.

Logo

In reply to Sarah Finney: I dont think you should have addressed this to me.

In reply to logo: I've emailed you back "Logo" - see you've just set the profile up today. Thanks for the spelling lesson.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

No I don't think you should.
If we go down the road which you're heading then we'll end up with a load of folk who 'believe themselves to be a cut above', trying to police folk who 'they believe to be a cut below' about what they should and shouldn't be doing in the hills/mountains and crags.

I think the best solution would be to charge for Mountain Rescue call-out and basically leave it up to any individual whether they venture out with that in mind.
That would include people who 'suppose themselves to be a cut above' when they get into 'accidental' or 'unforseen' trouble too though mind!!

I also think that folk who are so passionate about the policing of suitability for the hills should volunteer (especially on the first days of snowfall etc) to stand at the start of the most popular trails and hand out awareness pamphlets of potential dangers/hazards.
ie. Do something 'positive' and 'useful' to address the issue, instead of just having a good old whinge on here after the fact.

Either do that, (take action) or do like I do... just ignore it, stay away from people who you 'personally believe to be useless or nutters' and let everyone get on with dicing with death, if that's what they choose to dice with!
I mean, I'd help anyone in trouble at the crag or in the hills if they need it.... Lets face it, most people would do whatever they could.
There's no need to feel either like a hero or aggrieved afterwards...
It's just a call of duty!

A guy's contemplating leading a hard grit route - Does he have to check with ukc/bmc/mrt/wtfmc* that he's got the necessary skills and gear first? Will the Chopper show up anyway?
Are other climbers just gonna stand around when he falls going "serves him right"
I mean where does it all end??

The over inflated ego around all this stuff is just hysterical!

p.s. It couldn't be me having my gear checked in the example because I've not got any anymore

*whatever the f*ck mountain council

In reply to Sarah Finney:


A valid comparison to writing a letter to the university would be if there were a climbing accident in a Peak quarry, and a "concerned member of the public" chose to write to the landowner making them aware of it and suggesting that they need to do more to regulate activity on their land. The landowner would be twitchy enough about liability for climbing on their land anyhow, and such a letter would not improve things. Ditto for a university.

Here's another comparison. Last winter a student went out drinking with his mates. At about midnight, fairly drunk, and wearing only indoor clothing, he walked back to his room across the uni playing fields. Halfway back he passed out (presumably owing to alcohol) and by the morning he had died of hypothermia. A tragedy for him, his family and friends. But are the university responsible? No, because it is accepted that they do not regulate or supervise alcohol intake of students nor their clothing or how they get home, even if he had been at an event run by the student union. The student was thus responsible for his own decisions, however unfortunate. (In contrast, if this had been a 6th-former at a boarding school, drinking under supervision, the school would have been answerable.)

The uni student going climbing has to be regarded the same, as not under university supervision and responsible for his own decisions (even if on an outing with fellow students, and affiliated with the union). You are welcome to *advise* the student about climbing risks and appropriate training, just as you are welcome to advise students about drinking. But don't start holding universities responsible for regulating the activity, it's against all traditions of climbing, and will only result in huge restrictions (summer top-roping only, for example).

If any student (or their parents) don't like learning to climb in such a climbing club then they'll find plenty of commercial courses willing to train them. But someone going climbing for the first time with a uni club is still responsible for themselves in the same way that a person going drinking with mates is responsible for their own decisions. And if they solo a route beyond their competence that's their fault, in the same way that if they're egged on to drinking too much by peer pressure that's their fault.

In reply to Coel Hellier: How can a complete winter novice be responsible for their own decisions on the hill. It must surely be a duty of care exercised by the organisers to assess the route, skills of the party and to choose an apropriate route and activity.

To go with your drinking analogy it would be like supplying the student with an unlabled bottle of 100% proof alcohol the first time they ever drink alcohol and not warning them of what they are about to drink....

To add a note of seriousness just remeber Lyme bay and Cairngorm to see what happens when a badly planned adventure goes wrong.

In reply to muppetfilter:


In the same way that someone who has never drunk alcohol can be responsible for their own actions if they go out drinking with mates and opt to match them pint for pint. And in the same way that if I choose to try to swim the channel alone tomorrow (being only a mediocre swimmer) then I'm responsible. This is part of what being an adult means.


Totally *wrong*. That is *not* the basis on which most climbing clubs operate. They are *not* professional guiding organisations!


Sure, and if one student offered that to his mate then the student who drank it would be responsible for drinking it.


Both involving juveniles not adults, and one involving a professional instruction organisation, who, yes, would indeed owe a duty of care. A group of mates going climbing does not, and that is what a climbing club.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

When I was in Aberystwyth I was in the Walking and Mountaineering club.

The walking club ranged from not at all experienced (usually foreign students using the walking club as a sight seeing tour) to very experienced.

The student union stipulated that per group we had to have:

1 qualified first aider
1 person with ML Training

When a minibus was taken 2 people had to be able/qualified to drive it.

In Mountaineering club it was a bit more relaxed - basically people who thought they could climb taught people who didn't have a clue but the minibus/first aider rule still applied!

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: "Logo" actually has a point regarding your assumptions of the group involved though.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

I chose the examples of Lyme bay and cairngorm as examples of how things can very quickly go wrong in the outdoors.It is irrelevent wether it is children or adults the scenario of taking the inexperienced into a potentialy hostile environment in which they dont know or could recognise the risks are the same. How about Parsley fern Gully as an example of how an organised University Club trip can go wrong and resulted in a death.

If it is an informal lift out to a venue then fine lead E7 like my uni climbing partner used to , however as soon as you take novices you asume a moral if no other obligation to their welfare and safety.

"The standard of care owed to a novice is obviously higher than to an experienced participant. Hence, it is wise to ensure that a novice has been made fully aware of the relevant risks involved." From the BMC safety and skills http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1544

In reply to Coel Hellier: You raise some interesting points but an example of drinking booze (whilst it highlights a point of she's an adult and can make her own decisions) is not relavent in this context. The legal implications of responsibility and duty of care in this context are more extracted. When a novice is involved through a club, there is a duty of care. I'd like to direct you towards the BMC Publication: "Risk, Responsibility, Duty of Care and Liability: Club Guidelines". Please read this document and then you'll see it's not the same as going for a drink with a mate.

One further point: she paid money to the club to go on this organised trip with her uni Outdoor Club.

In reply to cj1970: And I've emailed him back regarding the points he's picked up on but I haven't hear back from him yet.

In reply to Coel Hellier: Here's a link you should look at

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmcNews/media/u_content/File/clubs_huts/clubs/Club%...

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

As an older member of my University Mountaineering Club (I'm not actually a student anymore) I try and put as much effort into the training of the new younger members of the club.

Smaller student mountaineering clubs often don't have the skills base of larger clubs on which to rely. I know that in the last club trip to Wales, the university actually banned the club from climbing on multipitch crags because they didn't consider anyone in the club to have the relevent experience (sea-cliffs it seems are always out of the question!). It's quite said to see that my once proud club is slowly diminishing because of lack of interest and effort from experienced people.

Instead of complaining about Uni clubs on an internet forum, why don't people get in contact with thier own club and give something back?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

Errr, those doubting me should read the thread properly <puts single finger up>

In reply to mlmatt: Gosh, if people only knew what was coming off the back of this in terms of progress!!

>Instead of complaining about Uni clubs on an internet forum, why don't people get in contact with thier own club and give something back?<


I've had email contact and exchange with a couple of BMC student reps via this forum and discussed with them some points to consider in order to help Uni clubs... their forum title is "University Climbing Clubs, Ideas?" so take a look and comment if you've anything to add. The suggestions they put up there are as a direct result of emails we've exchanged so something positive is definately coming out of this for all concerned.

I didn't bring this to public forum to complain about them but if something good happens as a result, then that's wonderful, don't you agree?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:


That just emphasises that individuals have various levels of responsibility to each other. No where does it suggest a University would have any responsibility for students climbing.

In reply to MG: This is a bit off point and I'm not sure I've directly said the Uni is responsible (although they are an interested party as the club gets some money from the uni to operate and is subsidised by them). Club memebers are putting themselves at risk of litigation from more novice members for not using a bit of common sense. Maybe if they knew this was the case they'd have said to the girl, something along the lines of rather than climb that horrible gully, how about practicing cutting steps, ice axe arrest, etc on safer ground... To quote parts of the guidelines:

At times, individuals will find themselves providing informal advice, or more formal mentoring, to those less experienced than themselves. This could include introducing a newcomer to the sport, or taking a group to the mountains.
Less experienced adult group members are still capable (to a degree) of making their own informed decisions (appropriate to their knowledge), such as accepting reasonable responsibility for the situation they are in and will owe a reasonable duty of care to others in the group.
But in this situation the duty of care applies proportionally and the more experienced persons are expected to act within the context of their own knowledge or experience.
Within this type of situation, those with more experience have a duty to choose reasonable objectives and ensure that those with less experience are aware of the hazards and risks that may arise.

To establish that there has been negligence three factors must exist:
(i) a duty of care must be owed in the first place
(ii) there must have been a breach of that duty of care
(iii) actual damage must have resulted from that breach of duty of care.

So you see, the girl was capable of making a decision as to the level of activity the participated in BUT as a novice, was she really able to make an informed choice?

In reply to ChrisHolloway1:


Thanks Chris.

I appreciate the frustration with dealing with anonymous posters but I have a very distinctive name. I would be happy to say face-to-face anything I post. I would be less happy for prospective employers to find how much time I spend on this forum.

I still think compulsory training and certification is the wrong path to take here.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:

As per usual when discussing an important topic on UKC this has all got a little frantic!

My humble observations:

1. As a father of two sons about to go to Uni I would hope that the clubs offering services have a level of experience and expertise. As a wide eyed 18 yr old student wanting to experience new activities I would not have the skills or awareness to begin to look into the H+S set up of a club I was wanting to join. Surely, as described by a number of Uni members on here, the club has a level of responsibility to offer reasonable safe activities - within the parameter of those activities. ie we know climbing can be dangerous but lets not drive to snowdonia in a bus with worn tyres.

2. The University itself should have a system which regulates the setting up of clubs to ensure the above is in place.

3. Some of the examples given - such as a drunken student walking home and dies of hypothermia are similar to the situation we are discussing is frankly laughable.

4. The stick the OP is getting for bringing this subject up is unacceptable. If someone asks a question to raise an issue for debate it does not mean that they necessarily believe one side or the other and it is these sorts of attacks which I am sure stop some people raising issues on this forum - effectively smothering free speech.

5. Lastly we all love climbing because we think it has no rules, is a bit dangerous, allows us to appear a little radical. Well the facts are that to survive in the hills, on the mountains or within a rock climbing environment for your own lifetime there are very clear rules and methods to go about your business safely. For some reason a number of people do not admit to this.

Well done Becky for bringing this up - I for one will certainly discuss this with my lad before he sets off to Uni next Autumn.

In reply to flaneur: Compulsory training would cripple and close down all but a few clubs, that's true. However, there's much to be done regarding encouraging the development of new / young climbers.

Have a look at "University Climbing Clubs, Ideas?"

There are a few very practical and sensible suggestions that have arrisen during email exhanged with myself and Tom and Ewan who are BMC student reps. Hopefully, something really positive will come of this and the BMC can look at ways in which is can do more to train and encourage newcomers to the sport. If this forum has done something (other than make people get heated!!) it hopefully has shown an issue for discussion. Best wishes

In reply to robw007:


Why?

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Because which Uni club could possibly be responsible for that action?

In reply to robw007:

Any club that goes drinking as part of its activities?

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:


I've read it thanks, and actually the sort of "duty of care" owed by a student to a fellow student on such a trip is legally *exactly* the sort of duty of care owed by one student to another when they go out as mates, drinking or clubbing or fly-fishing or climbing or whatever.

BMC Participation statement: "The BMC recognises that climbing, hill walking and mountaineering are activities with a danger of personal injury or death. Participants in these activities should be aware of and accept these risks and be responsible for their own actions and involvement." Note that last bit.

In reply to robw007:


This is the whole point. A climbing club is *not* responsible for the safety of those who climbing with the club! It is just a way of climbers meeting up to find partners and hire minibuses, etc.

BMC Participation statement: "... Participants in these activities should be aware of and accept these risks AND BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS AND INVOLVEMENT".

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:


Yes they can but do really want to encourage that sort of mentality in climbing?

In reply to MG: But if you pay money to go on an organised trip, it is a bit different than going on a boozy post match celebration.

In reply to MG: You can pick at this all you like but the long and the short of it is that if you have more experience, you're deemed the leader under civil law. The point of this forum was about should people be educated and encouraged to develop a set of skills that will ensure their safety and how can that be done in a student club with tight resources.

You can argue the legal and moral complexities as much as you want - the law is the law.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake:


Yes, so the sort of duty of care owed by student climbers to each other is the sort of duty of care owed to each other by a group of mates playing football in the park. For example they owe a "duty to care" not to make a reckless tackle that injures someone.


Which is exactly why the uni is not going to take responsibility for regulating and supervising the activity. And a court is unlikely to hold that one undergrad student has a sufficient duty of care to another that one student is responsible if another one tackles a climb too hard for them. With a professional guide they would.

In reply to BeckyOfTheLake: Your attitude is really depressing. I suggest you should give up climbing if you are the type of person looking to sue others when you get in trouble or hurt yourself. The whole ethos of climbing is taking responsibility for your own actions. If you are uncomfortable with this then you will probably not enjoy it much and by taking a legalistic attitude will spoil it for everyone else.