UKC

I wish this was a joke, sadly its not.

I came across 2 'climbers' at Millstone this afternoon top roping embankment 2 and 3, they were attempting to dry tool up the cracks with little success and much scraping of crampons. To say that I was angry was an understatement, my wife said I handled the situation very camly despite me seething.

I and later another passing bloke spoke to the pair about what they were doing and very very strongly suggested that they stop immediately. Neither seemed particularly concerned about the fact that they were dry tooling grit and the climber (Callum from London) had the following reasons to counter my strong arguements:

Well its not like its stanage
Millstone has a history of pegs and aid climbing , without that none of these routes would be climbable
Its not dry tooling, its winter climbing
All rock climbing damages the rock
There is ice in the cracks

Obviously I countered these with some very strong opinions, the pair seemed to think they were following in the foot steps of winter climbing pioneers whereas what they were actually doing was scratching (badly with crampons) two 3 star grit routes. After a while the belayer seemed to concede and suggested to his mate Callum that they call it a day.

The climber seemed totally unconvinced and I suggested to him that the next person passing by would be far less likely to be so reasonable and polite. I checked on the pair from the top of the crag 10 mins later and they were no longer climbing, they seemed to have taken our advice. Unfortunately we spotted them 3 hours later leaving the crag heading for the car park, who knows what further damage they caused.

I have provided links to the photos I took, someone must know these two and they both need to realise that their behaviour is totally unacceptable. I mentioned that I would post the photos on UKC, the belayer unconcerned replied to his mate 'smile for the camera'

I'm a proud Peak local and have never witnessed such a blatant disregard for local and national ethics, I'm sure many others will feel similarly enraged by this.

Gareth
Link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/54759674@N08/?saved=1

In reply to Gareth H:

I wish people would realise that dry tooling is just aid climbing with ice axes - Axes are for ice - fingers are for rock.

Cheers


Andy

In reply to Gareth H:

Frigging Southerners ! Obviously couldnt be arsed to travel all the way to scotland.. Well done mate for being "reserved", cant say i would have been too happy myself....

They need to be named and shamed !

In reply to Redsetter:


Is a name and a photo not good enough?



E

In reply to Enty:
No. Stringing them up by the goolies is still not good enough

In reply to Enty: Alright a public flogging then !!! And there "mates" informed of there actions

In reply to Gareth H:
What a pair of tools! Well done for saying something!

In reply to Gareth H: I agree with your sentiments entirely however I cant stop myself laughing about the fact they appear to be carrying ice screws to top rope a gritstone crack in the Peak. (Im reckoning over 500 replies to this thread)

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

I have to agree - what a bunch of tools - I guess they will come to regret this. I bet this thread lasts a week and breaks 500 posts.

E

In reply to L.A.:

Whooooooooooooooo - wierd!

E

In reply to Enty: didnt spot that in the "picks" what a couple of screws!

In reply to Gareth H: while I agree with you , people here in the lakes have been scratching up classic 3 rock route for years.One particular route snicker snacker on gable caused quite a uproar when it was climbed a few years ago.Here all summer rock routes are fair game for a winter ascent as long as it has a bit of frost on it its in winter condition according to some people.

In reply to Wee Davie: Axes look similar could well be, what a pair of pricks....

In reply to Gareth H:

I bet he doesnt show his face in this thread, put it that way.

In reply to Dan Lane: If he Does...it think he will be virtually naparmed

In reply to Gareth H: What a total set of plonkers. I hope they haven't done too much permenant damage. well done for saying something, I was only joking earlier on about dry tooling London wall not realising that some idiotic people think its actually acceptable!!

In reply to Gareth H:

Bloody hell i thought it was a wind up ,

In reply to Wee Davie: Yep that looks like him, scottish accent, very young and ill informed.

I forgot to add that I said 'so if right wall had a sprinkling of snow on it would it be fair game?' to which he replied yes. He was a real obnoxious prat and I would like to say that his deft axe placements wouldn't result in any damage, however sadly this was not the case.

Very sad.

In reply to Gareth H: You did well controlling yourself and staying calm bud.

In reply to Gareth H: Ah Gentlemen of the vertical world ...time to take up arms and head for cannons!

In reply to Gareth H:

The issue was raised of people drytooling or 'winter' climbing grit at a BMC Peak Area Meeting this time last year. I said I didn't think it was a big enough problem to merit any need for guidelines. But having seen this. and other threads since the meeting, I was probably wrong.

It's amazing what complete and utter morons there are about.

What makes it even more annoying is that there is actually excellent winter climbing to be had in the Peak today. We were on Back Tor at 2am and it was fantastic and many other have been playing on it and Mam Tor today. Grrr....

Danny

In reply to Gareth H:

I reckon it's a troll. Good one if it is though. Bon effort and obviously some time went into it (although that chap does seem to have deleted his profile...)

If it's not I don't really see a massive problem. The main one being that they were top roping, which i'd have a problem with if they were in rock boots. The UKC pictures show millstone to be in condition, so as long as care is taken, fair enough really.

In reply to Andy Kassyk:

I completely agree dry tooling really messes up the rock even on the mountains but to dry tool on God's rock is a sin. These characters need sorting out!!!

In reply to Gareth H:

Well done for tackling these idiots.
Dry tooling is a questionable activity in the mountains yet alone on God's rock.

In reply to Franco Cookson: I agree with Franco here the main problem is the top roping. Why not lead it there well in condition and should be viewed as a new challenge that doesn't come about very often.

In reply to Christheclimber:

It's not dry tooling. You may be opposed to winter climbing, and that's a perfectly understandable position, but you are incorrect to refer to climbing at millstone at the moment as drytooling.

In reply to Christheclimber: Doesnt look like they got very far from the pics. What a pair of fannies.

In reply to Franco Cookson: From those pics - that would be dry tooling. Hardly any snow or ice. I dont know the route however, so it could be well iced up above them.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


Would anyone waste such a nice day to do something so ridiculous?

In reply to Franco Cookson: Even if it is a troll, I think its wise to err on the side of caution and condemn these practises to deter would-be copycat behaviour.

In reply to drunken monkey:
He looks like he's about to mess his pants in the third pic, and he's only a foot off the ground!!
So Callum, what do you reckon, VIII,9 with one rest?

In reply to Franco Cookson: A troll it is not i'm afraid, I have neither the time or inclination to make up stories. I can assure you as I did have a look, the cracks were not iced much and I considered it 'dry tooling', even if it was 'in winter nick' (which it wasn't) its not on and I find it a shame that you think it is.

I should have had a closer look at the rock and seen what kind of damage will have been done, powder snow or even a tiny amount of ice does little or nothing to protect gritstone or any rock.

In reply to Gareth H: Rule number 1 and 2 of drytooling:

1. Don't get caught
2. Don't touch Gods own rock

In reply to Gareth H:

I've heard that there were people dry tooling on Bowfull Buttress today! And what's worse they were doing it when snow was on the holds, so they were scratching around all over the shop because they couldn't see where the placements were.

This is an outrageous thing to do to a "Classic Rock" route. I'm going to the next Lakes Area meeting to complain!

In reply to Oceanic: going to an area meet to complain won't stop these practises. naming and shaming people on here wil have more effect and I laud the OP for posting these pictures to shame these idiots. anytihng less than this is pointless.

In reply to Gareth H:

Looking from a neutral standpoint, both rock climbers and winter climbers can be blamed for damaging rock. Rock climbers can also be blamed for damaging mixed routes through turf removal, which is often essential to climb a route in winter. Mixed climbers don't make routes impossible for rock climbers, but merely affect aesthetics. Please don't cast your own judgements about 'what is on' as if they are facts.

In reply to Gareth H:
I'd rather this didn't happen. But it does in the mountains now (on better routes than those) and seems to be accepted. If the cracks were well iced, it's a rare opportunity (if they weren't, it's just stupid) and to be honest, if we continue to have very cold winters for the next few years I can see it becoming accepted in the quarries.

Having said all that, there are many more suitable (read chossy) quarries in the peak.

In reply to Oceanic: Please be clear I am not debating the rights or wrongs of winter climbing,lets leave that for other threads to do. I am however deploring the actions of 2 climbers on 1 crag today, whose actions I would hope many would not condone.

In reply to Oceanic: people have been dry tooling here in the lakes for years see my posting above snicker snacker on gable classic 3star e3 now a winter route done by a regular poster on here does regular updates on lakes condition .

In reply to Franco Cookson: the fact remains that Millstone is and will continue to be a rock climbing venue regardless of its history. there is no established dry tooling or winter climbing history associated with the crag and ethics based on this history prevail.

these guys were wrong to attempt to climb here using tools, full stop.

In reply to neil0968:

I'm yet to hear an argument against winter climbing that can not also be applied to summer climbing. And many of the routes up on gable are better winter routes than summer routes!

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

First of all. Al's photo shows that winter climbing has occurred here for years.

Secondly, the absence of winter climbing is no reason to stop the introduction of it. If we worked on a purely 'first come, first served' basis, we'd have no scottish or lakes mixed, sport climbing or indeed trad routes replacing aid routes. A weak argument.

In reply to Gareth H:

Wow, what a bummer to hear about this. I wonder if it would be useful to try and put out a statement about proper practice, such as from the BMC, to help raise a little awareness - some people clearly aren't well informed...

Although only a theory, I would say you'll see a lot more of this over the coming years with the advent of indoor dry tooling and the increasing popularity of climbing making for a more dispersed (and less informed) community (at times)... if that makes sense?

In reply to Gareth H:

Tossers. They should feel nothing but shame.

In reply to Franco Cookson: one picture taken years ago doesn't mean that it has a history of winter climbing nor does it serve to condone the selfish idiotic actions of others.

I am not against winter climbing as I am a winter climber too but what I do disagree with is the fact that people think its acceptable to drytool a grit quarry because its a quarry.

In reply to mlt:



Sadly, I think you're right.

In reply to Ander:

The ice screw tells the story. Losers.

Franco Cookson: "Looking from a neutral standpoint...........". the day that happens franco ukc will be a much duller place.
whats all this about gods own rock ? has somebody checked with him ? what would the devil choose ? if somebody can have a qucik word with either can they ask what happened to that callum chappie ? would have been intresting to hear his thought. then he got vapourised.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Don't be a wally Franco. Very few get bothered about mixed climbing on mountain crags because they are mountain crags. A quarry a minute from the car park is not a mountain crag. I'm sure there is some snow on most crags around the UK currently, it doesn't mean they are "in condition" for mixed climbing. Actually they are just out of condition for normal climbing.

If folk find an ice fall down a crag, I don't think anyone is going to get het up about folk taking the chance to climb it. But trying to climb millstone routes with axes is just sad.

In reply to Ander:

Just the one screw and not even a BD turbo. What a total loooooser!

In reply to Gareth H:

I wish I'd caught the little shits you did well to stay calm. People joke about this kind of thing I can't believe that prick actually went ahead with it. If you can't see the difference between tooling on a snowy millstone and a frozen bowfell then you are a f*cking moron. And you franco, why don't you just grow up or are you still not getting enough attention at home?

In reply to bobert: Sorry but the guy tied on in this photo. His face... His expression... Makes me want to punch it! And i'm not a violent type. http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/54759674@N08/5234641415/sizes/l/

In reply to bobert:

Totally agree. I will be keeping an eye out for that mug on the crags, though he'd be a fool to show his face round here any time soon.

In reply to Gareth H: literally all the gear and absolutely no idea!

In reply to bobert:

I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling that!

In reply to bomb:

I'm naming and shaming this tosser for dry tooling on snowy rock...

http://www.scottishclimbs.com/wiki/FileaveMacLeodAnubisFWA.jpg

Go on Bomb, you beat him up!

In reply to Franco Cookson: so crampons axes do'nt damage the rock .3 star summer routes should be left alone not just here in the lakes but everywhere in the uk

In reply to Gareth H: if he was any good it wouldnt be so bad. and unless my eyes device me those arent even new quarks. tool

In reply to Franco Cookson:

No Franco, winter climbing has not occured here for years. That picture was taken about 35 years ago, (I was there).
Since that picture was taken, those conditions have returned once I recall, about 10 years ago, and those conditions have not returned since.
So twice in 35 years not make Peak Grit a Winter climbing venue.

The reason it is such a famous picture, and it got into into Crags was because winter climbing doesn't happen on grit. Green Death happened to be coated with a good 3 inches of ice, and Tom would not have touched it if there was a possibility of his tools damaging the rock. The conditions were so rare as to be newsworthy. On that day we were all looking for similar lines to climb, but there were none that were completely covered in ice. We all knew that all the other routes were out.

To say that winter climbing has been done on Peak Grit for years, is at worst arrogant, and at best ignorant.

In reply to Oceanic:

You actually have no idea do you?

In reply to Gareth H: Why the hell these knobbers needed to go all the way to the Peak to damage rock, there is miles of chalk they can chop up with their axes and ice screws an hour from London on the South Coast

In reply to Fredt: Arrogant and ignorant? Pretty much sums him up.

In reply to bomb: Which is kinda how your sounding right about now......

In reply to Fredt: I'm arrogant, not ignorant. I know someone who did london wall around 15 years ago and no doubt many other people have winter climbed there over the years. So yes, people have climbed up there for years, obviously not every year, but many.

Times change.

In reply to Gareth H:

What a couple of divs.

Was it a certain UKC poster of the same name who's always banging on about bolting mountain routes and generally being ignored by everyone? He certainly seems to fit the type.

In reply to Gareth H: they have been doing green deathm super direct for years and dont seem to give a shite about all the crampon marks they leave

In reply to Gareth H:
Ugly and stupid

In reply to Rjukan:

Being hugely pissed off at some moron trashing a nationally important rock climbing venue because it has some snow on it is arrogant and ignorant? Am i missing the bigger picture then?

In reply to bomb:

hugely pissed off

nationally important rock climbing venue

I reckon there are bigger pictures, yeah.

In reply to Franco Cookson: so if someone climbed up one of your projects in winter with ice gear you wouldnt be a little miffed about it?you change you tune to suit what your climbing on a particular month!!

In reply to bomb:

Maybe you could help me out by explaining?

http://eatingjellyfish.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Narwhals.jpg

In reply to Franco Cookson:

I know you enjoy the wind up, but what you have to take into account is how easily grit and other soft rocks are damaged by tools and poons.
Eric9points has a photo of the wear and tear caused by winter gear at Newtyle Quarry. I've seen it first hand too, and been DT'ing there a good few times.
Newtyle Quarry (or Birnam as it otherwise known) is slate. The difference in hardness between grit and slate is massive. A handful of cack handed ascents of anything on grit and you will see GOUGES not light scratches down the rock.

In reply to beastofackworth: He's got to maintain the controversial standpoint to go with the extreme grades and lifestyle that he leads, don't you know.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

And another thing, DT'ing at Birnam is accepted by the vast majority of climbers. It's a chossy crag and no loss to rock climbing.
Millstone? I've never been, but looking at pics it looks a nice venue.

What a pair of tools

In reply to Mr Powly:

Millstone not a nationally important venue then mate?

Masters Edge, London Wall, Edge Lane, Bond Street, Great North Road, Great Portland Street, Regent Street to name but a few. Heard of them? I think there's enough there to get worked up about.

Theres a trend. The more walls and media coverage, the more people climb. The more people climb, the more dickheads get involved. The more dickheads get involved, the more shit like this happens. The more shit like this happens the more wankers start backing it up and saying its ok. It is not ok. Dry tooling at Millstone is not ok. It never has been ok. Green death was not dry tooling. Great slab was not dry tooling. Crowds of people crawling around a soggy mam tor dropping rocks on each other and belaying off snowboards is not ok, people climbing fingers ridge with tools when it is bare of snow just because it is a winter route is not ok. I'm not going to apologise for being angry because I love climbing, i love winter climbing, I love grit, and I can't stand the way things are going, and if you're happy sitting on the fence devoid of any kind of backbone one way or another then thats fine, but don't expect people who actually really care about it to keep quiet.

In reply to Gareth H: Well done for raising your concerns mate and posting on here (esp with photos).
I'm not in favour of the 'dry tooling' type climbing that happens nowadays, however, this aside....even if i was Millstone is certainly not the place to be doing it. I agree with the arguements that this is out of order.

Franco....your points that times change is fair enough but this is a step too far on this one.

In reply to Gareth H:

Are scratches in a quarry...bad?

In reply to Oceanic:
Bowfell Butress is also a classic ice route. I climbed bowfell butress direct and there was no tool damage. So I suggest that if you have an issue with winter climbing on said butress, you take the direct rock route.

In reply to neil0968:

Gritstone has a hard outer skin, and can be quite soft and fraible underneath it. After southern sandstone, I think it's perhaps the least suitable rock in the UK to dry tool or winter climb on, or it's amongst the least suitable.

It's in reply to you, but more in reply to the thread in general really.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to bomb: Just because someone doesn't start talking about thumping someone for doing something that you don't agree with doesn't mean they don't care, it just means there not being a tw@ about it. You have a different opinion to someone else doesn't make you right and them wrong.

In reply to johang:

http://eatingjellyfish.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Narwhals.jpg

Ain't no hoofs on that bitch!

In reply to Gareth H:

I'm calling troll, wind up or whatever.

A very good one though to hook a poster into threatening violence.

The photos all look too posed, there are no photos of a climber established on a route, only "starting" and you have not provided evidence of any damage done.

An elaborate but imperfect hoax. 8/10

Next time lower the climber from the top of the crag to the upper half of the route to pose, then scratch some stones and take close up photo's

In reply to 3leggeddog: so your saying that they should go and destroy a route as proof?hmmm arent you a tw*t?

In reply to Oceanic: lol wut?

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Anyone familiar with Fishy's posts will know he's well capable of having done it.

What a tosser.

In reply to Southern Man:

Yes - two people spotted this early on when this thread started - unfortunately links to his profile have been moderated. It was the same chap.

E

In reply to Gareth H:
I did something similar the other day. I bought my first cam in shops and was so busting to try it out, I needed to go for poo quickly when I got home. Then i put my cam in brick joint and all afternoon was pulling on it and tied and leaning out on it.

In reply to beastofackworth:

Re read my post matey. I suggested ways to set up really convincing photos. At no point did I suggest "destroying a route"

In reply to bomb:

Keep your hair on mate! There are some nice routes there yeah, I'm just amazed (impressed!) at how angry you're managing to get about it. If you're this close to giving yourself a haemorrhage of some kind over people hitting a (nationally important) rock with the wrong shaped bit of metal, what are you like when something that's actually important happens?!

In reply to Gareth H:

Dry tooling. Masturbation for people who can't get any real climbing.

In reply to birdie num num:

wrong bit of metal, wrong sort of rock, that kind of thing can get you in real trouble!

In reply to Gareth H: im supprised this has not happended before to be honest, infact i would go as far as to say ,. i bet it has!!!!! sad times!!!!

In reply to Gareth H:

C'mon, this has to be a troll.

jcm

In reply to 3leggeddog:
I take posting pictures of someone who may then become the subject of quite a lot of flak quite seriously, obviously the moderators are taking a careful line with any mention of the guys name which I understand due to the ill feeling (rightly so) the thread has generated.

I would not make up some rubbish to stir up negative feelings against someone I don't know. Its up to you if you believe it, I was there, as were my wife, sister in law and another couple who by their reaction were climbers. 4 friends later saw them walking back from the crag with axes and crampons.

If you don't believe me thats your choice, I won't be losing sleep over it. The matter in question is that 2 plonkers are obviously ill educated enough to consider that dry tooling a quality gritstone crag is acceptable.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Who?

me?

fishy?

both?

Some posters obviously weren't taught how to argue very well were they.

You resort to insults, you have lost
You get personal, you have lost
You threaten or carry out violence, you have lost

One day you will thank me for that

In reply to Gareth H:

http://content.backcountry.com/images/items/large/GRV/GRV0066/ADZE.jpg

Check out the horn on that mother f****er!

In reply to abr1966:


wonder how long it will stay a 5 star photo

In reply to Gareth H: muppetry of the highest order...essentially an example of lazyness and inexperience! Good shout for telling them where to go!

In reply to andy moles:

It isn't a quarry anymore

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Are you on drugs?

Fishy is the old user name of THE tosser this thread is about. My point was that anyone who ever read HIS posts will know this is not a troll.

I didn't call you a tosser before, i didn't get personal either, nor did i threaten to carry out violence (WTF???).

Mind you, i now think you are either an A class idiot or someone with a paranoid disorder.

Good day

In reply to redcal:

Perhaps it's not lazyness, it might just not have just occured to them, people don't always think along the same lines.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to 3leggeddog:

ok my bad,tw*t tag retracted

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Calm down pal, I misinterpretted your post, I was unsure who the insult was aimed at.
You misinterpretted my post, the threats comment was aimed at the keyboard warrior above, the personal at those critcising the aesthetic appeal of the young gent in question.

Good Day to you too

In reply to Wee Davie: Spot on! I think that's the only solid argument that can be made that really sums up why people shouldn't winter climb on gritstone - the rock is so much softer than that of any mountain crags (like Lakes and Scotlnad) climbed in winter.

There are always threads popping up regarding winter climbing in the Lakes and Scotland, where people have placed an emphasis on ensuring routes in these areas are in condition before climbing them to prevent scratch marks, so naturally it would be fair to assume this would have a greater importance if people were considering winter climbing on gritstone. Of course, if the crag was covered in 3 inches of ice that makes a big difference! But these conditions aren't really observed anymore in the Peak, like is evident in the picture shown of Tom Proctor back in the 1970's, which is why it's not acceptable for those 2 to climb at millstone currently.

However, it would be cool if people could suggest some quarries in the Peak that might make some good winter climbing that don't see much attention in the summer, and might be considered acceptable to climb in winter... for a new thread maybe...

In reply to beastofackworth:

I thank you, most noble of you sir

In reply to 3leggeddog:

Ok, sorry for that. It just seemed you threw a mouthful at me for no apparent reason...

In reply to Gareth H:


We were the "other couple" - it's no troll I'm afraid. And the state of Millstone today was nothing like the picture from 1986.

In reply to woolsack:

Disused quarry, whatever.

In reply to heleno: thank you for confirming this, I can understand people being incredulous about what happened but didn't really expect anyone to doubt what happened. What really concerned me was that they stayed for at least another 3 hours before leaving, had I known they were continuing we would have popped back as we were up at Owler tor bouldering.

In reply to Mr Lopez, beastofackworth, 3leggeddog :

Ha ha - I was watching your spat and wondering how all 3 of of you managed to get the wrong end of the stick - glad you sorted it.

E

In reply to heleno:

OK, I'm convinced. And to be fair it's been very well prepared, since as several have pointed out the gentleman in question has been very assiduous in establishing himself as a knob over a long period of time. So if it is a troll one does have to salute the workmanship.

jcm

In reply to andy moles:

Please keep your inane, north of the border comments to yourself.
You obviously know nothing about the place.

In reply to Enty: I have Callums address in Inverness having recently sent him a shunt (for free!) I didnt need.

Though nobody should threaten violence especially if they look like theyve been turfed out of their wheelchair.

In reply to fred99:

What has living north of the border got to do with it? There are quarries in Scotland as well you know.

In reply to Fawksey:

You never know. Violence can never be condoned but have you ever heard of being 'battered good looking'?

In reply to Fawksey:

Agree - I'm hoping the violence stuff is a little bit exagerated.
Anyway - You'll get banned for mentioning his name pal.

E

In reply to Wee Davie:

Set on fire and put out with a cricket bat?

E

In reply to Oceanic:

Not very original mate, seen that one long ago I'm afraid.

In reply to Enty: Is it like saying Jehovah? I didnt know there was a restriction on naming the first name of someone thats profile is linked into a thread with thier name underneath it?

Its not liek its a picture of my dick (again)

In reply to andy moles:

Millstone is a special crag, because of the steepness of the rock and the cracks which continute all the way up from the ground, it could be the only gritstone crag like it, a lot of the routes are very technical and some of them have been ground breaking in thier difficulty.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to Gareth H:

Quality troll?

People have climbed winter routes in grit quarries for years. The old Chew valley guide which came out in the 80s - Dovestones quarry etc.

Wouldnt do it myself like, as I wouldnt want to piss people off, but Millstone is a quarry.

In reply to Fawksey:

hahaha! You are absolutely correct. As i said i am not a violent person, only the photo brought out an uncharacteristic urge to enter Bash Mode..

In reply to Fawksey:

Oh I thought that link had been deleted by the mods - it was earlier on. soz mate.

E

In reply to Gareth H:

Just in case it is the world's best troll (and you and Heleno are involved)
I'm just going to say It's a belter.

E

In reply to tanssop:

Come on think about it. That old "its a quarry" line is absolutely absurd. Its a superb crag, forget whether its quarried or not. Surely a crag should be judged on how good it is, not its creation?! Great slab at froggatt is quarried, would you dry tool that? There is a difference between a tottering heap of shit in summer that forms reasonable winter routes, and Millstone.

In reply to Gareth H:

Wouldn't it be great if the two people in the photos came on here, held up their hands and said "Sorry. We have made a big mistake, we are young and inexperienced, and we have learned a lot from the reaction to our deeds. We won't make the same mistake again".

Wouldn't it be wonderful to be able to draw the line, end all this (understandable) anger, and all go to bed with a warm glow instead?

In reply to Enty:

I actually think that dry tooling should be banned on all crags except those where it is specifically permitted. ie Banned by default and permitted by specific exception agreed by the BMC.

In reply to Gareth H:

I retract all my comments as it seems this http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=434867&v=1#x6139191
is the guy involved, and he actually seems like a really nice chap, and not at all like a complete clown.

In reply to bomb:

Oi! I do the irony round here thankyou!

In reply to andy moles:

Quite simple.
Why on earth is a young kid such as yourself, living a considerable distance away north of the border, commenting on one of our classic English quarries in such a derogatory manner.

Or are you intending coming down south to try top-roped dry-tooling yourself ?

In reply to tanssop:

You have to differentiate between ice climbing and rock climbing under snow. Very occasionally, ice forms down green death at millstone, and it was on one such occasion that Tom Proctor TRd the route using ice climbing gear.

Rock routes, particularly in the peak should be left to the rock climbers. Mountaineers have plenty of mountains and large vegetated crags to go at.

Wear and tear on established rock routes is already bad enough without ignorant dry toolers adding to the erosion.

If you are rock climbing under snow, I fail to see why you need to use axes anyway. It's just like taping sky hooks to your finger. If the holds are to small, then accept that you ain't good enough to do the route.

Simples

In reply to Oceanic:

That was sarcasm. I think.

In reply to bomb:


I wouldnt do it, no. But what I meant was that what is the difference between one quarry and another? And people were arguing with Franco that there is no history of doing winter grit quarry routes, which just isn't true.

If you like quarries that's fine. I don't particularly, even though I have climbed in them. It's all subjective really. I dislike Froggatt too, well over-rated. Give me the Chew any day of the week.

In reply to Gareth H: Well done for posting. This is no hoax as I was bouldering at Mother Cap when Gareth told us what he had seen. We were all up for heading down to let our sentiments be known but we believed they had already left. Unfortunately this may not be the case.

I believe it is a selfish act by those not concerned about damaging something others passionately care about - even after they were told (if they didn't already know). Unfortunately their level of maturity didn't enable them to agree and pack up - they carried on regardless. For me this is the biggest problem after being asked not to by more than one group, simply bad attitude and no consideration. No excuses really. I wonder if they would have the courage to either admit they were wrong or give reasons why they think it's fair game to attempt a gritstone classic on a top rope in full winter gear (carrying an ice screw)? I doubt it.

In reply to Gareth H:
What disturbs me most is how fat and soft the climber looks. Like a giant toddler in a Scholler romper suit.

In reply to tanssop:

Blimey. The difference between one quarry and another is that one may be of no value to rock climbing but pretty good for winter, whilst another might be invaluable to rock climbing, pointless in winter, and anyone trying to tool up it risks breaking holds and gear placements, and ruining amazing routes. High Tor and Mam Tor are both natural crags, if you see where i'm coming from. Just because something is a quarry, does not mean its open to tooling. Try going to Pex and saying otherwise.

In reply to Gareth H: Not wanting to play devils advocate, but your personal ethics say it's wrong, the guys in question obviously disagree. No matter what the ins and outs of it, it's your tough luck they can (and obviously have) do what they like.

In reply to Gareth H:

I may have been that passing climber. I too met Callum and his friend today as I walked along the bottom of Millstone this pm. I offered some choice opinions on their toproping of routes on Embankment, and seethed for the rest of our walk this afternoon. If anyone doubts the authenticity of this - please see my linked picture below.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bad-altitude/5235339921/

In reply to bomb:

As I said, who decides what is of value? - its subjective. I thought Millstone was crap (partly cos I'm too crap to get up most routes!).

I wouldn't bother myself. Would much rather go the mountains. I am playing devils advocate in a way.

In reply to tanssop:

>And people were arguing with Franco that there is no history of doing winter grit quarry routes, which just isn't true.

What's the matter with you? Do you really not understand the difference between winter climbing and dry tooling?

jcm

In reply to tatty112:

>No matter what the ins and outs of it, it's your tough luck they can (and obviously have) do what they like.

Oh for goodness' sake grow up. By that token I can just chip holds on any route I like.

jcm

In reply to bomb:

This callum nicoll seems to be active on this forum ,so maybe he will be along soon to put his side forward.he must be aware of this thread by now

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

May I refer you to

"Moorland Gritstone - Chew Valley" BMC 1988 pages 285-286

and the below link

http://www.chewcrags.co.uk/news.shtml

(scroll down)

And yes, I do understand the difference, read what I have written... Do you understand that?

In reply to 3leggeddog:

not at all,if im wrong i dont mind saying so

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: You can and no one can stop you, but you don't because your personal ethics tell you it's not acceptable.

In reply to mark s:

Assuming he does, I'd like to assume he'd like an explanation as to why people are getting all hot and bothered.

Calum, it goes like this:

Gritstone has a hard "crust", but is generally very soft underneath. Once that soft centre is exposed (say, by scratches from an ice axe), it erodes due to weather very, very quickly. "Disintegrates" is not too harsh a term. Pop along to Baildon Bank and see what happens to Grit when the crust goes - essentially it falls apart.

Millstone is a nationally important venue, and particularly the bit you were on is a unique bit of rock with a nature which is not replicated anywhere I know of in the UK. We've not got a vast amount of rock in the UK - not compared with the likes of Spain, US, etc - and hence taking care of what we have an preserving it for both ourselves and future climbers is something most climbers are concerned about.

So basically you were, for your own enjoyment, selfishly risking trashing a nationally important and unique bit of rock.

Which is why the comments on the forum are as they are.

Please take care and try to think about what you are doing, and try and learn a bit about the nature of the rock and the ethics generally held by climbers before you start swinging an ice axe around. Gritstone is, although rock, quite fragile in some ways, and has to be handled with care to avoid damage. You were not taking care.

In reply to SteveM:

Wow, in your photo, is that their tent? Did they camp out overnight and then go toprope dry tooling? If they did then that's amazing! Adventures like that just don't happen anymore in this country..........

The new rad tool for this winter is........ homo sapiens.

I look forward to an article in Trail, about making the transition to the 'real thing'. Why live in the dirt with the sheep when you could fly with eagles like these two? Perhaps a sympathetic interview by Franco is in order. I'd read it .

Steve

Steve

In reply to Gareth H:
Presumably by the way this is a reason not to post articles with pictures like the ones at the bottom of this one?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=59251

It does look in that like it would be properly iced up in the cracks, but that was the day before - on saturday things were melting. (Whether that would have made it any more acceptable, I'm not sure.)

In reply to Gareth H: Looks like this http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3273 was too much to resist.

q. What is a bloke from Inverness doing in the Peak when conditions in Scotland are so good?

In reply to John_Hat:

The route in Gareth's photo is a crack produced by by pegging, on a slab produced by quarrying.

In reply to Oceanic:

And by that bit of perverse logic, murder is only snuffing out an egg and a bit of sperm

In reply to woolsack:

My point related to the mythical "gritstone crust".

In reply to Oceanic:

Good point.

In reply to Oceanic:

It wouldn't matter if the whole thing was installed by the council in the 70's. What matters is that it has a lot of interest and importance to a lot of people now and for the foreseeable future, and to permenantly jeopardize that so that you can tit around with axes without being bothered to get to one of the large number of places where they can legitimately do the same thing without upsetting anyone is, to put it mildly, a bit antisocial.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

My point related to the mythical "gritstone crust".

In reply to tanssop:

Firstly, just because it used to be done, doesn't mean its ok now. Otherwise Millstone would be full of people pegging their way up London Wall. Times change and what matters is consensus; if we had a vote, I think you'd lose. Heavily.

Secondly, define 'Quarry'. Most of the Eastern edges have been quarried. Ever heard of Stanage?

In reply to Oceanic:

And? What's your point?

In reply to jonny2vests:
This has a sharp point...

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.geek.com/wp-content/upload...

Before I sound like I'm condoning what they've done, I'm not. I've got no experience of winter/dry tooling but in any walk of life it takes a certain sort of person to show such blatant disregard for what is important to a lot of other people.

But Oceanic has a point - Why hasn't the whole of Millstone disintegrated if the 'crust' has been taken off it by quarrying?

Either way, swinging an axe at rock doesn't sound like it's going to do it a whole lot of good.

In reply to jonny2vests:

That there shouldn't be a hard outer crust on Millstone as it stands.

In reply to Oceanic:
You're a bit of a stroker thats joking about something thats not worth joking about. Sod off to the pub forum if you can't take it seriously.

In reply to Southern Man:

What? Explain.

In reply to Oceanic:

Mate the whole narwhal thing was very funny when whoever did it first did it, but its not funny now. Sorry.

In reply to mark s:

I very much doubt he has the balls, though reading some of his previous posts shows he definitely has the arrogance.

In reply to jonny2vests:

I wouldn't encourage climbing the Embankment routes with axes, but it's not 6 foot high graffiti along the bottom of Froggatt is it?

The real point to me is that climbing ethics are by their very nature ridiculous. Several people don't seem to have grasped the irony behind my comments about Bowfell Buttress, Anubis and Green Death, so how can they complain that two young lads can't see why it's okay to use axes at Dovestones Quarry but not at Millstone?

This thread is incredibly self righteous, it reminds me of another infamously self righteous thread which sparked a non-serious reaction.

http://blue-straggler.net/narwhal_troll.png

In reply to Oceanic:

Seriously if you don't get it, then you're not very smart. If you do get it and are just trying to play devil's advocate, then piss off and do it somewhere else. This thread is not self righteous, its about people getting angry about a couple of arrogant little shits trashing one of the best climbing spots in the Peak. If you really can't understand that, then you can't really be a climber. Can you?

In reply to Gareth H:
>


Its not uncommon, year upon year - but as a BMC Access Rep I agree with you about the disregard that selfish people will stick two fingers up to those who want to protect the landscape, ethics & heritage...

Those who choose tho ruin & degrade the landscape where I live & play deserve all they get from the voicing masses.

si

In reply to Simon:

So polishing trad climbers diserve abuse?

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Surely to feck you're not still arguing this pair of ****s are doing no harm?

In reply to Oceanic:

Whats graffiti got to do with it. Its wrong, plain and simple.


So you'd rather have no ethics? No consensus? Anarchy?


Bowfell Buttress - an established summer and winter venue.
Anubis - ditto, and its Granite!
Green Death - people have done it in the past in full winter conditions.

You don't seem to have grasped that dry-tooling the Embankment cracks is not comparable to any of these.


Why is it? Its about as straightforward as right and wrong gets in British climbing. Its not complicated - you cant dry-tool mega classic grit cracks, end of. Whats self righteous about that? If you want to stick up for dry-tooling at Millstone, then try proposing it at the next BMC peak meet and we'll see how much support you get.

In reply to Franco Cookson:


I'm not sure I understand? Its not the first time.

Si

In reply to tatty112:

If your point is that people can behave like total arses and that no-one can stop them by posting on a computer, then I can only congratulate you on your wisdom. If you had any other point to make, then I'm afraid I haven't understood it.

jcm

In reply to tanssop:

And you think this is the same as winter climbing at Dovestones Quarry? Seriously? Have you ever been to Dovestones?! Or Millstone indeed.

jcm

In reply to Simon:

I think his point is that all human activity causes erosion and therefore no human activity which causes erosion can be criticised.

Aren't you at university, Franco? Fair to say you're not studying logic, I would suggest.

jcm

In reply to woolsack: Haha we dry tool on southern chalk, it's fun.But if we went and did what these two were doing we'd expect to be shot or lynched.In one photo it look's like he's got three tool's in the crack?
You can't go to someone else's turf and start taking the piss.Anyway,why were they using tool's anyway?

In reply to Southern Man:

Millstone should no less have a hard crust (patina) than any other crag. The patina forms once the surface is exposed to air, since it is an oxide layer. This layer (think of it as rust) would form, naturally and constantly for crags that are eroded, or over some considerable period (I don't know exactly how long, but we're probably talking tens of years), for crags that were quarried.

The point is, that if you bash away at it with something sharp (saaaaaay, an ice tool, for example) and then come and climb on it, with fingers and feet, soon after, the damaged areas will erode and grow. These areas of erosion are very obvious in places where there has been recent damage or chipping, there was a thread about it on here or UKB a while back.

Anybody that has a "feel" for grit understands how soft it is. On reflection, that is probably what made it such an ideal grinding stone. The coarser fragments of parent rock which are harder, are cemented in a softer matrix of finer rock, which erodes faster, leaving the harder fragments exposed, much like a diamond impregnated rock drill bit works.

The bottom line is there is a significant difference using metal things on grit, to harder rocks or rocks that nobody cares about, and it should be avoided.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Yes, I've been to both. Neither rank highly in my estimation. But like I said, if you read my posts...

This website is like a religious cult with people who say things like "It says it in the bible, therefore it must be true..."

One commits heresy by daring to suggest that climbing ethics often displays contradictions and hypocracies that would seem strange to the outside (larger) community.

For the benefit of those who can't read - I do not condone dry-tooling on gritstone (or bolts), even in crap quarries. However, some of the arguments used here to argue are based on the logic of ethics that are quite illogical in many ways. That is, if you are able to take a step backwards and think abut it.

And I am glad that someone took them to task in a reasonable way.

I think if any more proof is needed I'm pretty sure that there will be damage done to the two routes concerned, the fact that they continued after at least 2 groups of people spoke to them is disgusting. The second photo of the guy half way up the HVS makes me sick, he would have scraped his way up that with his crampons shoved in the left hand crack.

I wonder is he will dare show his face on here?

In reply to Wee Davie:

Last winter i'm pretty sure there were pictures floating around of "moors first winter ascents" on sandstone crags in the north of england.

Franco has an agenda.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: My point is that two lads can behave like arsholes at millstone and no one can stop them either by whining on the computer or actually being there at Millstone. As soon as you lay a hand on them trying to stop them you'd be the one in the proverbial sheite, their breaking no laws they are simply being idiots.

In reply to Gareth H:

I suspected this might happen with all the 'Peak in winter nick' hysteria.

Sad!

It took years for the crampon marks to fade at the start of Green Death, if this becomes popular these routes will be ruined in no time. Where next, Froggatt, Stanage, Bamford?


Chris

In reply to tatty112: They will probably not do it again though if they read all of this and possibly others who might not have known any better. This raises the issue and it is clearly considered overwhelmingly by almost everybody here (even those seeking to argue side issues admit that they wouldn't do it. This draws a big line underneath the issue of dry tooling gritstone - don't do it it's not accepted.

In reply to Matt Rees:
>The patina forms once the surface is exposed to air,

Thanks Matt, thought that might be the case. Nice to know it heals itself if left alone for long enough!

In reply to Gareth H:
How have they set up the anchors for the top rope, I`ve done those routes but climbed right to the top, can you in snow and ice walk, scramble to that point to set an anchor?

In reply to tanssop:

>One commits heresy by daring to suggest that climbing ethics often displays contradictions and hypocracies that would seem strange to the outside (larger) community.

I wouldn't call it heresy, exactly. Tired truisms I grant you, certainly.

jcm

In reply to tatty112:

>My point is that two lads can behave like arsholes at millstone and no one can stop them either by whining on the computer or actually being there at Millstone.

I'm not sure about the latter. I think simply removing their anchors would have the desired effect. They don't look like the types to be actually, y'know, leading. Bit too crazee.

Still, your general point that typing on the computer won't stop something that happened yesterday is quite right, no doubt about it. Good spot.

jcm

In reply to Gareth H:

Ive mailed the guy (politely) via his profile, making him aware of this thread and inviting him to respond.

Cheers

David

In reply to Gareth H: I'm not condoing what happened at Millstone, but it looks like I'll be adding dry tooling to my list of phrases to wind up UKCers. Seems that the merest mention of the word gets some folk on here seething.

Who decides on where its ok to dry tool/bolt/rock climb/aid/winter climb? Like I said, I am NOT condoning what has happened, so please no abuse, I'm just asking who decides? Group consensus? And what if you want to do something different, or push the boundaries?

Hasn't climbing always been at progression (both personal progession in ability and experience) and methods of climbing? I'm sure that 60 years ago there would have been similar debates about these young upstarts using belay devices, rubber soled shoes and nuts.

Things change, climbing boundaries move. Get over it. Routes get trashed or polished with every climb.

Have you ever been to Traprain Law? Trad rock climbers have ruined the place. Its a lovely crag, and one of my favourites, but I wish I'd got there 30 years ago before the routes got so polished. It can be a slippery nightmare now. Maybe its time to start tooling some of the routes there? (this is not a serious suggestion btw).

Things move on though, and if more people start to climb, then who has the right to say that they can or can't climb in a style that they want?

Why do I have to go to Spain for decent low to mid grade multipitch bolted routes? Why can't it be done in Scotland?

Who decides on the ethics?

In reply to fred99:

What did I say that was derogatory? Is Millstone a disused quarry or isn't it?

In reply to Oceanic: Are you the guy in the white helmet by any chance?

In reply to tatty112:


Why doesn't it surprise me that to you acceptable public conduct is only a matter of law? [Oh, and it's "they're"]

There are lots of people in this thread nit-picking and muddying the waters, so in case the basic point gets obscured, I want to add my voice to those who say that:

Dry tooling gritstone is totally wrong, and dry tooling on a gritstone crag where many of the routes are complete classics is particularly horrible.

In reply to Gareth H:

drytoolings not wrong. kids dont get killed, it doesnt give people HIV, stalin (probably) wasnt into it.
in the right place (europe somewhere) and with a happy disposition (how about stoned?) its all good.

BUT changing the nature of fragile climbs then being a dick about it is very uncool. both elements are shit alone, together is really poor form.

im pro-drytooling, but not when it makes a scene, damages good summer routes and then has assholes mouthing off.
i dont like the witch-hunting mobs that hate drytooling for ethical reasons theyve never considered and call evil a part of climbing that has its place, but i like wankers who give drytooling the bad name it has even less.

no doubt someone will find something in this to get upset about.

In reply to jacobfinn:


Not sure what is progressive about top roping a VS with tools that has been led by thousands of punters for 40 or 50 years.

In reply to Gareth H:

Can like the likes of Franco and Oceanic and others on this thread please shut the fcuk up?

There are some possible uncomfortably grey areas when it comes to winter ascents in the mountains on snowed up rock routes etc. I grant you.

However tooled up ascents of Millstone in the Peak is NOT one of them. It's tantamount to chipping and outright vandalism.

In reply to ice.solo:
>stalin (probably) wasnt into it.


Oooh we're getting close here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

In reply to ice.solo:

Most reasonable comment on here

In reply to ice.solo:

Trotsky wasn't either! He was heard to say Bloody ice tools, they'll be the death of me!