UKC

I deliberative posted using this title but really I am enquiring amongst uni clubs. As a member of the committee for my uni club and a member of another outside club.

The point in question is that as a uni club we meet at the wall on Mondays and Wednesdays where we use the equipment from the club store. It also use to be acceptable to for instance borrow a harness for when we went to another wall at the weekend or met up at the uni wall outside of the 4 hours allocated to the club. Our union has just decided that they do not want us to use the equipment at any other time. This means that for instance if I want to climb on Friday I cant use the club quickdraws etc.

Do other clubs have similar rules, how have came about, what do you do to get around them ....

cheers

In reply to minus273degrees:
When talking about safety equipment surely a policy of club kit only for club trips/events is reasonable. It's probably down to insurance reasons; if gear it taken away without club officials will it's use always be recorded correctly, will it be abused, what happens if the kit fails while being used outside a club event? if it goes missing will club insurance pay up.

In reply to minus273degrees:

I have to say that seems pretty draconian. Our university club kit can be borrowed by any member, as long as no club events need it. When borrowed, it is the responsibility of the person using it to look after it.

In reply to gethin_allen: That's not the case with other clubs is it? I know of one womens club who allow members to use the club rack whenever they want?

Makes sense? If its safe why not use it.

In reply to minus273degrees:

What exactly have the union said? Who from the union has made this decision and on what basis? Who have they received advice from?

What do you do as a club to record usage of the clubs equipment? When was it last checked by a suitably experienced person? When was it first used? What are your policies for retiring /withdrawing equipment from use?

If you can answer / find out the answers to those questions, you will be a good position to counter the unions idea.

In reply to minus273degrees:

I should also add, that if you are a BMC affiliated club it is well worth approaching Jon Garside at the BMC for kit-related woes. He has helped me out with an expert opinion a couple of times when fighting inane union policy.

In reply to minus273degrees: The last person that took the harness had it in the back of their car for a week sat on a spare car battery ? As you belay the harness fails and your climber falls to the floor. (The actual accident involved an abseiling fatality in millersdale)


Equipment needs to be traced and its use, transport and storeage need to be of an certain standard, why not buy your own gear and that way you can use it whenever you want and know its full history.

In reply to Paul at work:


They just turned around one day and decided we couldn't use it saying we could not take it out of the store outside of club sessions I dont think they have taken advice from anyone


If gear is wanted to be taken out my club members they have to ask a committee member and sign it out (we also proposed that this be countersigned when they brought this in) it doesnt get checked by anyone with a qualification they rely on the club to do (we through alot of gear out when i got there)

In reply to minus273degrees:

This is something that most clubs face every now and then, my opinion of how it works having gone through it with the uni climbing and kayaking clubs and now working in h&s is...

It's fine for people to use club kit outside club events - it should be signed out to them and they need to be aware that what they are signing for is to say that they have carried out a visual inspection and are happy with the condition.

The best way to cover yourselves if there is a problem (as sadly them saying it looked OK isn't enough to cover you if something does break and they try to sue you) is to have a system of inspection at regular intervals that's recorded so that if something comes up you can show that you've inspected it and argue that you've done all that's reasonably possible for you to do to be sure the kit is safe, if someone who is qualified does this then awesome, otherwise just get the gear secs to and see if you can write down what it is they are looking for in case you need to justify your 'inspection'. The chances of this coming up however is really really really small, such a policy should hopefully cover you legally but will have the advantage of hopefully appeasing your union who are probably just terrified of someone suing them.

The issue of people falling on it, here you have to rely on trust and explicitly state when people take out kit that if they fall on it etc then they must tell you (and point out they could be legally liable for the kit failing in future as a result of that fall if they don't inform you).

And obviously when people take kit out that's not on a club trip then if they damage it they replace it, usually a committee member would check it over and sign it back into the store.

This is all a lot harder if you can't restrict access to the store to committee only though (a problem we had with kayaking) as then people are prone to just take the kit, but by having a strict policy and trying your best to enforce it you're doing all you can really.

This is probably overkill compared to how most clubs operate although is good practice for getting used to how such things work in industry!

Good luck with arguing it with your union, it's a pain in the neck for everyone if you can only use kit on club trips.

In reply to minus273degrees:


You need to find out who at the union made the decision? The student president or exec or some of the 'Adult' full time union staff. Ask them for the reasoning behind this. Ask them if and why they have made this decision and if not who they have taken the advice from. If its a non-specialist in climbing, which suspect it is, it would be easy for you to come up with the reasoning to counter the union ruling.



But do you have a central system for your clubs equipment? (Where you have recorded purchase dates, first uses, signing in and out, safety checks and by who etc.) As a club you are just as liable for equipment leant out for your members to use.

In reply to minus273degrees:

If the Union do want to be strict about it, might it be possible to at least get a (non-exclusive) club session on other nights at the wall? At least that way members could climb more and get use of the club kit. (I'm sure there must be other club who train more than twice a week.

In reply to Jaffacake:
You can't really rely on a visual inspection for much with climbing equipment unless it's a simple oh look there's a massive gash in the rope/sling/belay loop or it's all bent out of shape, in which case it's almost a waste of time. Regarding the usage records being a matter of trust, who do you trust? especially when you consider that there is a financial incentive to conceal misuse or even legitimate use resulting in damage because you don't want to/can't afford to pay to replace the gear.

In reply to gethin_allen: You actualy do rely on a visual inspection as well as a tactile check for most fabric items and ropes. This is the Industry/HSE accepted method of checking most items used in the lifting of loads (this includes people)
Aside from setting up slacklines, Tyroleans and towing cars there are very few things you can do to gear that will cause a catastrophic failure in day to day use within a dynamic system. Abrasion is the number one cause for retireing kit in a general climbing scenario.

In reply to minus273degrees:

I can't see where 'insurance worries' might be coming from. If your club is associated to BMC then you are adequately covered against third party claims of negligence. Perhaps the student union doesn't understand this and worries that they might have to pay a negligence claim. If this is the case you should explain clearly that you don't need their insurance as you are already adequately covered by the BMC policy.

In reply to gethin_allen:

Well yeah, that's basically what you're looking for, you can inspect the rope by running it through your hands etc, what you're trying to do is pass on some kind of liability for the condition of the kit to the person borrowing it and getting them to take some responsibility for the kit they use and get into the habit of checking it's up to scratch as far as they can see. If they've signed to say they've inspected it and it fails because of something that should have been obvious (eg, half the wires on a nut are broken) then the club can say that the person taking it out inspected it and was presumably aware of the condition and chose to use it anyway as a partial defence.

To be honest we wouldn't have expected someone to replace gear if they'd had a fall, just want to know so it can be recorded, as we did record such things about our club kit.

I don't know what else you can do other than not allow people to use club kit, which is really annoying for everyone, especially as a uni club with a large in take of beginners, people can't afford all their own racks and ropes at the start and you want people to get out and practice and get better so that they can take out next years freshers. Plus the fact that the kit is there for you to use is a good way to attract members.

I guess I'm looking at what is reasonable practical and what system you can have in place that you can defend as being appropriate and as the best system you could have in place in the circumstances - not to mention regular inspections will hopefully lead you to catching bad kit before an accident.

On club trips the kit can still get damaged and people might not tell you, there's only so much you can do without just not letting anyone use the kit and the whole point of club kit is so that club members can benefit.

By letting anyone use it ever you have a liability, you need to be able to defend your position that you've done all that's reasonable to ensure the kit is safe to use.

In reply to minus273degrees: Hey I am a gear sec of my club(Leeds Uni) We have loads of gear and the idea is thats its for use outdoors and indoors. I would reccomend you don't accept this policy from your union. Ultimately one of the main ideas about being a uni club, is that there is a pool of gear than can be accessed it members who don't have funds to buy there own rack yet. Do you guys not do any trips outdoors or something as this sounds like a very odd policy. However in the main tell your union to go away and manage another society badly.

In reply to minus273degrees: also If you want any more advice on how we have like 5+ racks/ropes/harness/helmets at a time and how they are managed drop us an email.

In reply to minus273degrees: Our union have no idea exactly what's in the 'store' (Locked cupboard near the wall) and have no idea when it is or isn't there. There are two keys, one held by the club president, and one by the gear sec. Anyone is welcome to borrow the kit so long as they are trustworthy in the eyes of the committee. Eg someone who shows up once every few weeks and then asks to borrow a pair of harnesses, a rope and a trad rack would be told where to go. Up until christmas, I used to regularly borrow a harness + hms + belay plate for trips to other indoor walls.
Now have my own