UKC

Looking at getting some screw, but not sure which ones to go for.

Any ideas much appreciated.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:

I think most of them are pretty good these days. I have done quite well with the Grivel 360s over the last couple of years.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:
I suppose it depends on how hard you push yourself when climbing whether or not you need the ultimate screws. In my limited experience any of the modern screws by BD, grivel or DMM are fine so get whichever are on offer. I've got grivel 360s just because someone was selling up their gear really cheaply.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:

I use the Black Diamond Turbo Express Ice Screw quite a good review here http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=860 love them...

I have got one of the new Grivel Helix SPD Ice Screws, http://www.grivel.com/products/ice/ice_screws/

looks good but not tried it yet.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:

Getting them all the same type will make racking neater and easier.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:

If money was no object I'd be looking at the Grivel Speedys

In reply to gethin_allen: Well, I'm obviously fairly new to winter climbing, so I'm guessing cheapish is the way to go until I can make a proper decission about what works best.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:
Having some method of fast screwing once it has bitten is worth while. The small handle on the BD turbo express screws works fine for this.

For whats its worth I like the BD Turbo Express they bite well, rack well, and go in fast.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:
bit more info
http://info.rockrun.com/articles/which-ice-screw.html

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:

Beware 'cheapish'. Plan on spending the going rate for mainstream screws by the big names (DMM, BD, Grivel or Petzl). Avoid buying cheap screws, especially old ones, or anything that is not current in apearance. You might get lucky with a deal or newish second hand, but you should not cut corners on screws. There's very little worse than trying to place a poor quality screw when your world is beginning to come apart at the seams.

They must be very shiny, very sharp and not made of titanium. They must not be made anywhere east of, say, Munich. That rules out the Austrians, but I can live with that - sorry Stubai.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit: Dont buy cheap you will only waste your money, i bought a combination of BD Turbo and DB express the express are fantastic very quick. would pay the extra for the Express. good luck.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit: Depends on what you are looking for, either a 360, speedy or helix. costs vary.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit: even if you are just starting out its probably better getting modern screws and worth spending the money on them, for two reasons:

firstly you'll want to be able to place them easily when on the lead as they're your protection or to be able to take them out easily if seconding

and secondly if you treat them well then they'll last for a long time (may need sharpening every now and then though)

second hand is a good place to look, also try out some friends screws to see which you like.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit: Don't discount Petzl Laser Sonic I've found them to be great and about £15 to £25 cheaper than Grivel or BD and I find the revolving attachment point feels alot safer than a fixed one.

In reply to Pete Potter:

are you sure? quick google shows the laser sonic to be about the same price as BD express if you shop around for the best value offers

In reply to gethin_allen:

I did this and bought Grivel Helix's and DMM revoulutions. I have used BD expresses and turbos and Grivel 360's too.

I am about to change mine for all BD Expresses as they rack easier and the handle makes a difference when screwing them in or out.

Grivel 360's don't rack at all and fall easily off a crab if more than one is on it. Once in the hand they are good. I don't like the idea of runners permanently attached to the screws, so, at first glance don't like the speedies.

Grivel Helix's are really good and a good price, but have a wide handle that struggles to go around lumps of ice (which can be bashed off, but the BD and 360 are more flexible.)

DMM revolutions have no handle and are therefore harder to put in and take out one handed.

Haven't tried the Petzl ones with the spinning handle which looks like a good idea.

My advice to you is to buy BD expresses. There are two types; the new one with a silver hanger with two holes in it and the older one with the black hanger. I'm going for silver, as they're christmas pressies, but would buy old ones second hand.

In reply to jonnie3430: DMM flirted briefly with a winder "Evolutions" but they didn't take off. They do have new ones coming soon (next winter probably) which I am told are the Ds Bs.

In reply to CurlyStevo: http://www.urbanrock.com/products_show.php?ParentId=169&CatId=173&S...
Have a look at urban rock BD £45 to £50, Grivel 360 £60 to £65 and Laser sonic £35 to £40

In reply to Tim Sparrow:

I've "heard," that they are the dogs nuts too, but the date of release keeps getting put back. They would be "new," though, so on release I'd still wait a year or two before buying so that I can hear stories if there are any niggles with them. The BD ones have been out for a long time and have just been updated so I'm happier with the pedigree that with the DMM ones. (I do like DMM though.)

In reply to Pete Potter:
Like I said comparing the best deals I can find on the net I see little difference between the laser sonic and the express:

BD 16 cm http://www.theoutdoorshop.com/showPart.asp?part=PN65073 £36

Laser sonic 17cm http://www.outdoorgb.com/p/petzl_laser_sonic_ice_screw/?utm_source=froogle&... £34.96

So approx one pound more for the BD express - I know which I'd buy

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:

Most of my screws are Grivel Helix and I've got a couple of new style BD Turbos.

I got my Helix when they were cheaper than the BDs and before BD updated their screws.

Climbing on waterfall ice in Norway I found the Helixs to be quicker and easier to place on lead. The big knob on the Grivel screws worked better and I found it easier to get them to 'bite' compared to my partners old style BDs.

However the next year I returned to Norwya with my Helixs and a couple of the new BD screws. The new BD's 'bite' easier and the bigger handle knob made screwing them in easier. I know it sounds soft, but I used to get quite pumped holding the smaller knob on the old BDs!

Since then the cost of Helixs has increased loads. They used to be £35 each and are now £50 each.

If I was buying new screws again tomorrow I'd buy BD no questions.

Length wise I'd stick with shorter screws for UK climbing.

HTH

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: so for length? how many of what would you get if you could buy again?

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:
I bought a 13, 16, 19 and 22 and have never regreted that purchase. The 22 is great for abalkalovs and belays and the 19 when placed on lead does increase confidence. 13 has been placed less often but I take it out on days when I may need an ice screw but it's unlikely to be thick ice or try and save it for thinner sections of ice. I've since bought another two mid size screws as for pure ice multipitch quite a lot of ice screws are needed.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:

Where and what will you be climbing?

IMHO...

Long pitches of fat water ice: 2 stubbies (10-13cm), ~8 medium (16-19cm) and ~2 long (20-22cm) per team. If steep/ desparate - more stubbies/ less medium as they are just a bit more versatile and quicker to handle and place

Thin/ mixed: 4-5 stubbies, 4-5 medium forget the long screws and take some rock gear and pegs too

See also:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=429682
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=709
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=428521
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=435177

In reply to iksander:
dude in reference to your first thread linked.
"And recent testing shows that they are just as reliable as longer screws in good ice."
Please link this article. I have read various online reports from experiments which do not find this to be true.

On fat ice thicker than ice screws I'd want all 16 and 19 cm screws for on lead placements as these are more reliable and not much harder to place and for belays 22 cm.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

http://www.mra.org/drupal2/sites/default/files/documents/grants/Beverly_Ice...

I'd be interested to read the reports you refer to as well

In reply to CurlyStevo:

The reliability of ice screws is entirely dependent on the quality of the ice they're placed in, which is why longer screws generally provide better placements - surface ice is often soft or fragile, whereas the deeper ice (that you reach into with a longer screw) will usually be more solid and mean the placement will be stronger - shorter screws will often be bitten in surface ice that simply won't be as strong (unless you're willing to dig down).

This is why the actual threads on 13/16/19/22cm screws are all the same length!

In reply to groovy_nut: Conversely, if the surface ice is good - the thread area in contact with the ice is the same for any length screw - as the the thread is the same length. Also if the ice isn't thick enough to accommodate a longer screw, I reckon you'd be better off with a short screw in to the hilt than a tied of longer screw. Also it's not always the case that the surface ice is worse than the ice beneath it. No hard and fast rules, every placement is a case by case judgement.

In reply to iksander:

This is interesting viewing:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k4UcDt4wA6VvKmUcmN#from=embed

Interesting to read 'advice' about screw lengths and 'good' placements, stress failures in tied-off screws, ice screw failures in poor ice when the ice surface layers fail...

Is the current state-of-the-art knowledge still the ENSA tests and the BD test results of a few years ago?

In reply to jonnie3430:
Th real reason why I got grivel 360s is because someone on here sold me three screws (2x16 cm + 1x22 cm) plus a pair of charlet moser black ice crampons and a grivel candela for £88 delivered, and I picked up a 13cm grivel 360 screw for ~£20.
The only thing I don't like about these screws is that the winder is very wobbly/folds away easily making it awkward to keep hold of the screw when removing them. I've solved this issue by drilling a small hole through the plastic winder knob and attaching a loop of accessory cord that I can clip the quickdraw to so if I fumble it's caught on the rope.

In reply to iksander:
unless I read it wrong that article only shows that stubbies do provide a significant amount of protection not that they are as good as longer screws.

I've read the BD data too (listed here)
http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=095232e4-4caf-49e...

it does show that the average failure load increaces as the length of the ice screw increaces. However the 17cm screw has a low failure and a larger std deviation than the 13cm which could well just be down to the larger number of samples.

However it's clear that the 22cm screw is a safer product than the 13cm screw. Also it would be interesting to see some results in less than perfect ice comparing screw lengths.

http://strikerescue.com/research

Conclusions from paper Ice Climbing Anchor Stength

"The longer the ice screw the stronger the ice anchor will be"

In reply to CurlyStevo: The BD results show that a 22cm has a higher force failure than a 13cm in lab ice and subjected to slow pull testing. The Beverley experiment only used short screws, but subjected them to drop testing on natural ice in real world conditions. They saw impact forces of nearly 15kN without failure - perhaps longer screws would hold more, but 15kN is enough IMHO.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I think that article refers to using re-bored screws placed into existing long screw holes?

In reply to iksander:
Aye fair enough, I was actually suprised how strong the stubbies are in good ice after a re-read of the current info out there, generally as strong or stronger than rock gear although not as reliable in the worst case.

Looking at the poorest screws in the Beverely paper (see figure 12), some stubbies failed at under 4kn

In reply to iksander:

nope - they qualify as being applicable to both re-bored and normally placed screws.

In reply to airbournegrapefruit:

For a versatile rack that could be used on both steep continental waterfalls and Scottish Gullies (though on most of these I'd only carry 6-8 screws) I would have:

1 10cm - when it is thin or you are gripped/pumped/scared.
5 13cm - Standard all round on lead screw.
5 16cm - One for each belay and a confidence booster before you run it out.
3 19cm - One of each belay and one for the first runner on each pitch, which I'd always clip with a screamer.

Obviously not many people can afford 14 screws so I'd probably get 7 each between me and my mate.

I'd avoid getting 22cm screws as they are heavier and take longer to place. In good ice you can drill V threads that are more than strong enough with 16cm screws and you're not going to catch me rapping off a V thread in shit ice!

I'd also carry 5 screamers each with DMM revolver karabiner on the end. Though in Scotland I'd only ever carry 2, unless it was waterfall style route, when I'd carry more.

HTH

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

So, what would you do when faced with a climb which you need to retreat off because of deteriorating conditions?

Perhaps all the guides and instructors who advocate using 22cm screws to drill their abalakovs are thinking about maximising their chances of surviving to old age - you know, the variability of ice strength, small hard-to-notice failure cracks - rather than gambling it all on a thinner thread which has barely saved a few grammes and seconds. Perhaps they recognise the fine line in a very variable medium...

In reply to Dee:

Keep climbing up or down until I found a good ice or a descent rock/turf runner.

worst case scenario I would equalize as many anchors as I needed to, until I was convinced that what I was abseiling off was solid. I value my life much higher than my gear.

Has anyone ever been forced to abseil off a V thread, rather than rock gear, on a non cascade style route in Scotland?

There is nothing wrong with drilling 2 or 3 V threads and equalizing them together. Try and keep your angles as narrow as possible so the load is distributed as evenly as possible and make sure there is at least as 1.5 metres between each runner.

I've given up on 240cm slings, recently, and instead carry 5m of 7mm cord that I can use as tat/a cordelette.

HTH

On a slightly different note. (I am new to ice so bear with me!)
Going to get a load of the Black Diamond Turbo Express Ice Screws, and was wondering how many at each size i should get. Do i really need the longest one on uk stuff? What is a good amount to have on Uk ice. Not forgetting 3 or 4 in a belay on each pitch?

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

I would carry no more than 10 in Scotland. Usually between 3-8. Have done a pure ice route with 4 screws and lots of V-threads. We were geared for mixed routes but changed our mind when we saw the fat ice.

If I know all the protections will be screws, I would take about 2X13cm, 6x16cm and 2x22cm. Might change some to 10cm or 19cm depending on the route and what we have.

I found 22cm to be very useful for the belays. I often place 2 V-threads plus one 22cm screw for each belay. I have BD screws except one 22cm Grivel 360 which I found handy for the belay. You can sometimes drill through the back of an icicle with a 22cm screw and thread a sling around it. The 360 goes into more confined places and you have less surface ice to chip off. For brittle water ice the Grivel screws might be easier to get in but the difference is marginal, whilst the difference between any new sharp screws and blunt ones is huge.

In reply to Adam Lincoln: I very rarely need to belay on screws - in Finland you generally get to a big tree! - and have one stubby BD and then all the others mid sized. Mine are so old they only did one mid-length, now they do two but I suspect getting 17 or 19s makes little difference - get a half and half maybe.

I only have one 22 cm screw - some weird old make, but it is good for belays when on multipitch cascades and although I never have needed to, making abalakovs. I reckon one is plenty. Have fun!

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

See my post above.


I don't think you ever need, but others disagree.


I can't think of many routes where I've belayed on only Ice in UK.

4 13cm - General all round runners.
3 16cm - One for each belay plus another runner.
3 19cm - One for each belay and one for the first runner.

Should see you up everything except cascade routes like Central Ice Fall Direct, but presumably you're mate will have some screws too.

Cheers guys.