UKC

It looks like Ground up and Rockfax are both going to publish new North Wales Limestone guidebooks in 2011

I understand that only Ground up propose to use some of the revenue to support the bolt fund. I know which one i'll be buying

In reply to kevin stephens:

I know i wont be buying rockfax regardless of where their money goes, but i'm not getting into that arguement again.

In reply to kevin stephens:

It's probably worth pointing out that ALL the profit from the non-Rockfax guide is going to the bolt fund. It's not really a Ground Up guidebt a volunteer one that they are kindly helping out with

In reply to Tyler:

Not that I think Rockfax should contribute to bolt funds, that's for us as individuals and to whinge on about RF not contributing is an abdication of our own responsibilities

I hear that the CC heavily helped the 'Ground Up' guy/s with the select N.Wales guide and he buggered off and stole Gogarth from them in quick succession! Both are money grabbing b*******s tbh. They all just like us to think they are angels, but are killing off the voluntary (and definitive) guiebook authors that we depend on.

In reply to ERU:

and there was I thinking that the voluntary sector was going from strength to strength since the arrival of Rockfax made them up their game.

Have you seen any of the recent BMC Peak District guides?

In reply to ERU:

Yeah, I bet they don't even climb either! Oh, hang on....


There wasn't a CC guide to Gogarth, now there is. What's the problem? They are not killing off anything - if anything these companies have revolutionised guidebook production to give us the beautiful guides that the CC and BMC are now producing.

In reply to Toreador:
Ditto

In reply to Toreador:

I think he possibly hasnt, but i know I wont be spending another penny on selective guides unless there is no other option. The definitives are just so much better in every way, even more so knowing that they are produced entirely by volunteers!

In reply to Tyler:
Good point well made, and in this case at least Rockfax would be doing the definitive NW Limestone guide from scratch.

ERU: Ground Up rescued the definitive and long overdue Gogarth guide after it had come to a grinding halt in the CC.

Note to self, give to the NW bolt fund

In reply to Monk:
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Obviously I meant now there is a guide, not a CC guide!

And they are definitive guides. There is no reason that a definitive guide can't be produced by a commercial entitity. Why is a volunteer produced guide intrinsically better? Why should we support the CC? It's a private club, not a charity.

In reply to Dan Lane:

Is it just selective guides that's your problem, or the fact that somebody makes money out of them?

Would you have bought the (definitive) Rockfax Clwyd Limestone guide? Would you boycott the FRCC Selective lakes guide?

In reply to kevin stephens:

Rockfax are producing a guidebook next year. It will be the third version of our guidebook to cover this area and is being written by Jack Geldard.

Ground Up are not, as far as I know, producing any guidebook to North Wales Limestone.

There is a second guidebook proposed by Pete Harrison.

Rockfax will support local bolting initiatives in North Wales with the production of our guidebook. This includes the recently set up http://www.ukboltfund.org web site, publicity in the guidebook itself, plus we will make a financial contribution ourselves after publication.

Alan

In reply to Toreador:

No, not selectives guide that is my problem, it isnt even the fact that somebody is making money from then although the majority of selectives are money making ventures. It is the way a lot of them are made, which i'm not going into now, but if you search the forums, i'm sure you'll find the thread where i do.

No i would not boycott the FRCC selctive, infact is currently sits on my shelf at home, however i probably would boycott the rockfax guide, but it is rockfax i have a problem with more than anything.

The other reason i dont like many selectives it that i feel they often miss out many brilliant routes or even whole crags. For example, Eastern grit (rockfax selective) basically ignores Agden Rocher, although it does have about 4 routes, they are certainly not all of the good routes or even the best routes there. The BMC book for the crag has somewhere in the region 120 routes there, a lot of which get stars.

(sorry if any of the numbers in the last paragraph are wrong, i'm typing this from school and therefore dont have the guidebooks to hand.)

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Great stuff, it does seem tht groundup are supporting the other guide, if only by hosting sample pages on their website

Just like busses eh, you wait for years then two turn up at once!

In reply to kevin stephens:

It does seem silly that we are going to have two guides for an area that has managed with an out of date one for years.

In reply to ERU:


I thought the agreement between GU and the CC over Gogarth was amicable.


What's money grabbing about providing a service and charging for it, its what we all do.

In reply to kevin stephens:

Yep, me too. Since I'll be using it for years (probably), I'll be buying the better guide after looking at them both in the shops! Certainly not buying the poorer one just because it may/may not be putting more into the bolt fund - it's easy enough to contribute separately to the bolt fund, and it would probably get more that way anyway.

Cheers
Andy

In reply to Dan Lane:


As you have been told before, this site was built off the back of Rockfax guides. If you hate them that much, why are you here?


That is kinda the point!!! If you live local to a crag, buy the definitive; if you visit every now and again then buy the selective guide to a wider area.

In reply to Dan Lane:

Dan FFS don't start this again we all know you hate rockfax!!!

Anyway you still coming to roaches monday?
I will lend you my western grit 2009 if you want? I will be using the definative and I think chris will be borrowing my peak bouldering guides. Hmm 1 crag I have 4 guide books for.

In reply to kevin stephens:

heres a post on the guide from UKB 1 month ago (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,16402.msg286646.html#msg28664...


A few years back I expressed an interest in doing the North Wales limestone book. Alan James told me that Rockfax had no intention of producing a replacement for the 1998 book which was coming to the end of its print run and that he was happy for Ground Up to take it over.

We then became involved in producing the A55 guide with Mike Doyle (Doylo's dad). Unfortunately there was a falling out and we decided to go our separate ways and Mike subsequently published the A55 guide with another publisher.

My intention then was to still produce a NWL guide (albeit a little further down the line so as to allow Mike a decent amount of time to sell his book and recoup costs), but Alan notified me that Rockfax had had a change of heart and that Jack Geldard was going to produce a replacement for the 98 book. I took the decision to pull out as I knew we couldn't afford to go head to head with another company over what is a low selling book, plus we were/still are very busy with other projects. I'm not sure why the statement you mention was left on the Rockfax site; but it pre-dates the change of plans on their behalf.

A few months back Pete approached me and told me that he wanted to produce a guide to help the bolt fund. He asked for our help and I agreed to support the project.

So, it is correct to say that Ground Up is a significant contributor, but it is not a Ground Up book

In reply to grubes:

Yet he still keeps coming on here.

In reply to Monk:

I'm still here because i like the site, it is just so much better than any other forum.

It is the guidebooks i do not like, not the website, therefore it is the guidebooks i dont buy, plus i dont have to pay to use the website.

And, i know that's the point of selectives, but i'd still rather buy the definitives, they just seem so much more inspiring, and i like to know about the history of the area, which they seem to contain more of. So even for an area not local to me, like North Wales (im on the edge of the peak) I'd like to get the full set of definitives. Although still being 16 i know i will at some point want the definatives so i may as well start buying now.

In reply to grubes:

I'm not trying to start again, so i will no post in this thread no more.

And no i wont be coming on monday, unless you hear otherwise, i'm going to my grandma's. Plus, i dont want you're western grit guide, i have the BMC roaches thanks.

In reply to Toreador:


A little time spent comparing the, err, 'definitive' Rockfax Clwyd Limestone guide with the previous Clwyd Limestone guide would quickly show that the current Rockfax is anything but 'definitive'.

I've always assumed that 'Rockfax' and 'definitive' are mutually exclusive concepts.

Dave

In reply to Dan Lane:


But what if you want to climb in Llanberis pass, the slate quarries and on Tryfan in the same weekend? That's quite an expensive outlay on guidebooks. For what it's worth, I'm with you - I like the definitives, but I also like selectives. Everything has its place and its advantages. There's not really much point being dogmatic about it. As long as great books are produced, everything is rosy.

In reply to Monk:

I know i said i wouldnt post again, but this has nothing to do with me not liking rockfax.

It would indeed be a lot to spend on guidebooks, but it isnt like you need to do that everytime you go is it? If i were to buy guidebooks for each of those area's they would last me for at least 20 years so i'd see it as a worth investment, even if it does seem like a lot to pay at first. And, for what it's worth, I also have the Ground Up North Wales rock guide, a good guide, but like i said, i'd simply rather have the definatives.

In reply to Dan Lane:

You buy the guidebooks you want - customer's prerogative. At least nowadays you get a choice!!


hris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Indeed, if i want a book, i'll buy it, if i dont want it, for whatever reason, then i wont.

In reply to Dave Williams:

Hi Dave

Lee and I left out a few lines on the very minor sections of a couple of crags (the wings of Monk's) springs to mind for various reasons. We also left out a couple of crags which appeared in the old guidebook (Pandy Quarry and Crag etc) due to accessed problems.

If there are routes that you would like putting back in or if you know of ones which we missed or are new it would be great if you could let me or Lee know and we can put them in the next edition due out in a couple of years(2012/13).

Thanks

Mark

In reply to ERU: I'm not sure what your source is (who exactly did you 'hear' all this nonsense from), but I suggest you go back and check your facts before you start slagging me or Ground Up off on a public forum.

For a start I am actually a named author and contributor in several CC definitive guides.

I did not steal Gogarth off the CC - rather the guidebook team approached me and asked me to do it.

Ground up makes definitive guidebooks.

I could go on, and I'm already beginning to regret taking the bait (it's been a stressful day packing a winter guide off to the printers, so my patience is at a low ebb.)... but when you call me a money grabbing bastard. Trust me, if I wanted to 'grab some money' I wouldn't be working like a dog making climbing guidebooks. What I do is a labour of love, always has been.

In reply to Dave Williams:


Well I can think of the odd non-Rockfax guide, billed as 'definitive' and falling some way short!

It seems to me that Rockfax score massively on several counts:

1. Getting the guidebooks out on schedule.

2. Presentation & organisation.

3. Enticing you to want to climb in an area. (Subset of 2.)

4. Giving you a good chance of great days out in an area. (Subset of 2.)

Mick

In reply to Simon Panton:

Well said!

In reply to kevin stephens:

I actually think we are in a very fortunate position where people still have massive dedication and a passion for our passion to further the work of guide books.

We are people of choices. I really like the layout and ease of use of the Rockfax guides, coupled with the online logbook building, climbing partners etc. I also really like my CC Ogwen and Carneddau one where it has simple drawings describes a route that you have to try and figure out... but for different reasons.

I certainly wouldn't buy a guide just because it gives money to the bolt fund. I'd buy a guide book if I thought it would serve me well. Contributing to the bolt fund or Mountain Rescue or any other well deserved organisation is up to me and can be done without the purchase.

I certainly think that respect should be given to anyone and everyone that contributes to climbing... in a good way (not dry tooling on popular crags!) and not use time to slag anyone off as this fraternity is better then that.

And merry Christmas

In reply to Dan Lane:

It is quite interesting that RockFax grew out of the inability of the main guide producers to keep up with developments. There were very much the new kids on the block c15 years ago. Now they are seen by some as part of 'the establishment' and thus in need of a good knocking!
How times change eh?

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

This is true, and thank you to rockfax for indirectly making the 'tradtional' guides better, but in doing this i think you have also shot yourself in the foot, if you get what i mean?

In reply to ERU:


From your profile:

I tend to like people who don't moan, show respect, can be laid back and are fun most of the time.

Very droll.

In reply to Mark Glaister - Assistant Editor:

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Thank you for confirming that the current Clwyd Limestone Rockfax isn't definitive. Now, when you begin work on the new guide, can I suggest that you also use Stuart Cathcart's 1983 Clwyd Limestone guide for reference purposes? The odd lost route, such as Durban Poison, (a good 2 star HVS between Finer Feelings and Vertical Games at World's End) might then be rescued from relative obscurity. Also your Llanymynech selection left out some very good trad routes - eg Blind Faith and Requiem. Blind Faith was even featured as a Climber and Rambler 'Climb of Quality' in the late '70s, and deservedly so.
>

No, you misunderstand; I wasn't complaining that the current Clwyd Limestone Rockfax wasn't definitive. After all, there's enough in it to probably last a lifetime. I have no problem with selective guides and was only responding to a previous post stating that it *was* a definitive guide. However, now that the access situation at Pandy Outcrop has been resolved (due to a change of ownership) then there's no reason for not including it in the next edition. Carreg y Big, near Oswestry, might also be a candidate for inclusion too. The fact that this crag is actually in Shropshire shouldn't cause a problem, since Llanymynech isn't in Clwyd either.
>
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In reply to kevin stephens:

So, which will be first to hit the shops?

In reply to Dave Williams: Hi Dave

Thanks for the reply, I have Stuart's guide so will check out those lines that you highlighted. As for Blind Faith and Requiem I remember the the old Climber and Rambler well - it was an early issue that I bought as a school boy. We left them out as I thought (wrongly) that it was outside the agreed access. Still at least the next guide is not far off. As for Carreg y Big I went there and left pretty quickly! Hopefully Pandy Outcrop will be open as it is a lovely spot.

Thanks again for your interest Dave

Mark

In reply to Mark Glaister - Assistant Editor:

Agreed, Mark - it is a lovely spot. One of those little out of the way places which linger in memory.

One got the impression that Pandy Quarry was a horse of a different colour.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Hi Mick

Yes the two Pandy's are very very different! Btw climbed at Swanage the other day which was in good nick and not too cold but had a day at the Veranda and Dungecroft with Marti which was extremely nippy. Happy xmas.

All the best

Mark

In reply to Mark Glaister - Assistant Editor:

Happy Christmas to you (and all our merry readers!) I keep peeking into 'West Country Climbs' - a labour of love, methinks. So much more to do.

All best wishes,

Mick

In reply to kevin stephens:
So, which will be first to hit the shops?

My one, I hope. Merry Xmas.