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On the 3rd December the Private Members Bill to introduce Double Summer Time (the Daylight Saving Bill) passed it's second reading in Parliament. The legislation will now be considered in more detail in committee. The legislation proposes to simply move the clocks one hour forward throughout the year i.e. every day of the year will gain one hours daylight in the evening (and obviously will lose one hours daylight in the morning)
Thus far climbers have not, as far as I am aware, made their collective voice heard in this debate. However other organisations have pledged their support to the "10:10 Lighter Later" campaign which is supporting the bill. These include Greenpeace, The Central Council for Physical Recreation, the National Association for Environmental Education and Sustrans among others.
For me personally, an extra hours daylight is a no brainer - it means after work outdoor climbing is possible for an additional two months of the year and it means Scottish winter days, especially at this time of the year, are less fraught. It also means that the prospects of me fannying around and getting benighted are reduced at any time of the year. This is an opinion that I think the vast majority of my climbing friends also share.
So the question I'd like to ask is whether a majority of climbers think that the BMC should formally add it's support to the 10:10 lighter Later Campaign? If the answer is a clear yes then perhaps we need to get our act together on the issue quickly so that climbers can influence the decision making process.
Thus far climbers have not, as far as I am aware, made their collective voice heard in this debate. However other organisations have pledged their support to the "10:10 Lighter Later" campaign which is supporting the bill. These include Greenpeace, The Central Council for Physical Recreation, the National Association for Environmental Education and Sustrans among others.
For me personally, an extra hours daylight is a no brainer - it means after work outdoor climbing is possible for an additional two months of the year and it means Scottish winter days, especially at this time of the year, are less fraught. It also means that the prospects of me fannying around and getting benighted are reduced at any time of the year. This is an opinion that I think the vast majority of my climbing friends also share.
So the question I'd like to ask is whether a majority of climbers think that the BMC should formally add it's support to the 10:10 lighter Later Campaign? If the answer is a clear yes then perhaps we need to get our act together on the issue quickly so that climbers can influence the decision making process.
In reply to colin struthers:
Just to clarify what is being proposed... we still have "British Summer" and "British Winter" and they are an hour different but they are both GMT +2 and GMT+1? So the same time as Europe?
Just to clarify what is being proposed... we still have "British Summer" and "British Winter" and they are an hour different but they are both GMT +2 and GMT+1? So the same time as Europe?
In reply to colin struthers:
I'm not particularly against the idea, but I'm not sure I'm really for it either. It'd mean a lot of extra dark morning commutes to work.
> For me personally, an extra hours daylight is a no brainer - it means after work outdoor climbing is possible for an additional two months of the year
Yes, that's true. That could be good.> and it means Scottish winter days, especially at this time of the year, are less fraught. It also means that the prospects of me fannying around and getting benighted are reduced at any time of the year.
Why? There's no change to the length of the day, so if you don't have a fixed start time (as for after-work climbing), it should make no difference. If you just mean a psychological barrier to getting up and going to bed when your watch says it's an hour earlier than you'd like, just set your watch an hour forward for the weekend!I'm not particularly against the idea, but I'm not sure I'm really for it either. It'd mean a lot of extra dark morning commutes to work.
In reply to colin struthers:
To state the obvious, you don't get an extra hour of daylight. If you're worried about fraught winter days, get up earlier
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> For me personally, an extra hours daylight is a no brainer - it means after work outdoor climbing is possible for an additional two months of the year and it means Scottish winter days, especially at this time of the year, are less fraught.
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> For me personally, an extra hours daylight is a no brainer - it means after work outdoor climbing is possible for an additional two months of the year and it means Scottish winter days, especially at this time of the year, are less fraught.
To state the obvious, you don't get an extra hour of daylight. If you're worried about fraught winter days, get up earlier
In reply to colin struthers:
I really don't fancy the idea of dark mornings to be honest. I have to be up relatively early everyday, but not before it gets light. If I had to wake in the dark for several weeks, I would find it hard to get through the day, as I work late into the evening. I can see where you are coming from with regards to lighter evenings, but it would mean kids walking to school in the dark, and they don't walk home in the dark at the moment, so no win for them. Would it actually make much difference to most 9 to 5 people? Probably not, as it would still be dark by about 5.30 for Dec/Jan anyway, but not light until 9 in the morning.
I would rather it stayed put.
I really don't fancy the idea of dark mornings to be honest. I have to be up relatively early everyday, but not before it gets light. If I had to wake in the dark for several weeks, I would find it hard to get through the day, as I work late into the evening. I can see where you are coming from with regards to lighter evenings, but it would mean kids walking to school in the dark, and they don't walk home in the dark at the moment, so no win for them. Would it actually make much difference to most 9 to 5 people? Probably not, as it would still be dark by about 5.30 for Dec/Jan anyway, but not light until 9 in the morning.
I would rather it stayed put.
In reply to liz j:
Think the whole issue attracts quite different levels of enthusiasm or horror at different latitudes and IIRC pre-school accidents to Scottish schoolchildren might have gone up during the previous 'experiment'?
So not a 'no brainer' at all!
> but it would mean kids walking to school in the dark
Think the whole issue attracts quite different levels of enthusiasm or horror at different latitudes and IIRC pre-school accidents to Scottish schoolchildren might have gone up during the previous 'experiment'?
So not a 'no brainer' at all!
In reply to chris_s:
Yes, congratulations, you have indeed stated the obvious.
But the expression 'an extra hour of daylight' is quite commonly used - and not by people who think they are going to get a 25 hour day. What it means to most people is an extra hour of 'useable' daylight when they are neither trying to get a night's sleep, waking, travelling or working. On most days how many climbers can use an extra hour of daylight at 8 a.m. ? And how many is that compared to those who could benefit from an extra hour of cragging on a Summer evening?
I am also well aware that getting up earlier in the morning offsets the shorter Winter climbing day. Generally that is what I do myself. However, most people's daily routines are set by their working week and it's easier to make that early start when you don't have to adjust your routine by an hour. That would be true both physically and psychologically as others have pointed out.
The arguments about safety and accident incidence that others have raised are well covered on the Lighter Later website www.lighterlater.org
The research evidence seems to suggest that that longer evenings actually increase public safety. There is also evidence that lighter evenings promote psychological well being, encourage more frequent exercise and help to reduce carbon emissions. Changing to double summer time would also lead to a synchronising of time zones with the rest of Europe which it is contended would have economic benefits.
Have a closer look at the actual evidence - you might be persuaded
Yes, congratulations, you have indeed stated the obvious.
But the expression 'an extra hour of daylight' is quite commonly used - and not by people who think they are going to get a 25 hour day. What it means to most people is an extra hour of 'useable' daylight when they are neither trying to get a night's sleep, waking, travelling or working. On most days how many climbers can use an extra hour of daylight at 8 a.m. ? And how many is that compared to those who could benefit from an extra hour of cragging on a Summer evening?
I am also well aware that getting up earlier in the morning offsets the shorter Winter climbing day. Generally that is what I do myself. However, most people's daily routines are set by their working week and it's easier to make that early start when you don't have to adjust your routine by an hour. That would be true both physically and psychologically as others have pointed out.
The arguments about safety and accident incidence that others have raised are well covered on the Lighter Later website www.lighterlater.org
The research evidence seems to suggest that that longer evenings actually increase public safety. There is also evidence that lighter evenings promote psychological well being, encourage more frequent exercise and help to reduce carbon emissions. Changing to double summer time would also lead to a synchronising of time zones with the rest of Europe which it is contended would have economic benefits.
Have a closer look at the actual evidence - you might be persuaded
In reply to colin struthers: Climbers think A so BMC should support A. The BMC is now trying to represent all aspects of hill activities.
Personally I don't think the BMC should try to be too environmental and have set policies on such matters like this and wind farms. They'll just create splits. Let members speak for themselves on such matters.
Personally I don't think the BMC should try to be too environmental and have set policies on such matters like this and wind farms. They'll just create splits. Let members speak for themselves on such matters.
In reply to colin struthers:
I wasn't too sure about this, but having read through the FAQ on the website, I'm for it.
http://www.lighterlater.org/
People might want to take a look at the timezone map:
http://www.myminuteintime.com/timezone.asp
I wasn't too sure about this, but having read through the FAQ on the website, I'm for it.
http://www.lighterlater.org/
People might want to take a look at the timezone map:
http://www.myminuteintime.com/timezone.asp
In reply to colin struthers:
I'm definitely not a 'yes'. I'm not definitely a 'no' either though. I just can't really see much point in it, and I am definitely not keen on being in the dark all week over the winter - currently I get to see some daylight on my way to work in the mornings and that is it. I think that there is some real crap talked about this move. The one and only advantage I can see is that more light in the evenings means we will turn on our lights a little later and save a little energy that way. I'm not convinced that darker mornings are better for school kids than darker evenings either - people tend to be sleepier in the mornings and the light helps wake them up and avoid accidents.
> So the question I'd like to ask is whether a majority of climbers think that the BMC should formally add it's support to the 10:10 lighter Later Campaign? If the answer is a clear yes then perhaps we need to get our act together on the issue quickly so that climbers can influence the decision making process.
I'm definitely not a 'yes'. I'm not definitely a 'no' either though. I just can't really see much point in it, and I am definitely not keen on being in the dark all week over the winter - currently I get to see some daylight on my way to work in the mornings and that is it. I think that there is some real crap talked about this move. The one and only advantage I can see is that more light in the evenings means we will turn on our lights a little later and save a little energy that way. I'm not convinced that darker mornings are better for school kids than darker evenings either - people tend to be sleepier in the mornings and the light helps wake them up and avoid accidents.
In reply to colin struthers:
Unfortunately, the 'actual evidence' is mostly conjecture. For example the business benefits are absolute rubbish. We work with Europeans and Americans without any trouble at all. It is also worth noting that European offices tend to start earlier (8am) and end earlier (4pm) than us anyway, so we still won't be synchronised.
> (In reply to chris_s)
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> Have a closer look at the actual evidence - you might be persuaded
> Have a closer look at the actual evidence - you might be persuaded
Unfortunately, the 'actual evidence' is mostly conjecture. For example the business benefits are absolute rubbish. We work with Europeans and Americans without any trouble at all. It is also worth noting that European offices tend to start earlier (8am) and end earlier (4pm) than us anyway, so we still won't be synchronised.
In reply to colin struthers: I'm for it. Here in the C.I. we can only realistically climb in the evenings between the 13th April and 30th August - at that time sunset is at 8pm or later. with DST we'd be able to climb until the end of September. However, we wouldn't benefit before the summer due to the summertime clock change date being at the end of March. Let's face it, in midsummer the sun comes up at 5am BST (so it's actually light for 1/2 an hour before) - that's a fair bit of 'wasted daylight' for most people as they're in bed at that time.
In reply to liz j:
I don't know where you live but it doesn't get light here til gone 8 and I wouldn't consider that relatively early.
> (In reply to colin struthers)
> I have to be up relatively early everyday, but not before it gets light.
> I have to be up relatively early everyday, but not before it gets light.
I don't know where you live but it doesn't get light here til gone 8 and I wouldn't consider that relatively early.
In reply to liz j: Why do we have to retain a uniform time zone throughout the UK anyway? Why not move England one hour "east" into the logical time zone of France, The Netherlands and Spain and leave it to the assemblies of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to decide whether they want to join that time zone or stay in the "west" time zone of The Republic and Portugal?
As some have said, winter is somewhat academic; the benefit comes in the warmer months outside high summer, when elderly people, children and sports persons are forced indoors by darkness at the same time as it gets pointlessly light at 5am.
As some have said, winter is somewhat academic; the benefit comes in the warmer months outside high summer, when elderly people, children and sports persons are forced indoors by darkness at the same time as it gets pointlessly light at 5am.
In reply to colin struthers:
I'm wholly against this - people can choose their winter hill times within any framework by getting up appropriately.
I lived through the experiments around 1970, as far south as the E Midlands and mostly in the Northeast of England and my memory is of horrible dark mornings when it didn't get light until you were halfway through the first lesson. Very grim, and I think those who want to impose this stuff again should simply set their clocks differently and leave the rest of us in peace
I'm wholly against this - people can choose their winter hill times within any framework by getting up appropriately.
I lived through the experiments around 1970, as far south as the E Midlands and mostly in the Northeast of England and my memory is of horrible dark mornings when it didn't get light until you were halfway through the first lesson. Very grim, and I think those who want to impose this stuff again should simply set their clocks differently and leave the rest of us in peace
In reply to colin struthers:
Wouldn't it be better to put all this collective effort into trying to tilt the earth slightly and thus giving us a bit more daylight in the winter. Just a thought.
Wouldn't it be better to put all this collective effort into trying to tilt the earth slightly and thus giving us a bit more daylight in the winter. Just a thought.
A longer season of after work cragging would be good.
In reply to wercat:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm almost certain that the 1970 experiment was different - it abolished the clock change completely so that in winter we got up an hour earlier than we do now but in summer we got up at the same time as we do now. So we got all the disadvantages with none of the advantages.
> I lived through the experiments around 1970
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm almost certain that the 1970 experiment was different - it abolished the clock change completely so that in winter we got up an hour earlier than we do now but in summer we got up at the same time as we do now. So we got all the disadvantages with none of the advantages.
In reply to silhouette:
I think you may be right indeed, but as a morning person living in the N and some time in Rutland I found the morning darkness intolerable.
iirc people used the dark mornings to try out tricks on chocolate machines near the school such that you could get several bars out for one sixpence!
I think you may be right indeed, but as a morning person living in the N and some time in Rutland I found the morning darkness intolerable.
iirc people used the dark mornings to try out tricks on chocolate machines near the school such that you could get several bars out for one sixpence!
In reply to colin struthers:
I don't see why all climbers should do so. Presumably some are morning people some aren't, some will (cycle) commute and prefer a balance between lighter mornings and evenings, some... you get the idea.
As a BMC member I don't want them to hijack the diverse opinions and circumstances of their members and mis-represent their wishes one way or the other. They can shout about climbing issues and shut up about anything else please.
I don't see why all climbers should do so. Presumably some are morning people some aren't, some will (cycle) commute and prefer a balance between lighter mornings and evenings, some... you get the idea.
As a BMC member I don't want them to hijack the diverse opinions and circumstances of their members and mis-represent their wishes one way or the other. They can shout about climbing issues and shut up about anything else please.
In reply to Pylon King:
Now that definitely gets my vote. Eat many pies then all head to the right side at once?
Now that definitely gets my vote. Eat many pies then all head to the right side at once?
In reply to wercat:
That's true. But unfortunately most of us can't choose our summer working hours in the same way.
> people can choose their winter hill times within any framework by getting up appropriately.
That's true. But unfortunately most of us can't choose our summer working hours in the same way.
In reply to Toreador: Maybe so, but as Wrongfoot says, why should this be a BMC issue?
As you can see from the thread there is no common consensus anyway; but even so on such a matter I fail to see why the BMC should act. I know inevitably it has to get involved in politics; but for me these incidences should be reduced to things which directly affect climbers (AND OTHER HILL GOERS), such as CRoW act.
As you can see from the thread there is no common consensus anyway; but even so on such a matter I fail to see why the BMC should act. I know inevitably it has to get involved in politics; but for me these incidences should be reduced to things which directly affect climbers (AND OTHER HILL GOERS), such as CRoW act.
In reply to colin struthers:
It'd be far better to campaign to work flexible hours, starting your day at 8am and finishing at 4 rather than 9 until 5 would have much the same effect.
Not to mention if people mixed up their working hours a bit commuting times would be cut.
It'd be far better to campaign to work flexible hours, starting your day at 8am and finishing at 4 rather than 9 until 5 would have much the same effect.
Not to mention if people mixed up their working hours a bit commuting times would be cut.
In reply to colin struthers:
IMO the BMC should not be formally supporting this. It's a highly divisive issue and whilst some members might be seduced by the prospect of longer summer evening spent cragging others will be severely inconvenienced in their day to day jobs. If the BMC came out in support of this I would very seriously consider cancelling my memebership.
> So the question I'd like to ask is whether a majority of climbers think that the BMC should formally add it's support to the 10:10 lighter Later Campaign? If the answer is a clear yes then perhaps we need to get our act together on the issue quickly so that climbers can influence the decision making process.
IMO the BMC should not be formally supporting this. It's a highly divisive issue and whilst some members might be seduced by the prospect of longer summer evening spent cragging others will be severely inconvenienced in their day to day jobs. If the BMC came out in support of this I would very seriously consider cancelling my memebership.
In reply to ebygomm: That's be much better. More encouragement and facilitating working from home, and flexible working hours.
I went to a talk by a Government Health Advisor on the 'Green gym' and how doing exercise in greenery reduces stress and improves most measures of health. I emailed him pointing out that for most of the population, for 4 months a year, 5 days a week they don't see day light, and so there has to be a change in working hours if he really wants that to work...he didn't even reply...in NZ it was common practice to train at lunch.
I went to a talk by a Government Health Advisor on the 'Green gym' and how doing exercise in greenery reduces stress and improves most measures of health. I emailed him pointing out that for most of the population, for 4 months a year, 5 days a week they don't see day light, and so there has to be a change in working hours if he really wants that to work...he didn't even reply...in NZ it was common practice to train at lunch.
In reply to colin struthers:
I think the effects of clock changing are felt differently depending upon how far North or South you are. In Scotland I think the short days in winter are more important than the length of the evenings in the Summer. I certainly wouldn't want have my five working week days degraded just so I could get up one hour later for my one or two climbing days a week in the winter.
If the BMC are going to take a position on this could I suggest that you change your name to something like the E&WMC (English and Welsh Mountaineering Council) to make it clear to the uninformed that you don't speak for the whole of the UK.
Thanks.
I think the effects of clock changing are felt differently depending upon how far North or South you are. In Scotland I think the short days in winter are more important than the length of the evenings in the Summer. I certainly wouldn't want have my five working week days degraded just so I could get up one hour later for my one or two climbing days a week in the winter.
If the BMC are going to take a position on this could I suggest that you change your name to something like the E&WMC (English and Welsh Mountaineering Council) to make it clear to the uninformed that you don't speak for the whole of the UK.
Thanks.
In reply to Removed User: Why do the Scots get a separate voice and the Welsh don't? It's why this just isn't a BMC issue. How can the BMC have one view to represent people from Lands End to John O Groats?
In reply to IainRUK:
I guess if the Welsh clubs wanted to set up their own representative body there's nothing to stop them doing so. Nobody ever commanded that all English and Welsh clubs should join the same representative body did they? Clubs just decided to associate with each other and the Scottish clubs associated differently from those in England and Wales.
> (In reply to Eric9Points) Why do the Scots get a separate voice and the Welsh don't? It's why this just isn't a BMC issue. How can the BMC have one view to represent people from Lands End to John O Groats?
I guess if the Welsh clubs wanted to set up their own representative body there's nothing to stop them doing so. Nobody ever commanded that all English and Welsh clubs should join the same representative body did they? Clubs just decided to associate with each other and the Scottish clubs associated differently from those in England and Wales.
In reply to colin struthers:
Should climbers support Double Summer Time?
Yes.
Should the BMC support it?
Probably not.
Should climbers support Double Summer Time?
Yes.
Should the BMC support it?
Probably not.
In reply to Removed User:
Why not compromise - stick with GMT in the winter, and move to GMT+3 in the summer
> I think the effects of clock changing are felt differently depending upon how far North or South you are. In Scotland I think the short days in winter are more important than the length of the evenings in the Summer
Why not compromise - stick with GMT in the winter, and move to GMT+3 in the summer
In reply to colin struthers:
I don't believe this is something that the BMC should take a position on. This isn't really a climbing issue, nor really a reacreational issue, it's more a lifestyle issue around flexible working and the like. And what you give to some people you take away from others. I'm a BMC member and personally against it.
I don't believe this is something that the BMC should take a position on. This isn't really a climbing issue, nor really a reacreational issue, it's more a lifestyle issue around flexible working and the like. And what you give to some people you take away from others. I'm a BMC member and personally against it.
In reply to colin struthers:
Couldn't we have the mid summer daylight hours between 3 in the afternoon and 8 in the morning? That way you could do a full days work and then have loads of time to go climbing.
Couldn't we have the mid summer daylight hours between 3 in the afternoon and 8 in the morning? That way you could do a full days work and then have loads of time to go climbing.
In reply to colin struthers: Definitely worth having a say although this bill simply gives the go ahead to commission research about whether it would be feasible or not. Certainly worth getting organised with an opinion if the current bill goes through.
Pen me in for a yes - I would like to see GMT+2 in the summer and GMT+1 in the winter same as in Europe.
Pen me in for a yes - I would like to see GMT+2 in the summer and GMT+1 in the winter same as in Europe.
In reply to petestack:
In the previous experiment, pre-school accidents did indeed go up, but post-school accidents went down by *more* - the sum was that lives were saved.
Obviously only the former fact was reported at the time.
In the previous experiment, pre-school accidents did indeed go up, but post-school accidents went down by *more* - the sum was that lives were saved.
Obviously only the former fact was reported at the time.
In reply to colin struthers:
I started this thread because I had assumed that the vast majority of climbers would want to support the Lighter Later Campaign for the simple reason that it increases the time available for us to get out on the crags/hills.
Had this been the case then I think it actually would have been appropriate for the BMC to express an opinion on the matter.
However, the posts on this thread make it clear that a significant proportion of climbers would not support a change to double summer time. Whilst I personally find this disappointing (and indeed puzzling) I would accept that a body such as the BMC cannot take a position on the issue unless there is a very clear concensus in favour amongst it's members.
Nevertheless I think it was a question worth asking.
I started this thread because I had assumed that the vast majority of climbers would want to support the Lighter Later Campaign for the simple reason that it increases the time available for us to get out on the crags/hills.
Had this been the case then I think it actually would have been appropriate for the BMC to express an opinion on the matter.
However, the posts on this thread make it clear that a significant proportion of climbers would not support a change to double summer time. Whilst I personally find this disappointing (and indeed puzzling) I would accept that a body such as the BMC cannot take a position on the issue unless there is a very clear concensus in favour amongst it's members.
Nevertheless I think it was a question worth asking.
In reply to colin struthers:
I'm just unconviced by this. At the weekends or on holidays, I get up early to get the most light. In the summer I currently live nowhere near rock so light evenings are meaningless to me, so I would rather have light for my morning commute. When I lived close to rock, I didn't really have any trouble climbing outside between April and October, up to 5 times a week (weather permitting).
It's always worth asking a question.
> (In reply to colin struthers)
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> I started this thread because I had assumed that the vast majority of climbers would want to support the Lighter Later Campaign for the simple reason that it increases the time available for us to get out on the crags/hills.
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> I started this thread because I had assumed that the vast majority of climbers would want to support the Lighter Later Campaign for the simple reason that it increases the time available for us to get out on the crags/hills.
I'm just unconviced by this. At the weekends or on holidays, I get up early to get the most light. In the summer I currently live nowhere near rock so light evenings are meaningless to me, so I would rather have light for my morning commute. When I lived close to rock, I didn't really have any trouble climbing outside between April and October, up to 5 times a week (weather permitting).
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> Nevertheless I think it was a question worth asking.
> Nevertheless I think it was a question worth asking.
It's always worth asking a question.
In reply to colin struthers: I agree.
In reply to colin struthers: I really don't care if its darker in the mornings, i'm only travelling to work during the week and not doing anything that requires light so it wouldn't bother me but I would like longer lighter evenings when i'm able to enjoy it.
In reply to colin struthers: Yes, in favour to support Double Summer Time.
Jon Ratcliffe
Jon Ratcliffe
In reply to colin struthers:
Equally are you really asking a cross section of climbers or just a bunch of people with no actual intrest in going climbing and a vested intrest in talking about it?
Any real climbers who were actually intrested in going climbing as much as possible would be in favour of this. Of course the majority of the BMC's membership probably doesn't go climbing/mountaineering/hillwalking reguarlly so there is probably a conflict of intrests here. Anyone saying they would quit the bmc if they formally support the campagian is mental and clearly joined the BMC for the wrong reasons, because IMHO one of the main jobs(and a main reasons for joining) of the bmc is to support walkers and climbers to access the countryside/mountains/crags as often and as easily as possible.
In terms of what the bmc should do personally I would say formally support "the 10:10 lighter later" campagain, but then don't do anything more.
Equally are you really asking a cross section of climbers or just a bunch of people with no actual intrest in going climbing and a vested intrest in talking about it?
Any real climbers who were actually intrested in going climbing as much as possible would be in favour of this. Of course the majority of the BMC's membership probably doesn't go climbing/mountaineering/hillwalking reguarlly so there is probably a conflict of intrests here. Anyone saying they would quit the bmc if they formally support the campagian is mental and clearly joined the BMC for the wrong reasons, because IMHO one of the main jobs(and a main reasons for joining) of the bmc is to support walkers and climbers to access the countryside/mountains/crags as often and as easily as possible.
In terms of what the bmc should do personally I would say formally support "the 10:10 lighter later" campagain, but then don't do anything more.
In reply to Monk:
So an extra hour is no good if you live either very close to rock, or very far away.
For those of us in between, the extra hour would be extremely useful! The latest we can climb outside is the end of September, and that's only by resorting to9 a crap crag that's only 20 minutes away.
So an extra hour is no good if you live either very close to rock, or very far away.
For those of us in between, the extra hour would be extremely useful! The latest we can climb outside is the end of September, and that's only by resorting to9 a crap crag that's only 20 minutes away.
In reply to Toreador: As a wall owner I would not be in favour of the change as it would hurt me financially.
In reply to The third:
You're a Student, people with jobs and family etc have to consider lots of factors besides climbing.
You're a Student, people with jobs and family etc have to consider lots of factors besides climbing.
In reply to The third:
Why's that? Surely any real climber would get himself the sort of job that allows him/her to climb when the crags aren't full off office workers? If it bothers you that much go on shifts.
What do you base that on?
You're assuming what fits in best for you fits in with everyone else. It would probably be better for me too, but I don't see why the entire population should potentially be inconvenienced just so I don't need to put a headtorch in my rucsac on an evening. Plus, if you work for a living, it means you'd be tucked up in bed at midnight trying to get some shuteye in the 6 hours before you get up for work while the neighbours kids run round playing football.
Erm..
> (In reply to colin struthers)
> Any real climbers who were actually intrested in going climbing as much as possible would be in favour of this.
Why's that? Surely any real climber would get himself the sort of job that allows him/her to climb when the crags aren't full off office workers? If it bothers you that much go on shifts.
> Of course the majority of the BMC's membership probably doesn't go climbing/mountaineering/hillwalking reguarlly so there is probably a conflict of intrests here.
What do you base that on?
> Anyone saying they would quit the bmc if they formally support the campagian is mental and clearly joined the BMC for the wrong reasons, because IMHO one of the main jobs(and a main reasons for joining) of the bmc is to support walkers and climbers to access the countryside/mountains/crags as often and as easily as possible.
You're assuming what fits in best for you fits in with everyone else. It would probably be better for me too, but I don't see why the entire population should potentially be inconvenienced just so I don't need to put a headtorch in my rucsac on an evening. Plus, if you work for a living, it means you'd be tucked up in bed at midnight trying to get some shuteye in the 6 hours before you get up for work while the neighbours kids run round playing football.
> In terms of what the bmc should do personally I would say formally support "the 10:10 lighter later" campagain, but then don't do anything more.
Erm..
In reply to Parrys_apprentice:
Nope, you are right, 8 isn't that early in comparrison to the time that many have to leave their beds!! Here, it is getting light at about 8, so that is the time that I wake up. I find that if I have to wake in the dark, I cannot function properly, as I need to wake as it gets light. If it didn't get light until 9, then I would have a problem with getting through my day, as I don't finish work until 8.30, by which time it would be dark regardless.
> (In reply to liz j)
> [...]
>
> I don't know where you live but it doesn't get light here til gone 8 and I wouldn't consider that relatively early.
> [...]
>
> I don't know where you live but it doesn't get light here til gone 8 and I wouldn't consider that relatively early.
Nope, you are right, 8 isn't that early in comparrison to the time that many have to leave their beds!! Here, it is getting light at about 8, so that is the time that I wake up. I find that if I have to wake in the dark, I cannot function properly, as I need to wake as it gets light. If it didn't get light until 9, then I would have a problem with getting through my day, as I don't finish work until 8.30, by which time it would be dark regardless.
In reply to The third:
What an arrogant and unpleasant post. I am one of those not 100% in favour of this change, but I am desparate to get out climbing as much as possible, but sometimes things don't work out that way, and frankly an extra hour of light is not actually going to make that much differnce. If you were really obsessed as much as you claim to be, the sunlight shouldn't worry you - get a torch and go night climbing. It's great fun!
What an arrogant and unpleasant post. I am one of those not 100% in favour of this change, but I am desparate to get out climbing as much as possible, but sometimes things don't work out that way, and frankly an extra hour of light is not actually going to make that much differnce. If you were really obsessed as much as you claim to be, the sunlight shouldn't worry you - get a torch and go night climbing. It's great fun!
In reply to Toreador:
I take your point, but I was playing devil's advocate to an extent. I agree that there are a proportion of climbers who would appreciate an exta hour of daylight, but there are many more for whom it wouldn't make any difference, and an even larger proportion of a wider society for whom an extra hour of daylight would be preferable in the morning. For that reason, I don't think that this is something that is unequivocally something that 'climbers' want, so not something that the BMC should get behind.
As I have said before, I am relatively ambivalent about all this - it's only time afterall.
> (In reply to Monk)
> So an extra hour is no good if you live either very close to rock, or very far away.
>
> For those of us in between, the extra hour would be extremely useful! The latest we can climb outside is the end of September, and that's only by resorting to9 a crap crag that's only 20 minutes away.
> So an extra hour is no good if you live either very close to rock, or very far away.
>
> For those of us in between, the extra hour would be extremely useful! The latest we can climb outside is the end of September, and that's only by resorting to9 a crap crag that's only 20 minutes away.
I take your point, but I was playing devil's advocate to an extent. I agree that there are a proportion of climbers who would appreciate an exta hour of daylight, but there are many more for whom it wouldn't make any difference, and an even larger proportion of a wider society for whom an extra hour of daylight would be preferable in the morning. For that reason, I don't think that this is something that is unequivocally something that 'climbers' want, so not something that the BMC should get behind.
As I have said before, I am relatively ambivalent about all this - it's only time afterall.
In reply to Ridge:
well personal assumption mainly but also the bmc membership survey i.e 24.6% of members are in the south east.
Yeah but here we are not discussing what is best for the country we are discussing should the bmc back the bid and in my opinon most climbers would favour the bid. Im sure when the house of commons look at it they won't say but joe blogs wants an extra hour climbing, they will weigh up all the benifits for the country(of which there are quite a few)
> What do you base that on?
well personal assumption mainly but also the bmc membership survey i.e 24.6% of members are in the south east.
> You're assuming what fits in best for you fits in with everyone else. It would probably be better for me too, but I don't see why the entire population should potentially be inconvenienced just so I don't need to put a headtorch in my rucsac on an evening. Plus, if you work for a living, it means you'd be tucked up in bed at midnight trying to get some shuteye in the 6 hours before you get up for work while the neighbours kids run round playing football.
Yeah but here we are not discussing what is best for the country we are discussing should the bmc back the bid and in my opinon most climbers would favour the bid. Im sure when the house of commons look at it they won't say but joe blogs wants an extra hour climbing, they will weigh up all the benifits for the country(of which there are quite a few)
In reply to Monk: Well I apoligise if the post came over in that way its very hard to gauge how people are trying to communicate themselves over the internet on forums like these.
Plus I have been out climbing with my head torch quite a few times this year, I just find it hard to climb quite so well with a headtorch in the dark on as during the daytime.
Plus I have been out climbing with my head torch quite a few times this year, I just find it hard to climb quite so well with a headtorch in the dark on as during the daytime.
In reply to colin struthers:
I think you did well in starting it. As i read your OP I thought, 'no, the BMC shouldn't have a stance on this, it's highly divisive'... then I searched out the info, read it, and decided the current situation is fairly idiotic. But as you say, the BMC shouldn't have a line on anything that doesn't have a very clear consensus... and this doesn't, nor is it likely to. Pity really. But hey, maybe it'll happen even without BMC support... after all it'll save the country heaps of money, make us instantly greener, plus the 100 people each year who won't be dead, so maybe it'll become law. I would cross my fingers, but my husband is an early morning runner, and hence I can see the other side of the coin, so I won't.
I think you did well in starting it. As i read your OP I thought, 'no, the BMC shouldn't have a stance on this, it's highly divisive'... then I searched out the info, read it, and decided the current situation is fairly idiotic. But as you say, the BMC shouldn't have a line on anything that doesn't have a very clear consensus... and this doesn't, nor is it likely to. Pity really. But hey, maybe it'll happen even without BMC support... after all it'll save the country heaps of money, make us instantly greener, plus the 100 people each year who won't be dead, so maybe it'll become law. I would cross my fingers, but my husband is an early morning runner, and hence I can see the other side of the coin, so I won't.
In reply to The third:
So because you live in the south east you can't be a real climber!? Try telling that to Mick Fowler (although he has moved North since) or many other climbers who appear in the first ascent lists of any guidebook. When I was a student, I said that I would never move away from climbing. Unfortunately, after spending several months on JSA, the only decent job I could get was in the south. Trust me, I'd rather not be here, but I need to earn some money to live and climb.
> (In reply to Ridge)
>
> [...]
>
> well personal assumption mainly but also the bmc membership survey i.e 24.6% of members are in the south east.
>
>
> [...]
>
> well personal assumption mainly but also the bmc membership survey i.e 24.6% of members are in the south east.
>
So because you live in the south east you can't be a real climber!? Try telling that to Mick Fowler (although he has moved North since) or many other climbers who appear in the first ascent lists of any guidebook. When I was a student, I said that I would never move away from climbing. Unfortunately, after spending several months on JSA, the only decent job I could get was in the south. Trust me, I'd rather not be here, but I need to earn some money to live and climb.
In reply to colin struthers: Why should the BMC have an opinion on this any more than, say, the price of concrete, or something else completely arbitary? Wouldn't mind the daylight in the evening rather than the morning, but it's hardly a big difference. In the winter, you are going to be doing stuff in the dark at one end of the day or the other regardless.
In reply to zzz:
Not quite true - if they adopt the new time, we will be in darkness at both ends of the working day, rather than just the evening.
> In the winter, you are going to be doing stuff in the dark at one end of the day or the other regardless.
Not quite true - if they adopt the new time, we will be in darkness at both ends of the working day, rather than just the evening.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
Or in other words, a significant number of climbers would climb outside more if the change was made
> As a wall owner I would not be in favour of the change as it would hurt me financially.
Or in other words, a significant number of climbers would climb outside more if the change was made
In reply to Monk: No of course there is always the super psyched like mick fowler, however the majority will not be that keen. Im not trying to say they are bad people just that really on this issue the bmc should be doing what is best for folk who want to get out reguarlly not people who dont get outside very often and have concerns which aren't primarlly hillwalking/climbing. I appreciate I may have offended you earlier by talking down people who spend large amounts of time talking on ukc about climbing but not doing any, but I think the fact that you felt insulted is clouding your judgment. Ultimatley the bmc should be looking after climbers/hillwalkers interest not peoples non-outdoors intrest.
Other than the wall manager who would potentially lose buissness due to this I struggle to see reasons for why this wont help outdoorsy people. It does strike me as being a shame if the bmc decides not to support the campagian because of issues which are not related to the outdoors.
Other than the wall manager who would potentially lose buissness due to this I struggle to see reasons for why this wont help outdoorsy people. It does strike me as being a shame if the bmc decides not to support the campagian because of issues which are not related to the outdoors.
In reply to colin struthers:
I'm another who absolutely opposes this proposition. Perhaps a better approach would be for the government to be promoting the introduction of flexible hours in more work places which would be of far greater benefit all round - not just for climbers who can't be arsed to get out of bed
I'm another who absolutely opposes this proposition. Perhaps a better approach would be for the government to be promoting the introduction of flexible hours in more work places which would be of far greater benefit all round - not just for climbers who can't be arsed to get out of bed
In reply to Monk: Apologies - just realised you live 'down south'. I already go to work and come home in the dark just now.
In reply to The third:
I wasn't offended; I thought you were an arrogant and shortsighted prick. I refrained from saying so earlier, and tried to say something more measured but as you keep banging on about how so many people aren't climbers if they don't live next to a crag and climb all day everyday, I'll just come straight out and say it. I happen to know a lot of BMC members, some in the south-east and some near rock. Their lust for climbing is utterly irrelevant to where they live, only their psyche affects this. They are BMC members because they like to climb, walk or mountaineer. People are BMC members who are predominantly alpinists, mountaineers or hillwalkers - the change in daylight makes no difference to them, so how are the BMC representing them if they get behind a campaign such as this? The BMC is there to represent all of it's members, not just those members who are super-psyched to get out cragging. This is an issue that affects more than just climbing, and different individual will have different opinions. By all means sign a petition in favour, and encourage all your friends to do the same, but this is an individal issue not a BMC issue.
> (In reply to Monk) No of course there is always the super psyched like mick fowler, however the majority will not be that keen. Im not trying to say they are bad people just that really on this issue the bmc should be doing what is best for folk who want to get out reguarlly not people who dont get outside very often and have concerns which aren't primarlly hillwalking/climbing. I appreciate I may have offended you earlier by talking down people who spend large amounts of time talking on ukc about climbing but not doing any, but I think the fact that you felt insulted is clouding your judgment. Ultimatley the bmc should be looking after climbers/hillwalkers interest not peoples non-outdoors intrest.
I wasn't offended; I thought you were an arrogant and shortsighted prick. I refrained from saying so earlier, and tried to say something more measured but as you keep banging on about how so many people aren't climbers if they don't live next to a crag and climb all day everyday, I'll just come straight out and say it. I happen to know a lot of BMC members, some in the south-east and some near rock. Their lust for climbing is utterly irrelevant to where they live, only their psyche affects this. They are BMC members because they like to climb, walk or mountaineer. People are BMC members who are predominantly alpinists, mountaineers or hillwalkers - the change in daylight makes no difference to them, so how are the BMC representing them if they get behind a campaign such as this? The BMC is there to represent all of it's members, not just those members who are super-psyched to get out cragging. This is an issue that affects more than just climbing, and different individual will have different opinions. By all means sign a petition in favour, and encourage all your friends to do the same, but this is an individal issue not a BMC issue.
In reply to zzz:
Fair enough - just looked at your profile too! I used to live a little further north than I do now (still far south to you) and definitely notice the difference in daylight hours over just a few hundred miles. I think that just goes to show that everyone has a different opinion, especially as many Scots are dead against this idea.
> (In reply to Monk) Apologies - just realised you live 'down south'. I already go to work and come home in the dark just now.
Fair enough - just looked at your profile too! I used to live a little further north than I do now (still far south to you) and definitely notice the difference in daylight hours over just a few hundred miles. I think that just goes to show that everyone has a different opinion, especially as many Scots are dead against this idea.
In reply to Monk:
so the obvious solutions are (1) let them set their own time zones, or (2) ignore them and go with the majority view instead of the minority
> many Scots are dead against this idea.
so the obvious solutions are (1) let them set their own time zones, or (2) ignore them and go with the majority view instead of the minority
In reply to The third:
I live in Scotland, so it's of limited help.
In the Spring and Summer we have much longer light evenings than those further South anyway, though it would extend the 'evening cragging' season by a few weeks either way when the days are shorter.
It'd provide no real benefit for hillwalking, scrambling, winter climbing and 'mountain rock', except on the odd occasions these can be squeezed in after work. And even then, I have a headtorch and I'm not afraid of the dark. And it doesn't really get dark anyway for a third of the year.
Midweek evening cragging is nice, but it's not my main interest. So, for me, there's only a small benefit, which may be outweighed by non-climbing issues. So I'm not really bothered.
In fairness, though, the BMC don't represent Scottish hillgoers and climbers, so I suppose I'm off-topic.
> Other than the wall manager who would potentially lose buissness due to this I struggle to see reasons for why this wont help outdoorsy people. It does strike me as being a shame if the bmc decides not to support the campagian because of issues which are not related to the outdoors.
I live in Scotland, so it's of limited help.
In the Spring and Summer we have much longer light evenings than those further South anyway, though it would extend the 'evening cragging' season by a few weeks either way when the days are shorter.
It'd provide no real benefit for hillwalking, scrambling, winter climbing and 'mountain rock', except on the odd occasions these can be squeezed in after work. And even then, I have a headtorch and I'm not afraid of the dark. And it doesn't really get dark anyway for a third of the year.
Midweek evening cragging is nice, but it's not my main interest. So, for me, there's only a small benefit, which may be outweighed by non-climbing issues. So I'm not really bothered.
In fairness, though, the BMC don't represent Scottish hillgoers and climbers, so I suppose I'm off-topic.
In reply to Toreador:
You've missed my point. ZZZ is in Scotland as is not anti. My point was that everyone has a different opinion.
> (In reply to Monk)
> [...]
>
> so the obvious solutions are (1) let them set their own time zones, or (2) ignore them and go with the majority view instead of the minority
> [...]
>
> so the obvious solutions are (1) let them set their own time zones, or (2) ignore them and go with the majority view instead of the minority
You've missed my point. ZZZ is in Scotland as is not anti. My point was that everyone has a different opinion.
In reply to colin struthers:
I think maybe you've discovered the perverse nature of some UKC-ers. Had you worded your OP to show the proposal in a negative light, then the response may have been altogether different. Or am I just being cynical?
Personally I'd support the proposal, but as I don't live in the UK, I feel I shouldn't have any say.
On another note, I don't remember experiments in the 70s... is my memory really that bad?
> (In reply to colin struthers)
>
> I started this thread because I had assumed that the vast majority of climbers would want to support the Lighter Later Campaign for the simple reason that it increases the time available for us to get out on the crags/hills.
>
> Had this been the case then I think it actually would have been appropriate for the BMC to express an opinion on the matter.
>
> However, the posts on this thread make it clear that a significant proportion of climbers would not support a change to double summer time. Whilst I personally find this disappointing (and indeed puzzling) I would accept that a body such as the BMC cannot take a position on the issue unless there is a very clear concensus in favour amongst it's members.
>
> Nevertheless I think it was a question worth asking.
>
> I started this thread because I had assumed that the vast majority of climbers would want to support the Lighter Later Campaign for the simple reason that it increases the time available for us to get out on the crags/hills.
>
> Had this been the case then I think it actually would have been appropriate for the BMC to express an opinion on the matter.
>
> However, the posts on this thread make it clear that a significant proportion of climbers would not support a change to double summer time. Whilst I personally find this disappointing (and indeed puzzling) I would accept that a body such as the BMC cannot take a position on the issue unless there is a very clear concensus in favour amongst it's members.
>
> Nevertheless I think it was a question worth asking.
I think maybe you've discovered the perverse nature of some UKC-ers. Had you worded your OP to show the proposal in a negative light, then the response may have been altogether different. Or am I just being cynical?
Personally I'd support the proposal, but as I don't live in the UK, I feel I shouldn't have any say.
On another note, I don't remember experiments in the 70s... is my memory really that bad?
In reply to jon:
I'd like to think this didn't describe me, but I've got a feeling it does
> (In reply to colin struthers)
> [...]
>
> I think maybe you've discovered the perverse nature of some UKC-ers. Had you worded your OP to show the proposal in a negative light, then the response may have been altogether different. Or am I just being cynical?
> [...]
>
> I think maybe you've discovered the perverse nature of some UKC-ers. Had you worded your OP to show the proposal in a negative light, then the response may have been altogether different. Or am I just being cynical?
I'd like to think this didn't describe me, but I've got a feeling it does
In reply to jon:
I remember them and I was about 7 at the time!
It must have been the late 60s or very early 70s.
> I don't remember experiments in the 70s... is my memory really that bad?
I remember them and I was about 7 at the time!
It must have been the late 60s or very early 70s.
In reply to Toreador:
How long did they go on for? Did they abandon Summertime or wintertime or shunt both? Really I don't remember... dribble...
How long did they go on for? Did they abandon Summertime or wintertime or shunt both? Really I don't remember... dribble...
In reply to jon:
Can't remember in that much detail (I was only tiny!), but luckily Google has a better memory. It was 1968-1971, and it was only the winter that was changed (ie BST all year round).
Can't remember in that much detail (I was only tiny!), but luckily Google has a better memory. It was 1968-1971, and it was only the winter that was changed (ie BST all year round).
In reply to jon: I think (not completely certain) they kept Summer as it is now so we still had "wasted daylight" in the morning. But they made Winter an hour "earlier" in other words we had extra darkness on winter mornings. What happened was, the clocks weren't changed at all.
Im in, sounds top.
In reply to Monk:
I invite you to read the bmc membership survey http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=687
the majority of members main activity is hillwalking followed by rock climbing. 61.6% put it as a first/second/third activity. I appreciate you don't get it but for that 61.6% maybe an extra hour would make a difference, I know personally I have probably 20ish days this year where an extra hour of climbing would have been good. So whilst you are right not all members would benefit from it a large chunk would benefit, whilst the other members would be largelly unaffected.
So why shouldn't the bmc get behind it?
I think saying that it wouldn't make a difference to you or that you and your budddies would have to drive to work/home in the dark is rather short sighted and to be honest suggests you are only really thinking about yourself here rather than the benefits for all bmc members.
I invite you to read the bmc membership survey http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=687
the majority of members main activity is hillwalking followed by rock climbing. 61.6% put it as a first/second/third activity. I appreciate you don't get it but for that 61.6% maybe an extra hour would make a difference, I know personally I have probably 20ish days this year where an extra hour of climbing would have been good. So whilst you are right not all members would benefit from it a large chunk would benefit, whilst the other members would be largelly unaffected.
So why shouldn't the bmc get behind it?
I think saying that it wouldn't make a difference to you or that you and your budddies would have to drive to work/home in the dark is rather short sighted and to be honest suggests you are only really thinking about yourself here rather than the benefits for all bmc members.
In reply to The third:
Absolute bo//0Cks!
Your opinion is based on the flawed assumption that all "real climbers" are in 9 to 5 jobs and close enough to the crags to benefit from this change.
> (In reply to colin struthers)
> Equally are you really asking a cross section of climbers or just a bunch of people with no actual intrest in going climbing and a vested intrest in talking about it?
> Any real climbers who were actually intrested in going climbing as much as possible would be in favour of this. Of course the majority of the BMC's membership probably doesn't go climbing/mountaineering/hillwalking reguarlly so there is probably a conflict of intrests here. Anyone saying they would quit the bmc if they formally support the campagian is mental and clearly joined the BMC for the wrong reasons, because IMHO one of the main jobs(and a main reasons for joining) of the bmc is to support walkers and climbers to access the countryside/mountains/crags as often and as easily as possible.
> In terms of what the bmc should do personally I would say formally support "the 10:10 lighter later" campagain, but then don't do anything more.
> Equally are you really asking a cross section of climbers or just a bunch of people with no actual intrest in going climbing and a vested intrest in talking about it?
> Any real climbers who were actually intrested in going climbing as much as possible would be in favour of this. Of course the majority of the BMC's membership probably doesn't go climbing/mountaineering/hillwalking reguarlly so there is probably a conflict of intrests here. Anyone saying they would quit the bmc if they formally support the campagian is mental and clearly joined the BMC for the wrong reasons, because IMHO one of the main jobs(and a main reasons for joining) of the bmc is to support walkers and climbers to access the countryside/mountains/crags as often and as easily as possible.
> In terms of what the bmc should do personally I would say formally support "the 10:10 lighter later" campagain, but then don't do anything more.
Absolute bo//0Cks!
Your opinion is based on the flawed assumption that all "real climbers" are in 9 to 5 jobs and close enough to the crags to benefit from this change.
In reply to timjones:
fair enough
But what I struggle with here is that the bmc should do nothing becasue not all members will benefit from it.
I've been to area meetings shit crags that less than 10 people in a year visit get discussed if there is access issues to it and dealt with. So we shouldn't take issue on those?
However here we have a chance to offer our opinion on an issue to gouvernment which would affect a number of climbers(more than ten in a year shall we agree???). What do we do? well according to you we say not everyone in the BMC will get a benifit out of it so lets do nothing ..... Thats just strikes me as a bit silly(not trying to be rude, I just lack prowess with my words). Surely the point is here a fair chunk(anyone who lives close enough to get evening cragging) would benfit and as far as I can see other than the scots no one has an objection which is not hillwalking/climbing based.
fair enough
But what I struggle with here is that the bmc should do nothing becasue not all members will benefit from it.
I've been to area meetings shit crags that less than 10 people in a year visit get discussed if there is access issues to it and dealt with. So we shouldn't take issue on those?
However here we have a chance to offer our opinion on an issue to gouvernment which would affect a number of climbers(more than ten in a year shall we agree???). What do we do? well according to you we say not everyone in the BMC will get a benifit out of it so lets do nothing ..... Thats just strikes me as a bit silly(not trying to be rude, I just lack prowess with my words). Surely the point is here a fair chunk(anyone who lives close enough to get evening cragging) would benfit and as far as I can see other than the scots no one has an objection which is not hillwalking/climbing based.
In reply to The third:
I refer you to Tim Jones' reply to you. You are being incredibly blinkered. Do you really think that all of those 61.6% of climbers live outside the Southeast? Of course they bloody don't - I'm one of them! Your use of the BMC member survey is deeply flawed. For example, you list the 24.6% of members that live in the southeast, but neglect to mention that this is the most represented region! Then there is the glaringly obvious fact that over 60% of BMC members list their primary activity as Hillwalking/mountaineering, for which an extra hour of daylight in the summer evenings isn't going to be of much benefit. Only 25% of members listed climbing as their primary activity, and only 20% climb 'weekly'.* By that rationale, the BMC has no business at all supporting this move as it would only benefit a minority of members.
That is rather the point that I am trying to make. This is a very divisive issue and not all BMC members agree, therefore why should the BMC get behind this for what could possibly be a minority of members (but may well not be - we just don't know)?
I am not saying that an extra hour of daylight in the evening wouldn't be good on some days, but people do have other things in their lives once they get a job, family etc that they have to take into account. This is not purely a climbing issue. I believe that the BMC should stick to climbing and mountaineering issues.
*To be honest, I am pretty surprised by these figures. I would have thought that the BMC would have more pure climbers in it than hillwalkers.
I refer you to Tim Jones' reply to you. You are being incredibly blinkered. Do you really think that all of those 61.6% of climbers live outside the Southeast? Of course they bloody don't - I'm one of them! Your use of the BMC member survey is deeply flawed. For example, you list the 24.6% of members that live in the southeast, but neglect to mention that this is the most represented region! Then there is the glaringly obvious fact that over 60% of BMC members list their primary activity as Hillwalking/mountaineering, for which an extra hour of daylight in the summer evenings isn't going to be of much benefit. Only 25% of members listed climbing as their primary activity, and only 20% climb 'weekly'.* By that rationale, the BMC has no business at all supporting this move as it would only benefit a minority of members.
> I think saying that it wouldn't make a difference to you or that you and your budddies would have to drive to work/home in the dark is rather short sighted and to be honest suggests you are only really thinking about yourself here rather than the benefits for all bmc members.
That is rather the point that I am trying to make. This is a very divisive issue and not all BMC members agree, therefore why should the BMC get behind this for what could possibly be a minority of members (but may well not be - we just don't know)?
I am not saying that an extra hour of daylight in the evening wouldn't be good on some days, but people do have other things in their lives once they get a job, family etc that they have to take into account. This is not purely a climbing issue. I believe that the BMC should stick to climbing and mountaineering issues.
*To be honest, I am pretty surprised by these figures. I would have thought that the BMC would have more pure climbers in it than hillwalkers.
In reply to Monk:
fair enough, but surely you can see the bmc supports a number of issues which only affect minority i.e expeditions, crags, indoor climbing, bouldering issues, winter climbing. However they don't say lets do nothing about they say this will benefit people who go hillwalking/climbing/mountaineering. Therefore we should do it, as it makes it easier for people to get outdoors after work. It does not make it harder for those people who don't live close to crags. To get outdoors.
I think the bmc should put it to the area meetings let them decide rather than a completley irrelvant survey of people on this thread.
fair enough, but surely you can see the bmc supports a number of issues which only affect minority i.e expeditions, crags, indoor climbing, bouldering issues, winter climbing. However they don't say lets do nothing about they say this will benefit people who go hillwalking/climbing/mountaineering. Therefore we should do it, as it makes it easier for people to get outdoors after work. It does not make it harder for those people who don't live close to crags. To get outdoors.
I think the bmc should put it to the area meetings let them decide rather than a completley irrelvant survey of people on this thread.
all for it. more climbing after work.
In reply to The third:
Yes, but all the things you mention are specifically climbing related. The clock change affects other areas of our lives too. (By the way - people who know me would be astonished to hear that I consider that there are other things in life than climbing.)
That's a daft suggestion - the area meetings are an even more select portion of BMC membership than these forums! Only those local and highly motivated will/can attend. I have a vested interest in many things that happen in the Area meetings, but can't get to them as they are midweek and far away. The only real way to do it is a survey of a cross section of the membership.
I'll say it again - this is a personal issue that affects our lives in many ways. I am not actually against the change, I just don't think that it is a matter for the BMC.
> (In reply to Monk)
> fair enough, but surely you can see the bmc supports a number of issues which only affect minority i.e expeditions, crags, indoor climbing, bouldering issues, winter climbing. However they don't say lets do nothing about they say this will benefit people who go hillwalking/climbing/mountaineering.
> fair enough, but surely you can see the bmc supports a number of issues which only affect minority i.e expeditions, crags, indoor climbing, bouldering issues, winter climbing. However they don't say lets do nothing about they say this will benefit people who go hillwalking/climbing/mountaineering.
Yes, but all the things you mention are specifically climbing related. The clock change affects other areas of our lives too. (By the way - people who know me would be astonished to hear that I consider that there are other things in life than climbing.)
> I think the bmc should put it to the area meetings let them decide rather than a completley irrelvant survey of people on this thread.
That's a daft suggestion - the area meetings are an even more select portion of BMC membership than these forums! Only those local and highly motivated will/can attend. I have a vested interest in many things that happen in the Area meetings, but can't get to them as they are midweek and far away. The only real way to do it is a survey of a cross section of the membership.
I'll say it again - this is a personal issue that affects our lives in many ways. I am not actually against the change, I just don't think that it is a matter for the BMC.
In reply to The third:
If the BMC do access work on a minor crag that benefits a few climbers, the rest of us also retain the ability to climb there if we wish to do so and that work causes us no inconvenience. With this Double Summer Time rubbish the time shift that would benefit the few would severely inconvenience a lot of other people. Those who selfishly want an extra hours leisure in the evening piss on milkmen, postmen, binmen, farmers, parents with young kids who don't sleep whilst it's light outside etc, etc. If you want the extra cragging time you should negotiate with your boss rather than messing everybody elses day around for your own selfish ends.
> (In reply to timjones)
> fair enough
> But what I struggle with here is that the bmc should do nothing becasue not all members will benefit from it.
> I've been to area meetings shit crags that less than 10 people in a year visit get discussed if there is access issues to it and dealt with. So we shouldn't take issue on those?
> However here we have a chance to offer our opinion on an issue to gouvernment which would affect a number of climbers(more than ten in a year shall we agree???). What do we do? well according to you we say not everyone in the BMC will get a benifit out of it so lets do nothing ..... Thats just strikes me as a bit silly(not trying to be rude, I just lack prowess with my words). Surely the point is here a fair chunk(anyone who lives close enough to get evening cragging) would benfit and as far as I can see other than the scots no one has an objection which is not hillwalking/climbing based.
> fair enough
> But what I struggle with here is that the bmc should do nothing becasue not all members will benefit from it.
> I've been to area meetings shit crags that less than 10 people in a year visit get discussed if there is access issues to it and dealt with. So we shouldn't take issue on those?
> However here we have a chance to offer our opinion on an issue to gouvernment which would affect a number of climbers(more than ten in a year shall we agree???). What do we do? well according to you we say not everyone in the BMC will get a benifit out of it so lets do nothing ..... Thats just strikes me as a bit silly(not trying to be rude, I just lack prowess with my words). Surely the point is here a fair chunk(anyone who lives close enough to get evening cragging) would benfit and as far as I can see other than the scots no one has an objection which is not hillwalking/climbing based.
If the BMC do access work on a minor crag that benefits a few climbers, the rest of us also retain the ability to climb there if we wish to do so and that work causes us no inconvenience. With this Double Summer Time rubbish the time shift that would benefit the few would severely inconvenience a lot of other people. Those who selfishly want an extra hours leisure in the evening piss on milkmen, postmen, binmen, farmers, parents with young kids who don't sleep whilst it's light outside etc, etc. If you want the extra cragging time you should negotiate with your boss rather than messing everybody elses day around for your own selfish ends.
In reply to Monk:
Exactly the bmcs banner on the front page reads "working for climbers,hill-walkers and mountaineers" this issue would help a good bunch of climbers and leave the rest unaffected in terms of there ability to access the hills/great outdoors(which is the point of the bmc, not to say oh but joe bloggs is going to have to stay up an extra hour becasue people are playing football)
Well to the best of my knowledge a large chunk of the bmcs activitys is conducted through the area meetings. So your basically saying that the bmc should do a one-off change on this issue? I don't think that adds up personally. Ultimatley anyone with a real intrest in what is being discussed would attend or failing that email the area secertary with there concerns about what is being discussed.
I think we may have to agree to disagree as I have other things to do and are bored of arguing about something quite so pointless as should the bmc produce a short statment in favour of this issue.
> Yes, but all the things you mention are specifically climbing related. The clock change affects other areas of our lives too.
Exactly the bmcs banner on the front page reads "working for climbers,hill-walkers and mountaineers" this issue would help a good bunch of climbers and leave the rest unaffected in terms of there ability to access the hills/great outdoors(which is the point of the bmc, not to say oh but joe bloggs is going to have to stay up an extra hour becasue people are playing football)
> That's a daft suggestion - the area meetings are an even more select portion of BMC membership than these forums! Only those local and highly motivated will/can attend. I have a vested interest in many things that happen in the Area meetings, but can't get to them as they are midweek and far away. The only real way to do it is a survey of a cross section of the membership.
Well to the best of my knowledge a large chunk of the bmcs activitys is conducted through the area meetings. So your basically saying that the bmc should do a one-off change on this issue? I don't think that adds up personally. Ultimatley anyone with a real intrest in what is being discussed would attend or failing that email the area secertary with there concerns about what is being discussed.
I think we may have to agree to disagree as I have other things to do and are bored of arguing about something quite so pointless as should the bmc produce a short statment in favour of this issue.
In reply to timjones:
None of those professions working 9-5 so it's irrelevant what the clock says. But in any case, there are far fewer of them than there are office workers.
Presumably such parents will be pleased not have an extra hour asleep before the sun rises? But if not, blackout curtains are surprisingly effective.
and the bosses of all the other companies we do business with
in the way that farmers do?
> Those who selfishly want an extra hours leisure in the evening piss on milkmen, postmen, binmen, farmers,
None of those professions working 9-5 so it's irrelevant what the clock says. But in any case, there are far fewer of them than there are office workers.
> parents with young kids who don't sleep whilst it's light outside
Presumably such parents will be pleased not have an extra hour asleep before the sun rises? But if not, blackout curtains are surprisingly effective.
> you should negotiate with your boss
and the bosses of all the other companies we do business with
> rather than messing everybody elses day around for your own selfish ends
in the way that farmers do?
In reply to timjones:
I will take note to request to my university to change its opening hours to start the day from 8. I think you have not read the pro-double summer time website, I think you will find there are more benefits than just climbers getting an extra hour of climbing. Also surely you can appreciate that for some people leisure time is far more important than other considerations in life?
> Those who selfishly want an extra hours leisure in the evening piss on milkmen, postmen, binmen, farmers, parents with young kids who don't sleep whilst it's light outside etc, etc. If you want the extra cragging time you should negotiate with your boss rather than messing everybody elses day around for your own selfish ends.
I will take note to request to my university to change its opening hours to start the day from 8. I think you have not read the pro-double summer time website, I think you will find there are more benefits than just climbers getting an extra hour of climbing. Also surely you can appreciate that for some people leisure time is far more important than other considerations in life?
In reply to The third:
Straight back at you: surely you can appreciate that for many people other considerations in life are more important than leisure time...
As for the area meetings - I think that they are great, but not the perfect example of democracy. Many people often find out what the issues being voted on are after the event when it is too late to get in touch with anyone. In a digital age, I think that there are better alternatives. The peak area are currently the exception by advertising widely what is happening and when.
> (In reply to timjones)
>
> [...]
> Also surely you can appreciate that for some people leisure time is far more important than other considerations in life?
>
> [...]
> Also surely you can appreciate that for some people leisure time is far more important than other considerations in life?
Straight back at you: surely you can appreciate that for many people other considerations in life are more important than leisure time...
As for the area meetings - I think that they are great, but not the perfect example of democracy. Many people often find out what the issues being voted on are after the event when it is too late to get in touch with anyone. In a digital age, I think that there are better alternatives. The peak area are currently the exception by advertising widely what is happening and when.
In reply to The third:
Why not? Uni students laying in bed all morning make up a small proportion of proper climbers, so they can make the sacrifices if they want.
> (In reply to timjones)
>
> [...]
>
> I will take note to request to my university to change its opening hours to start the day from 8.
>
> [...]
>
> I will take note to request to my university to change its opening hours to start the day from 8.
Why not? Uni students laying in bed all morning make up a small proportion of proper climbers, so they can make the sacrifices if they want.
In reply to The third:
I'll happily bet that you get to finish earlier than most workers almost every day of the week
Students are probably the least disadvantaged group when it comes to being able to climb in the evenings
> (In reply to timjones)
>
> [...]
>
> I will take note to request to my university to change its opening hours to start the day from 8. I think you have not read the pro-double summer time website, I think you will find there are more benefits than just climbers getting an extra hour of climbing. Also surely you can appreciate that for some people leisure time is far more important than other considerations in life?
>
> [...]
>
> I will take note to request to my university to change its opening hours to start the day from 8. I think you have not read the pro-double summer time website, I think you will find there are more benefits than just climbers getting an extra hour of climbing. Also surely you can appreciate that for some people leisure time is far more important than other considerations in life?
I'll happily bet that you get to finish earlier than most workers almost every day of the week
Students are probably the least disadvantaged group when it comes to being able to climb in the evenings
In reply to Toreador:
It's highly relevant what the clock says. When you start work in the dark and work outdoors you want it to get light as early as possible.
Your children must have been less intelligent than ours, there's no fooling her with thick curtains
YMMV but I'd be very happy if all the companies I dealt with got their arses into gear and started work an hour earlier if they wanted to they could then finish an hour later.
You'll have ti be more specific?
> (In reply to timjones)
> [...]
>
> None of those professions working 9-5 so it's irrelevant what the clock says. But in any case, there are far fewer of them than there are office workers.
> [...]
>
> None of those professions working 9-5 so it's irrelevant what the clock says. But in any case, there are far fewer of them than there are office workers.
It's highly relevant what the clock says. When you start work in the dark and work outdoors you want it to get light as early as possible.
> Presumably such parents will be pleased not have an extra hour asleep before the sun rises? But if not, blackout curtains are surprisingly effective.
Your children must have been less intelligent than ours, there's no fooling her with thick curtains
> [...]
>
> and the bosses of all the other companies we do business with
>
> and the bosses of all the other companies we do business with
YMMV but I'd be very happy if all the companies I dealt with got their arses into gear and started work an hour earlier if they wanted to they could then finish an hour later.
> in the way that farmers do?
You'll have ti be more specific?
In reply to The third: Go skiing or something. Southerners just don't understand.
In reply to timjones:
But it gets light at the same time whatever the clock says! eg if you currently start work at dawn, which is 5am, if the clocks changed so that dawn was 6am, you wouldn't continue to start at 5am in the dark, you'd continue to start at dawn which is now 6?
I don't have children, but when I was a kid we certainly never stayed up until 11pm in the summer!
You said "rather than messing everybody elses day around for your own selfish ends", as part of your argument for leaving things as they are for your own selfish ends The difference being that for once I find myself in a majority in wanting change.
> It's highly relevant what the clock says. When you start work in the dark and work outdoors you want it to get light as early as possible.
But it gets light at the same time whatever the clock says! eg if you currently start work at dawn, which is 5am, if the clocks changed so that dawn was 6am, you wouldn't continue to start at 5am in the dark, you'd continue to start at dawn which is now 6?
> Your children must have been less intelligent than ours, there's no fooling her with thick curtains
I don't have children, but when I was a kid we certainly never stayed up until 11pm in the summer!
> in the way that farmers do?
You'll have ti be more specific?You said "rather than messing everybody elses day around for your own selfish ends", as part of your argument for leaving things as they are for your own selfish ends The difference being that for once I find myself in a majority in wanting change.
In reply to Toreador:
When you're delivering stuff the start time is dictated by the customers required delivery time not the daylight. Every milkround I ever did started at about 4am in order to get milk to folks before they left for work, in winter where darkness slowed you down you actually had to start earlier.
As for the farming side many summer operations are dictated by the time the dew clears. It's not unheard of to have to wait until mid-morning before the real work starts on a hazy day. With this change we could see starts pushed as late as mid-day and finishes close on midnight, no evening leisure time there! This may not concern some but it is an issue that needs to be considered in order to achieve a balanced view of the effects on everyone.
I believe that our current setup is a best compromise that effectively levels the paying field between the early starters, the late finsishers and the bog standard 9 to 5 workers.
Lightweight
I'm not just looking at it from my end I'm also considering all the other jobs I mentioned. I'm also sure that there are plenty of other examples of people that would be adversly effected by this that I'm not even aware of. As for your claim that you're in the majority I'd be interested to see the evidence to back this up?
Before making such a major change all factors need to be considered and there need to be some pretty hefty gains to justify it. The extra leisure time in the evening for one sector of the UK workforce just doesan't sell it for me. We need to ensure that work can be done efficiently before we even consider leisure interests.
> (In reply to timjones)
> [...]
>
> But it gets light at the same time whatever the clock says! eg if you currently start work at dawn, which is 5am, if the clocks changed so that dawn was 6am, you wouldn't continue to start at 5am in the dark, you'd continue to start at dawn which is now 6?
> [...]
>
> But it gets light at the same time whatever the clock says! eg if you currently start work at dawn, which is 5am, if the clocks changed so that dawn was 6am, you wouldn't continue to start at 5am in the dark, you'd continue to start at dawn which is now 6?
When you're delivering stuff the start time is dictated by the customers required delivery time not the daylight. Every milkround I ever did started at about 4am in order to get milk to folks before they left for work, in winter where darkness slowed you down you actually had to start earlier.
As for the farming side many summer operations are dictated by the time the dew clears. It's not unheard of to have to wait until mid-morning before the real work starts on a hazy day. With this change we could see starts pushed as late as mid-day and finishes close on midnight, no evening leisure time there! This may not concern some but it is an issue that needs to be considered in order to achieve a balanced view of the effects on everyone.
I believe that our current setup is a best compromise that effectively levels the paying field between the early starters, the late finsishers and the bog standard 9 to 5 workers.
> [...]
>
> I don't have children, but when I was a kid we certainly never stayed up until 11pm in the summer!
>
>
> I don't have children, but when I was a kid we certainly never stayed up until 11pm in the summer!
>
Lightweight
> You said "rather than messing everybody elses day around for your own selfish ends", as part of your argument for leaving things as they are for your own selfish ends The difference being that for once I find myself in a majority in wanting change.
I'm not just looking at it from my end I'm also considering all the other jobs I mentioned. I'm also sure that there are plenty of other examples of people that would be adversly effected by this that I'm not even aware of. As for your claim that you're in the majority I'd be interested to see the evidence to back this up?
Before making such a major change all factors need to be considered and there need to be some pretty hefty gains to justify it. The extra leisure time in the evening for one sector of the UK workforce just doesan't sell it for me. We need to ensure that work can be done efficiently before we even consider leisure interests.
In reply to timjones:
But plenty of morning leisure time - so I assume you'll be supporting the proposal after all
> With this change we could see starts pushed as late as mid-day and finishes close on midnight, no evening leisure time there!
But plenty of morning leisure time - so I assume you'll be supporting the proposal after all
In reply to Toreador:
Nahhh!
Looking at all the issues that I can think of I still believe that the current system is the best compromise for everyone.
> (In reply to timjones)
> [...]
>
> But plenty of morning leisure time - so I assume you'll be supporting the proposal after all
> [...]
>
> But plenty of morning leisure time - so I assume you'll be supporting the proposal after all
Nahhh!
Looking at all the issues that I can think of I still believe that the current system is the best compromise for everyone.
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