UKC

dry toolers at it again

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 nickcanute 30 Dec 2010
noticed dry tool marks at horseshoe. i'll not say which route cos don't want to encourage more people, but it's a trad HVS with nice natural crozzly rock (not actually quarried choss), worth a star which is why it had a lower-off placed as a public spirited gesture. not for some lazy pillock to set up a top-rope and pedal in crampons

if people want to dry tool in the peak fine but keep off existing routes, they should clean and equip their own routes for this specific purpose. please stop being selfish by damaging the rock, wherever it is.
 3leggeddog 30 Dec 2010
In reply to nickcanute:

Unfortunately objecting to DTing at crappy venues like the above actually weakens what is a valid arguement. Be careful what you jerk your knee at.
OP nickcanute 30 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog: i'm not objecting to the venue, but to the quality of rock on an existing route.

 Gary Gibson 30 Dec 2010
In reply to nickcanute: Hi Nick, it never ceases to amaze me on this sight. You can put an objective viewpoint about anything and some fool has to come along and put a wholly pointless comment on.

The route in question is an excellent piece of limestone and would not be out of place in many a quality area of trad. There is nothing wrong with HQ either and plenty of people get enjoyment out of it.

The whole point was about dry-tooling on an excellent piece of rock that should not have have been sujected to it.

Your point was well made but the comments of 31eggeddog whoever that is were not.
 The Pylon King 30 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog:
> (In reply to nickcanute)
>
> Unfortunately objecting to DTing at crappy venues like the above actually weakens what is a valid arguement. Be careful what you jerk your knee at.

bollox
In reply to nickcanute:

The whole issue of dry toolimg needs debating seriously.
 jacobfinn 30 Dec 2010
In reply to Christheclimber:
> (In reply to nickcanute)
>
> The whole issue of dry toolimg needs debating seriously.

Well that counts out UKC as the place to do it.

 3leggeddog 30 Dec 2010
In reply to all

Good lord you lot are precious.

I cannot work out the route in question because I don't spend my time climbing tottering rubbish made popular by the addition of a few staples. Perhaps I made my point poorly; this is a bit like crying wolf, save your energy for the crags which really need protecting. I doubt there is the depth of feeling for Horseshoe that there is for Millstone for example. This thread will not run to 100's of posts.

I guess you'll be telling me that Foredale and Gigg south are quality venues next

 dbarmbs 30 Dec 2010
In reply to jacobfinn: Agreed
 Andy Kassyk 30 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog:
> I guess you'll be telling me that Foredale and Gigg south are quality venues next

They may very well be for low grade sports climbers.

Personally I see no difference between dry tooling and aid climbing and aid climbing isn't very popular in the UK. In fact, since the late 60's the accent has always been to eliminate aid.

If you want to whack axes into rock, or place them delicately behind little flakes go to the mountains, or abroad where there's lots of aid/mixed territory to go at.

Leave what little rock there is here to rock climbers (the clue is in the name)

 Bulls Crack 30 Dec 2010
In reply to nickcanute:
> (In reply to 3leggeddog) i'm not objecting to the venue, but to the quality of rock on an existing route.

I think that was his point
 Bulls Crack 30 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog:
> In reply to all
>
> Good lord you lot are precious.
>

>
> I guess you'll be telling me that Foredale and Gigg south are quality venues next

No but better than most of Horseshoe!
 LakesWinter 30 Dec 2010
In reply to Bulls Crack: In fairness the Foundary is better than Horseshoe
banned profile 74 30 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog:
> (In reply to nickcanute)
>
> Unfortunately objecting to DTing at crappy venues like the above actually weakens what is a valid arguement. Be careful what you jerk your knee at.


crappy venues?so because you dont like it,its a legitimate target?shakes head-honestly,your the precious one fella and it sounds like if it were up to you every crag would fair game

 3leggeddog 30 Dec 2010
In reply to beastofackworth:
> (In reply to 3leggeddog)
> [...]
>
>
> crappy venues?so because you dont like it,its a legitimate target?

Crappy due to the low quality of the rock, the climbing and to some extent the surroundings. I agree I don't like climbing in these venues, I don't use them awful venues made popular by a few bolts. These venues are worse than climbing walls, all about training, little pleasure, no heating.

shakes head-honestly,your the precious one fella and it sounds like if it were up to you every crag would fair game

No, no, no. Not all crags are fair game but the arguement against DT loses impact each time it is used why waste gravitas on such a hole? Those who jerk their knee every time DT is mentioned belittle the arguement and risk making fools of themselves. Similar things happened with the bolting arguement in the 80's and it still rumbles on.
ice.solo 30 Dec 2010
In reply to nickcanute:

run, callum run!! i can see the hoods and burning crosses from here!
Anonymous 30 Dec 2010
In reply to Andy Kassyk: There are some mountain crags which are way better than little grit or limestone outcrops

i climb at some amazing crags in the mountains and get disappointed by the scratches especially on some of the classic climbs. Just becasue mountain crags are generally harder to get to people think that they don't matter.

Personally i would rather see the scrathes at some little crag down in the valley than some top quality mountain crag.

Yes some mountain crags have harder rock etc, i'm not saying we should all tare apart some gritstone crag by tooling.

But any please choose your words carefulyl your post

"you want to whack axes into rock, or place them delicately behind little flakes go to the mountains"

makes you sound selfish and ignorant. This is like me saying the same about your local crag.

The topic of tooling does need to be debated properly but it will always excite objections from some party. What pleases one person will displease another.
As does topics between dry tooling and winter route, some hard winter routes which are basically tooling, mixed climbing etc. The debate would be endless.

banned profile 74 30 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog: what you fail to acknowledge is that horseshoe is a popular venue for mid grade sport climbing so someone dry tooling there is potentially destroying a route that 100's of other people could have enjoyed.as a matetr of fact ive seen more people climbing at horseshoe than at millstone so by your admission millstone is fairer game as its also quarried with some bad quality rock in places.
 Andrew Smith 30 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog:

What a load of balls.

Climbing is fairly subjective. One of my favourite little routes is in Horseshoe, well a couple of routes actually that I have more memories of climbing other than routes such as Eliminate A on Dow Crag, a big raver that I thought was toss.

So because I thought a lakes route was toss, can I dry tool on it?
 Andrew Smith 30 Dec 2010
In reply to Anonymous: I would edge my bet's that you live within spitting distance of the mountains. Some of us do not, and respect the resource that we have on our door step.
 3 Names 30 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog:

Like you said above, you dont climb there so why would you care.

What a great attitude!

 3leggeddog 30 Dec 2010
In reply to beastofackworth:

This is getting silly.

Our ethics shoot us in the foot wrt low/mid grade sport climbing (rightly so). With the exception of Portland there are no quality sport climbing venues in the low/mid sport grades in the uk, all those routes were climbed trad before the advent of sport climbing. The result of this is that shoddy venues such as horseshoe, foredale etc become popular not because of their quality but because of their bolts.

Scratches on the rock in these venues will hardly "destroy" routes, some holds may depart company a little quicker than they would have otherwise but these are loose venues anyway hence the bolts.

I don't believe you really hold horseshoe in higher regard than millstone so I won't credit that with a reply.

I stand by my opinion that "Keeping the powder dry" is the best course of action here. Ranting about a few scratches at a poor venue belittles the arguement for the big game.

Time for us to agree to disagree and for me go to bed. Big training ride in the morning.

All the best
banned profile 74 30 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog: whatever fella,i still dont value your argument because i think that majority rules with something like this and the majority of people would rather not see people dry tooling existing rock climbs,full stop end of
 Feeling bold 31 Dec 2010
In reply to beastofackworth:

DTing is such good fun and a great way to hone winter climbing skills. It would be good if the BMC could be involved in ensuring there is suitable debate and agreement as to which venues are suitable for DT.

I tend to get excited when i see crampon scratches..sorry!


 gingerkate 31 Dec 2010
In reply to beastofackworth:
I agree, I think nickcanute said it right in his OP:
"...keep off existing routes, they should clean and equip their own routes for this specific purpose".



 melville18 31 Dec 2010
In reply to gingerkate:
they should clean and equip their own routes for this specific purpose".

ohh, funny cause even the dirty minging crud has a trad tagg on it even though no one wants 2 climb it till its got scratches on it
 Simon 31 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog:

> crappy venues?so because you dont like it,its a legitimate target?

Crappy due to the low quality of the rock, the climbing and to some extent the surroundings. I agree I don't like climbing in these venues, I don't use them awful venues made popular by a few bolts. These venues are worse than climbing walls, all about training, little pleasure, no heating.



So do you think the BMC should have not tried to save it, despite local support? It's a bigger picture.

Si
 Simon 31 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog:


Scratches on the rock in these venues will hardly "destroy" routes, some holds may depart company a little quicker than they would have otherwise but these are loose venues anyway hence the bolts.


That makes it ok?

 tom290483 31 Dec 2010
In reply to gingerkate:
> (In reply to beastofackworth)
> I agree, I think nickcanute said it right in his OP:
> "...keep off existing routes, they should clean and equip their own routes for this specific purpose".

we do. i've just spent £60 on bolts but i bet the people scratching unsuitable venues wouldnt chip in a few quid to help. they really do ruin the fun for the rest of us and give sensible/competent toolers a bad name.

to me half the problem here is that DT is becoming more and more popular and there arent enough low grade venues equipped to handle it. unless people are willing to travel to white goods or newtyle.

hopefully this will change in time and maybe even larger user groups (clubs etc) might help out. who knows. until then let the abuse continue.
 slacky 31 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog:
> I doubt there is the depth of feeling for Horseshoe that there is for Millstone for example.
>

There was enough for the BMC to purchase it.
 jkarran 31 Dec 2010
In reply to melville18:

> ohh, funny cause even the dirty minging crud has a trad tagg on it even though no one wants 2 climb it till its got scratches on it

Not really. There's acres of filthy perma-wet vegetated cliff dotted around the uk that will never see a 'rock' ascent. Venues like this exist all over the nation and will actually be easier with tools, surely that makes more sense than scratching away at already clean rock. There's no reason whatsoever to gravitate toward relatively clean rock venues or existing routes besides tradition (Cairngorms for example) or a lack of imagination and thought (Millstone being the obvious recent example).

jk
 gingerkate 31 Dec 2010
In reply to tom290483:
I'm not criticising you, or anyone doing similar to you, good luck to you.



gritstoneclimber 31 Dec 2010
In reply to 3leggeddog:

There ARE good routes at Horseshoe and Giggleswick South.

ALL crags need protecting from the dry toolers (very apt name) who are by definition just aid climbers.

I know what I will do if I see anyone doing this on established crags.
In reply to Gary Gibson:

I agree with this Gary and also with the last post from gritstoneclimber.
We need to stand up to these tools (aid climbers)
In reply to Christheclimber:
> (In reply to nickcanute)
>
> The whole issue of dry toolimg needs debating seriously.

I don't think debates actually acheive anything other than inflamed emotions. whats needed are guidelines drawn up by the BMC/SMC etc to avoid ambiguities in what people interpret as 'fair game' for DT.

For the record for the post about aiding and DT being the same, I suggest they try doing both before they come to that conclusion!
 clochette 31 Dec 2010
In reply to nickcanute: I completely agree with you. Having read the other comments I have to say that it's not the quality of the routes that counts. Dry tooling should not take place on any crags, whether they are regarded as classic or not. DT has to have its own dedicated venues - or better, can't people just either rock climb or ice climb?
And I like Horseshoe Quarry, there are some great routes there. Too much route and crag snobism on this post.
 the power 31 Dec 2010
In reply to clochette: too right!
ozzy1978 31 Dec 2010
In reply to nickcanute: "Compare the dickhead.com" If rock is dry use hands and feet. If it is covered in snow, ice, turf, slime, and other shit, use tools. Simples! Personally I cannot see the point of dry tooling, but if folk wish to practice this form then please choose your venue carefully. I imagine it's a bit like trying to celidh dance in ice skates! Don't tell me not to knock it etc.... cos I never will. A very complex debate indeed.
Removed User 31 Dec 2010
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
>
> whats needed are guidelines drawn up by the BMC/SMC etc to avoid ambiguities in what people interpret as 'fair game' for DT.
>
The BMC SW Area has already done this (meeting last November). Dry toolers are asked not to operate at any documented rock climbing crags in the South West.
ice.solo 31 Dec 2010
In reply to nickcanute:

who is that decided dry tooling is aid climbing?

someone whos done neither, or someone whos done both?

im not defending DESTRUCTIVE tooling, ie destroying something valued by non-drytoolers. and im not saying drytooling is less impacting than aid.
im just saying that drytooling is obviously not aid to anyone whose done both (or even seen both) so its uninformed to treat it as such.

yes, you hang off placed bits of metal, but those placements are very different and the routes very differently protected. its immediately apparent to anyone whos done either.

sure, drytooling is A0, but that doesnt make it aid climbing - aid climbing is defined by a helluva lot more than hanging on placements, it has an entirely specialised set of gear, used to protect a different kind of route (many tooling routes would be unprotectable with normal aid), the movements, technicalities and risks of both are very different. the routes (which is what this is all about yeah?) are very different.

criticize aid, tooling, impact all you want - but be informed.
surely after years of lengthy arguments about dry tooling weve all learned enough to not just wallow in emotive and uninformed opinion yet again.
 wilkie14c 31 Dec 2010
In reply to ice.solo:
Very well put.
 R8JimBob88 31 Dec 2010
In reply to nickcanute:

I love horseshoe, some of the routes there really mean a thing or two, not because of the quality etc but for what they mean to ME.

So on behalf of me and lots of my friends that climb there and have had some really good days, please dont ruin it.
 melville18 02 Jan 2011
In reply to jkarran: so cause its filthy perma-wet and vegetated i can dry tool, thank you so much but cram it, its in the name, DRY tooling,if you care to look up climb in the dictionary it says:"ascent made by climbing" not climbed by traditional ethics or climbed by numb nuts with blinkers on, no, it says ascent so take off the blinkers and move over cause we coming out of the swamp to a crag near you
 dcclimb 02 Jan 2011
In reply to nickcanute: blah blah blah blah blah some frenchman told me all british rock is utter choss. fanying on with winter clobber or rock? just sounds daft to me?
gritstoneclimber 02 Jan 2011
In reply to ice.solo:
> (In reply to nickcanute)
>
> who is that decided dry tooling is aid climbing?


In the context of this thread i.e. dry tooling established free rock climbs then by definition dry tooling is clearly aid climbing, as you are not climbing the route free with your digits only.
 niggle 02 Jan 2011
In reply to gritstoneclimber:

Do you campus everything?

Or do you really depend on entirely artificial climbing shoes and chalk without which the climbs would be largely impossible?
gritstoneclimber 02 Jan 2011
In reply to niggle:

No i climb barefoot
gritstoneclimber 02 Jan 2011
In reply to niggle:
> (In reply to gritstoneclimber)
>
> Do you campus everything?
>
> Or do you really depend on entirely artificial climbing shoes and chalk without which the climbs would be largely impossible?

Digits actualy mean fingers and toes, so no I do not campus evrything.
I also do not aid climb free climbs using dry tooling equipment. Get real.
In reply to niggle:
> (In reply to gritstoneclimber)
>
Or do you really depend on entirely artificial climbing shoes and chalk without which the climbs would be largely impossible?


niggle by name niggle by nature

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