/ NEWS: FRI NIGHT VID: Quickdraw Thief Caught!

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UKC News - on 31 Dec 2010
Quick draw thief!, 4 kbIn this video from Ian Caldwell on Vimeo, Ian and his climbing partner catch someone 'stealing' their quickdraws from their sport projects at Smith Rock in America.

On hard sport routes it is common practice to leave your quickdraws in place to make working the route easier, meaning you don't have to replace them each time you visit the crag.

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=59632

rmoffat - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to UKC News: what a c u next tuesday!
N.Gibson - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to UKC News:

Haha, what a dick! Fair play to the other climbers for being so calm about it, nicely handled.
nadeem - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to T-P-F:
stupid beardy bastard. i would crimp his face in.
Gob_Stopper on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to UKC News: Would love to know what went through the guys head when the dude with the camera (Ian?) shouts "They're my draws, I was here 2 days ago, they're all fine" haha eejit
Olaf Prot - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to T-P-F:


Yes, admirable restraint shown. I would have been sorely tempted to thump the Jeremy Hunt...

...largely for the beard, but I'd have kicked him a couple of times for the draws too.
Duncan Campbell - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to UKC News: White trash to the max!
Quarryboy - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to UKC News:

I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for saying this, but to be fair if I happened to be climbing there and saw a load of draws just hanging on a route I probably would have nabbed them too.

Like if I find a stuck cam or wire which has just been left, providing I can get it out I keep it.

Justin T - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to Quarryboy:

Really? If not just one escape biner but all the draws on a route were in would that not ring any bells with you? And if it was your first time at a crag and you walked about and not just one but several routes were fully geared, you wouldn't feel any pang of conscience in stripping as many as you could?

As for the stuck cam / wire that's a little different, one bit of gear that's obviously been abandoned normally because the second couldn't get it out is a different question. I'd like to think perhaps you'd think to post on here before claiming it crag though, I know I would (have done).
grant727 - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to Quarryboy:
My advice would be not to go sport climbing then, especially to places like Ceuse or Kalymnos, or in fact anywhere really as you may just end up in a film like this.
highclimber - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to UKC News: The 'theif' deosn't look like your archetypal climber, does he?! i'd have snapped his clipstick for being a gentleman's genitalia! well done those men.

and Quarryboy, I hope this vid and everyone else's comments make you think twice before 'cleaning' someone else's redpoint 'draws! shame on you.
Quarryboy - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to UKC News:

Ok if there was more than one route equipped I would have twigged but at every sport crag I have ever climbed at I have never seen or found any quickdraws on routes. (and I have been sport climbing outside the UK)
Ben Briggs - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to Quarryboy: Its very different from cleaning a stuck cam or wire which is fair enough, if the owner wanted it they should have retrieved it them selfs. In this case its clear they have been left deliberatly as is common on hard sport routes and its just stealing.

They did really well to keep so calm about it!
Quarryboy - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to Ben Briggs:

In that case why aren't half the routes in the UK equipped, as half the sport climbers out there seem to waste there time dogging routes every time they go to a crag.
Duncan Campbell - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to Quarryboy: If there are draws in EVERY bolt including the lower-offs then it is obvious they have been lef there on purpose, fair enough one draw, or a lower off krab!

The Ivanator - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to Quarryboy: The one time I found a route fully equipped (on a UK crag) it was due to the fact that the climber had fallen at the end of the previous day and had to be evacuated with an injury. After posting on here he was reunited with his gear, having it swagged by an unscrupulous individual would really have rubbed salt in the wounds.
The feeling of having done something decent for a fellow climber is far more valuable than a few bits of gear.
Quarryboy - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to UKC News:

Despite the ethics I will never leave all my draws in a route whilst I work it because I know that they will be gone within a few days.

Another question: If someone leaves draws in a route are you allowed to do the route clipping their draws providing you don't remove them?
jkarran - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to Quarryboy:

Fair enough if you don't know any better, we all make gaffes but this joker certainly appears to know what's what.

It's quite interesting that you'd assume it was ok to strip an equipped route. I must confess, if I left my 'draws in anything remotely accessible on a uk cliff I'd expect them to be gone within a week or two.

jk
JKinsella - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to Quarryboy:

That would probably be fine. In England (I'd imagine) the owner of the draws would be too far away, and you could ask to be polite.
stewieatb on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to Quarryboy)
>
> Fair enough if you don't know any better, we all make gaffes but this joker certainly appears to know what's what.

Yeah, it's nothing more or less than theft and he knows it. "Oh they're really worn.." The fact that he was nicking lower-off biners doesn't help his case.
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efrance24234 - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to UKC News: he looks like a propper wierdo the guy... it must have been very alkward for the girl who was with him haha
alx - on 31 Dec 2010
In reply to Quarryboy:


I don't understand this logic.

If it isn't yours, leave it alone. How hard can it be?
Quarryboy - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to alx:
Errm if no one is around and something is left there then its yours for the taking that's the logic :)

valentinesbabe - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:
If it was one piece you could be forgiven for thinking someone had forgotten it when cleaning the route...but a whole line???? I don't think so!
valentinesbabe - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:
Okay,...I've checked your profile and see that you're only fifteen...but am surprised that you haven't yet developed a decent set of morals...if it's there and no one is around and you know it isn't yours, it's there for you to take to the police station and wait to see if it's claimed...then if it isn't, it becomes yours...otherwise the intent to permanently deprive it's owner makes it theft...here endeth the lesson!!!!
sutty on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:

15 yeqars old and you still do not know what theft is?

>Errm if no one is around and something is left there then its yours for the taking that's the logic :)

Fine, found your bike lying against a wall, must be abandoned, better take it.

found a sports car in the street, better take it.

Found Quarryboys rucksack outside a cafe, better take it as nobody is around.

Sound good to you?

Someone cleaned our gear off Mecca years ago, it went dark before second could follow then next morning it was all encased in ice so we left it till later to thaw out a bit, and someone chipped it out while we were away.
Few months later we saw some of my gear on a rack of someone else, steel krabs all die-stamped. Asked for them back, said they were his, showed him my name and took all the gear and the sack they were in, obviously all my gear. He lost a sack through it, we dumped his clothing outside for him.
James Oswald - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to UKC News:
Quarryboy, do you really think that the draws you'd have hypothetically "found" on this route could be returned to the person without taking reasonable steps? It's obvious how they were put there, they were left by someone redpointing. It's obvious. Very very few people are stupid enough to leave quickdraws (a full route of quickdraws) hanging on a route and "forget" them. It is irrelevant if you are 15. The question is - do you think they could be returned by reasonable steps? If you do think they could be then it's stealing.
A video taken of a horrible guy. Respect to those filming it for keeping their cool.
James
Coel Hellier - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:

> Like if I find a stuck cam or wire which has just been left, providing I can get it out I keep it.

The law on this turns on whether the property has been "abandoned", meaning that the owner has no intention of trying to retrieve it. If it is reasonable to suppose that something has been abandoned, such as stuck gear, common law allows you to take it and claim ownership.

However, this does not apply whenever it is reasonable to suppose the owner intends to return for it or will attempt to retrieve the item. So, if you find a rucsac and boots stowed under a rock beneath a crag, it is reasonable to suppose the owner intends to retrieve them, even if you cannot see anyone around. Ditto for a set of draws in a sports route. Ditto for a wallet you find lying on a counter. In all such cases you have no right to the property and may not take it as yours.

For a fuller account see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost,_mislaid,_and_abandoned_property
gunbo - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to UKC News: I Have to admit if I went to a crag and there was an entire route with quickdraws in place common sense and common decency would say they were there for a reason. On the other hand a solitary peice of gear is a freebie and yours for the taking. I was bouldering in the lakes and left a bag with wallet keys iPhone walking boots in amongst some rocks and a rambler started looking through it a quick shout down and he left. The thing was I was about an hours walk from anywhere so I thought it was plain to see it's here for a reason leave me here not all people have the same morals though
Quarryboy - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to UKC News:

In this case why aren't more routes equipped with quickdraws?

Fine if you walked down a street and found a bike you probably wouldn't pick it up, but if your on a cliff in an environment with noone around and found a bunch of quickdraws I think most people would be tempted to take a few if not all of them.
remus - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy: There is no argument. It is stealing and it's wrong. Whats the difference between stealing a bike you find on the street and stealing quickdraws left on a route?
AJM - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:

Judging by the replies on this thread, it would seem thankfully that "most people" aren't thieving opportunistic scum. Seriously, if you see an entire line of draws on all the bolts in a route and your thought pattern goes "someone must have just left these here, I'll just help myself to a few, I can't see anyone who might object" then you're a proper lowlife.
andrusht84 - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to rmoffat: hahaha brilliant.
Quarryboy - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to remus: What's the differenced between finding a bunch of quickdraws in an incredibly remote location I.e. mount Asgard and finding a bunch in somewhere like Malham, you would probably take the ones on Asgard but not those in Mallam.

Because you would assume that those in a remote location have been abandoned despite the fact they may not have been.

If you leave all your quickdraws in a route that's fine with me but I can assure you that in no time at all they will be gone.
Coel Hellier - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:

> In this case why aren't more routes equipped with quickdraws?

For the same reason that people lock their houses when they go out -- despite the fact that it is both illegal and immoral to walk in and steal something.
Jamie B - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:

> why aren't half the routes in the UK equipped; half the sport climbers out there seem to waste there time dogging routes every time they go to a crag.

Is dogging a waste of time? Arguably less so than making repeated flashes of routes within ones comfort zone.

Quarryboy - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Yes. Its just a means that people use so they can climb routes beyond their own ability, the best tactic to improve with sport climbing is trying to onsight lots of routes on the edge of your ability.
Adam Lincoln - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:

Taking quickdraws left in a sport route is wrong. Most places in the world you would get a smack in the mouth if caught doing it. End of story. Its just accepted practice.
James Oswald - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:
Yes. Its just a means that people use so they can climb routes beyond their own ability, the best tactic to improve with sport climbing is trying to onsight lots of routes on the edge of your ability.

Says whom? You? I think a lot of people here will testify that they learnt a lot from redpointing hard routes.
I however, like you haven't asked these people.
James
Quarryboy - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to James Oswald:

I know people who have waisted half there life dogging sport routes thinking that one day they are going to do it, when really if they just stopped wasting there time and went climbing normally trying lots of routes that are realistic for them they would improve a lot quicker and have a significantly improved chance of doing the route they would like to do.

This is why I like trad climbing. Because it removes the option of just dogging a route when you get pumped or scared and forces you to man up and keep climbing. Therefore you get a great climbing experience and don't just feel like you've cheated yourself by sitting on the rope when you know that you could have done the route.
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Adam Lincoln - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:
> (In reply to James Oswald)
>
> I know people who have waisted half there life dogging sport routes thinking that one day they are going to do it, when really if they just stopped wasting there time and went climbing normally trying lots of routes that are realistic for them they would improve a lot quicker and have a significantly improved chance of doing the route they would like to do.

Yeah, people like Chris Sharma, Steve McClure, Adam Ondra are wasting their time and are not improving.
Quarryboy - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

You say Adam Ondra but most of the time he spends no longer than a day or 2 to climb a route.
slacky on 01 Jan 2011
James Oswald - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:
"I know people who have waisted half there life dogging sport routes thinking that one day they are going to do it, when really if they just stopped wasting there time and went climbing normally trying lots of routes that are realistic for them they would improve a lot quicker and have a significantly improved chance of doing the route they would like to do"

Do you really think that it is wasted in trying something hard for yourself? I think most climbers who redpoint routes which are really hard for them don't necessarily do it just because they enjoy the thrill of actually linking the moves in the end. I think (and I've read quite a few accounts from top climbers to testify this) that many people who redpoint hard routes do so because they enjoy the temporary failure which it creates. They enjoy getting thrown off individual moves repeatedly that hard redpointing creates and it seems to me that they enjoy the subsequent learning process. Either way, I'm generalising - climbing is many things to many different people and it isn't always about getting to the top first go. Practicing moves over and over and finally completing them is very satisfying and it's up to you whether you do it or not.
Give it a proper go? Maybe you might like it.
James

P.s. you can dog trad routes by hanging on the gear..
James Oswald - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to James Oswald:
Sorry, the first line should be Do you really think that it is wasted by trying something hard for yourself?
James
Justin T - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:

> I know people who have waisted half there life dogging sport routes thinking that one day they are going to do it, when really if they just stopped wasting there time and went climbing normally trying lots of routes that are realistic for them they would improve a lot quicker and have a significantly improved chance of doing the route they would like to do.
> This is why I like trad climbing. Because it removes the option of just dogging a route when you get pumped or scared and forces you to man up and keep climbing. Therefore you get a great climbing experience and don't just feel like you've cheated yourself by sitting on the rope when you know that you could have done the route.

Oh god. You're now drifting off the original topic, on which you displayed ignorance and a tendency toward theivery, to another where you're displaying new levels of ignorance and arrogance.

All forms of climbing feed into each other. Variety is the spice of life. Most people who climb hard trad also climb hard on bolts and boulder. Dogging sport routes is part of the redpoint process, which is a tactical way of ultimately doing routes right at your physical limit. Similar to bouldering, but with different physical and mental gains.

Climbing lots of routes below your limit is a good way to develop certain skills and will certainly help when it comes to onsighting. You'll get lean, fit and wily, but not anywhere near as strong.

So in the ultimate aim of 'climbing harder' it depends really where your weakness is, at that time, in terms of the type of routes you're motivated by. Weaknesses change as we work on them and grow back if we don't, which is why improvement normally involves doing lots of different things. If you dismiss redpointing out of hand you're losing a very valuable tool for improving some aspects of your climbing and that will ultimately hold you back.

Here endeth the long and probably futile lesson. You could also do with one in basic grammar but I'll leave that to someone else.
jon on 01 Jan 2011
Come on, he's winding everyone up. NO-ONE could be that dumb.
stewieatb on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to jon:
> Come on, he's winding everyone up. NO-ONE could be that dumb.

He's 15. He is that dumb.
jon on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to stewieatb:

Good point.
Quarryboy - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to stewieatb:
<:D

How am I dumb and to be honest there are many people who share the same point of view as me.
Justin T - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:

> there are many people who share the same point of view as me.

There are many people who share various points of view, it doesn't mean they're right.
stewieatb on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:
> (In reply to stewieatb)
> <:D
>
> How am I dumb and to be honest there are many people who share the same point of view as me.

Really? Point them out to me, because it looks like everyone here disagrees with you. You're talking about things you have no understanding of and stating your near-baseless opinions as fact.
Byronius Maximus - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:

You are clearly trying to wind people up here but I thought I'd just say to you that I have heard, first hand, from the the mouth of a very well known climber who has multiple hard sport, trad and winter ascents to his name, that the most satisfying ascents he has completed are the ones which took him days, weeks, months, or even years to complete. You would be a complete fool to accuse him of being someone who needs to "man up and keep climbing", and you would be a complete ignoramus to suggest that he has "waisted (sic) his life".

As an aside, he mentioned this in the context of the current backlash against headpointing.

I haven't really got in to sport climbing yet, and have never headpointed anything, but I can see the appeal of trying something which you initially think is way beyond your own ability but gradually working it out. It must be very satisfying to complete something in that way; the route must come to mean a lot to the person working it in comparison to when you are out onsighting trad routes where your experience of the route usually lasts for an hour at the most (albeit a very intense hour!).

I have just realised that this is all way off topic...so I'll just say that stealing
Byronius Maximus - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Byronius Maximus:

Okay, didn't finish that last sentence! Stealing quickdraws is wrong is what I meant to say! Is there really a discussion to be had on this?
Quarryboy - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to UKC News:

if people want to headpoint or dog routes for days,week,yeas on end that dosen't bother me but I think that to cut yourself off from climbing anything else during that time is simply foolish especially when you could use that time to improve more effectively.

But back to the original topic
I can accept that taking multiple quickdraws off routes is wrong.

James Oswald - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:
I think you'll find that most (but probably not all) climbers who redpoint really hard routes will do it with a base of similar routes below that level. E.g. Dave Macleod climbed several routes in his preparation for Echo Wall (Darwin Dixit, Big Long Now - yes I appreciate that this is a trad route but the same principle applies).
James
Robin Warden - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to UKC News:
To be honest, it makes no sence leaving draws in, as the whole idea is that they are placed on lead, when redpointing the climber should be able to remove a draw from his harness and clip the bolt,then rest. I climb at Kilnsey and have never seen insitue draws on any of the 8c/9a's
abarro81 - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to landskip, quarryboy, dan lane:

Despite the recession, The Christmas Crack Fairy seems to have been overly generous this year...
Franco Cookson on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to UKC News:

The fact that this guy lied about the reason he was stripping a route indicates that he was probably a thief. It is perfectly plausible though that someone can come from an area with no sport climbing and when faced with a cliff full of in situ gear think that it's crag swag.

That's not malicious stealing, the situation with multi-day redpoint ethics merely need to be explained.
The Pylon King on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Franco Cookson:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> The fact that this guy lied about the reason he was stripping a route indicates that he was probably a thief. It is perfectly plausible though that someone can come from an area with no sport climbing and when faced with a cliff full of in situ gear think that it's crag swag.
>
> That's not malicious stealing, the situation with multi-day redpoint ethics merely need to be explained.

I think you would have to be extremely stupid to turn up at a crag, see several routes fully equipped with quickdraws and not think : "theres something going on here that i don't know about or understand so better not touch anything"

It's pretty obvious to anyone with a brain whats been left on purpose or not.
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Tom Last - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Pylon King:

You'd have to be a complete cretin.
Franco Cookson on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Pylon King:

I think you're looking at sport climbing from a position of already understanding it. I personally misinterpreted draws being insitu which nearly led me to take some when I was starting out. In hindsight it could be seen as stupid not to understand people were working the routes, but it's something you just don't see in trad climbing. I asked some people at the crag and they informed me it was wrong to take them (then I got flamed for not understanding it anyway).

This guy however obviously knew it was wrong.
Franco Cookson on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Southern Man:

No need to be so angry.
Tom Last - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Franco Cookson:

Eh? I'm not angry, I'm speculating.
gavinj - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to jon:

Funny - I'd have thought a guide might be more on the educate, teach, support side of things with young people!!

what a bunch of sanctimonius arse!!!!

Quarryboy has the honesty to say he might be tempted to have the draws and gets ripped. He says maybe sports climbers practising might be obsessed, narcissistic and better off leading trad and gets ridiculed. I bet he wears a hoody as well.

Following this Daily Mail rant about THEFT!!! I think I might go after them myself. 95% of the time draws are left because either people cant be arsed to get them at the end of the day or more likely because they want to make sure no-one else goes on the route next morning. Keep Britain tidy!!! Clean up after them!

And on site leads at your limit at places like Gogarth ARE better than sports frigging, this is just true, right and the natural order of things.
James Oswald - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Pylon King:
It's pretty obvious to anyone with a brain whats been left on purpose or not.


Yes it is to most people. But the law for theft requires that the Defendant thinks that the stolen items couldn't be returned without reasonable steps. This is a subjective test - therefore if a jury decided that this guy genuinely thought that the quickdraws were left in place and couldn't be returned by taking reasonable steps then this wouldn't be theft.
James
Franco Cookson on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Southern Man:

I don't think it's necessary or correct to make out people who don't understand sport climbing are cretins.
Robin Warden - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to gavinj: Well said, at last a climber with a brain speaks!
Tom Last - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Franco Cookson:

I agree, I know lots of perfectly intelligent people who have never even heard of 'sport climbing', they do know what theft is though. Therein lies the distinction.
The Pylon King on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Southern Man:
> (In reply to Franco Cookson)
>
> I agree, I know lots of perfectly intelligent people who have never even heard of 'sport climbing', they do know what theft is though. Therein lies the distinction.

Exactly!
MG - on 01 Jan 2011
Taking a whole route of quick draws is clearly wrong. However, the norm in trad climbing if you find something is to take it, perhaps post on here, and then keep if no one says anything. There is clearly room for misunderstanding in some circumstances. Similarly there was a thread a while back where someone was amazed that a sports route had been climbed when it had some tape on the bottom bolt. Such possessiveness would never occur on a trad route so agian, scope for misunderstanding. Any other things us trad climbers should be aware of?
jon on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to gavinj:
> (In reply to jon)
> Funny - I'd have thought a guide might be more on the educate, teach, support side of things with young people!!

Gavin, if you took the time to read what I actually said, ie

> Come on, he's winding everyone up. NO-ONE could be that dumb.

... then you'd see that I thought he must be trolling and therefore I was in fact giving him the benefit of the doubt. You then go on to say:

> 95% of the time draws are left because either people cant be arsed to get them at the end of the day...

... thus exposing how very little you know about the subject. I know no-one who would leave a rack of quick draws on a route bacause they can't be bothered to get them back.
JLS on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to MG:

>"Any other things us trad climbers should be aware of?"

Sport climbing isn't free. Not only should you not nick the any of the bolted down stainless steel bits and bobs you should really think about how to repay the person who put them there. That could be a pint, a donation to any bolt fund or put up a route of your own for others to enjoy.
Quarryboy - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to UKC News:
If you leave stuff on a route you would have to be dumb to assume that its always going to stay there. So unless you want your quickdraws to spontaneously disappear then strip them from the route in question when you have finished with it.

-I always carry an old carabiner that dosent mean much to me on the back of my harness. So that if I ever get stuck on a sport route I can just clip that and then get lowered down and retrieve my quickdraws as I go, luckily I haven't needed to submit to losing my single lone carabiner yet.
Adam Lincoln - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:
> (In reply to UKC News)
> to spontaneously disappear

Is that what they teach you stealing is called in school now?


dunnyg - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to landskip: next time you're there, have a look hrder (once people are climbing there again anyway). If you drop your grade to 8b, I'm sure you will see a few. I did.
Jon_Warner - on 01 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> Ok if there was more than one route equipped I would have twigged but at every sport crag I have ever climbed at I have never seen or found any quickdraws on routes. (and I have been sport climbing outside the UK)


Leaving quickdraws in routes is common practice worldwide. It's clear that you havn't yet climbed enough to fully appreciate this.

Many steep caves esp. in europe are fully equipped.

You might've seen less of this in the UK partly because there are less steep and difficult to equip caves, and perhaps (sadly) because people are worried about them being stolen.


The bottom line is this:
Taking gear from routes is stealing unless it has been abandoned.
A wholly equipped route has CLEARLY NOT been abandoned.
Whether it's a remote location or not has little to do with it.
If in doubt leave it alone. It's not yours.

And chances are that if you do get caught stripping other's gear they won't react as calmly as in this video.
VSclimber on 01 Jan 2011 - host-92-10-173-11.as43234.net
In reply to UKC News:
Quarryboy stated earlier that he accepted that it was wrong to strip a route of quick draws. He has raised some good points that have in my view caused him to receive, too much criticism. Stealing is wrong, but what constitutes theft can be unambiguous.

However deliberately stealing a sack with clothes in it belonging to another climber is theft, no excuses. Likewise thumping or kicking someone would constitute assault, a far more serious offence.
C

MG - on 02 Jan 2011
Out of interest if I find a climb with someone else's quickdraws in can I climb it on their gear or is it considered "booked" until they return?
clochette - on 02 Jan 2011
In reply to MG:

As far as I'm concerned it's fair for you to climb it on their quick draws as of course it doesn't reserve the route in any way. I do, and have never had any problems doing this. I also have no problem with people doing that on routes where I've left them in place. What I would say is that it'd be courteous to leave it as you found it... 1) don't turn draws around so the gates face the other way. 2) If draws are extended, leave them like that. 3) Brush as much of your chalk off the holds.
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Michael Hood - on 02 Jan 2011
In reply to Jon_Warner:
> Many steep caves esp. in europe are fully equipped.
>
> A wholly equipped route has CLEARLY NOT been abandoned.

From a legal point of view, I wonder whether gear in fully equipped caves has been abandoned?

The gear has evidently been left for others to do the route but...
Is there any intent of the original owner to retrieve the gear at some point in the future?
Is there any intent of the original owner to re-use the gear; i.e. do the equipped routes again?

Obviously you'd be a bit of an arse to take such gear but would it actually be theft?
sutty on 02 Jan 2011
In reply to Michael Hood:

Yes. removing gear in caves or routes is theft, and in a cave could lead to a manslaughter charge.

Let me set the scene, someone sets up a rope to climb up on a pothole then enters another entrance that needs roes to descend that get pulled down to use lower down. They get to far end and find the rope they left has now been removed by someone so they are now stuck underground, and if the cave floods before they are found they may drown.

Now how about removing draws from a route, next may be the chain on a sports route, then the hanger at the top so they cannot tie off on that and have to rely on the last bolt which may be loose or faulty with age.

Just leave other peoples gear where it is until asked to remove it by the owner.
Michael Hood - on 02 Jan 2011
In reply to sutty: The caving situation is slightly different because the re-ascent rope is recent rather than a semi-permanent fixture - and I agree that you could see someone ending up on a manslaughter charge in this circumstance.

But in climbing I can't see that there would be any legal culpability to injury sustained because the draws on a sport route had been taken - climbing is a risk sport, you could see that the draws weren't in place, and I think it would be difficult to claim that the lack of draws (rather than the lack of strength/stamina) led to injury.

I can see that the chain and hangers should be classified as permanent fixtures so the removal of them and a subsequent injury would be a different arguement.

My question was more about the technical definition of "abandoned"; would someone be able to nick semi-permanent draws in a climbing cave and then get away with it because of a technicality, and do we (as a climbing community) need to be aware of this if it isn't technically theft?

Having said all that, the reason draws tend to be semi-permanent on these cave roofs is presumably because they're a pain to take off unless somebody actually seconds/top-ropes the route, but what if leaving draws on routes becomes the norm on less steep ground?
Coel Hellier - on 02 Jan 2011
In reply to Michael Hood:

> My question was more about the technical definition of "abandoned"; would someone be able to
> nick semi-permanent draws in a climbing cave and then get away with it because of a technicality,
> and do we (as a climbing community) need to be aware of this if it isn't technically theft?

If the owner has placed something somewhere for a purpose then it is not "abandoned". For example, if a National Park puts paving slabs down on a moorland path, you cannot come along and take them for your garden by arguing that the owner has no intention of ever retrieving them and thus they are "abandoned".
Adam Lincoln - on 02 Jan 2011
In reply to Michael Hood:
> but what if leaving draws on routes becomes the norm on less steep ground?

Heaven forbid!
jon on 02 Jan 2011
In reply to sutty:
> (In reply to Michael Hood)
>
> Yes. removing gear in caves or routes is theft, and in a cave could lead to a manslaughter charge.

I think you got the wrong end of the stick when caves were mentioned, Sutty, as Michael says in the next post. However, slightly off topic, but very relevant to what you've said was an incident in France a dozen or so years ago. There had been some animosity between climbers and cavers at some venue due to the habit of the cavers leaving a static rope in place for a long time. It wasn't abandoned and was being used reasonably regularly to access a cave system. A young climber decided to up the ante and he cut the rope some metres below its attachment point. Not long after a caver abseiled down what was left of the rope, in the dark - and sailed off the end of it and suffered multiple fractures and was lucky to live. The climber was jailed. http://www.liberation.fr/societe/0109253026-la-corde-du-speleo-avait-ete-sabotee-trois-jeunes-grimpe...
uremac83 - on 02 Jan 2011
big ups for being so calm, lets hope this guy has learned his lesson and not messed with anyones gear since.
pigeonjim on 02 Jan 2011
In reply to UKC News:

WTF was the purpose of posting this video on UCK? did someone who runs this website not get enough love from santa?
What a total waste of time.
John W - on 02 Jan 2011
In reply to pigeonjim:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> WTF was the purpose of posting this video on UCK?

WTF is the point of your comment? Is this not a climbing-related issue? Oh, and by the way, what is UCK (sic)?
JJL - on 02 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:

> In that case why aren't half the routes in the UK equipped,

Because there still seem to be people like you around. Sadly

Jonny2vests - on 03 Jan 2011
In reply to pigeonjim:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> WTF was the purpose of posting this video on UCK? did someone who runs this website not get enough love from santa?
> What a total waste of time.

Sounds like you're getting 'far too worked up' pidgeon.

Jonny2vests - on 03 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> Ok if there was more than one route equipped I would have twigged but at every sport crag I have ever climbed at I have never seen or found any quickdraws on routes. (and I have been sport climbing outside the UK)

Do you visit many crags with super steep hard routes? No? Mystery solved.
paul__in_sheffield - on 03 Jan 2011
In reply to UKC News: Back to the OP.
I thought that Ian Caldwell behaved himself really well in the video and was a model of restraint when faced with a serial Pikey. I'm not sure everyone would show the same level of sang froid in that situation, so well done that man!
Quarryboy - on 05 Jan 2011
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Quarryboy)

> Do you visit many crags with super steep hard routes?

As a matter of fact I have.
ruaidh - on 07 Jan 2011
In reply to UKC News:

The guys a thief, simple. No difference here from swiping someones mobile phone or handbag. Given the offence is probably difficult to prosecute, a kicking is in order, not 'gentle explanation of the ethics'. A broken nose would be much easier to remember than a lecture.

He deserves a hiding, confiscation of the stolen goods, and a note left on the bottom of the crag informing the owner where to collect.
jon on 07 Jan 2011
In reply to ruaidh:
> (In reply to UKC News)
> He deserves a hiding, confiscation of the stolen goods, and a note left on the bottom of the crag informing the owner where to collect.

Well he certainly got one. This video is worldwide now.

MikeTS - on 07 Jan 2011
In reply to jon:

Best solution would be to tie off really tight his abseil rope. Then he would be stuck!
sasmojo - on 12 Jan 2011
In reply to Quarryboy:
> (In reply to alx)
> Errm if no one is around and something is left there then its yours for the taking that's the logic :)

Sorry all, can't be arsed to read the other posts.

Firstly this guy is a common thief.

Quarryboy, I ask you this. If you lost your wallet, with cards, cash and whatever else in it would you want it returned?

I don't subscribe to crag swag ethic even on trad routes. I find something I post on here or ask near by climbers. If they describe what I have found on a route they get it. Simple!

Just because someone loses/abandons something doesn't mean we can't try returning it.
furrymonkey on 18 Jan 2011
In reply to UKC News: Ive been a climber for nearly 20 years and to me taking stuff from a crag that you dont own is theft. If nobody is around to ask then advertise that you have found items. Today i hear more and more stories about bags etc. getting stolen, it makes me sick. Ive always had great trust in fellow climbers so much that i leave my bike and personal belongings at the base of the crag and expect it to be there when i return from off the routes. Absolute disgrace.

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