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Well the title says most of it really My usual technique is to find 3 decent pieces of gear, and using screw gates and clove hitches, use the rope to rig the anchor. Pro's being, it' super easy to adjust the length between the gear so you can make sure each is evenly loaded + walk yourself into the perfect position. Only need screw gates. Each piece of gear is totally independent, meaning if one were to fail, it wouldn't shock load the system. Super fast to set up.
So it's pretty good, but i have a few concerns.
Not actually with the system, but how you belay up the second.
1: Turns belay loop into a bit of clusterf*ck can get a little awkward then further attaching an ATC/gri gri
2: This really is my biggest problem. the belay runs direct of my harness to the climber. Meaning that if the second falls, i can get yanked about a bit. Or if they dog and rest on the rope, causes my harness to dig in a bit etc
Is there a way to avoid this. If it were sport climbing, i usually clip two draws through the anchor and run the rope through this, then to my harness/climber. This means that any load is held on the draws, not directly on my harness. Or if there is ring anchor, i just run my gri-gri direct off the ring, not on my harness at all.
Is there a way to replicate this in trad, or am i find just doing what im doing. Such as build a mini-anchor to run the rope through, though this isn't always an option because the gear placements arn't always available.
Any one have a better way of doing things?
So it's pretty good, but i have a few concerns.
Not actually with the system, but how you belay up the second.
1: Turns belay loop into a bit of clusterf*ck can get a little awkward then further attaching an ATC/gri gri
2: This really is my biggest problem. the belay runs direct of my harness to the climber. Meaning that if the second falls, i can get yanked about a bit. Or if they dog and rest on the rope, causes my harness to dig in a bit etc
Is there a way to avoid this. If it were sport climbing, i usually clip two draws through the anchor and run the rope through this, then to my harness/climber. This means that any load is held on the draws, not directly on my harness. Or if there is ring anchor, i just run my gri-gri direct off the ring, not on my harness at all.
Is there a way to replicate this in trad, or am i find just doing what im doing. Such as build a mini-anchor to run the rope through, though this isn't always an option because the gear placements arn't always available.
Any one have a better way of doing things?
In reply to Kemics:
Yes, it's known as a "direct belay". Anchors need to be bombproof as they will be loaded. Best to use a "guide plate" type belay device (eg Petzl Reverso or ATC Guide) so that if the second falls you don't have to try to hold their weight.
Search for "direct belay" using the forum search for more info. For starters see:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=188017
> Is there a way to replicate this in trad, or am i find just doing what im doing. Such as build a mini-anchor to run the rope through, though this isn't always an option because the gear placements arn't always available.
Yes, it's known as a "direct belay". Anchors need to be bombproof as they will be loaded. Best to use a "guide plate" type belay device (eg Petzl Reverso or ATC Guide) so that if the second falls you don't have to try to hold their weight.
Search for "direct belay" using the forum search for more info. For starters see:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=188017
In reply to Kemics:
Sounds like a standard multi-pitch belay. The only time I've direct belayed (i.e. having the belay device directly attached to the belay rather than my harness) is in the alps or on things like the Cuillin Ridge where setting up a full belay will just slow things down.
One thing you can do is have a separate attachment point above you and run the rope(s) through that so if your second falls then the pull on your harness is upwards.
ALC
Sounds like a standard multi-pitch belay. The only time I've direct belayed (i.e. having the belay device directly attached to the belay rather than my harness) is in the alps or on things like the Cuillin Ridge where setting up a full belay will just slow things down.
One thing you can do is have a separate attachment point above you and run the rope(s) through that so if your second falls then the pull on your harness is upwards.
ALC
In reply to Kemics:
I assume by belay loop you're meaning the knot loop? If not then there'e a start, you should be tying/clipping your belay gear back to the knot loop rather than your harness' belay loop. You then also belay off the knot loop, this in theory gives you a few inches of freedom to move about and some isolation from the belay loads. In practice it doesn't always work out great but that's life, it's better than building everything off the harness.
The belay can often be made a little less messy by keeping as many of the knots/strands as possible away from the harness, usually at the cost of a little simplicity. Personally I hardly use any krabs in a belay, I just knot back to the tie in loop which gets pretty bulky but rarely causes any issues.
You can also direct belay as you do when sport climbing. You basically build your belay without you in it to form an equalised strong point. You attach yourself to this with enough rope so you can sit/stand comfortably then you attach your belay device to the strong point, this needs to be a magic/guide plate type device or something else that can be locked with the live and dead ropes parallel like an Italian hitch. As you mention you can also run the second's rope through a runner slightly above you (can be all or part of the belay or the first runner of the next pitch), this adds useful friction but there's a risk of a significant fall should the runner fail so it has to be good! Doing this also means you're pulled upwards rather than downwards should the second fall, something that can be of considerable value.
jk
I assume by belay loop you're meaning the knot loop? If not then there'e a start, you should be tying/clipping your belay gear back to the knot loop rather than your harness' belay loop. You then also belay off the knot loop, this in theory gives you a few inches of freedom to move about and some isolation from the belay loads. In practice it doesn't always work out great but that's life, it's better than building everything off the harness.
The belay can often be made a little less messy by keeping as many of the knots/strands as possible away from the harness, usually at the cost of a little simplicity. Personally I hardly use any krabs in a belay, I just knot back to the tie in loop which gets pretty bulky but rarely causes any issues.
You can also direct belay as you do when sport climbing. You basically build your belay without you in it to form an equalised strong point. You attach yourself to this with enough rope so you can sit/stand comfortably then you attach your belay device to the strong point, this needs to be a magic/guide plate type device or something else that can be locked with the live and dead ropes parallel like an Italian hitch. As you mention you can also run the second's rope through a runner slightly above you (can be all or part of the belay or the first runner of the next pitch), this adds useful friction but there's a risk of a significant fall should the runner fail so it has to be good! Doing this also means you're pulled upwards rather than downwards should the second fall, something that can be of considerable value.
jk
In reply to Kemics: As jkarren says, if you use your knot loop rather than your harness loop to reattach to, this has some advantages.
- your belay is kind of semi direct and the load shouldnt yank onto your harness as much.
- you have a little more freedom to move around.
- miniscule extra amount of shock absorbtion in the system
- possibly most importantly, if the shit hits the fan, this attachment makes it easier to start escaping the system.
- I stack all my clovehitch krabs on one side of the knot and my belay device on the other side of the knot (hope this is clear?)
Re the clove hitches - if you anchors are out of reach, just loop (dont clovehitch) the rope through the anchor krabs. This makes it easy to walk back towards the edge with the anchors self equalising and tensioning and then attach to your rope loop with clove hitches.
Thirdly - as years have gone on, I use maybe only one screwgate on my best anchor now and happy to use snaplinks on the other 1 or 2 anchor points. But obviously all screwgates on my rope loop. If Im working on group setups - screwgates on everything.
Cheers
David
- your belay is kind of semi direct and the load shouldnt yank onto your harness as much.
- you have a little more freedom to move around.
- miniscule extra amount of shock absorbtion in the system
- possibly most importantly, if the shit hits the fan, this attachment makes it easier to start escaping the system.
- I stack all my clovehitch krabs on one side of the knot and my belay device on the other side of the knot (hope this is clear?)
Re the clove hitches - if you anchors are out of reach, just loop (dont clovehitch) the rope through the anchor krabs. This makes it easy to walk back towards the edge with the anchors self equalising and tensioning and then attach to your rope loop with clove hitches.
Thirdly - as years have gone on, I use maybe only one screwgate on my best anchor now and happy to use snaplinks on the other 1 or 2 anchor points. But obviously all screwgates on my rope loop. If Im working on group setups - screwgates on everything.
Cheers
David
In reply to Kemics:
yeah i only put a clove hitch on my harness biners. So you dont attach anything through your belay loop? Everything goes on the rope loop?
yeah i only put a clove hitch on my harness biners. So you dont attach anything through your belay loop? Everything goes on the rope loop?
In reply to Kemics:
This is basically what I usually do. The only differences are that I only usually use two pieces of pro if I am very happy with them. If I'm close enough to the gear to allow then I put the screw gates directly onto them and tie off so there are no additional crabs at the tie in point. If I am to far from the gear to do this, and the angle between the ropes coming back from them isn't too great I tie both ropes back into a single large crab, (DMM Boa,) so again reducing the number of crabs at the tie in point.
This is basically what I usually do. The only differences are that I only usually use two pieces of pro if I am very happy with them. If I'm close enough to the gear to allow then I put the screw gates directly onto them and tie off so there are no additional crabs at the tie in point. If I am to far from the gear to do this, and the angle between the ropes coming back from them isn't too great I tie both ropes back into a single large crab, (DMM Boa,) so again reducing the number of crabs at the tie in point.
In reply to Kemics:
Personally I tie off on my rope loop (rope through anchor then directly tied off - no karibiners needed). I belay off my belay loop. I don't think the method matters that much - much more important IMO to work out the best stance / seating position bearing in mind the anticipated load direction and bacve the belay adjusted accordingly.
Personally I tie off on my rope loop (rope through anchor then directly tied off - no karibiners needed). I belay off my belay loop. I don't think the method matters that much - much more important IMO to work out the best stance / seating position bearing in mind the anticipated load direction and bacve the belay adjusted accordingly.
In reply to Kemics:
Yep - everything on the rope loop.
I think I only use the harness loop for abseiling and for belaying at the climbing wall/sport climbing. Never in trad.
Yep - everything on the rope loop.
I think I only use the harness loop for abseiling and for belaying at the climbing wall/sport climbing. Never in trad.
In reply to Kemics:
If I am within reach of the gear, I usually just tie my climbing rope direct to the gear. Using both my ropes, this means that no extra knots are added to my harness for two out of three bits of gear.
For any extra gear, or bits out of arms reach, I tie off on a single screwgate on my harness belay loop, therefore just adding a single krab to my harness.
I make sure that my belay runs straight to the rope leading to the second. I position myself sideways, so that no load goes onto my harness. If you are getting yanked about, the line of the load is not going straight to your belay - maybe you are standing out of line of the belay, or have slack in the system?
I do use alternatives, depending on the situation. I don't think that there is ever only one answer which is "the best". I think it is worth have a toolbox of ways of belaying, so that you can pick the most suitable for the stance, gear and climb.
> 1: Turns belay loop into a bit of clusterf*ck can get a little awkward then further attaching an ATC/gri gri
If I am within reach of the gear, I usually just tie my climbing rope direct to the gear. Using both my ropes, this means that no extra knots are added to my harness for two out of three bits of gear.
For any extra gear, or bits out of arms reach, I tie off on a single screwgate on my harness belay loop, therefore just adding a single krab to my harness.
> 2: This really is my biggest problem. the belay runs direct of my harness to the climber. Meaning that if the second falls, i can get yanked about a bit. Or if they dog and rest on the rope, causes my harness to dig in a bit etc
I make sure that my belay runs straight to the rope leading to the second. I position myself sideways, so that no load goes onto my harness. If you are getting yanked about, the line of the load is not going straight to your belay - maybe you are standing out of line of the belay, or have slack in the system?
I do use alternatives, depending on the situation. I don't think that there is ever only one answer which is "the best". I think it is worth have a toolbox of ways of belaying, so that you can pick the most suitable for the stance, gear and climb.
In reply to Kemics: I am not a big fan of the direct belay, not for the reasons you site, but simply because if you are sitting down and your anchors are quite low down, there is no way to arrange the ropes easily so that one isn't cutting off the circulation to your leg should your second fall. To this end, I always create a loop in my rope about 1m from my harness and use this as the centre piece for all the knots. It also means you can escape the system by simply undoing your tie-in knot on your harness.
In reply to David Hooper:
I think you should clarify that that is a personal choice and that belaying off the belay loop is in no way dangerous.
Do you always tie onto the bottom of the rope to belay before your mate sets of leading?
> (In reply to Kemics)
>
> Yep - everything on the rope loop.
>
> I think I only use the harness loop for abseiling and for belaying at the climbing wall/sport climbing. Never in trad.
>
> Yep - everything on the rope loop.
>
> I think I only use the harness loop for abseiling and for belaying at the climbing wall/sport climbing. Never in trad.
I think you should clarify that that is a personal choice and that belaying off the belay loop is in no way dangerous.
Do you always tie onto the bottom of the rope to belay before your mate sets of leading?
In reply to EeeByGum: To get the most out of a direct belay it needs to be above you. In a standing position this usually means at least around chest height. I use direct belays whenever the situation allows as I find it more comfortable on the stance, less strain in the event of the second falling and gives me additional flexibility/safety to do other things like take photos, have a bite to eat, set up abseils and rescue ropes etc. My experience is the opposite of yours, I find that it keeps the ropes out of the way far more effectively.
Al
Al
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
I am not quite sure what that means. A direct belay is not like a day out in Paris. I find they work fine no matter where they are located. However you construct them, they give you more choice about where you want to sit / stand and more importantly, you never need to feel like your leg is being amputated every time your second falls or rests on the rope.
> To get the most out of a direct belay
I am not quite sure what that means. A direct belay is not like a day out in Paris. I find they work fine no matter where they are located. However you construct them, they give you more choice about where you want to sit / stand and more importantly, you never need to feel like your leg is being amputated every time your second falls or rests on the rope.
In reply to EeeByGum:
I've thought about doing this but haven't actually tried it yet. What knot do you use, fig 8 on the bight?
> (In reply to Kemics) To this end, I always create a loop in my rope about 1m from my harness and use this as the centre piece for all the knots. It also means you can escape the system by simply undoing your tie-in knot on your harness.
I've thought about doing this but haven't actually tried it yet. What knot do you use, fig 8 on the bight?
In reply to EeeByGum:
Witty sarcasm aside , what I mean is that I find that the most comfortable position for taking the rope in is to stand with the anchor at chest height.
Al
> (In reply to Al Randall)
> [...]
>
> I am not quite sure what that means. A direct belay is not like a day out in Paris.
> [...]
>
> I am not quite sure what that means. A direct belay is not like a day out in Paris.
Witty sarcasm aside , what I mean is that I find that the most comfortable position for taking the rope in is to stand with the anchor at chest height.
Al
In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
>what I mean is that I find that the most comfortable position for taking the rope in is to stand with the anchor at chest height.
Agreed!
> Witty sarcasm aside
Apologies - you aren't allowed to post on C0cktalk these days unless you offer some sort of unfunny put down to posts you reply to. >what I mean is that I find that the most comfortable position for taking the rope in is to stand with the anchor at chest height.
Agreed!
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Not dangerous Tom - but more faff if the need to escape the system should arise + with the discomfort of a potential load directly onto your harness - why would you bother?
Nope - if seconding on single pitch, Ill often beay off the harness loop and then just clip in to an alpine butterfly - saves the leader taking all the rope in + if there are 3 of us, we can all get a go on the same rope without lowering it back down.
> (In reply to David Hooper)
> [...]
>
> I think you should clarify that that is a personal choice and that belaying off the belay loop is in no way dangerous.
> [...]
>
> I think you should clarify that that is a personal choice and that belaying off the belay loop is in no way dangerous.
Not dangerous Tom - but more faff if the need to escape the system should arise + with the discomfort of a potential load directly onto your harness - why would you bother?
>
> Do you always tie onto the bottom of the rope to belay before your mate sets of leading?
> Do you always tie onto the bottom of the rope to belay before your mate sets of leading?
Nope - if seconding on single pitch, Ill often beay off the harness loop and then just clip in to an alpine butterfly - saves the leader taking all the rope in + if there are 3 of us, we can all get a go on the same rope without lowering it back down.
In reply to Kemics:
When multi-pitching I like building my belays with an Cordelette;
like so:
http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/Products/Slings/Cordelette/
This has a few advantages,
1)so much quicker then faffing about with rope.
2)out of the system so if your not alternating leads your ready to go
3)if you use 3 gear placements; this give you 3 loops after the overhand knot. 1st 1 for you, 2nd 1 for the belay plate and the 3rd for your partner when they get to the belay.
4) you don't get pulled off your feet if a fall happens.
Hope this helps
When multi-pitching I like building my belays with an Cordelette;
like so:
http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/Products/Slings/Cordelette/
This has a few advantages,
1)so much quicker then faffing about with rope.
2)out of the system so if your not alternating leads your ready to go
3)if you use 3 gear placements; this give you 3 loops after the overhand knot. 1st 1 for you, 2nd 1 for the belay plate and the 3rd for your partner when they get to the belay.
4) you don't get pulled off your feet if a fall happens.
Hope this helps
In reply to Chi Cheng:
1. Quicker than tying 2 clove hitches?
2. Agree, but switching leads I'd say is more normal for established partners.
3. Everyone should clip every loop.
4. Not sure I understand why you'd get pulled off your feet any differently.
1. Quicker than tying 2 clove hitches?
2. Agree, but switching leads I'd say is more normal for established partners.
3. Everyone should clip every loop.
4. Not sure I understand why you'd get pulled off your feet any differently.
In reply to jonny2vests:
I think he means you don't get pulled because it's usually a direct belay with a guide plate. Cordelettes are/were popular with guides - I think they were actually invented by the French guiding community - because the guide is always leading, so building a belay with the rope is a PITA. You're right about clipping every loop.
I think he means you don't get pulled because it's usually a direct belay with a guide plate. Cordelettes are/were popular with guides - I think they were actually invented by the French guiding community - because the guide is always leading, so building a belay with the rope is a PITA. You're right about clipping every loop.
In reply to stewieatb:
I've guided myself and know a fair few besides, can't say the cordalette is more or less popular than normal. And it's mostly a yank thing actually.
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
>
> Cordelettes are/were popular with guides - I think they were actually invented by the French guiding community - because the guide is always leading, so building a belay with the rope is a PITA. You're right about clipping every loop.
>
> Cordelettes are/were popular with guides - I think they were actually invented by the French guiding community - because the guide is always leading, so building a belay with the rope is a PITA. You're right about clipping every loop.
I've guided myself and know a fair few besides, can't say the cordalette is more or less popular than normal. And it's mostly a yank thing actually.
In reply to Kemics: Check out John Long & Bob Gaines - Climbing Anchors book http://books.google.com/books?id=zZPEIkIE4toC&printsec=frontcover&d...
Especially interesting is the S.R.E.N.E principle, and the observation that Secure anchors and Equalisation are more significant than Redundancy and No Extension
Especially interesting is the S.R.E.N.E principle, and the observation that Secure anchors and Equalisation are more significant than Redundancy and No Extension
In reply to iksander:
There's no one *right* answer to this since stances and belays are so variable plus it can depend on what you are doing. If you are working on an introductory climbing course for children then there are different concerns to being high on an alpine face trying to avoid a bivouac.
If there is a *gold standard* of belay set-up then it is likely to be that for the introductory course - the three good anchor points all equalised set-up using screwgates on everything - but then if things go wrong you may have to explain things to men in funny wigs and possibly end up having to avoid eye contact in a communal shower! However this is over the top for most recreational climbers since setting up such a belay takes some time and on multi-pitch routes you just don't have that time. If you are on a six pitch route then just five minutes spent setting up each belay is an extra half hour! You can see this in action even at places like Stanage - a climber will spend several minutes getting the "regulation" three pieces in and equalised when just behind him is a block 3m x 3m x1m in size (weight approximately 18 tonnes!!) that he could just flick the rope round and tie back in to in 30 seconds.
For me, points to look for:
1. anchor points sufficient to take expected load. This may be anything from a twenty tonne block to a couple of solid wires to a bucket seat 30m back from the edge of the Cairngorm plateau.
2. Anchor points and stance in line with direction of expected load. Basically so I don't get pulled around on the stance.
3. Somewhere comfy!
After that it's all very variable as to how I tie in to the anchors though I prefer using clove hitches on the anchor points and keeping the harness attachment area clear. Escaping from the system with this form of tie-in is very easy: fo8 on to the dead rope coming from the strongest anchor point; clip the load in to that then backup and finally simply untie, much less faff than with the rope(s) looped through the anchors and tied off at the harness. Adjusting tie-ins like this if they are out of reach from the stance is a little trickier but quite easy and much easier to demonstrate than try and describe it but basically when forming the clove hitch you grab the central loop then walk backwards making sure that you pull on the side that isn't attached to you. When you get to your desired stance pull a bit on your side of the rope then let the hitch tighten up.
Of course, YMMV
ALC
There's no one *right* answer to this since stances and belays are so variable plus it can depend on what you are doing. If you are working on an introductory climbing course for children then there are different concerns to being high on an alpine face trying to avoid a bivouac.
If there is a *gold standard* of belay set-up then it is likely to be that for the introductory course - the three good anchor points all equalised set-up using screwgates on everything - but then if things go wrong you may have to explain things to men in funny wigs and possibly end up having to avoid eye contact in a communal shower! However this is over the top for most recreational climbers since setting up such a belay takes some time and on multi-pitch routes you just don't have that time. If you are on a six pitch route then just five minutes spent setting up each belay is an extra half hour! You can see this in action even at places like Stanage - a climber will spend several minutes getting the "regulation" three pieces in and equalised when just behind him is a block 3m x 3m x1m in size (weight approximately 18 tonnes!!) that he could just flick the rope round and tie back in to in 30 seconds.
For me, points to look for:
1. anchor points sufficient to take expected load. This may be anything from a twenty tonne block to a couple of solid wires to a bucket seat 30m back from the edge of the Cairngorm plateau.
2. Anchor points and stance in line with direction of expected load. Basically so I don't get pulled around on the stance.
3. Somewhere comfy!
After that it's all very variable as to how I tie in to the anchors though I prefer using clove hitches on the anchor points and keeping the harness attachment area clear. Escaping from the system with this form of tie-in is very easy: fo8 on to the dead rope coming from the strongest anchor point; clip the load in to that then backup and finally simply untie, much less faff than with the rope(s) looped through the anchors and tied off at the harness. Adjusting tie-ins like this if they are out of reach from the stance is a little trickier but quite easy and much easier to demonstrate than try and describe it but basically when forming the clove hitch you grab the central loop then walk backwards making sure that you pull on the side that isn't attached to you. When you get to your desired stance pull a bit on your side of the rope then let the hitch tighten up.
Of course, YMMV
ALC
In reply to Kemics:if the belays anchors are close by and above your waiste you can stand up and belay, this means belaying is easier and sorting gear is easier and that if the second falls the force of the fall will go through the anchors not you.
If the anchors are low and therefore you need to sit down, it's worth adding a high anchor if you think the second is heavy and may fall off, even if the high anchor is not bomber or really part of your belay. As long as it's fairly good add it to the belay and the weight of the fall will be held mostly by that anchor, ofcourse if it does pop you'll end up with the rope squashing you but you should be no worse off than without it as long as your belay is well made and equalised. I often find a small nut that is a bit too small to consider for the main belay anchors suffices for this purpose.
If the anchors are low and therefore you need to sit down, it's worth adding a high anchor if you think the second is heavy and may fall off, even if the high anchor is not bomber or really part of your belay. As long as it's fairly good add it to the belay and the weight of the fall will be held mostly by that anchor, ofcourse if it does pop you'll end up with the rope squashing you but you should be no worse off than without it as long as your belay is well made and equalised. I often find a small nut that is a bit too small to consider for the main belay anchors suffices for this purpose.
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