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Hope you don't mind a marketing student posting here!
I'm working with a small group of post graduate students in Manchester, who have been tasked with marketing a new indoor climbing centre.
We need to carry out some research amongst people who use indoor walls - just a few simple questions, nothing too arduous!
If you would be willing to help us out then it would be very much appreciated! Just send me a message and I'll send the questionnaire over to you.
Many thanks!
I'm working with a small group of post graduate students in Manchester, who have been tasked with marketing a new indoor climbing centre.
We need to carry out some research amongst people who use indoor walls - just a few simple questions, nothing too arduous!
If you would be willing to help us out then it would be very much appreciated! Just send me a message and I'll send the questionnaire over to you.
Many thanks!
Above all, good route setting, though almost important is a good variety, with lots of different types of walls, eg, over hanging, caves, slab like structures, stalactites etc...
Almost important, is the atmosphere- good lighting I think is essential, other features that are nice to have are; a drinks machine, or something similar, some changing facilities and toilets etc.
Almost important, is the atmosphere- good lighting I think is essential, other features that are nice to have are; a drinks machine, or something similar, some changing facilities and toilets etc.
In reply to gingerclimber:
Don't be fooled into thinking route setting is important. It isn't. At all.
The key thing to a good climbing centre is tea. Good tea and at a good price. None of this charging £1 for a cup of tea. And none of this rubbish tea, with over boiled water.
Don't be fooled into thinking route setting is important. It isn't. At all.
The key thing to a good climbing centre is tea. Good tea and at a good price. None of this charging £1 for a cup of tea. And none of this rubbish tea, with over boiled water.
In reply to gingerclimber: Email me I will do it.
In reply to gingerclimber:
Yeh you're welcome to drop me one on email as well I'm feeble & fussy... should give you a different take from all the other good climbers on here if you want
Yeh you're welcome to drop me one on email as well I'm feeble & fussy... should give you a different take from all the other good climbers on here if you want
In reply to gingerclimber:
Being the closest to my house seems to be the most important factor for me.
Being the closest to my house seems to be the most important factor for me.
In reply to gingerclimber: Many thanks to everyone who has replied so far - I need more comments though so please let me know and I'll send you a questionnaire!
In reply to gingerclimber:
Marketing it to whom seems to be he obvious question.
I suspect most walls work on new customers rather than marketing to the existing users, depends on their competitor situation.
Marketing it to whom seems to be he obvious question.
I suspect most walls work on new customers rather than marketing to the existing users, depends on their competitor situation.
In reply to gingerclimber:
Having climbed at a really bad wall and one that so far is performing very well (Big Rock) this is what i'd say:
Good supply of snacks at good prices. Dont want to make sure i've stocked up before heading to a wall because they charge double what tesco charge.
Staff who know what they're talking about and are friendly.
Good variety of routes which are changed regularly.
An atmosphere thats friendly and inviting. Small things to encourage climbers to talk to each other etc are great.
Interaction with companies, talks, competitions etc.
Staff who tidy the place throughout the day and not just stand around chatting to each other and other climbers while the piles of muffin cases mount up.
Enough lockers to meet demand. Nudge nudge BR.
A suggestions box that works.
Passion for climbing and not the bottom line.
Having climbed at a really bad wall and one that so far is performing very well (Big Rock) this is what i'd say:
Good supply of snacks at good prices. Dont want to make sure i've stocked up before heading to a wall because they charge double what tesco charge.
Staff who know what they're talking about and are friendly.
Good variety of routes which are changed regularly.
An atmosphere thats friendly and inviting. Small things to encourage climbers to talk to each other etc are great.
Interaction with companies, talks, competitions etc.
Staff who tidy the place throughout the day and not just stand around chatting to each other and other climbers while the piles of muffin cases mount up.
Enough lockers to meet demand. Nudge nudge BR.
A suggestions box that works.
Passion for climbing and not the bottom line.
In reply to gingerclimber:
count me in. but i can tell you now all i really want is to see more climber girls
count me in. but i can tell you now all i really want is to see more climber girls
In reply to gingerclimber:
For me the most important thing is a varity of steepness and good route setting.
For me the most important thing is a varity of steepness and good route setting.
In reply to gingerclimber: why not, you can send me one over if you want
In reply to gingerclimber:
For me, I like everything I experienced today at a climbing centre. Good music at a sensible volume, wide open walls to a good height with a wide range of gradings, helpful staff, reasonable fees, onsite catering (at sensible prices) for taking a break, maybe even a shop (again, sensibly priced) for the odd impulse buy lol.
On the subject of their websites, I like to see what's going on clearly. Used my local wall (a different one to the one I visted today) and found it was full of kids, not many climbing, but all over the place, blocking access to lines, with staff/instructors who didn't seem to really care. If I'd known it was a kids night I wouldn't have bothered going.
For me, I like everything I experienced today at a climbing centre. Good music at a sensible volume, wide open walls to a good height with a wide range of gradings, helpful staff, reasonable fees, onsite catering (at sensible prices) for taking a break, maybe even a shop (again, sensibly priced) for the odd impulse buy lol.
On the subject of their websites, I like to see what's going on clearly. Used my local wall (a different one to the one I visted today) and found it was full of kids, not many climbing, but all over the place, blocking access to lines, with staff/instructors who didn't seem to really care. If I'd known it was a kids night I wouldn't have bothered going.
I climb at the Westway 4/5 times a week. The main reason why I keep going there, rather than switching to the Castle which would be far nearer to my place, is that I favour lead climbing over bouldering. Both centres are otherwise similar in their good’s and their bad’s. As a climber I don't care about many things that I would instead regard as extremely important in any other environment.
The environment
Currently the things that are bothering me the most are spinners and greasy holds. Also, I don't like people top roping for ages in the lead area. Especially when it's clear the place is very busy. My wife is also often complaining about the heaters being off. She's not alone I have to say. However, the heaters at the Westway tend to melt down those who are directly underneath them and leave the rest of the environment just as cold. On the other hand in summer (those 2/3 days a year, that is) the heat is almost unbearable. So I would say a decent heating/cooling system would be a plus, though, to be honest this is probably only a factor in London where most climbers (including myself and my wife) are a bit more "delicate" than everywhere else in the country.
Route setting
This is obviously very important too. At the Westway there is a good variety of setters with guest setters showing up almost every month. Needless to say, the guest setters are consistently far better than the resident ones. This is a perception based on the fact that after few rounds the range of engrams used by the resident setters is well known and at the Westway there is a tendency to set routes and boulders for strong and tall climbers. I can't complain because I'm shortish and weak so that makes it an ideal place for me to train, but strangely enough I climb a full grade harder outdoor whereas I've seen people climbing a full grade or more lower when at the crag. Setters should always bear in mind the purpose of an indoor wall in the first place: it's a training facility. Finally, everyone at the Westway welcomed the new walls (lead and boulder). Not everyone liked them, but everyone appreciated the effort and realized the huge investement that has been made. I felt a little bit privileged that "my" wall was making such investment and seeing it in the making created a lot of expectation and renewed my motivation. Getting rid of the featured walls meant route setters had to make an effort in thinking more about the foot holds. I have not seen this effort yet, but I look forward to when the next guest setter will visit
Opening times
At least in London most climbers climb after work. Imho the wall should remain open until 11 PM on weekdays. I'm fine with it shutting at 8 PM on weekends, that's just sensible.
Safety
This is a tough one, but I've seen too many incidents at the Westway. Whoever is on duty should be very strict when it comes to safety. Once upon a time, I remember one member of the staff being super strict. Things are relaxing a bit nowadays. A bit too much. Tough one I must admit, nevertheless safety is top priority.
Music
Go with some greatest hits, top chart or even the radio. I personally prefer silence. But I have never met anyone at the Westway who actually liked the music there. At times is ok, but too often I have to deal with the worst techno rave party upbeat music available on the black market. It shouldn't be anything inspiring, but at least something neutral and not distracting.
Gym
The Westway has a full featured gym for which they charge extra. This is nothing special, but if it were free to monthly or annual pass holders I'm sure more people would use it. In my experience I've seen many indoor walls offering some sort of gym equipment to complement the ever present fingerboard, campus board, etc. I think offering gym equipment is a good idea and a plus.
Other facilities
Climbers are rough. At the Westway most men and women get changed right at the wall and very few shower after a session. This is not to say changing rooms and showers are not important, they must be part of the offering, but are probably/evidently not as important as other things. The climbing shop at the Westway is the best in London in my opinion and is trading very well I believe. I think a good climbing shop is a plus. Last, but not least, food and drinks. They are also a nice plus, although quality of both does not seem to concern the average climber. A deal with any chain will do.
The environment
Currently the things that are bothering me the most are spinners and greasy holds. Also, I don't like people top roping for ages in the lead area. Especially when it's clear the place is very busy. My wife is also often complaining about the heaters being off. She's not alone I have to say. However, the heaters at the Westway tend to melt down those who are directly underneath them and leave the rest of the environment just as cold. On the other hand in summer (those 2/3 days a year, that is) the heat is almost unbearable. So I would say a decent heating/cooling system would be a plus, though, to be honest this is probably only a factor in London where most climbers (including myself and my wife) are a bit more "delicate" than everywhere else in the country.
Route setting
This is obviously very important too. At the Westway there is a good variety of setters with guest setters showing up almost every month. Needless to say, the guest setters are consistently far better than the resident ones. This is a perception based on the fact that after few rounds the range of engrams used by the resident setters is well known and at the Westway there is a tendency to set routes and boulders for strong and tall climbers. I can't complain because I'm shortish and weak so that makes it an ideal place for me to train, but strangely enough I climb a full grade harder outdoor whereas I've seen people climbing a full grade or more lower when at the crag. Setters should always bear in mind the purpose of an indoor wall in the first place: it's a training facility. Finally, everyone at the Westway welcomed the new walls (lead and boulder). Not everyone liked them, but everyone appreciated the effort and realized the huge investement that has been made. I felt a little bit privileged that "my" wall was making such investment and seeing it in the making created a lot of expectation and renewed my motivation. Getting rid of the featured walls meant route setters had to make an effort in thinking more about the foot holds. I have not seen this effort yet, but I look forward to when the next guest setter will visit
Opening times
At least in London most climbers climb after work. Imho the wall should remain open until 11 PM on weekdays. I'm fine with it shutting at 8 PM on weekends, that's just sensible.
Safety
This is a tough one, but I've seen too many incidents at the Westway. Whoever is on duty should be very strict when it comes to safety. Once upon a time, I remember one member of the staff being super strict. Things are relaxing a bit nowadays. A bit too much. Tough one I must admit, nevertheless safety is top priority.
Music
Go with some greatest hits, top chart or even the radio. I personally prefer silence. But I have never met anyone at the Westway who actually liked the music there. At times is ok, but too often I have to deal with the worst techno rave party upbeat music available on the black market. It shouldn't be anything inspiring, but at least something neutral and not distracting.
Gym
The Westway has a full featured gym for which they charge extra. This is nothing special, but if it were free to monthly or annual pass holders I'm sure more people would use it. In my experience I've seen many indoor walls offering some sort of gym equipment to complement the ever present fingerboard, campus board, etc. I think offering gym equipment is a good idea and a plus.
Other facilities
Climbers are rough. At the Westway most men and women get changed right at the wall and very few shower after a session. This is not to say changing rooms and showers are not important, they must be part of the offering, but are probably/evidently not as important as other things. The climbing shop at the Westway is the best in London in my opinion and is trading very well I believe. I think a good climbing shop is a plus. Last, but not least, food and drinks. They are also a nice plus, although quality of both does not seem to concern the average climber. A deal with any chain will do.
In reply to gingerclimber: A roof.
In reply to wayno265: Oh, and some climbing.
In reply to wayno265:
Believe it or not, that's why I go to the Castle more or less once a month...
> (In reply to gingerclimber) A roof.
Believe it or not, that's why I go to the Castle more or less once a month...
In reply to gingerclimber:
I'd like the marketing to accurately reflect the service provided, I'd also like to be not paying a big premium for the marketing in my entry fee.
What do I want from a wall:
Local
Affordable
Mixed bouldering and lead
Steep flat panels
Not over crowded
Reasonable climatic conditions
Regular and creative re-setting
Consistent grading
Relaxed atmosphere
Drinking fountain
jk
I'd like the marketing to accurately reflect the service provided, I'd also like to be not paying a big premium for the marketing in my entry fee.
What do I want from a wall:
Local
Affordable
Mixed bouldering and lead
Steep flat panels
Not over crowded
Reasonable climatic conditions
Regular and creative re-setting
Consistent grading
Relaxed atmosphere
Drinking fountain
jk
In reply to ncianca:
I find the points raised above interesting. My experience is that 'greasiness" tends to rise with humidity & is much less of a problem when a space is well ventilated so that the moist, sweaty air can escape. Obviously trying to heat a well-ventilated space would be prohibitively expensive.
If I'm right what do you think walls should do? Would a warm area for resting/chatting separate from well-ventilated climbing area be enough?
> The environment
> Currently the things that are bothering me the most are spinners and greasy holds. My wife is also often complaining about the heaters being off. So I would say a decent heating/cooling system would be a plus,
>
> Currently the things that are bothering me the most are spinners and greasy holds. My wife is also often complaining about the heaters being off. So I would say a decent heating/cooling system would be a plus,
>
I find the points raised above interesting. My experience is that 'greasiness" tends to rise with humidity & is much less of a problem when a space is well ventilated so that the moist, sweaty air can escape. Obviously trying to heat a well-ventilated space would be prohibitively expensive.
If I'm right what do you think walls should do? Would a warm area for resting/chatting separate from well-ventilated climbing area be enough?
In reply to i.munro:
Radiant heaters are the usual solution to making well ventilated spaces less unpleasant.
jk
Radiant heaters are the usual solution to making well ventilated spaces less unpleasant.
jk
In reply to i.munro:
For a place like the Westway this is a huge challenge. Controlling the temperature in there is not an easy task. I'm ok with the grill-heaters, they provide a warm oasis in bitter cold conditions. I have to say the Westway is actually well ventilated. It's often quite windy in fact
As for the greasy holds, what I've seen in other continental walls is simply attendants systematically brushing the holds at least once every week. Not manually obviously, that would be enslaving. Also, when resetting the lines a good wash using soap, rather than leaving them in the rain, would help.
> (In reply to ncianca)
>
> [...]
>
> I find the points raised above interesting. My experience is that 'greasiness" tends to rise with humidity & is much less of a problem when a space is well ventilated so that the moist, sweaty air can escape. Obviously trying to heat a well-ventilated space would be prohibitively expensive.
>
> If I'm right what do you think walls should do? Would a warm area for resting/chatting separate from well-ventilated climbing area be enough?
>
> [...]
>
> I find the points raised above interesting. My experience is that 'greasiness" tends to rise with humidity & is much less of a problem when a space is well ventilated so that the moist, sweaty air can escape. Obviously trying to heat a well-ventilated space would be prohibitively expensive.
>
> If I'm right what do you think walls should do? Would a warm area for resting/chatting separate from well-ventilated climbing area be enough?
For a place like the Westway this is a huge challenge. Controlling the temperature in there is not an easy task. I'm ok with the grill-heaters, they provide a warm oasis in bitter cold conditions. I have to say the Westway is actually well ventilated. It's often quite windy in fact
As for the greasy holds, what I've seen in other continental walls is simply attendants systematically brushing the holds at least once every week. Not manually obviously, that would be enslaving. Also, when resetting the lines a good wash using soap, rather than leaving them in the rain, would help.
In reply to jkarran:
Well the Westway use (or used to use) radiant gas heaters. I feel that these make for really bad humidity problems (the waste products being CO2 & water), they are presumably not cheap to run, environmentally dubious & (according to the earlier post ) not that good at satisfying those who want heating. I was wondering if there might be a better solution.
> (In reply to i.munro)
>
> Radiant heaters are the usual solution to making well ventilated spaces less unpleasant.
>
> jk
>
> Radiant heaters are the usual solution to making well ventilated spaces less unpleasant.
>
> jk
Well the Westway use (or used to use) radiant gas heaters. I feel that these make for really bad humidity problems (the waste products being CO2 & water), they are presumably not cheap to run, environmentally dubious & (according to the earlier post ) not that good at satisfying those who want heating. I was wondering if there might be a better solution.
In reply to JimmyKay:
Agreed, also, a good ale pub near by!
T
> (In reply to gingerclimber)
>
> Don't be fooled into thinking route setting is important. It isn't. At all.
>
> The key thing to a good climbing centre is tea. Good tea and at a good price. None of this charging £1 for a cup of tea. And none of this rubbish tea, with over boiled water.
>
> Don't be fooled into thinking route setting is important. It isn't. At all.
>
> The key thing to a good climbing centre is tea. Good tea and at a good price. None of this charging £1 for a cup of tea. And none of this rubbish tea, with over boiled water.
Agreed, also, a good ale pub near by!
T
In reply to gingerclimber: Send me the questionnaire I'll do it
Been thinking about this quite a bit recently when trying to compare walls, so in order of importance...
- time from home/work
- variety of routes at or around my grade
- decent lockers & enough space to get changed (doesn't need to be gold-tapped changing rooms, does need to be somewhere that everyone doesn't end up treading on everyone else's stuff (hint hint the arch though you do well on nearly all the rest)
- friendliness of the atmosphere - do climbers talk to each other?
- quality of the routes
- quality of the music (variety, you can hear it but not deafened)
- helpfulness of the staff
- variety of food/drink on offer (i'll usually bring my own)
- time from home/work
- variety of routes at or around my grade
- decent lockers & enough space to get changed (doesn't need to be gold-tapped changing rooms, does need to be somewhere that everyone doesn't end up treading on everyone else's stuff (hint hint the arch though you do well on nearly all the rest)
- friendliness of the atmosphere - do climbers talk to each other?
- quality of the routes
- quality of the music (variety, you can hear it but not deafened)
- helpfulness of the staff
- variety of food/drink on offer (i'll usually bring my own)
In reply to gingerclimber: I'll fill one out if you still need it..
In reply to JimmyKay:
Could not agree more. Tea is fundamentally the most important aspect to consider when it comes to climbing. Anyone can climb V15, that's not why you go to climbing wall, it's about sipping a nice brew!
> (In reply to gingerclimber)
>
> Don't be fooled into thinking route setting is important. It isn't. At all.
>
> The key thing to a good climbing centre is tea.
>
> Don't be fooled into thinking route setting is important. It isn't. At all.
>
> The key thing to a good climbing centre is tea.
Could not agree more. Tea is fundamentally the most important aspect to consider when it comes to climbing. Anyone can climb V15, that's not why you go to climbing wall, it's about sipping a nice brew!
In reply to gingerclimber: yep, email me and I'll do one, although all you have to do is get on down to Braunton.....
In reply to gingerclimber:
You'll probably get more people to fill out a questionnaire if you create it online in something like survey monkey or survey gizmo...
You'll probably get more people to fill out a questionnaire if you create it online in something like survey monkey or survey gizmo...
In reply to gingerclimber:
If you put the survey online I'll do it. But I'd either like:
A complete recreation of a proper trad & sport crag, i.e. proper rock and no awful plastic crap.
Or a cheap and very nearby out and out training facility. Most climbing walls are crap for pure training. What would be good is the following:
Proper boulders for working technique (i.e real rock)
'normal' indoor walls with lots of circular traverses etc for endurance training
a 'proper' gym
jacuzzi, sauna, decent swimming pool
yoga/pilates classes
physio/sports massage
and ideally within a 10 minute run/walk (or maybe drive)
I will admit, that I find climbing walls stunningly boring. So they'd either have to complete with proper climbing or be a perfect training facility.
If you put the survey online I'll do it. But I'd either like:
A complete recreation of a proper trad & sport crag, i.e. proper rock and no awful plastic crap.
Or a cheap and very nearby out and out training facility. Most climbing walls are crap for pure training. What would be good is the following:
Proper boulders for working technique (i.e real rock)
'normal' indoor walls with lots of circular traverses etc for endurance training
a 'proper' gym
jacuzzi, sauna, decent swimming pool
yoga/pilates classes
physio/sports massage
and ideally within a 10 minute run/walk (or maybe drive)
I will admit, that I find climbing walls stunningly boring. So they'd either have to complete with proper climbing or be a perfect training facility.
In reply to mattrm:
Have you been to any climbing walls which incorporate real rock?
Some of the first climbing walls tried this, and found just how quickly it gets reduced to a polished sheen which makes Avon look like it has great friction.... hence the move to resin holds which can be moved around.
Have you been to any climbing walls which incorporate real rock?
Some of the first climbing walls tried this, and found just how quickly it gets reduced to a polished sheen which makes Avon look like it has great friction.... hence the move to resin holds which can be moved around.
In reply to gingerclimber:
I like:
Walls that have lots of features and NOT just painted smooth plywood. Corners, cracks and aretes. This enables technical routes to be set and not just power routes. I like to climb features for feet on every route.
A few slabs with balancy moves.
A jamming crack.
Steve Mclure to set the routes.
A source of drinking water.
I am not concerned about a cafes serving food and drink.
Cool temperatures do not concern me. I climb outside all year and can dress appropriatly if it is cold indoors.
I like:
Walls that have lots of features and NOT just painted smooth plywood. Corners, cracks and aretes. This enables technical routes to be set and not just power routes. I like to climb features for feet on every route.
A few slabs with balancy moves.
A jamming crack.
Steve Mclure to set the routes.
A source of drinking water.
I am not concerned about a cafes serving food and drink.
Cool temperatures do not concern me. I climb outside all year and can dress appropriatly if it is cold indoors.
In reply to gingerclimber: Drop us an email and ill do one for you!
In reply to gingerclimber: I'd like a centre to have a good variety of walls, not just steep overhanging lead walls, with grades starting at 6b. I like easier angled stuff. Same with bouldering, not every bouldering wall has to be overhanging with big moves to finish.
Centre staff who do not walk round thinking they are better than everybody else, actually, staff who are experienced climbers, who know what they are talking about not just kids who have climbed a bit inside. I have experienced this at so many different walls, many of which I wont go back to because of it.
Ideally, I'd like the kids / group area to be away from everybody else. Im not fussed about shops, cafes etc as I always take my own food with me.
Plenty of car parking. Music that is not too loud (it gives me a headache in some walls I have been to). Not too hot, good decent air con in the summer. Routes changed regularly and holds cleaned regularly.
Centre staff who do not walk round thinking they are better than everybody else, actually, staff who are experienced climbers, who know what they are talking about not just kids who have climbed a bit inside. I have experienced this at so many different walls, many of which I wont go back to because of it.
Ideally, I'd like the kids / group area to be away from everybody else. Im not fussed about shops, cafes etc as I always take my own food with me.
Plenty of car parking. Music that is not too loud (it gives me a headache in some walls I have been to). Not too hot, good decent air con in the summer. Routes changed regularly and holds cleaned regularly.
In reply to tlm:
I have actually. Llangorse, which was crap in many ways and yes, the 'real rock' bit was polished.
It was a bit of a wish list I know, rather fanciful really. I can't imagine anything close to what I'd like actually being built, it'd be too expensive.
I have actually. Llangorse, which was crap in many ways and yes, the 'real rock' bit was polished.
It was a bit of a wish list I know, rather fanciful really. I can't imagine anything close to what I'd like actually being built, it'd be too expensive.
In reply to Profanisaurus Rex: many thanks for your offer - have managed to upload it so you can do it online at: http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=zhqowcfwkmxnukz867934
In reply to JimmyKay:
Spot on, although in my case I'd substitute coffee for tea. Also home made cakes and deep comfy armchairs which provide the ultimate challenge to vacate. If you can tear yourself to leave just one armchair it beats all the route setting in the world.
> (In reply to gingerclimber)
>
> Don't be fooled into thinking route setting is important. It isn't. At all.
>
> The key thing to a good climbing centre is tea. Good tea and at a good price. None of this charging £1 for a cup of tea. And none of this rubbish tea, with over boiled water.
>
> Don't be fooled into thinking route setting is important. It isn't. At all.
>
> The key thing to a good climbing centre is tea. Good tea and at a good price. None of this charging £1 for a cup of tea. And none of this rubbish tea, with over boiled water.
Spot on, although in my case I'd substitute coffee for tea. Also home made cakes and deep comfy armchairs which provide the ultimate challenge to vacate. If you can tear yourself to leave just one armchair it beats all the route setting in the world.
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