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Bowlines for beginners

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 mmmhumous 09 Feb 2011
OK. So I'm finally looking at using a bowline in my climbing instead of a figure eight.........but which one, and which variation, I'm trying to get my head around the various types!

So the Edwards bowline looks too complicated for me (certainly in terms of checking if my partner has tied their's correctly at the wall/crag). On which note, do the decriptions match the photos in the UKC article below? (They seem out of sync to me):
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4

The standard bowline: http://www.westmarine.com/boatsafe/images/bowline.gif looks simple enough to tie and check if it's tied correctly, but how does it compare to the figure eight in terms of strength?

I've just been playing around tying some knots in front of the TV, (and while seaching on UKC), and to me, it seems that the bowline can slip when it's not weighted. The message I've picked up from searching on here, is that a bowline needs either a stopper knot (tied on the loop which is fed through you harness) or a yosemite finish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_bowline in order to prevent it slipping/inverting. Is that correct?

Personally, I prefer the look of the Yosemite finish, as it means I can have a smaller 'harness loop' than I'd need with a stopper.

If tied correctly, is a bowline with a Yosemite finish as strong and/or safe as a Figure eight?

Are their any other options I should be considering? I'm after something which is easily untied if fallen on, and (relatively) easy to check if tied correctly.

 stewieatb 09 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

Yosemite Bowline is a nice knot, I use it with a stopper out of healthy paranoia, and would generally recommend tying it this way. Strength is hardly a factor in these things, but in terms of not slipping, if tied properly (getting the loop at the start right is the important bit) it's as good as a figure of 8 IMO.
 sammycolon 09 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:
The two different finishes are similar, it's just what you get used to.
The world of the bowline is very diverse, and to top it off, even a simple bowline can be tied two diferent ways. Not that it matters in most situations, though I am not a bowline geek - I just like what I tie, so I stick with it.

Pick one, get used to it, use it. As long as the basic knot is at the heart of what you do, the rest is all about keeping the loose end captive and personal preference.

Personally I have no issues with using a stopper knot. I prefer to thread down through the harness first before tying my bowline as this to me provides more space for the stopper when the live end is orientated upwards. (try it if that made any sense to you)

If I need a lot of rope loop or am belaying off it, like when trad on twin ropes, I prefer to use fig eights. Personal preference, I rarely fall or work trad, so tightness isn't normally an issue.

Be safe, K
 another_mark 09 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:
I think the article pics are OK.

Personally I find the rabbitless method of doing a bowline a bit confusing and I suspect that you are getting the same confusion - the second pic?
Its the pulling through to get the loop that always throws me.

I think that you are quite right - without a stopper or rethreading in some way the bowline can come to bits if not weighted.
trimtram 09 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:
did someone suggest using a bowline on the bight for tying in recently ?
i havn't tried it yet. but i do use the BOAB for work.
ice.solo 09 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

try the slip knot version:

nice open slip knot on the bight, put the tail (or even another looped bight) thru the slipping bit, tighten the whole thing making sure the tail (or loop) pops right thru and cinches down - bingo!

easier to do than describe, but 5 mins will do it, have another ties version as a reference.

benefits: very easy one handed, no 'is it this way or that way', very straightforward when done on someone else or an anchor (ie 'backwards').

still wants a stopper knot.

popular with rescue teams as its easy with gloves and by touch.



contrary to popular belief it doesnt involve insane drumming and lyrics about suicide.

 check 09 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous: Why do you want a small harness loop? You'll need this if you need to lock off, add belays and perform rescues if things go wrong.
chucky110 09 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:
while looking at the bowline i would bear in mind that just before christmas there was an example of a bowline not being tied properly and when the guy lent back to be lowered off the knott came undone and he fell. sadly he didnt make it. so be careful ! alot of climbing centres are saying figure of 8 for tieing in
 Sir Chasm 09 Feb 2011
In reply to chucky110: Because kids, gravity doesn't work the same if you fail to tie a figure 8 properly as if you fail to tie a bowline properly.
 EddInaBox 10 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

> So the Edwards bowline looks too complicated for me (certainly in terms of checking if my partner has tied their's correctly at the wall/crag). On which note, do the decriptions match the photos in the UKC article below? (They seem out of sync to me):
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4
They match as far as I can see, except the rabbit-less method of forming the initial bowline in the first two pictures gives a Dutch marine or cowboy bowline, as can be seen in the third picture, not a regular bowline.

> The standard bowline: http://www.westmarine.com/boatsafe/images/bowline.gif looks simple enough to tie and check if it's tied correctly, but how does it compare to the figure eight in terms of strength?
It isn't as strong, but it is still far stronger than you, you will suffer irreparable damage before the knot fails.

> I've just been playing around tying some knots in front of the TV, (and while seaching on UKC), and to me, it seems that the bowline can slip when it's not weighted. The message I've picked up from searching on here, is that a bowline needs either a stopper knot (tied on the loop which is fed through you harness) or a yosemite finish: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yosemite_bowline in order to prevent it slipping/inverting. Is that correct?
Yes.

> Personally, I prefer the look of the Yosemite finish, as it means I can have a smaller 'harness loop' than I'd need with a stopper.
The only slight disadvantage I can think of with the Yosemite finish is that if you leave the tail too long you can reach down to grab the live rope in order to clip but accidentally grab the tail instead. If the tail turns out too long you can always put a stopper knot in to use up the extra, I occasionally do this at a wall where I've been told to use a rethreaded figure of eight because at a casual glance it can easily be mistaken for an untidy Fo8 with a stopper rather than a bowline variant.

> If tied correctly, is a bowline with a Yosemite finish as strong and/or safe as a Figure eight?
Not quite as strong, but see previous reply. As for whether it is safe, don't ask that question unless you want a raging argument lasting several hundred posts between the bowline users and those who are too prejudiced or lazy to learn how to tie it so swear the rethreaded figure of eight is the only knot you will ever need to know.

> Are their any other options I should be considering? I'm after something which is easily untied if fallen on, and (relatively) easy to check if tied correctly.
The double bowline (ABoK #1013) is favoured by some, often foreign climbers, it's good to know it so you can check your partners knot if he or she uses it. It is about as strong a knot as a rethreaded figure of eight but still easy to untie after loading.
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 10 Feb 2011
In reply to chucky110:
> (In reply to mmmhumous)
> while looking at the bowline i would bear in mind that just before christmas there was an example of a bowline not being tied properly and when the guy lent back to be lowered off the knott came undone and he fell. sadly he didnt make it. so be careful ! alot of climbing centres are saying figure of 8 for tieing in

Is this an accepted fact or speculation?


Chris
 EeeByGum 10 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous: If you already tie in with a figure of 8 and are happy with it, why change? Similar argument for any bowline tiers considering a figure of 8.
 EddInaBox 10 Feb 2011
In reply to EeeByGum:

> If you already tie in with a figure of 8 and are happy with it, why change?
Mainly because it is quicker to tie and much easier to undo after being loaded.

> Similar argument for any bowline tiers considering a figure of 8.
A rethreaded figure of eight absorbs more energy than a bowline as it tightens, if your gear is marginal this could be an advantage, other than that I can't really think of a reason.

However that discussion should be carried on on this thread:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=445517&v=1#x6250310
 jkarran 10 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

I just use the standard one with a stopper, not for any good technical reason besides simplicity and it's the one I'm most comfortable with.

jk
 paul mitchell 10 Feb 2011
In reply to jkarran: I use the Yosemite bowline illustrated in the above Wikipedia article.All you do is add an extra loop to the hole the rabbit goes down.It is easier to untie than a figure 8,if you have taken a fall onto it.I put a couple of half hitches on afterwards for good measure.
A very secure knot.

Mitch
 GrahamD 10 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

A standard bowline with a double stopper is easily strong enough and a lot simpler (and therefore IMO safer) than all the other designer variants.
 kingborris 10 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

I like the water bowline personally

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_bowline
 timjones 10 Feb 2011
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to mmmhumous)
>
> A standard bowline with a double stopper is easily strong enough and a lot simpler (and therefore IMO safer) than all the other designer variants.

I'd tend to disagree. IME it's far simpler to use a yosemite finish than it is to tie a well dressed stopper whilst ensuring it's correctly positioned.
DosacV 10 Feb 2011
In reply to Sir Chasm:

Perhaps the point is that, at-a-glance, it's easier to tell if a figure 8 is tied properly.
 GrahamD 10 Feb 2011
In reply to timjones:

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one.
 timjones 10 Feb 2011
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to timjones)
>
> I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

Thats fair enough.

Peoples minds work in different ways and therefore we won't all have the same perceptions of which knots are easiest to tie and easiest to trust once they're tied. I just don't trust a bowline with a stopper as a tie-in, if you're climbing long multi-pitch routes even the best tied and tidiest stopper knots can work loose. Because of this I have an instinctive lack of faith in a bowline plus stopper combination and prefer to use either a Fo8 or a more secure way of backing up a bowline such as the yosemite finish.

In the real world where adults climb outdoors there are few definitive correct answers and it would be a mistake to claim that there are
 GrahamD 10 Feb 2011
In reply to timjones:

To be honest on anything remotely gnarly I resort to the old Fig of 8s ! Bowline for single pitch seconding / sport / wall. Probably not 100 %rational but, as you say, confidence in your chosen set up is essential.
chucky110 10 Feb 2011
In reply to Chris Craggs:
this is what the owner of the climbing centre said to me.
he said it had come from the CWA.
trimtram 12 Feb 2011
In reply to Sir Chasm: totally agree !
why do people think the fig 8 is so foolproof ?
 Bob Kemp 12 Feb 2011
In reply to trimtram:
People like the Figure of Eight because empirical testing has shown that it is one of the strongest knots for tying in - breaks at something like 78% of rope strength. It's also simple in that it doesn't require a stopper knot. But the breaking loads are so high with all of these knots that there are very few (any?) examples of tie-in knots breaking. So what really matters is the possibility of user error, and that's down to your own practice. I haven't used a figure of eight for tying in for donkey's years. I use what's sometimes called a Double bowline with a stopper knot, and because I've used it so long it's the safer option for me.
I don't think I could tie a figure of eight in a rope-end without having to stop and really think about it now.
 Bulls Crack 12 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

As a result of all this discussion re: bowlines I though I'd try them out at the wall yesterday. Not much of an experiment I know but:

I couldn't see much advantage in the Edwards bowline - didn't seem any easier to tie/undo than fig of 8 but I didn't have any falls on it

Using a single bowline with stopper - fine, easy to undo, but I noticed on one move when I leaned in close to the wall for some reason next to a bolt the end of the knot ie on the live rope got slightly caught in the krab ie it went partly through it - its not something I've ever noticed before using a fig of 8.
OP mmmhumous 13 Feb 2011
Thanks for all the replies. Tried oput a bowline at the wall today. (yosemite finish with a double stopper...... nothing like belt and braces). I was very happy with it, and taught my regular climbing partner how to tie it and sent hime home to practice.

On a few of the questions people asked: on not wanting the stopper on the harness loop, it was just personal preference really and trying to minimise the chance of me clipping in with my harness loop when on lead.

The photos on the Edwards bowline article are in the correct order, just could do with an extra photo between step 1 and 2. (having not tried the sans-lapin method, it was a bit confusing).
 EddInaBox 13 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

> On a few of the questions people asked: on not wanting the stopper on the harness loop, it was just personal preference really and trying to minimise the chance of me clipping in with my harness loop when on lead.

Flippin' 'eck, how big do you tie your harness loop if there's even the tiniest chance of doing that!
OP mmmhumous 14 Feb 2011
In reply to EddInaBox:

Probably considerably bigger than most people actually do. Iit’s just one less thing to think about while leading. ( I’d just noticed to get a stopper knot in, I needed a larger loop than I would normally use with a figure eight).

And given the main application I want to use bowline in is when I’ll be doing lots of falling i.e. when I’m climbing at/above my limit, the less distractions and “what if” thoughts can I have the better…. now plenty of falling off tonight at the wall, so that I know that bowlines work, rather than know they SHOULD work.
 Justin T 14 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

I like the double-loop bowline - just do two loops instead of one if you do the rabbity version:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bowline

With Yosemite finish to secure.

This is the only tie-in knot I've used for several years.
 summo 14 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous: I learnt the bowline first and this was taught by someone who was an instructor and also a friend, but they were old school. Climbing in walking boots upto VS etc, bags on mountain routes linking crags around a few hills and nothing I got shown was geared for the indoor climbing numpty who might get it wrong, I had a vested interest in tying in properly and made sure I learnt it!

Since then I have always used bowlines indoors and out. At any indoor wall I have ever been I have never had a tap on the shoulder suggesting I should use a bowline. If my climbing partner leaves half an 8 in the rope, I will use an Fig8, but a clean rope and bowline it is.

There is no reason why any adult (16+) can't be shown a bowline from the off, they just need to understand knots (yes not all knots are knots) and how they all work.

I am a little against newish climbers doing variations of common knots, because it could be harder for friends to spot a potential error in tying it. As an experienced climber a casual glance at the novices harness without actually openly doubting them, does no harm, but keeps everyone safe.
 beardy mike 14 Feb 2011
In reply to chucky110: more to the point, if any tiein knot is not tied correctly, when you lean back on them they are likely to fail. I believe this rather famous and adept climber experienced such a fall:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8921780861600933576#
OP mmmhumous 14 Feb 2011
In reply to quadmyre:

Any reason for the double over the single?
OP mmmhumous 14 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

I've no idea how robust this data is, but a lot of the strength values obtained are far lower than I'd heard: http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/50/knotrope.html
 beardy mike 14 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous: As a complete aside the waterknot/ringbend/competition knot is worth a look too. I've been using this recently and its a cracker... not quite as easy to undo as the bowline, but much easier than the 8, and it's based around the overhand which any fool can tie. It doesn't require a stopper like the bowline, but it IS compact and lies flat like the bowline which is nice for leading. I.E. its got most of the advantages of the bowline but also the robustness of the eight. The thing I dislike about the eight is it's bulk, the way it tries to roll if you cross load the tie in loop, and the fact that it hangs below your harness rather than forming a nice loop at belt level that's easy to grab... you tie it like this: http://www.abc-of-rockclimbing.com/climbing-knots/water-knot.asp

and one of the ends is the rope that goes off to your belayer. It should form a round ring of rope rather than a teardrop shape...
 Justin T 15 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

> Any reason for the double over the single?

Supposedly stronger (though I don't have pull test results to back that statement!) than single and more secure (stays a bit snugger and harder to invert it into a slipknot). Doesn't really add any difficulty or time to tying.
 Alun 15 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:
> Any reason for the double over the single?

The doubled up rope creates a less-sharp bend, and less single-point compression, supposedly, though frankly I only do it because it looks a bit chunkier.

I used to use a double bowline all the time, now I've gone back to a figure-8, for no logical or rational reason.
 M. Edwards 15 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

It's raining here today on the Costa Blanca, so here goes for what its worth...

You may not be surprised but I use the Edwards bowline. Why?

1. I want my rescuer to be able to untie me off the end of my rope should I be unconscious after a fall )with insufficient rope to lower me to the ground). For this scenario I suggest you look at MIA training, its sometimes covered and I can tell you its a bugger to untie a loaded figure of eight, and so much more simple with a bowline (any bowline variation). With one heavy lad I was close to cutting the rope, the figure of eight was that tight (Note: with his weight lifted off the rope).

2. Aesthetically, the Edwards bowline is pleasing on the eye than the regular bowline and tie-off.

3. I have taught the Edwards Bowline to many beginners over the years, and with a little practice anybody can pick it up, guaranteed. If you want to learn? I will show you.

4. Its also pretty much agreed with those of us who tie the Edwards Bowline that this knot is very close, if not the holy grail of tying in knots.

5. The Edwards bowline holds together very well, not unlike the figure of eight knot. Therefore, eliminates any chances of loosening whilst climbing. (Note: stopper knots on regular bowlines are designed for this, and a bowline is not recommended solely on its own)

Its still raining and I could go on...but I'll stop there.
Cheers,
Mark
OP mmmhumous 15 Feb 2011
In reply to quadmyre:

Had a play with it last night. Just as easy to tie, and not really any harder to check at the wall than the single:

On whether it's 'stronger' the bastion of 100% accurate and unbiased data (wikipedia), says that the single is marginally stronger than the double 77% for single, 70-75% for double (data looks to be from different sources, so not sure if it's comparableseparate sources).

By way of comparison, the source quoting 77% for the single bowline quotes 80% for Figure eight.

 Justin T 15 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

It's a weird thing, knot preference, isn't it? I'm sure it says far more about personal aesthetic values than any form of logic

As an aside it's surprising how emotive a topic it can be. I remember when I first started using it (having learned how to tie it from pictures on t'interweb) I was terrified, took lots of good sport falls to convince myself I wasn't going to die. I'm sure it's that factor, more than the perceived difficulty of learning a new knot, that puts most people off changing.

Also interesting is the fact that the only people who are "scared" of bowlines are those who have always used fig-8s. Those who have used both knots almost always prefer the bowline (other than the weird few who prefer bowline for sport and fig-8 for trad with the perverse logic that they don't really trust a bowline but will put up with it for the benefits when they're taking lots of repeated falls!). Those who start off with the bowline generally have no reason to try the fig-8 as there is no benefit to do so.
In reply to quadmyre: I use a bowline for sport and F8 for trad. It's mostly habit. When I started climbing it was the easiest knot for tying on directly round the waist. When harnesses came out the F8 was recommended so that's what we used. When I started sport climbing I very soon realised that a F8 could be very difficult to untie after loading so started to0 use a bowline.

Having said all that I recently experienced a bowline tending to uncoil itself with a new shiny and very flexible rope. It would not have come undone with the stoppers but in over 40 years of climbing it was the first time I had seen this so I do tend to keep an eye on a bowline where as with an F8 I tie it and forget it.

Al
OP mmmhumous 15 Feb 2011
In reply to quadmyre:
> (In reply to mmmhumous)
>
> It's a weird thing, knot preference, isn't it? I'm sure it says far more about personal aesthetic values than any form of logic

Definitely. There's nothing in it in terms of how hard they are to tie.

That said, I can completley see the logic of starting off with a F8 knot when learning - It's easy to check both by your partner, and by the new climbers learning to tie it (and rather importantly, it's easy to check at a glane at each stage of tying the knot).

Once you've been climgin a while and committed F8s, stopper knots, fisherman's, overhands and (my favourite) clove hitches to memory, learning a bowline isn't that dificult to learn.

I supoose the difference the perception of the F8 and mowlines relative safeties. It only took me a couple of climbs and falls to completely trust (a correctly tied) figure eight. They look solid, they feel solid, and they are solid. (annoyingly so afeter a decent fall).

With the (correctly tied and finished/stoppered) bowlines, I know that they are safe at a conscious , but don't have the confidence at the subconcious level that they are yet (falling practice should do the trick me thinks. Perhaps its their vagye resemblance to slip-knots, and the fact then the move which puts me off a bit.

Like Al, I'll hopefully be using a mixture: a suitable bowline indoors (and on sport) with my regular climbing partner, and F8 on trad and with less regular partners.

Cheers for all the advice everyone.



 Dnmn 15 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous: So do you really think that posting a question on UKC about something so crucial is a good idea, given that you have absolutely no idea who these people are, what they know, or how many people they have killed?

I suggest you join a club or a do a course!

Good luck!
OP mmmhumous 15 Feb 2011
In reply to duncanmartin:

You’re absolutely right....

In future when replying to this thread could people please include:
Three forms of identification.
Your chosen Mastermind specialist subject
Details of any history of murder, manslaughter, or an inability to apply common sense when evaluating the validity of advice offered on an internet forum.
 muppetfilter 15 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous: Hi, I knew both climber and belayer involved in a tragic accident in December last year involving a bowline.

The simple fact is that accidents can happen in what can appear to be the safest of environments and the lesson to learn from such a high price is to develop a strong and clear routine of checking your knot, belay device and harness.


Please dont make light of this subject ,It could well save your life

Mike
Caligula 15 Feb 2011
In reply to M. Edwards:
Hi,
Does anybody know where can i find a partner to climb in Costa Blanca?
If anybody know please write me at :officealpinstyle@gmail.com
facebook:alpinstyle

Thanks
Cristian
 Dnmn 18 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous: Common sense- hmmm I really don't think that's very sensible. The notion that common sense will be enough is ridiculous really, when there are so many misconceptions about the simple technical/engineering/scientific aspects of mechanics.

Explain vector forces with common sense. Bet you can't.
Explain the fact that acceleration is independant of mass using common sense. I bet you can't.
Explain why the realistic maximum impact force on any top runner is most likely to not exceed 8KN-9KN... Well, you might be able to... but the public understanding of physics is probably one of the weakest of all the subjects.

I hope you've written a will.

 Dnmn 18 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous: For authoritative information and advice, you could also buy a book- Libby Peter's is probably the best for most people's needs. At least with print material the information has been through an editing process unlike a lot of the posts that appear here, ... ... oh no... I've just realised... including this one... [Poofff- DISAPPEARS IN A CLOUD OF LOGIC].
OP mmmhumous 18 Feb 2011
In reply to duncanmartin:
> At least with print material the information has been through an editing process unlike a lot of the posts that appear here, ... ... oh no... I've just realised... including this one... [Poofff- DISAPPEARS IN A CLOUD OF LOGIC].

First sensible thing you've said


OP mmmhumous 18 Feb 2011
In reply to duncanmartin:
> Explain vector forces with common sense. Bet you can't.
> Explain the fact that acceleration is independant of mass using common sense. I bet you can't.
> Explain why the realistic maximum impact force on any top runner is most likely to not exceed 8KN-9KN... Well, you might be able to... but the public understanding of physics is probably one of the weakest of all the subjects.

I can't quite figure out if you're asking for help with your physics homework, or have a gambling addiction. Either way, you’re more than slightly off topic, but may find the following useful:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/addiction/Pages/Gamblingaddiction.aspx
OP mmmhumous 18 Feb 2011
In reply to muppetfilter:

> The simple fact is that accidents can happen in what can appear to be the safest of environments and the lesson to learn from such a high price is to develop a strong and clear routine of checking your knot, belay device and harness.

Sound advice, and not followed enough by many! Working in a highly regulated environment, where second, third, and sometimes forth person checking is the norm. It’s an eye-opener just how many errors still go un-noticed. Root cause analysis of accidents, incidents, deviations and near misses also makes you appreciate just how often ‘human error’ can have disastrous consequences.

> Please dont make light of this subject ,It could well save your life

I'm not making light of the importance of tying in correctly. Simply the ridiculousness of duncanmartin's flippant post.
 Dnmn 19 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous: Flippant? I wasn't being flippant, it was actually serious and straight to the point. Honestly, join a club, do a course, read a book- each of those have some form of 'quality control' unlike posters to forums, don't you understand that? Don't you understand that it's really not very sensible to follow advice from people that you don't know, have probably never met, and have no responsibility for the implications of their 'advice'?

The point I was making in the previous post which seems to have been missed, is that common sense is a highly inadequate method of judging the value of advice because physics doesn't operate by common sense rules- it is often counter intuitive (from my 20 or so years of experience of teaching it)

Yes, mmhumous, common sense will get you so far. However, in terms of checking the veracity of a statement you can either check the logic (Where your 'common sense' might be of some use), of you can question the truth of the propositions (Which would probably require empirical knowledge of some kind). Common sense is, unfortunately, inadequate for this.

I also note that you haven't actually responded to any of the points I have made... hmmm... I wonder why?

Good luck with your climbing.

D
 Dnmn 19 Feb 2011
In reply to duncanmartin: Oh, and by the way mmhumous, I've just had a look above at a couple of posts...

QED!

Which wall do you climb at?


> On a few of the questions people asked: on not wanting the stopper on the harness loop, it was just personal preference really and trying to minimise the chance of me clipping in with my harness loop when on lead.

Flippin' 'eck, how big do you tie your harness loop if there's even the tiniest chance of doing that!
- by - mmmhumous ? on - 14 Feb 2011
In reply to EddInaBox:

"Probably considerably bigger than most people actually do. Iit’s just one less thing to think about while leading. ( I’d just noticed to get a stopper knot in, I needed a larger loop than I would normally use with a figure eight).

And given the main application I want to use bowline in is when I’ll be doing lots of falling i.e. when I’m climbing at/above my limit, the less distractions and “what if” thoughts can I have the better…. now plenty of falling off tonight at the wall, so that I know that bowlines work, rather than know they SHOULD work."
 timjones 19 Feb 2011
In reply to duncanmartin:
> (In reply to mmmhumous) Flippant? I wasn't being flippant, it was actually serious and straight to the point. Honestly, join a club, do a course, read a book- each of those have some form of 'quality control' unlike posters to forums, don't you understand that? Don't you understand that it's really not very sensible to follow advice from people that you don't know, have probably never met, and have no responsibility for the implications of their 'advice'?
>
> The point I was making in the previous post which seems to have been missed, is that common sense is a highly inadequate method of judging the value of advice because physics doesn't operate by common sense rules- it is often counter intuitive (from my 20 or so years of experience of teaching it)

Physics is entirely a matter of common sense and basic observation of events. Unfortunately it's all too often porrly taught in our schools!
 Dnmn 19 Feb 2011
In reply to timjones: indeed!
 jimtitt 19 Feb 2011
In reply to duncanmartin:
Glad you´re there to help, I´ve always had to use common sense to explain gravity the same as Newton (lucky he picked the Moon not Mercury to prove his theory though). I guess you´ll be able to tell me whether gravity is caused by spacetime curvature, gravitons, buckles in strings or whatever bit of quantum mechanics is trendy this month?
Or do we just keep on with common sense until the physicists provide another/a correct solution?
 goldmember 19 Feb 2011
In reply to jimtitt: 500 years ago it was common sense than the earth was flat. 300 years ago it was common sense that the sun rotated around the earth...
Is common sense always correct? Common sense in this case could get someone killed.

The libby peters book which Duncan suggests, is not common sense, it is total sense, which has been reviewed by experts, unlike this forum.
 EddInaBox 19 Feb 2011
In reply to goldmember:
> 500 years ago it was common sense than the earth was flat.

No it wasn't, the curvature of the earth was just as observable then as it is today, it may not have been common sense that the earth was spherical rather than domed, but unless you have evidence to the contrary it has never been shown that anybody ever believed it was flat.
 knudeNoggin 21 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:

> The standard bowline ... looks simple enough to tie and check if it's tied correctly, but how does it compare to the figure eight in terms of strength?

It should be the unanimous opinion that a single bowline devoid of anything to secure it --further tucking, or a "back-up"/"safety" knot-- is unsafe for tying in. It is not a question of strength but of its vulnerability to loosen, in firm, slick cordage such as kernmantle ropes of rockclimbing, caving, SAR, & canyon(eer)ing. Again, a single bowline needs some security measure taken.
(Regarding strength, a similar issue was raised in a sailing forum re the bowline (unsecured) vs. eye splice, and a couple respondents remarked that after some hurricane had come through and wrecked both boats and docks, that no dock line had failed at the bowline (a few, from chafe or cutting elsewhere).)

Here is an Australian PDF on bowlines, showing some uncommon ones among the more familiar.

www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/02_Bowlines.pdf

The author seems to like the "Yosemite" finish, and attaches it to about everything. I think the better choices are #22-3, 30-1, 32-3. Note that the latter two knots' extra tail tuck can be applied to a two-turn ("double") bowline, for added snugness, and if anything some more material to absorb shock.

NB: If need be, both #6/7 (Yosemite) & #8/9 (similar, but more easily formed, esp. w/firm rope) can be tied **in the bight** (i.e., middle of rope, no ends).

The last-shown bowline variant ("Mirrored Bowline") is pictured too tightly drawn up; it should be more loosely dressed esp. on the mainline end, but it won't loosen further. It's just a larkshead base knot with the tail doing a bowline collaring on both ends of it. Same tucking can be applied to the clove hitch (making a water bowline extension).

*kN*
 Dnmn 23 Feb 2011
In reply to EddInaBox: Off topic- please re-post on Pedants Forum!
 EddInaBox 23 Feb 2011
In reply to duncanmartin:
> Off topic- please re-post on Pedants Forum!

Oh for goodness sake, that should be Pedants' Forum!
 Dnmn 23 Feb 2011
In reply to EddInaBox: hahahahahaha- nice one! You spotted it!!

I wondered if anyone would bite!!

 Andy Long 23 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:
The reason why the Fo8 is taught to beginners is because it's easy for the instructor to check and because it's become established as "the" beginner's knot for historical reasons too complicated to go into here. I would argue that in its thread-back form it's not particularly easy to learn.
The bowline is really a family of knots, some of which approach perfection as a tie-in knot.
I know that this business about how much a knot weakens the rope is a complete irrelevance but it seems to matter to some people. Now this is pure supposition and I'd like to see some tests done, but I notice that most of the best bowlines involve passing the free end through the trapping-loop (aka "the bunny-hole") an extra time, making three strands through it. This will have the effect of increasing the minimum radius of the loop under load, reducing the stress-gradient and, I suspect, lessening the weakening effect of the knot. Just an idea.
 colina 23 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous: cant see how a bowline can slip if TIED CORRECTLY.Great knot to know and has a variety of uses climbing or otherwise (eg car towing) but certainly harder to learn than a fo8 ...whats wrong with a fo8 anyway ? its been used for years and it keeps things simple
OP mmmhumous 23 Feb 2011
In reply to colina:
> cant see how a bowline can slip if TIED CORRECTLY.

-Try it for youreself: tie a standard bowline with a short tail and then 'push' the live rope, and what would be the harness loop towarda each other a few times (i.e. the opposite of weighting it - hope that makes sense).

>...whats wrong with a fo8 anyway ? its been used for years and it keeps things simple

It's dificult to untie once weighted (especially after a series of falls).
 jimtitt 23 Feb 2011
In reply to mmmhumous:


I bet there is a good reason why the German and Austrian Alpine Clubs teach the 8 to beginners and the one-and -a-half bowline (threaded bowline on a bight)to the rest and all the climbers I know use it as well.

Jim

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