This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Since rope = weight, I am looking for a new mountaineering/ climbing rope for this season. which is better; the thicker beal joker, or skinnier and lighter Mammut Serenity?
Cheers
Will.
Cheers
Will.
In reply to Will Max Walker: I wouldn't get too hung up on the weight alone as the Beal is only 1g heavier per meter. The Beal Joker gives a far lower impact force that can be very important if your on marginal gear or using it in the winter.
In addition to this the Beal complies with the single, half and double standard and so is more versatile.
Taking all this into account I know which one I would go for.
In addition to this the Beal complies with the single, half and double standard and so is more versatile.
Taking all this into account I know which one I would go for.
In reply to Pete Potter: Cheers Pete. The impact force point is one that I hadn't considered. helpful.
In reply to Pete Potter: The serenity also compies to single double and twin standards. As for lower impact, lower impact means more stretch and generally a looser mantle weave to cope with the extra elongation, but reduces wear resistance... have had a serenity for years now and it has stood up to some proper abuse with months worth of climbing... having had beal ropes fall by the wayside in a very much shorter period of time I know which I would plump for...
In reply to Will Max Walker:
I just bought my third Joker. I like them for lots of reasons, cost, feel, weight and how they work through my belay plates and on raps. May not last as long as some (haven't used other thin singles to comment) but my Jokers have lasted long enough for my puposes or I would have looked for something new. That said Mammut makes a good rope. Best thing to do is at the very least play with both a bit in the shop. Better yet climb on both and see what you think.
I just bought my third Joker. I like them for lots of reasons, cost, feel, weight and how they work through my belay plates and on raps. May not last as long as some (haven't used other thin singles to comment) but my Jokers have lasted long enough for my puposes or I would have looked for something new. That said Mammut makes a good rope. Best thing to do is at the very least play with both a bit in the shop. Better yet climb on both and see what you think.
In reply to mike kann: Hi Mike. I must admit I hadn't noticed that the Serenity complied with those standards as well, Mammut do not make it easy to get that information from their website.
With regards to the low impact force you are correct about the extra elongation but I would rather an extra meter of stretch and my runner holding! There are many more ways of getting elongation than just having a looser mantle and these two companies use a very diferent manufacturing process and this is how Beal manage to get low impact forces across their range.
One thing that should be considered with both of these ropes is they are not designed for a heavy use situation with exesive wear, as with anything that is stripped down in weight. So I would suggest that you think long and hard about what style of climbing you are going to use this rope for and if it is general all round cragging with a bit of sport climbing and some wall work then maybe think about something like a Beal Booster.
With regards to the low impact force you are correct about the extra elongation but I would rather an extra meter of stretch and my runner holding! There are many more ways of getting elongation than just having a looser mantle and these two companies use a very diferent manufacturing process and this is how Beal manage to get low impact forces across their range.
One thing that should be considered with both of these ropes is they are not designed for a heavy use situation with exesive wear, as with anything that is stripped down in weight. So I would suggest that you think long and hard about what style of climbing you are going to use this rope for and if it is general all round cragging with a bit of sport climbing and some wall work then maybe think about something like a Beal Booster.
In reply to Pete Potter:
I guess it depends where you climb how you view stretch. An extra meter of stretch on a lot of shorter outcrop routes is the difference between a close shave and a trip to A&E. Also, I can't think of any climbing I personally do where I'd be using a single rope and iffy runners. The main reason I'd consider a light rope is for redpoint attempts where you might actually feel the benefit of the lower weight and drag, here the gear is good and belaying tends to be nicely dynamic anyway. I don't even see they have any real advantages in the mountains where twins are more redundant, can be split for carrying in and allow for more efficient retreat.
I'm not having a go at you if that comes across as a rant, I just don't quite see the appeal of very expensive thin full ropes outside of the hard-sport arena. Of course it may simply be that I'm a skinflint and/or yet to be converted
jk
> With regards to the low impact force you are correct about the extra elongation but I would rather an extra meter of stretch and my runner holding!
I guess it depends where you climb how you view stretch. An extra meter of stretch on a lot of shorter outcrop routes is the difference between a close shave and a trip to A&E. Also, I can't think of any climbing I personally do where I'd be using a single rope and iffy runners. The main reason I'd consider a light rope is for redpoint attempts where you might actually feel the benefit of the lower weight and drag, here the gear is good and belaying tends to be nicely dynamic anyway. I don't even see they have any real advantages in the mountains where twins are more redundant, can be split for carrying in and allow for more efficient retreat.
I'm not having a go at you if that comes across as a rant, I just don't quite see the appeal of very expensive thin full ropes outside of the hard-sport arena. Of course it may simply be that I'm a skinflint and/or yet to be converted
jk
In reply to Pete Potter: All I can say is having had Beal Icelines, which I used in very similar conditions to both my Mammut Phoenix and serenity, the Icelines were at the end of their life in a year, where as the Serenity has had a hard hard life, being used for everything from trad cragging, to scottish winter, to climbing on the super rough granite in Yosemite and the meadows (everyday for 3 weeks), the alps on alpine routes and it is still going. My icelines fluffed up in a matter of weeks, one sheath abraided in a single short toproping session (I know - don't hate me ) and the other almost cut through during an epic in the Gorms. To look at the Mammut you'd think it was well used but not have any doubts about it's strength - I can't say I felt the same about the beals. Yes they are specialised but they really have their uses, especially when you are doing big walk ins... not a sport rope unless you're going for the super hard flash, but then I didn't need to tell you that right? Used as a double it's also great...
In reply to mike kann: Just to add some balnce here, I'd like to mention that comparing durabilities of a Beal Iceline with a Serenity is not an entirely fair comparison as you are comparing a very thin winter half rope with a very fat one, if you consider the serenity as a half at all.
Having used a pile of ropes from different brands over the years, I think the main differences in durability come from type of use, thickness of line and up to a point, luck (if you have an unlucky incident). As an example of use based durability, my Joker (I'm quite cowardly) lasted three years whereas Gaz Vincent (one of the ratho instructors) has managed to absolutely completely (core bursting out of sheath) destroy a serentiy to the point of retiral in just 7 weeks of indoor climbing. I don't think that shows Jokers are more durable just that brand isn't the biggest factor in lifespan. His opinion of mammut will be a bit differnt to yours now I think anyway....
Having used a pile of ropes from different brands over the years, I think the main differences in durability come from type of use, thickness of line and up to a point, luck (if you have an unlucky incident). As an example of use based durability, my Joker (I'm quite cowardly) lasted three years whereas Gaz Vincent (one of the ratho instructors) has managed to absolutely completely (core bursting out of sheath) destroy a serentiy to the point of retiral in just 7 weeks of indoor climbing. I don't think that shows Jokers are more durable just that brand isn't the biggest factor in lifespan. His opinion of mammut will be a bit differnt to yours now I think anyway....
In reply to All: Thanks for the debate guys. The main reason that I am looking for a super skinny rope is to save weight on long mountain days. I have other ropes that i can thrash indoors and on valley crags. My experience so far is that mammut ropes have lasted me a lot longer than beal ones, but it's always good to get some feedback.
Cheers All.
Will.
Cheers All.
Will.
In reply to mike kann:
Really? I retired my iceline from being my main ice climbing rope last year when it was 7 or 8 years old. Possibly the best half rope I've ever had. I liked my Mammut Revelation, but after about 3 years it went from looking great to knackered very quickly - but at least you know when it's time to dump it!
> All I can say is having had Beal Icelines, which I used in very similar conditions to both my Mammut Phoenix and serenity, the Icelines were at the end of their life in a year,
Really? I retired my iceline from being my main ice climbing rope last year when it was 7 or 8 years old. Possibly the best half rope I've ever had. I liked my Mammut Revelation, but after about 3 years it went from looking great to knackered very quickly - but at least you know when it's time to dump it!
In reply to Will Max Walker: I've been using a Beal Joker for nearly a year and have been pretty impressed. It's not going to be much help for you, but we are planning to do a comparison test of a number of different triple rated ropes (single, twin, double) here for UKC - I'm hoping to start some testing soon but it is likely to be summer before I have anything useful to say.
In reply to jkarran:
Very multipurpose. Used my Joker on a big icefall in Norway, then taken it crag climbing here in Finland where I can tie on to both ends to lead trad lines on double ropes, but tie on to just one end for doing sports routes or cracks at the same crag. It made a great "holiday" rope - drove to the UK this summer so I used it for some easy sport and trad in Sweden on the way. Once in the UK I used it sport climbing at Llanmynech and Portland, and then with an old 9mm for trad at Nesscliffe. Doesn't take up too much space in a very well packed car!
Sure - its not the right rope for projecting or top roping, but actually a lot climber rarely fall off, so they are good for 'mileage' when you are climbing within your grade.
> I'm not having a go at you if that comes across as a rant, I just don't quite see the appeal of very expensive thin full ropes outside of the hard-sport arena.
Very multipurpose. Used my Joker on a big icefall in Norway, then taken it crag climbing here in Finland where I can tie on to both ends to lead trad lines on double ropes, but tie on to just one end for doing sports routes or cracks at the same crag. It made a great "holiday" rope - drove to the UK this summer so I used it for some easy sport and trad in Sweden on the way. Once in the UK I used it sport climbing at Llanmynech and Portland, and then with an old 9mm for trad at Nesscliffe. Doesn't take up too much space in a very well packed car!
Sure - its not the right rope for projecting or top roping, but actually a lot climber rarely fall off, so they are good for 'mileage' when you are climbing within your grade.
In reply to TobyA: should be interesting for the future. I'll look forward to seeing how you get on.
cheers
Will.
cheers
Will.
In reply to TobyA:
I'm now on my second Joker so if you want some proper feedback on the pros and cons email me!
Cheers Ron
I'm now on my second Joker so if you want some proper feedback on the pros and cons email me!
Cheers Ron
In reply to Ron Walker: Ron - I'd be very interested, but don't wait for me to write a review - I think it would be really useful if you just put down your experiences of the Joker on this thread.
I think these triple rated ropes could actually become a much bigger part of the market as they are so versatile, but I also understand they have limitations as well - but would be very interested to hear your experiences. I presume you are using them for guiding?
I think these triple rated ropes could actually become a much bigger part of the market as they are so versatile, but I also understand they have limitations as well - but would be very interested to hear your experiences. I presume you are using them for guiding?
In reply to TobyA: Sorry Toby missed this - yeah really... I was absolutely gutted as I'd spent a packet on them. By comparison the phoenix I bought to replace it lasted years... which IS a direct comparison... I'm aware comparing a Serenity and an ice line is not on - it just rather put me off the brand as a whole, especially when I compained and was told it was down to usage which is just guff... I've had 7.5 twins which lasted better.
As for what you said about versatility I couldn't agree more - I love this sort of diameter rope. Yes it's not right for working sport climbs but that is obvious to people isn't it? Maybe not if someone above is quoting a few months use at Ratho.... seems a most bizzare way to use a 150 quid lightweight rope...
As for what you said about versatility I couldn't agree more - I love this sort of diameter rope. Yes it's not right for working sport climbs but that is obvious to people isn't it? Maybe not if someone above is quoting a few months use at Ratho.... seems a most bizzare way to use a 150 quid lightweight rope...
In reply to mike kann: Ropes do seem to vary a lot which is really annoying. My first Beal Edlinger was superb value - 3 summers of hard usage, sport trad top-roping, jugging on it for crag cleaning etc. etc. Seemed superb value for money. Replaced it with another that started wearing fast - average value at best for that one. Same model though. Just bad luck? Or do the makers change them somehow?
In reply to mike kann and TobyA and others: I'm testing single ropes extensively at the moment for CragX (and now Climber mag) and it is becoming clear that wear resistance is surprisingly specific.
As an example, the rope that has so far stood up to leading the best (six months training use with the British lead champion and didn'y even need cutting) has also been the worst at surviving a top-rope at The Foundry. Clearly an excellent sport climbing rope but not so great for beginner top-roping?
As an example, the rope that has so far stood up to leading the best (six months training use with the British lead champion and didn'y even need cutting) has also been the worst at surviving a top-rope at The Foundry. Clearly an excellent sport climbing rope but not so great for beginner top-roping?
In reply to IainWhitehouse: Perhaps a beginner at the wall isn't as good at looking after their rope as an experienced sport climber? Or have you made rope care a constant in your testing?
In reply to Flashy:
Obviously not but what on earth does that have to do with our testing? All the ropes have undergone (or are undergoing) the same regime. the point was that different ropes appear to be good at different things. The one I was talking about was excellent for leading but comparitively poor for top-roping.
> (In reply to IainWhitehouse) Perhaps a beginner at the wall isn't as good at looking after their rope as an experienced sport climber?
Obviously not but what on earth does that have to do with our testing? All the ropes have undergone (or are undergoing) the same regime. the point was that different ropes appear to be good at different things. The one I was talking about was excellent for leading but comparitively poor for top-roping.
In reply to IainWhitehouse:
Sorry, I got the impression they were being used by different people, and I would have thought a rope being used carefully, and cleaned, would last longer that is abused in storage bewteen uses and is full of grit and dirt. That surely makes some difference to how quickly they wear out?
> (In reply to Flashy)
> [...]
>
> Obviously not but what on earth does that have to do with our testing? All the ropes have undergone (or are undergoing) the same regime.
> [...]
>
> Obviously not but what on earth does that have to do with our testing? All the ropes have undergone (or are undergoing) the same regime.
Sorry, I got the impression they were being used by different people, and I would have thought a rope being used carefully, and cleaned, would last longer that is abused in storage bewteen uses and is full of grit and dirt. That surely makes some difference to how quickly they wear out?
In reply to Flashy:
I suspect it doesn't make much difference at all particularly in the time scale Iain is talking about.
I don't think I have ever washed a rope. Does this make me weird?
> (In reply to IainWhitehouse)
> [...]
> [...]
> and I would have thought a rope being used carefully, and cleaned, would last longer that is abused in storage bewteen uses and is full of grit and dirt.
I suspect it doesn't make much difference at all particularly in the time scale Iain is talking about.
I don't think I have ever washed a rope. Does this make me weird?
In reply to TobyA:
No, just that you don't climb on sea cliffs
> I don't think I have ever washed a rope. Does this make me weird?
No, just that you don't climb on sea cliffs
In reply to IainWhitehouse:
Whoops, almost as bad a my spelling it seems.
> (In reply to Flashy)
>comparitively poor for top-roping.Whoops, almost as bad a my spelling it seems.
In reply to TobyA:
Sadly not. It might make you daft, but no more daft than almost all of the rest of us.
> (In reply to Flashy)
> I don't think I have ever washed a rope. Does this make me weird?
> I don't think I have ever washed a rope. Does this make me weird?
Sadly not. It might make you daft, but no more daft than almost all of the rest of us.
In reply to IainWhitehouse: I like to think that dragging my ropes around in the soggy snow whilst doing some end of the season ice climbing is washing enough!
In reply to TobyA:
I've read the reviews on UKC of various skinny single ropes and of those that are also rated as singles and for use as one of a pair. I think I get the idea about impact force and the like. What I'm unsure about is what to make of the fact that some ropes are not rated for use as one of a pair because of their (relatively) high impact force. Does this mean they shouldn't be used as a single rope for trad climbing as well? My thought being that quite commonly when one falls off with double ropes one rope tales all the force of the fall, as does the single rope of course if climbing with just one rope. So, if the rope is no good as a part of a pair, shouldn't that rule it out as a single trad rope as well?
Any thoughts?
I've read the reviews on UKC of various skinny single ropes and of those that are also rated as singles and for use as one of a pair. I think I get the idea about impact force and the like. What I'm unsure about is what to make of the fact that some ropes are not rated for use as one of a pair because of their (relatively) high impact force. Does this mean they shouldn't be used as a single rope for trad climbing as well? My thought being that quite commonly when one falls off with double ropes one rope tales all the force of the fall, as does the single rope of course if climbing with just one rope. So, if the rope is no good as a part of a pair, shouldn't that rule it out as a single trad rope as well?
Any thoughts?
In reply to Will Max Walker: what do you mean rope = weight therefore you want a new rope?
In reply to ksjs: I meant that it just seems like an obvious way to save weight for mountaineering. As it happens, i need a new rope anyway.
Apologies for wording it badly.
Will.
Apologies for wording it badly.
Will.
In reply to TobyA:
Toby,
I've sent you a detailed email re Beal Joker, Ice Lines and the Millet Absolute Pro that we've been using over the past few years.
Fi got a REALLY good deal with the lime green Millet rope last summer!!!!!
I'd be interested in a direct comparison between the Beal Joker which I've used extensively and the Millet Absolute Pro which was being supplied to the Chamonix Guides during the summer....
Cheers Ron
Toby,
I've sent you a detailed email re Beal Joker, Ice Lines and the Millet Absolute Pro that we've been using over the past few years.
Fi got a REALLY good deal with the lime green Millet rope last summer!!!!!
I'd be interested in a direct comparison between the Beal Joker which I've used extensively and the Millet Absolute Pro which was being supplied to the Chamonix Guides during the summer....
Cheers Ron
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...