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http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/news-2/2011/02/11/warning-regarding-presenc...
Anybody seen this yet? Better ditch those bargain krabs you bought in the far East.
Anybody seen this yet? Better ditch those bargain krabs you bought in the far East.
In reply to ColdWill:
Looks like these will be pretty much impossible to tell apart from the real thing, until you take a big fall...
Looks like these will be pretty much impossible to tell apart from the real thing, until you take a big fall...
In reply to ColdWill:
This is totally out of order. Selling fake dvds or make-up illegally is one thing, but selling things which put peoples lives at risk is another. If whoever is making these wants to keep making gear. Then they should at least have the decency to brand it differently to Petzl so we know what we are getting when we pay money for it. Worse still Petzl could be charged for manslaughter sometime soon if these bafoons keep this up.
This is totally out of order. Selling fake dvds or make-up illegally is one thing, but selling things which put peoples lives at risk is another. If whoever is making these wants to keep making gear. Then they should at least have the decency to brand it differently to Petzl so we know what we are getting when we pay money for it. Worse still Petzl could be charged for manslaughter sometime soon if these bafoons keep this up.
In reply to Quarryboy:
Ha ha!! What a load of tosh.
So I buy some fake Armani jeans, the stitching comes undone - it's Armani's fault?
E
> ( Worse still Petzl could be charged for manslaughter sometime soon if these bafoons keep this up.
Ha ha!! What a load of tosh.
So I buy some fake Armani jeans, the stitching comes undone - it's Armani's fault?
E
In reply to Quarryboy:
Erm...I think the whole idea is that you don't know that it's fake?
E
> (In reply to coldwill)
> Then they should at least have the decency to brand it differently to Petzl so we know what we are getting when we pay money for it.
> Then they should at least have the decency to brand it differently to Petzl so we know what we are getting when we pay money for it.
Erm...I think the whole idea is that you don't know that it's fake?
E
In reply to Quarryboy:
Oh sorry, I buy a Jumar which is made of margarine in China so I think I'll sue Petzl when it fails beacuse the Chinese stamped the word Petzl on the side.
E
Oh sorry, I buy a Jumar which is made of margarine in China so I think I'll sue Petzl when it fails beacuse the Chinese stamped the word Petzl on the side.
E
In reply to Queenie:
Sorry - ranting this morning because the sun is shining and I've no climbing partner.....
E
Sorry - ranting this morning because the sun is shining and I've no climbing partner.....
E
In reply to Enty:
That's a bummer. Spring's on the way...and that makes the climbing feet even more itchy.
That's a bummer. Spring's on the way...and that makes the climbing feet even more itchy.
In reply to Quarryboy:
So is selling fake DVDs or makeup...
And fake makeup could also have health implications.
In reply to Quarryboy:
Nice, but naive (the folk who do this don't care)!
> (In reply to coldwill)
> This is totally out of order.
> This is totally out of order.
So is selling fake DVDs or makeup...
> Selling fake dvds or make-up illegally is one thing, but selling things which put peoples lives at risk is another.
And fake makeup could also have health implications.
In reply to Quarryboy:
> (In reply to Enty)
>> If its protective gear and the costumer suspects its real then yes.
Nice, but naive (the folk who do this don't care)!
In reply to Enty:
Sorry, I've got a batch of GriGris to paint...
> (In reply to Queenie)
>
> Sorry - ranting this morning because the sun is shining and I've no climbing partner.....
>
> E
>
> Sorry - ranting this morning because the sun is shining and I've no climbing partner.....
>
> E
Sorry, I've got a batch of GriGris to paint...
In reply to jon:
Very good!
C
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
> Sorry, I've got a batch of GriGris to paint...
> [...]
>
> Sorry, I've got a batch of GriGris to paint...
Very good!
C
In reply to ColdWill: Hrmm, pretty worrying that. The fact that petzl admit its very hard to tell the difference to is more so. But I suppose as long as you don't all go buying your gri gri 2's from a market stall for £20 you should be ok
In reply to Quarryboy:
Actually, when you get down to it, selling fake DVDs and cosmetics IS the same 'one thing' really, although it gets a bit more emotive when counterfeiting and trade mark offences affect PPE (and medicines and aircraft brakes, etc). It's just that some individuals (and societies) deem some counterfeiting to be 'acceptable' in that it is perceived to do no harm and in fact is a good thing for the 'hard-done-to' average punter.
Whereas, in reality, it damages the reputation and profitability of legitimate business, affecting employment and development of new products, funds the black market economy and crime (which we all ultimately pay for) places potentially unsafe or at best unmerchantable products on the market about which the aforementioned punter cannot exercise any of his/her consumer rights, should the product be defective or injurious.
Expanding on this case, if there becomes so much fake gear out there purporting to be made by 'brand X', what are you going to do when considering your next purchase of safety-critical kit - buy 'brand X'?
No, you are going to buy someone else's and 'brand X' goes under.
Actually, when you get down to it, selling fake DVDs and cosmetics IS the same 'one thing' really, although it gets a bit more emotive when counterfeiting and trade mark offences affect PPE (and medicines and aircraft brakes, etc). It's just that some individuals (and societies) deem some counterfeiting to be 'acceptable' in that it is perceived to do no harm and in fact is a good thing for the 'hard-done-to' average punter.
Whereas, in reality, it damages the reputation and profitability of legitimate business, affecting employment and development of new products, funds the black market economy and crime (which we all ultimately pay for) places potentially unsafe or at best unmerchantable products on the market about which the aforementioned punter cannot exercise any of his/her consumer rights, should the product be defective or injurious.
Expanding on this case, if there becomes so much fake gear out there purporting to be made by 'brand X', what are you going to do when considering your next purchase of safety-critical kit - buy 'brand X'?
No, you are going to buy someone else's and 'brand X' goes under.
In reply to ColdWill:
Not good for Petzl either way.
Customers are likely to opt for another brand. Unless other brands are also being copied but the other brand dont wish to press the point?
Not good for Petzl either way.
Customers are likely to opt for another brand. Unless other brands are also being copied but the other brand dont wish to press the point?
In reply to Quarryboy:
Ah but could the costumer tell if the Armani was fake?
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> If its protective gear and the costumer suspects its real then yes.
>
> If its protective gear and the costumer suspects its real then yes.
Ah but could the costumer tell if the Armani was fake?
In reply to mikehike: If you buy from a proper reputable shop then you have nothing to worry about. No UK shop is going to get stock from anywhere other than Lyon Equipment and Lyon will have bought direct from Petzl. You can always check the Lyon Website for shops they supply.
I can't see any reason for not buying Petzl, I can only see a reason for not buying from ebay or anywhere that the products history isn't traceable.
I can't see any reason for not buying Petzl, I can only see a reason for not buying from ebay or anywhere that the products history isn't traceable.
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut: That was my first thought.... An ebay flood of dodgy gear, BNWT and everything else
In reply to ColdWill:
Is it not possible that the goods are actually made by Petzl in China already and that the factory they have been dealing with has been producing/selling extra stock without their permission?
Is it not possible that the goods are actually made by Petzl in China already and that the factory they have been dealing with has been producing/selling extra stock without their permission?
In reply to ColdWill:
I'd say petzl have done the best thing, by putting up a warning before the problem appears to have gotten too big. I think most people buy from legitimate dealers anyway, given the choice between saving a tenner or not knowing who made your gear.
I don't think it will harm their image because of the openness. Bit worrying that the counterfeiters have started on climbing gear though, and the fact that all the manufacturers are so open about the format of the serial numbers on their gear, only makes it easier.
I'd say petzl have done the best thing, by putting up a warning before the problem appears to have gotten too big. I think most people buy from legitimate dealers anyway, given the choice between saving a tenner or not knowing who made your gear.
I don't think it will harm their image because of the openness. Bit worrying that the counterfeiters have started on climbing gear though, and the fact that all the manufacturers are so open about the format of the serial numbers on their gear, only makes it easier.
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
A lot of fake medicine etc make it into the legitimate UK market though.
A lot of fake medicine etc make it into the legitimate UK market though.
In reply to mlt:
is is....but using crap materials, if you look at the breaking strains!!
> (In reply to coldwill)
>
> Is it not possible that the goods are actually made by Petzl in China already and that the factory they have been dealing with has been producing/selling extra stock without their permission?
>
> Is it not possible that the goods are actually made by Petzl in China already and that the factory they have been dealing with has been producing/selling extra stock without their permission?
is is....but using crap materials, if you look at the breaking strains!!
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
However I think there could be possible scenario's, A stall at an exhibition or someone running a portable climbing wall trying to make a quick buck. Unlikely but good to have in the back of your mind.
> (In reply to mikehike) If you buy from a proper reputable shop then you have nothing to worry about.
I do.> No UK shop is going to get stock from anywhere other than Lyon Equipment
You would like to think so. I have no evidence to believe otherwise.However I think there could be possible scenario's, A stall at an exhibition or someone running a portable climbing wall trying to make a quick buck. Unlikely but good to have in the back of your mind.
In reply to Ian Milward:
Well you could do that. Or you could just buy from a source you trust, like an authorised distributor,or direct etc.
> (In reply to Quarryboy)
> what are you going to do when considering your next purchase of safety-critical kit - buy 'brand X'?
>
> No, you are going to buy someone else's and 'brand X' goes under.
> what are you going to do when considering your next purchase of safety-critical kit - buy 'brand X'?
>
> No, you are going to buy someone else's and 'brand X' goes under.
Well you could do that. Or you could just buy from a source you trust, like an authorised distributor,or direct etc.
In reply to ColdWill: although we know its probably ebay etc, they haven't mentioned where to look out for these fakes.
In reply to ColdWill:
Maybe UKC should announce this as a news item? If it saves one life it's definitely worth it.
Well done to Petzl for announcing it.
James
Maybe UKC should announce this as a news item? If it saves one life it's definitely worth it.
Well done to Petzl for announcing it.
James
In reply to mrjonathanr:
Indeed that's the way to go here, but you didn't quote me fully. What I preceded your selected text with was '....if there becomes so much fake gear out there...' That's when reputations get damaged and why counterfeiting stuff is always a bad thing for affected businesses and consumers.
I fully expect a company like Petzl to get a handle on the situation (as it looks like they have begun to do by posting the alert) and shut the door on these fakes.
Indeed that's the way to go here, but you didn't quote me fully. What I preceded your selected text with was '....if there becomes so much fake gear out there...' That's when reputations get damaged and why counterfeiting stuff is always a bad thing for affected businesses and consumers.
I fully expect a company like Petzl to get a handle on the situation (as it looks like they have begun to do by posting the alert) and shut the door on these fakes.
In reply to ColdWill:
Also is there any way one can try and stop these products getting on ebay?
James
Also is there any way one can try and stop these products getting on ebay?
James
In reply to James Oswald:
They probably will do when it becomes common knowledge and its no longer News.
> (In reply to coldwill)
> Maybe UKC should announce this as a news item? If it saves one life it's definitely worth it.
> Well done to Petzl for announcing it.
> James
> Maybe UKC should announce this as a news item? If it saves one life it's definitely worth it.
> Well done to Petzl for announcing it.
> James
They probably will do when it becomes common knowledge and its no longer News.
In reply to James Oswald:
Only by someone (probably on behalf of petzl) reporting individual items, and a seller account may get blocked if selling large volumes. However, if they are cosmetically virtually identical, and the items are likely to use stock images anyway, it becomes hard to trace. And reporting sellers for selling items 'too cheap' is probably unlikely to be taken seriously.
Only by someone (probably on behalf of petzl) reporting individual items, and a seller account may get blocked if selling large volumes. However, if they are cosmetically virtually identical, and the items are likely to use stock images anyway, it becomes hard to trace. And reporting sellers for selling items 'too cheap' is probably unlikely to be taken seriously.
In reply to mlt:
Petzl don't get their gear made in China and no it can't tbe the same factory as the strengths are different.
Petzl don't get their gear made in China and no it can't tbe the same factory as the strengths are different.
In reply to KiwiPrincess:
Ah that is true, but i had it on good authority they did send a number of items off to China a year or two back with the intent of cutting manufacturing costs... the first batch were produced all ok no problems with strength, then the ok was given for a major order, that's when the problem started and petzl had thousands of items all failing the strength ratings.... what happend to these i have no idea but the chinese factory had the the petzl stamps and everthing else to produce perfect copies of petzl items (all bare the strength ratings) so it doesn't surprise me that these items have found their way to the market place
> (In reply to matthewtraver)
>
> Petzl don't get their gear made in China and no it can't tbe the same factory as the strengths are different.
>
> Petzl don't get their gear made in China and no it can't tbe the same factory as the strengths are different.
Ah that is true, but i had it on good authority they did send a number of items off to China a year or two back with the intent of cutting manufacturing costs... the first batch were produced all ok no problems with strength, then the ok was given for a major order, that's when the problem started and petzl had thousands of items all failing the strength ratings.... what happend to these i have no idea but the chinese factory had the the petzl stamps and everthing else to produce perfect copies of petzl items (all bare the strength ratings) so it doesn't surprise me that these items have found their way to the market place
In reply to KiwiPrincess:
Phew, in that case, I think you've just made a load of manufacturing quality control personnel world-wide redundant...
> (In reply to matthewtraver)
>
> and no it can't tbe the same factory as the strengths are different.
>
> and no it can't tbe the same factory as the strengths are different.
Phew, in that case, I think you've just made a load of manufacturing quality control personnel world-wide redundant...
In reply to ColdWill:
Im actually quite surprised that the chinese gear held up too 13 kn,
Lets be honest, none of my hexes, nuts or cams is rated above 13 anyway, so its not like imminent death.
Thats said it is scary, that PPE is now copied in such a way. Normally you can spot copied gear but not in this case it seems.
Im actually quite surprised that the chinese gear held up too 13 kn,
Lets be honest, none of my hexes, nuts or cams is rated above 13 anyway, so its not like imminent death.
Thats said it is scary, that PPE is now copied in such a way. Normally you can spot copied gear but not in this case it seems.
In reply to James Oswald:
Faking Petzl (and other) gear has been around a looong time. I remember getting offered a Ukranian shunt at Millstone in the early 90s.
> (In reply to coldwill)
> Maybe UKC should announce this as a news item? If it saves one life it's definitely worth it.
> Well done to Petzl for announcing it.
> James
> Maybe UKC should announce this as a news item? If it saves one life it's definitely worth it.
> Well done to Petzl for announcing it.
> James
Faking Petzl (and other) gear has been around a looong time. I remember getting offered a Ukranian shunt at Millstone in the early 90s.
In reply to Scarab: The thing I have noticed here is that none of the people that so readily advocate buying unmarked Maillons from the market for lower offs have commented. The simple principle would appear to buy gear from a reputable source where it can be effectively traced. Ebay gear may well have been stolen or sat on a window in direct sunlight under a dripping car battery above a radiator ;0)
I have seen some really good stuff comes out of china and also some very dodgy things, my favourite being a unit with welds covered in bathroom sealant and painted to make them look neat.
I have seen some really good stuff comes out of china and also some very dodgy things, my favourite being a unit with welds covered in bathroom sealant and painted to make them look neat.
In reply to James Oswald:
Realistically there's not a hope in hell. I'm not surprised climbing kit is being targeted since a lot of the cost is in QA and marketing.
jk
> Also is there any way one can try and stop these products getting on ebay?
Realistically there's not a hope in hell. I'm not surprised climbing kit is being targeted since a lot of the cost is in QA and marketing.
jk
In reply to muppetfilter:
As you say, what about the nasty maillons? Luckily they don´t normally get loaded that much!
Simple economics forces all companies to outsource to some extent, nobody is making their own aluminium or sewing thread, this is where reliable suppliers and incoming goods quality control comes in.
I buy-in chain, maillons and karabiners from the `other´ China (Taiwan) and it took a lot of searching to find one that consistantly delivered quality gear and I still have to check each item individually as well as random destruction testing to be sure nothing has changed.
I have not yet tested a hardware product from China which achieves an acceptably consistant quality OR the manufacturers claimed strength. Regrettably the same has also occured with products originating in the EU!
Jim
As you say, what about the nasty maillons? Luckily they don´t normally get loaded that much!
Simple economics forces all companies to outsource to some extent, nobody is making their own aluminium or sewing thread, this is where reliable suppliers and incoming goods quality control comes in.
I buy-in chain, maillons and karabiners from the `other´ China (Taiwan) and it took a lot of searching to find one that consistantly delivered quality gear and I still have to check each item individually as well as random destruction testing to be sure nothing has changed.
I have not yet tested a hardware product from China which achieves an acceptably consistant quality OR the manufacturers claimed strength. Regrettably the same has also occured with products originating in the EU!
Jim
In reply to James Oswald:
I bought counterfeit software on eBay. Before I could have a refund eBay made me return the fake item to the seller so it could be sold again !
So no. They are really not interested.
> Also is there any way one can try and stop these products getting on ebay?
I bought counterfeit software on eBay. Before I could have a refund eBay made me return the fake item to the seller so it could be sold again !
So no. They are really not interested.
In reply to ColdWill:
seems like Lyon Equipment website is <ahem> breaking under the strain at the mo. I guess everyone else in the UK is also trying to double check their favourite shops are listed as approved!
Has there been any advice out for what to do if you're not able to trace your kit back to Lyon. Any knowledge about batch numbers that are counterfeit etc?
cheers
Nikki
seems like Lyon Equipment website is <ahem> breaking under the strain at the mo. I guess everyone else in the UK is also trying to double check their favourite shops are listed as approved!
Has there been any advice out for what to do if you're not able to trace your kit back to Lyon. Any knowledge about batch numbers that are counterfeit etc?
cheers
Nikki
In reply to muppetfilter: painted sealant? neat?
In reply to thommi:
A bit like my attempts to get my ancient student car through its MOT - bits of old filing cabinet cut and hammered to fit, stuck on with plastic padding and more plastic padding added and shaped to resemble welds. Add a slobber of underseal to taste. Worked more often than not.
> (In reply to muppetfilter) painted sealant? neat?
A bit like my attempts to get my ancient student car through its MOT - bits of old filing cabinet cut and hammered to fit, stuck on with plastic padding and more plastic padding added and shaped to resemble welds. Add a slobber of underseal to taste. Worked more often than not.
In reply to nniff: nice. a friend of mine into his landrovers told me once that a frame will fail if it has a small rusty hole however if you cut it out it will pass with a bigger clean hole! MOT inspector... "is that araldite?"
In reply to ColdWill:
I used to work for a large manufacturer of automotive brakes & we had a "Chamber of Horrors" cabinet containing examples of fake pads, wheel cylinders, brake fluid and other service parts with our name on them.
A bit off topic but it does illustrate the lack of concern regarding safety that the fakers have
I used to work for a large manufacturer of automotive brakes & we had a "Chamber of Horrors" cabinet containing examples of fake pads, wheel cylinders, brake fluid and other service parts with our name on them.
A bit off topic but it does illustrate the lack of concern regarding safety that the fakers have
In reply to James Oswald: Yes there is. It is to adopt a policy of never buying any gear from e-bay, or from anywhere other than a real shop or a trusted friend. That way you are not only stopping counterfeiting but also removing the market for stolen gear (so rucsac will be safe at the bottom of the crag). A separate issue but one that can be cured by the same action. Any secondhand/anonymously sold gear can be stolen, dodgy etc. Never buy that way and we can solve the problem ourselves.
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