Their potential reliability isn't inspiring if half the 6 sizes have been recalled (6's some time ago). Though DMM have moved quickly and taken the action that I'd hope they would so DMM trust is still there, but I hear your thoughts on money back, I have 2 which will be returned, as yet, unused. First impressions and all that.
In reply to baileyswalk: Realy not happy with this at all as had to send my size six back as well. Now got to send my 4 and 5 back just befor the weather starts geting good for trad. Havent got any other cams as sold them hope it does as the not take as long as it did for the size 6 to come back.
With the size 6 recall, could you not also take them back to the shop you purchased them from, instead of posting them back to DMM yourself? Is this an option for this recall?
I returned a size 6 direct to DMM in their postage paid envelope.
It took from (I think) July until September / October (can't remember exactly) for them to send me a new one. I also got a free screwgate.
I'm glad I don't have any other affected cams this time round though, as I wouldn't want to be without these two sizes for as long.
Fingers crossed that the turnaround is quicker this time (as they are rebuilding existing cams I think, rather than making new ones?) so people wont be inconvenienced too badly.
The Recall is confined to the size 4 and 5 Dragon Cams. The size 6 recall is still current and concerns the same component, namely the axel boss.
Size 1,2,and 3 are unaffected (they have a stainless steel axel boss.)
In the UK you have two options, either return the cam direct to us, or return it to the point of purchase.
As with the size six recall we will make every attempt to reimburse folks in some way for the cost of postage.
We have immediately set up an internal system to ensure that returns are dealt with as quickly as possible. The time scale will be be faster than the size six replacement.
Again we apologise for any inconvenience and would like to thank the climbing public for their help in this matter. Please pass on the correct information to anybody you think might not have heard, although we have tried to raise the matter through as many different routes as possible.
> I returned a size 6 direct to DMM in their postage paid envelope.
> It took from (I think) July until September / October (can't remember exactly) for them to send me a new one. I also got a free screwgate.
2/3 months of season without these would be a pain, just starting to think about plans. Good that DMM have a process in place to make this swifter this time around.
Not too bothered though as I have some older gear I can use again, and the main thing is DMM are doing what they can to fix the problem.
> A good friend advised me not to buy these due to this design. He thought it just looked like an obvious weak point.
> Seems he was correct.
Well everyone could say that now couldn't they. I'm pretty sure that the guys and girls at DMM will have done a signifficant amount of work in the design of this component. Wasn't the reason for the no.6 problems identified as a source and supply issue so not really a problem with the design.
When my current cams get too old I'll still be looking at getting a set on dragon cams.
In reply to UKC Gear: I have a size 4 that needs to be sent back, contacted Field & Trek, metrocentre, gateshead where I bought it. After speaking to 2 assistants it became clear that they knew nothing(a bit worrying) about the recall. So will be sending it back direct.
Hi Chris, trying times I'm sure. Really like my Dragons & so far have been happy with the way the recall has been dealt with, I am starting to miss my cams now though and was wondering:
> As with the size six recall we will make every attempt to reimburse folks in some way for the cost of postage.
In what way are you going to reimburse people (shiney new gear would suit me ;D)?
> We have immediately set up an internal system to ensure that returns are dealt with as quickly as possible. The time scale will be be faster than the size six replacement.
Tough one to call I imagine but could you be more accurite with the time scale? I have no idea how long the last recall took for a start, are we talking a couple more weeks or months here (my cams should have been with you Feb 18th)?
Thanks for your comments and support, glad you like your Dragons !
OK, to answer your queries,The first returned cams will be leaving us tomorrow. We are working on a 'first in first out' basis, and your cam will leave tomorrow and should be with you Thursday, Friday latest.
There will be a shiny piece of Kit to reimburse your carriage costs.
Yes,it has been a tricky couple of weeks and our team has been working flat out to keep things moving. We are grateful to the climbing public for their continued patience and support, and we will carry on doing our best to make sure you are not left 'Dragonless' for too long !!
I'm thinking of buying some Dragons because they look like great bits of gear, but two recalls over manufacturing faults in a short space of time seems a bit worrying. I'm quite new to climbing and don't know how often stuff gets recalled or what the background is, and I'm vaguely reassured that noone else is rushing to abandon DMM / Dragons. Could someone specifically reassure me as to why finding two problems doesn't make it more likely that there are others lurking and waiting to bite me?
I think it's because they've shown themselves to be pretty responsible about dealing with recalls. On both occasions they've got the word out quickly that there is an issue and put a process in place to sort it out. That, and although last time it took a while to resolve (some redesign was required and presumably some retooling was needed to produce new parts) I'm hoping that they'll be quicker to sort out this time since they can immediately produce replacement parts that currently have not shown any issues in use.
That, and I'm happy to support Welsh manufacturing
Don't think so. Spoke to V12 yesterday who said they didn't send mine back for about 4 days (even though it was the day after the recall when I dropped them off there) -- sending back by bulk rather than one set at a time -- which is fair enough. May explain the slight delay.
Hoping they won't be far off. Looks like a crappy weekend, weather-wise anyway.
> (In reply to baileyswalk)
> We are working on a 'first in first out' basis, and your cam will leave tomorrow and should be with you Thursday, Friday latest.
Hi Chris, have eagerly been awaiting the arrival of the mail-man each day only to be dissapointed, starting to worry that my cams have now been lost in the ether. It has been over a week now since you thought I should have recieved them and outside the sun is shining (panic!).
I just received an email informing me that my cams will be starting their return journey today (they reached DMM on 18th Feb). I assume everyone will get this confirmation if they put a valid email address on the returns form.
> (In reply to Chris Rowlands - DMM)
> Hi Chris, have eagerly been awaiting the arrival of the mail-man each day only to be dissapointed, starting to worry that my cams have now been lost in the ether. It has been over a week now since you thought I should have recieved them and outside the sun is shining (panic!).
> I have the serial numbers if that would help.
CANT DELETE MY ABOVE PREVIOUS POST BUT PLEASE DISREGARD IT, JUST RECEIVED EMAIL CONFIRMATION FROM DMM
I don't expect I'll receive a reply but I'll ask anyway.
How did defective equipment get out of your factory and into the shops in the first place?
I note these parts are machined and not forged. Did you carry out a full re qualification on these Dragons or did you qualify the forged parts and then substituted turned parts assuming they would be just as good?
I like DMM gear, I've got a lot of it but I've got a very low tolerance to poor quality climbing equipment. How can anyone be sure that this sort of thing won't happen again with DMM kit? The next time the consequences could be serious.
I'm sure you'll get an answer when they have a chance, but as I understand it the original design for sizes 4,5,6 used a turned part. The recall for size 6 was reportedly down to strength issues with the raw material used (http://www.dmmclimbing.com/dragonrecall.asp ), presumably internal fractures in the stock that only became visible after it was turned, fitted, then left stressed for a period of time (if you look at the stem design it looks as though the steel cable end swage is a compression fit in the central hole in the axle and is also a square peg in a round hole). The forged part is a later redesign when the issue became apparent (http://www.dmmclimbing.com/news.asp?nid=332&ngroup=1 ).
My guess would be that the issue with the 4,5,6 turned part is exactly the same, initial recall covered size 6 only as no other sizes had shown the defect, size 5 took longer to become apparent presumably because they're smaller parts, hence size 4 is also being recalled despite no size 4 having shown it yet.
1,2,3 use a single stainless steel part similar to the same size camalots.
I guess when constant pressure to innovate and produce lighter and lighter gear, eventually something like this happens. The important thing to take away from the whole thing is the exceptional way that DMM have handled all the recalls and been up-front about the situation, and most importantly that not a single unit has failed in use.
> I guess when constant pressure to innovate and produce lighter and lighter gear, eventually something like this happens.
Really? I'm a mechanical design engineer and I absolutely don't accept that defective equipment should ever get into the shops. The problem DMM have had is not with the design anyway it's that they didn't check the parts well enough.
> The important thing to take away from the whole thing is the exceptional way that DMM have handled all the recalls and been up-front about the situation, and most importantly that not a single unit has failed in use.
You seem to have a very tolerant attitude to defective climbing equipment. Once DMM realised there was a serious defect in a batch of equipment they had no alternative but to organise a recall. The alternative would be to sit tight and hope no other piece of equipment failed with someone getting hurt.
Anyway, let's see if we get an answer on Monday when they get back to work.
>...I absolutely don't accept that defective equipment should ever get into the shops. The problem DMM have had is not with the design anyway it's that they didn't check the parts well enough.
Although thats a good aim, in a real world situation it is unreasonable to expect that every fault will be found before a product hits the shelves. There are simply faults that can't be discovered however much time and money you throw at design and testing.
We have always tried to respond to questions raised in this Forum,and we have been completely open in all the information we have published relating to the recall.
Our most important aim once the fault was spotted was to do everything possible to bring the issue to people's attention in order to safeguard their safety. That done (although this is an ongoing process due to the fact that the cams have been sold far and wide and have ended up in all parts of the globe) our next aim was to remedy the issue and return the cams to their original owners. The first customer returns were sent out to their owners last Thursday and we are currently processing large numbers of cams on a daily basis. The first cams were returned three weeks after the initialm recall, and turnaround time is now between a week and two weeks max.
No manufacturer enjoys this sort of situation, but sadly it is a fact that it can and does happen, and not just in the climbing Industry. In no way is that an excuse, it is a statement of fact. You would be hardpressed to find another climbing Brand which hasn't had a recall, or more than one in its history. We have been trading for thirty years and this is our first such episode. Now that it has happened we are obviously doing everything we can to try to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Quite simply that is all we can do .
All the Dragons are 100% inspected by Inspectors who have a huge amount of experience between them. It is important to point out that they did not leave DMM with visible faults, so it is wrong to state that we didn't inspect them properly. The problem is a time related one, and so the faults appeared weeks/months after the units had left Llanberis.
The Axel Boss was a turned part right from the start.
To ensure that this doesn't happen again we have done two things. We have changed the Alloy that the Axel Boss is made from, and we have also changed the method of manufacture. The combination of these two measures will prevent this sort of cracking from happening.
We too have a low tolerance of poor quality climbing gear which is why it is a bitter pill for us to swallow, but we feel we have acted quickly and responsibly. We will continue to try to keep our customers up to date with any developments in the situation, and are grateful for everybody's help, co-operation and patience in the matter.
Many thanks for the quick turn around of my cam , i appreciate these things happen ,and i'm sure i'm not alone in saying this is more reason to stand by our local brands and support you guys as you do us
Could you give some idea how long the turnaround is currently. I sent my size 4 and 5 cams back at the start of April (got an e-mail acknowledging receipt on the 8th April), but am still waiting for the cams to be returned.
I've had to be without them for one climbing trip, and now it seems likely that I won't have them back for my next trip on the 7th May either.
I appreciate that this must be a difficult situation to manage, but am disappointed that nobody could reply to my mails enquiring about when they'll be returned.
In reply to highlandmist: Sent mine back on the 3rd March, got no info till I emailed them on the 15th April, was told it had been sent out the previous week and would be with me in a few days, it never turned up. Emailed them again, they told me they would put another in the post, five days later got another email saying they had none in stock, so it would be at least another 2 weeks. So thats means I've be without mine for 2 months.
In reply to UKC Gear: Haven't heard a peep from them for a month and a half+ and no reply to my emails, not impressed at all. I really like DMM stuff but this is getting silly as I'm having to borrow camalots for my trips.
In reply to A Stores: Unlucky guys, DMM were mega quick with mine, and I don't think I was mega quick off the mark to take them back into the factory either... hopefully this won't ruin DMMs reputation, as they still make some of the best kit going and all from sunny little Llanberis...
This is getting a bit absurd. I phoned on Tuesday to find out if there was any chance of getting them back in time for a trip leaving today. I was told that they were back from the factory and would be sent out that day.
Still no sign of them today so I phoned back and was told it would be at least another 2 weeks. They also seemed to think I'd sent in 4 cams when in fact I've only sent 2.
That would make it a 7 week wait (at least) which is bad enough in itself. I don't have the luxury of being able to borrow replacement gear from friends so this is a real pain.
But what's far worse is the ignored mail and now completely confused messages which have made me completely lose confidence in the process. I've always had excellent service from DMM in the past, and been extremely happy with every purchase. But all that goodwill has been destroyed by this experience.