/ IMPORTANT NEWS: DMM Dragon Cam Recall Notice
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=3477
Their potential reliability isn't inspiring if half the 6 sizes have been recalled (6's some time ago). Though DMM have moved quickly and taken the action that I'd hope they would so DMM trust is still there, but I hear your thoughts on money back, I have 2 which will be returned, as yet, unused. First impressions and all that.
In the context I think it's fair to link the previous recall: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=418411
*If* this relates to a similar problem (and they both appear to be axle boss issues) then it's hard to se how DMM cannot be rather damaged by the news.
Will they accept returns of *any* turned-boss cams???
Quite nicely explained how the size 1, 2 and 3 cams use different components.
D(a)mm!! Four and five and the five has a crack on one side of the axle! Anyone else found one defected??
Thanks DMM, I'll be sticking to Camalots in the future though.
Really, how long did it take??
Yeh hopefully they'll pay postage... Im skint!
When the Dragon 6 was recalled, DMM sent out a postage paid envelope which made the return easier to organise.
I have to pay postage to send the 4 and 5 back. I'll be sending them "signed for" because of the costs of the cams. Will the postage cost be reimbursed somehow?
> I have to pay postage to send the 4 and 5 back. I'll be sending them "signed for" because of the costs of the cams. Will the postage cost be reimbursed somehow?
At least I got a nice Phantom locker when I received my no. 6 back, as compensation for shelling out around 9 € for postage... As the prepaid envelope was only for those in the UK.
With the size 6 recall, could you not also take them back to the shop you purchased them from, instead of posting them back to DMM yourself? Is this an option for this recall?
I returned a size 6 direct to DMM in their postage paid envelope.
It took from (I think) July until September / October (can't remember exactly) for them to send me a new one. I also got a free screwgate.
I'm glad I don't have any other affected cams this time round though, as I wouldn't want to be without these two sizes for as long.
Fingers crossed that the turnaround is quicker this time (as they are rebuilding existing cams I think, rather than making new ones?) so people wont be inconvenienced too badly.
Here's the original report from the US retailer -
> Quite nicely explained how the size 1, 2 and 3 cams use different components.
Just to pick up on a few points raised so far.
The Recall is confined to the size 4 and 5 Dragon Cams. The size 6 recall is still current and concerns the same component, namely the axel boss.
Size 1,2,and 3 are unaffected (they have a stainless steel axel boss.)
In the UK you have two options, either return the cam direct to us, or return it to the point of purchase.
As with the size six recall we will make every attempt to reimburse folks in some way for the cost of postage.
We have immediately set up an internal system to ensure that returns are dealt with as quickly as possible. The time scale will be be faster than the size six replacement.
Again we apologise for any inconvenience and would like to thank the climbing public for their help in this matter. Please pass on the correct information to anybody you think might not have heard, although we have tried to raise the matter through as many different routes as possible.
Brand Manager DMM
Will DMM be dealing on the returns on a first come first served basis?
Yes Eric we will be repairing them on a daily basis as they come in.
Chris Brand Manager DMM
Great, many thanks for the immediate reply.
On a positive note, I and I am sure many others on here are huge fans of DMM gear and have not lost sight of that.
what about the sling(s)? the one on my blue dragon needs replacing, I think. attach a note or let you guys decide whether that's necessary or not?
Yes we'll check the sling too, no problem
> It took from (I think) July until September / October (can't remember exactly) for them to send me a new one. I also got a free screwgate.
2/3 months of season without these would be a pain, just starting to think about plans. Good that DMM have a process in place to make this swifter this time around.
Not too bothered though as I have some older gear I can use again, and the main thing is DMM are doing what they can to fix the problem.
Meh DMM has been so good until now. I know it's a new product but yeah this needs to get sorted. I don't think I will ask for my money back I'll just send off my no.4 soon as.
Seems he was correct.
cheers Chris, you're doing a great job at handling this rather unpleasant issue I'd say!
looks rather similar to the camalot design and they are fine.
Really. Have a good look
Sad that I will be losing my number 4 for a bit, but glad that I bought from a company that has acted as swiftly as they have done.
> Seems he was correct.
Well everyone could say that now couldn't they. I'm pretty sure that the guys and girls at DMM will have done a signifficant amount of work in the design of this component. Wasn't the reason for the no.6 problems identified as a source and supply issue so not really a problem with the design.
When my current cams get too old I'll still be looking at getting a set on dragon cams.
I'll be in Llanberis this weekend, can I drop my 4 & 5 in on Saturday or Monday morning?
We are in the office Mondays to Fridays, 8:30 until 5:00pm.
Please feel free to drop your returned Dragon Cams in between those times.
There will be a member of the sales team present to answer your questions regarding the matter.
Thank you for your support and sorry for the inconvenienced caused.
Thanks Ben, I'll probably drop them in Monday.
Must be a tricky situation for you, but with the way you seem to be handleing it, I will probably be more likely to buy your gear in the future rather than less likely.
Just sent my pair back at the cost of £5.50 plus packaging.
Chris- is there any indication of how long repairs will take?
New information on how the recall is going has now been added by DMM
Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=3477
Seems to be missing the link for the online returns system.
Hi Chris, trying times I'm sure. Really like my Dragons & so far have been happy with the way the recall has been dealt with, I am starting to miss my cams now though and was wondering:
In what way are you going to reimburse people (shiney new gear would suit me ;D)?
Tough one to call I imagine but could you be more accurite with the time scale? I have no idea how long the last recall took for a start, are we talking a couple more weeks or months here (my cams should have been with you Feb 18th)?
Thanks for your comments and support, glad you like your Dragons !
OK, to answer your queries,The first returned cams will be leaving us tomorrow. We are working on a 'first in first out' basis, and your cam will leave tomorrow and should be with you Thursday, Friday latest.
There will be a shiny piece of Kit to reimburse your carriage costs.
Yes,it has been a tricky couple of weeks and our team has been working flat out to keep things moving. We are grateful to the climbing public for their continued patience and support, and we will carry on doing our best to make sure you are not left 'Dragonless' for too long !!
Brand Manager DMM
I'm thinking of buying some Dragons because they look like great bits of gear, but two recalls over manufacturing faults in a short space of time seems a bit worrying. I'm quite new to climbing and don't know how often stuff gets recalled or what the background is, and I'm vaguely reassured that noone else is rushing to abandon DMM / Dragons. Could someone specifically reassure me as to why finding two problems doesn't make it more likely that there are others lurking and waiting to bite me?
Is there someone I can email to check my Dragon got to DMM OK, and get a rough idea of when I might see it again?
Sorry, you're probably getting a lot of these queries, but there wasn't an obvious email link on the recall page, and I put mine in the post before you launched the new web-form for returns...
I think it's because they've shown themselves to be pretty responsible about dealing with recalls. On both occasions they've got the word out quickly that there is an issue and put a process in place to sort it out. That, and although last time it took a while to resolve (some redesign was required and presumably some retooling was needed to produce new parts) I'm hoping that they'll be quicker to sort out this time since they can immediately produce replacement parts that currently have not shown any issues in use.
That, and I'm happy to support Welsh manufacturing :-)
Looking forward to getting mine back. Anyone had theirs yet?
Don't think so. Spoke to V12 yesterday who said they didn't send mine back for about 4 days (even though it was the day after the recall when I dropped them off there) -- sending back by bulk rather than one set at a time -- which is fair enough. May explain the slight delay.
Hoping they won't be far off. Looks like a crappy weekend, weather-wise anyway.
A standard email wouldn't take long to send.
Yeah I could do with at least knowing that they have them. I have no proof what-so-ever that I've even dropped them off at V12...
Still, communication has been good, in general, so far and I'm sure they're doing their best.
Have had a very speedy response from Chris Rowlands
I am pretty impressed posted my cam back on 01/03 and got an email this morning saying that it is being shipped back and should be with me in a couple of days.
I was expecting weeks
Only just saw this, will be sending mine back tomorrow. Luckily haven't taken a fall on mine!
I sent mine back around then, too, and have heard nothing (despite sending DMM an email, and asking up-thread if I should email a particular address).
> We are working on a 'first in first out' basis, and your cam will leave tomorrow and should be with you Thursday, Friday latest.
Hi Chris, have eagerly been awaiting the arrival of the mail-man each day only to be dissapointed, starting to worry that my cams have now been lost in the ether. It has been over a week now since you thought I should have recieved them and outside the sun is shining (panic!).
I have the serial numbers if that would help.
I just received an email informing me that my cams will be starting their return journey today (they reached DMM on 18th Feb). I assume everyone will get this confirmation if they put a valid email address on the returns form.
> Hi Chris, have eagerly been awaiting the arrival of the mail-man each day only to be dissapointed, starting to worry that my cams have now been lost in the ether. It has been over a week now since you thought I should have recieved them and outside the sun is shining (panic!).
> I have the serial numbers if that would help.
CANT DELETE MY ABOVE PREVIOUS POST BUT PLEASE DISREGARD IT, JUST RECEIVED EMAIL CONFIRMATION FROM DMM
Top service DMM!
Just received my 3 and 4 dragon cam with matching spectre biner and new slings, top service thanks DMM
Dragon 3 and 4 arrived today as per the above with new slings and biners.
For those still waiting the timeline was posted 21/02, arrived at DMM 23/02, email from DMM 10/03, arrived back 11/03.
Glad to have them back and will continue to buy DMM in the future.
Got mine back this morning in little over 2 week turnaround. Top work DMM.
I want mine :-( ...
> Dragon 3 and 4 arrived today as per the above with new slings and biners.
Wasn't it just 4+5 that were under recall?
Might have been a 4 & 5!
Got mines yesterday, great service DMM, cheers! Now I need to go and find me some crack.
I don't expect I'll receive a reply but I'll ask anyway.
How did defective equipment get out of your factory and into the shops in the first place?
I note these parts are machined and not forged. Did you carry out a full re qualification on these Dragons or did you qualify the forged parts and then substituted turned parts assuming they would be just as good?
I like DMM gear, I've got a lot of it but I've got a very low tolerance to poor quality climbing equipment. How can anyone be sure that this sort of thing won't happen again with DMM kit? The next time the consequences could be serious.
I'm sure you'll get an answer when they have a chance, but as I understand it the original design for sizes 4,5,6 used a turned part. The recall for size 6 was reportedly down to strength issues with the raw material used (http://www.dmmclimbing.com/dragonrecall.asp ), presumably internal fractures in the stock that only became visible after it was turned, fitted, then left stressed for a period of time (if you look at the stem design it looks as though the steel cable end swage is a compression fit in the central hole in the axle and is also a square peg in a round hole). The forged part is a later redesign when the issue became apparent (http://www.dmmclimbing.com/news.asp?nid=332&ngroup=1 ).
My guess would be that the issue with the 4,5,6 turned part is exactly the same, initial recall covered size 6 only as no other sizes had shown the defect, size 5 took longer to become apparent presumably because they're smaller parts, hence size 4 is also being recalled despite no size 4 having shown it yet.
1,2,3 use a single stainless steel part similar to the same size camalots.
I guess when constant pressure to innovate and produce lighter and lighter gear, eventually something like this happens. The important thing to take away from the whole thing is the exceptional way that DMM have handled all the recalls and been up-front about the situation, and most importantly that not a single unit has failed in use.
Really? I'm a mechanical design engineer and I absolutely don't accept that defective equipment should ever get into the shops. The problem DMM have had is not with the design anyway it's that they didn't check the parts well enough.
You seem to have a very tolerant attitude to defective climbing equipment. Once DMM realised there was a serious defect in a batch of equipment they had no alternative but to organise a recall. The alternative would be to sit tight and hope no other piece of equipment failed with someone getting hurt.
Anyway, let's see if we get an answer on Monday when they get back to work.
>...I absolutely don't accept that defective equipment should ever get into the shops. The problem DMM have had is not with the design anyway it's that they didn't check the parts well enough.
Although thats a good aim, in a real world situation it is unreasonable to expect that every fault will be found before a product hits the shelves. There are simply faults that can't be discovered however much time and money you throw at design and testing.
We have always tried to respond to questions raised in this Forum,and we have been completely open in all the information we have published relating to the recall.
Our most important aim once the fault was spotted was to do everything possible to bring the issue to people's attention in order to safeguard their safety. That done (although this is an ongoing process due to the fact that the cams have been sold far and wide and have ended up in all parts of the globe) our next aim was to remedy the issue and return the cams to their original owners. The first customer returns were sent out to their owners last Thursday and we are currently processing large numbers of cams on a daily basis. The first cams were returned three weeks after the initialm recall, and turnaround time is now between a week and two weeks max.
No manufacturer enjoys this sort of situation, but sadly it is a fact that it can and does happen, and not just in the climbing Industry. In no way is that an excuse, it is a statement of fact. You would be hardpressed to find another climbing Brand which hasn't had a recall, or more than one in its history. We have been trading for thirty years and this is our first such episode. Now that it has happened we are obviously doing everything we can to try to ensure that it doesn't happen again. Quite simply that is all we can do .
All the Dragons are 100% inspected by Inspectors who have a huge amount of experience between them. It is important to point out that they did not leave DMM with visible faults, so it is wrong to state that we didn't inspect them properly. The problem is a time related one, and so the faults appeared weeks/months after the units had left Llanberis.
The Axel Boss was a turned part right from the start.
To ensure that this doesn't happen again we have done two things. We have changed the Alloy that the Axel Boss is made from, and we have also changed the method of manufacture. The combination of these two measures will prevent this sort of cracking from happening.
We too have a low tolerance of poor quality climbing gear which is why it is a bitter pill for us to swallow, but we feel we have acted quickly and responsibly. We will continue to try to keep our customers up to date with any developments in the situation, and are grateful for everybody's help, co-operation and patience in the matter.
Brand Manager DMM
Could you explain why the Square ped round hole design( sorry I can't be more technical) was used in the larger sizes? It would seem to be a method that would lead to cracks forming.
Many thanks for the quick turn around of my cam , i appreciate these things happen ,and i'm sure i'm not alone in saying this is more reason to stand by our local brands and support you guys as you do us
Could you give some idea how long the turnaround is currently. I sent my size 4 and 5 cams back at the start of April (got an e-mail acknowledging receipt on the 8th April), but am still waiting for the cams to be returned.
I've had to be without them for one climbing trip, and now it seems likely that I won't have them back for my next trip on the 7th May either.
I appreciate that this must be a difficult situation to manage, but am disappointed that nobody could reply to my mails enquiring about when they'll be returned.
Me too. 4+5 sent back 11th March. No acknowledgement of receipt, progress or anything else.
Also no response to emails. When should I declare them missing and make a claim ?
Lauren Brindle <Lauren@dmmwales.com>
Many apologies to the last three posters who have had a delay in receiving their cams back, and to anybody else who has experienced a delay.
Unfortunately any system isn't foolproof and some customers have experienced problems.
Please email me direct at <firstname.lastname@example.org> with full contact details and I'll check on our system and get back to you direct as soon as possible.
Brand Manager DMM
Doh ! Cams arrived today :)
This is getting a bit absurd. I phoned on Tuesday to find out if there was any chance of getting them back in time for a trip leaving today. I was told that they were back from the factory and would be sent out that day.
Still no sign of them today so I phoned back and was told it would be at least another 2 weeks. They also seemed to think I'd sent in 4 cams when in fact I've only sent 2.
That would make it a 7 week wait (at least) which is bad enough in itself. I don't have the luxury of being able to borrow replacement gear from friends so this is a real pain.
But what's far worse is the ignored mail and now completely confused messages which have made me completely lose confidence in the process. I've always had excellent service from DMM in the past, and been extremely happy with every purchase. But all that goodwill has been destroyed by this experience.
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