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Just wondering what people think to coaching? Is it worth paying for?
Doesn't climbing more, pushing yourself and falling more (to reduce the fear of falling and therefore more likely to make the next move) etc make you climb better?
Doesn't climbing more, pushing yourself and falling more (to reduce the fear of falling and therefore more likely to make the next move) etc make you climb better?
In reply to VPJB:
It will be a very personal thing but its hard to see how coaching can't be of any benefit to anyone.
It will be a very personal thing but its hard to see how coaching can't be of any benefit to anyone.
In reply to VPJB:
It's definitely a false economy, you don't save anything! But I think the answer to what you mean is obviously 'depends'. I wouldn't dream of paying for coaching, but then I'm poor and not that desperate to get better.
It's definitely a false economy, you don't save anything! But I think the answer to what you mean is obviously 'depends'. I wouldn't dream of paying for coaching, but then I'm poor and not that desperate to get better.
In reply to VPJB:
No use to anyone that has a closed mind.
However, footballers who earn thousands, top golfers, tennis players, cyclists, runners, skiers, swimmers all seem to have coaches. Wonder why if it does not make them better?
No use to anyone that has a closed mind.
However, footballers who earn thousands, top golfers, tennis players, cyclists, runners, skiers, swimmers all seem to have coaches. Wonder why if it does not make them better?
In reply to VPJB: it depends-if your struggling to improve because yopu dont know how or because your doing something wrong then no,coaching isnt a false economy.if your improving ok on your own then it could still help you but probably not necessary
In reply to VPJB:
Not tried it with climbing, but I got a massive gain in skiing ability so I can easily believe it would be worthwhile.
Not tried it with climbing, but I got a massive gain in skiing ability so I can easily believe it would be worthwhile.
In reply to VPJB:
I would love to know this as well. Has anyone tried it?
Not desperate at this stage but I often wonder if there are subtle things that an expert could tell me to change.
I would love to know this as well. Has anyone tried it?
Not desperate at this stage but I often wonder if there are subtle things that an expert could tell me to change.
In reply to andy moles:
Coaching has its place, depends on the coach and student as to what they get out of it. I suspect its the "time rich, money poor OR time poor, money rich" argument for many.
Money or time? what is it you have to invest? Historically time has been the a major influence, though I also suspect that peer groups play a bigger part - if you learn and hang around with good bold climbers then you become better and bolder. Trying many extravagant routes to failure in the process. If all around you are the negative and timid, then you don't develop as greatly as something holds you back - the head game or your peers.
Trouble is, good climbers who achieve highly don't want to hang out with considerably less able climbers as they get held back from their own goals and ambitions - top end climbers are often driven or ambitious.
(generalisation, though generally true - don't see many beginers at malham, nor superstars at stanage popular. The difference between good and high achieving can be debated elsewhere)
So, pay to hang out with a good/high achieving climber who gives you concentrated attention and support. ie a coach.
Many sports and hobbies people go for lessons, or have an instructor leading a class. There are obvious benefits.
How do you measure an instructors ability? Climbing is so multi dimensional that rationalising and expressing it in language is nearly impossible. AND those who are naturally gifted may not understand what they do or that others find it difficult.
So, in short, either or all:
Get some mates who are more than a bit good, pay for coaching and/or put the time and effort in. It's a hard won success, but one I find very rewarding, and very ambition dependant.
Thats my 2 beers two pennys worth.
Coaching has its place, depends on the coach and student as to what they get out of it. I suspect its the "time rich, money poor OR time poor, money rich" argument for many.
Money or time? what is it you have to invest? Historically time has been the a major influence, though I also suspect that peer groups play a bigger part - if you learn and hang around with good bold climbers then you become better and bolder. Trying many extravagant routes to failure in the process. If all around you are the negative and timid, then you don't develop as greatly as something holds you back - the head game or your peers.
Trouble is, good climbers who achieve highly don't want to hang out with considerably less able climbers as they get held back from their own goals and ambitions - top end climbers are often driven or ambitious.
(generalisation, though generally true - don't see many beginers at malham, nor superstars at stanage popular. The difference between good and high achieving can be debated elsewhere)
So, pay to hang out with a good/high achieving climber who gives you concentrated attention and support. ie a coach.
Many sports and hobbies people go for lessons, or have an instructor leading a class. There are obvious benefits.
How do you measure an instructors ability? Climbing is so multi dimensional that rationalising and expressing it in language is nearly impossible. AND those who are naturally gifted may not understand what they do or that others find it difficult.
So, in short, either or all:
Get some mates who are more than a bit good, pay for coaching and/or put the time and effort in. It's a hard won success, but one I find very rewarding, and very ambition dependant.
Thats my 2 beers two pennys worth.
In reply to VPJB:
They can analyse your performance relatively quickly and tell you where you major weaknesses lie.
With the help of books (9/10, self coached climber etc) or you can analyse your own performance but it is difficult to do and takes lots of practice. How do you know for sure what your biggest weaknesses are?
You then need to target your other weaknesses.
These could be:
* technical - poor footwork, static movement, climbing slowly ,inabiliy to smear, lack of twisting of the trunk when climbing steep ground etc.
* mental - inability to push yourself, route reading.
Physical - lack of finger strength, endurance, flexibility at hip, lock off strength.
These are just some of them.
The point I'm making is that identifying and targetting these weaknesses is difficult. Having a coach can make this a lot easier.
No, I don't think it's a false economy.
James
> Just wondering what people think to coaching? Is it worth paying for?
I've done it and would definitely pay for it again (and I'm planning to). You improve most quickly by attacking ones own weaknesses and it is difficult to know exactly what your weaknesses are. Having someone elses objective view is best. Another climber works well but an experienced coach is better. They can analyse your performance relatively quickly and tell you where you major weaknesses lie.
With the help of books (9/10, self coached climber etc) or you can analyse your own performance but it is difficult to do and takes lots of practice. How do you know for sure what your biggest weaknesses are?
> Doesn't climbing more, pushing yourself and falling more (to reduce the fear of falling and therefore more likely to make the next move) etc make you climb better?
Yes, climbing more, pushing yourself and falling will get rid of your fear of falling. But what happens when fear of falling is no long a significant weakness? Your improvement from sessions of falls will have started to level off and you will stop improving from fall sessions. You then need to target your other weaknesses.
These could be:
* technical - poor footwork, static movement, climbing slowly ,inabiliy to smear, lack of twisting of the trunk when climbing steep ground etc.
* mental - inability to push yourself, route reading.
Physical - lack of finger strength, endurance, flexibility at hip, lock off strength.
These are just some of them.
The point I'm making is that identifying and targetting these weaknesses is difficult. Having a coach can make this a lot easier.
No, I don't think it's a false economy.
James
In reply to Daniel Heath:
Yes - I had about 10 years of one on one music lessons. In that time, I did my grade 8 flute, grade 5 theory exam and got a B in GCSE music (privately). I wouldn't have been able to do that without my teacher or coach.
Of course coaching only really works if you have it reasonably regularly. Going for a one off lesson may open your eyes to some things you hadn't thought about, but this will only be reinforced if you attend regular sessions.
For the ultimate coaching, you need sessions every week with time to practice in between sessions, but I think every 2 weeks or even every month would still be beneficial. The most important thing though is that you spend time practising what the coach has pointed out between sessions. Unfortunately we tend to climb for fun. Practising is rarely fun as it involves lots of repetition but if you are serious about it go for it!
> I would love to know this as well. Has anyone tried it?
Yes - I had about 10 years of one on one music lessons. In that time, I did my grade 8 flute, grade 5 theory exam and got a B in GCSE music (privately). I wouldn't have been able to do that without my teacher or coach.
Of course coaching only really works if you have it reasonably regularly. Going for a one off lesson may open your eyes to some things you hadn't thought about, but this will only be reinforced if you attend regular sessions.
For the ultimate coaching, you need sessions every week with time to practice in between sessions, but I think every 2 weeks or even every month would still be beneficial. The most important thing though is that you spend time practising what the coach has pointed out between sessions. Unfortunately we tend to climb for fun. Practising is rarely fun as it involves lots of repetition but if you are serious about it go for it!
In reply to VPJB:
Don't know. I've always suspected not but that's just me, my circumstances, my view.
Surely it all depends what's holding you back (and whether you care)? Paying someone to train you to fall seems like an utter waste of money and everyone's time. Paying someone as a novice to get you moving better and into good career-long habits I imagine could be very valuable indeed. Paying someone to help you past that plateau you're stuck at... that's up to you. It'll probably work but the advice for most folk will boil down to 'prepare better, try harder, keep going'.
jk
> Is it worth paying for?
Don't know. I've always suspected not but that's just me, my circumstances, my view.
> Doesn't climbing more, pushing yourself and falling more (to reduce the fear of falling and therefore more likely to make the next move) etc make you climb better?
Surely it all depends what's holding you back (and whether you care)? Paying someone to train you to fall seems like an utter waste of money and everyone's time. Paying someone as a novice to get you moving better and into good career-long habits I imagine could be very valuable indeed. Paying someone to help you past that plateau you're stuck at... that's up to you. It'll probably work but the advice for most folk will boil down to 'prepare better, try harder, keep going'.
jk
In reply to VPJB:
Until recently I would have laughed at the idea of paying for coaching. But then I saw the written feedback a friend got from a coaching session with Dave Macleod - I was really impressed at the sort of things (weaknesses) and detail that were being picked up which and most of us would never notice (especially in ourselves). I would now seriously consider this sort of thing - it might just change me into a steady E5 leader (with access to many routes of my dreams) rather than someone who might occasionally struggle up an E5 when I am going well on a good day with the wind behind me on a route requiring a massive reach at the crux!
Oh, and having read Dave Macleod's book, he is absolutely right about the importance of regular falling practice. I have gritted my teeth and really gone for this over the last couple of months. It has been astonishingly liberating, transforming the quality and enjoyment of my indoor training.
> Just wondering what people think to coaching? Is it worth paying for?
Until recently I would have laughed at the idea of paying for coaching. But then I saw the written feedback a friend got from a coaching session with Dave Macleod - I was really impressed at the sort of things (weaknesses) and detail that were being picked up which and most of us would never notice (especially in ourselves). I would now seriously consider this sort of thing - it might just change me into a steady E5 leader (with access to many routes of my dreams) rather than someone who might occasionally struggle up an E5 when I am going well on a good day with the wind behind me on a route requiring a massive reach at the crux!
Oh, and having read Dave Macleod's book, he is absolutely right about the importance of regular falling practice. I have gritted my teeth and really gone for this over the last couple of months. It has been astonishingly liberating, transforming the quality and enjoyment of my indoor training.
Had some coaching with Neil Gresham earlier this year and it was invaluable. Will definitely be going again in may. If I had more money itd be every week!
In reply to jkarran:
The problem being that could just result in further ingraining bad habits.
> (In reply to VPJB)
> [...]
It'll probably work but the advice for most folk will boil down to 'prepare better, try harder, keep going'.> [...]
>
The problem being that could just result in further ingraining bad habits.
In reply to VPJB: Quickest way to get your grade up is to start top roping,outdoors.Try to keep off routes you want to lead at some time.
Climbing indoors helps fitness but is pretty useless for learning real rock skills.Getting up harder routes on top rope will build your confidence.
Also,don't block routes that other people want to lead or solo.
The rock is the best teacher.
Climbing indoors helps fitness but is pretty useless for learning real rock skills.Getting up harder routes on top rope will build your confidence.
Also,don't block routes that other people want to lead or solo.
The rock is the best teacher.
In reply to EeeByGum:
You also wouldn't have been able to do any of it without hours daily practice.
There's no doubt that coaching works, but it's by no means a magic bullet.
> Yes - I had about 10 years of one on one music lessons. In that time, I did my grade 8 flute, grade 5 theory exam and got a B in GCSE music (privately). I wouldn't have been able to do that without my teacher or coach.
You also wouldn't have been able to do any of it without hours daily practice.
There's no doubt that coaching works, but it's by no means a magic bullet.
In reply to Fantasian:
I believe that! I watched his DVD the other day, not all of it was applicable to me, but i reckon the section on techniques for over hangs probably got me up a grade jump nearly overnight.
I'd love a coaching session, but i cant ever see myself being able to afford it anytime soon.
There's a lot of esoteric BS around climbing, the idea that you will just 'sense' everything out with this spiritual relationship with the rock. Yes, maybe over time, and obviously there is no substitute for experience. But there's a bunch of short cuts available with no disadvantages.
First time i got shown a drop knee was enlightening, no idea how long it would have taken me to work it out for myself. Met someone the other day (keen but very new to climbing) who didn't know about closed crimps and was only using open crimps. I climbed with some Americans and my jamming technique got about 10 times better over the day.
Anyone who thinks they have nothing to gain from a coach has way too much ego and not enough sense I happily ask my climbing buddies to criticize my technique, saves so much time instead of trying to spot it yourself. It's amazing what a 3rd party perspective can offer. Had my belayer shout up the other day mid-crux
"BREATHE!"
"*gasp* ....oh yeah"
> Had some coaching with Neil Gresham earlier this year and it was invaluable. Will definitely be going again in may. If I had more money itd be every week!
I believe that! I watched his DVD the other day, not all of it was applicable to me, but i reckon the section on techniques for over hangs probably got me up a grade jump nearly overnight.
I'd love a coaching session, but i cant ever see myself being able to afford it anytime soon.
There's a lot of esoteric BS around climbing, the idea that you will just 'sense' everything out with this spiritual relationship with the rock. Yes, maybe over time, and obviously there is no substitute for experience. But there's a bunch of short cuts available with no disadvantages.
First time i got shown a drop knee was enlightening, no idea how long it would have taken me to work it out for myself. Met someone the other day (keen but very new to climbing) who didn't know about closed crimps and was only using open crimps. I climbed with some Americans and my jamming technique got about 10 times better over the day.
Anyone who thinks they have nothing to gain from a coach has way too much ego and not enough sense I happily ask my climbing buddies to criticize my technique, saves so much time instead of trying to spot it yourself. It's amazing what a 3rd party perspective can offer. Had my belayer shout up the other day mid-crux
"BREATHE!"
"*gasp* ....oh yeah"
In reply to Alun:
But that goes for anything. I am sure Andrew Murray spends several hours a day training and practising his shots.
> You also wouldn't have been able to do any of it without hours daily practice.
But that goes for anything. I am sure Andrew Murray spends several hours a day training and practising his shots.
In reply to Alun:
Sure, but that doesn't negate the value of coaching, instead it is an argument for it. Part of the point of coaching is that it can substantially improve the quality of your daily practice.
One thing that has been of tremendous value from each of the coaching sessions I've had (two different UK coaches) is that they get you paying attention to different aspects of your climbing and really listening to the feedback your body is giving you. ie. they give you the ability to go away and improve on your own, during your own practice sessions.
In 15+ years of playing the violin, in my experience the highest value teaching sessions were the ones which are aimed directly at improving your practice skills, and ability to listen to what you are doing, diagnose what is wrong and correct it yourself by teaching you to pay attention to the right sorts of feedback.
It's the whole 'learning how to learn' thing. After all there is not much point in doing hours and hours of practice per day if you are spending it thinking about the wrong things and endlessly rehearsing the same bad habits and inefficient movement skills, which you can't see because a) you have always done things that way, and b) all of your peers have the same bad habits - while kidding yourself that you are getting better.
In response to your last sentence, coaching isn't a magic bullet (except in certain very specific circumstances, I would have though) but combine that with daily effortful practice and some thought and effort applying what you have learned, and then you are cooking with gas.
> You also wouldn't have been able to do any of it without hours daily practice.
Sure, but that doesn't negate the value of coaching, instead it is an argument for it. Part of the point of coaching is that it can substantially improve the quality of your daily practice.
One thing that has been of tremendous value from each of the coaching sessions I've had (two different UK coaches) is that they get you paying attention to different aspects of your climbing and really listening to the feedback your body is giving you. ie. they give you the ability to go away and improve on your own, during your own practice sessions.
In 15+ years of playing the violin, in my experience the highest value teaching sessions were the ones which are aimed directly at improving your practice skills, and ability to listen to what you are doing, diagnose what is wrong and correct it yourself by teaching you to pay attention to the right sorts of feedback.
It's the whole 'learning how to learn' thing. After all there is not much point in doing hours and hours of practice per day if you are spending it thinking about the wrong things and endlessly rehearsing the same bad habits and inefficient movement skills, which you can't see because a) you have always done things that way, and b) all of your peers have the same bad habits - while kidding yourself that you are getting better.
In response to your last sentence, coaching isn't a magic bullet (except in certain very specific circumstances, I would have though) but combine that with daily effortful practice and some thought and effort applying what you have learned, and then you are cooking with gas.
In reply to paul mitchell:
I'd disagree. The harder routes bit is correct but the top-rope thing, for most people, isn't. Far better leading on well-protected hard stuff. Top-roping basically teaches your brain that leading is scary and dangerous, and gives you no practice placing gear and finding rests to do so. All of which is normally the biggest thing holding back trad ability.
The only lasting way to get confident at something that scares you is to get into the habit of facing it head-on, repeatedly. Finding ways to avoid your fears actively makes them grow.
> Quickest way to get your grade up is to start top roping,outdoors ... Getting up harder routes on top rope will build your confidence.
I'd disagree. The harder routes bit is correct but the top-rope thing, for most people, isn't. Far better leading on well-protected hard stuff. Top-roping basically teaches your brain that leading is scary and dangerous, and gives you no practice placing gear and finding rests to do so. All of which is normally the biggest thing holding back trad ability.
The only lasting way to get confident at something that scares you is to get into the habit of facing it head-on, repeatedly. Finding ways to avoid your fears actively makes them grow.
In reply to VPJB:
What is being a better climber ? (a sample of but a few facets)
Pulling harder on smaller holds for longer... or Laughing more, being safer, having more chats with random folks at the crag, recognising more species of bird/insect/plant, having better cake ,being more environmentally sensitive, enjoying big jugs ;0)
So really being a better climber is not just about moving on rock.
> Doesn't climbing more, pushing yourself and falling more (to reduce the fear of falling and therefore more likely to make the next move) etc make you climb better?
What is being a better climber ? (a sample of but a few facets)
Pulling harder on smaller holds for longer... or Laughing more, being safer, having more chats with random folks at the crag, recognising more species of bird/insect/plant, having better cake ,being more environmentally sensitive, enjoying big jugs ;0)
So really being a better climber is not just about moving on rock.
In reply to muppetfilter:
I agree. Completely correct.
> What is being a better climber ?
> Pulling harder on smaller holds for longer...
> Pulling harder on smaller holds for longer...
I agree. Completely correct.
In reply to douglas: I see Golf in your future ;0)
In reply to muppetfilter:
Oh for God's sake....
Yeh, and I'm a better sprinter than Usain Bolt, because last time I ran for a bus I had more fun than he did breaking the 100m world record.
Being good at something and enjoying/appreciating it are two different things.
> Pulling harder on smaller holds for longer... or Laughing more, being safer, having more chats with random folks at the crag, recognising more species of bird/insect/plant, having better cake ,being more environmentally sensitive, enjoying big jugs ;0)
>
> So really being a better climber is not just about moving on rock.
>
> So really being a better climber is not just about moving on rock.
Oh for God's sake....
Yeh, and I'm a better sprinter than Usain Bolt, because last time I ran for a bus I had more fun than he did breaking the 100m world record.
Being good at something and enjoying/appreciating it are two different things.
In reply to Robert Durran: Agreed - muppetfilter is being a muppet.
In reply to EeeByGum: Nice constructive comment there me-laddo.
Being grade obsessed is a little small minded if thats all you can see that climbing has to offer.
Why do you think people like sutty are still about ?
Being grade obsessed is a little small minded if thats all you can see that climbing has to offer.
Why do you think people like sutty are still about ?
In reply to muppetfilter: Just because people are asking about how to improve doesn't mean they're grade obsessed, and you are the only one who has assumed anyone contributing to this thread is.
In reply to muppetfilter:
Nice goading.
How about improving so you can climb more routes at any given crag or gain access to amazing crags you couldn't climb at until you hit a certain grade?
And I have LOADS of fun, eat cake, laugh at Malham - all of which I couldn't do until I was climbing 7a.
Nice goading.
How about improving so you can climb more routes at any given crag or gain access to amazing crags you couldn't climb at until you hit a certain grade?
And I have LOADS of fun, eat cake, laugh at Malham - all of which I couldn't do until I was climbing 7a.
In reply to VPJB:
And back on topic.....
I had a days coaching and it was very beneficial. All the good points have been covered already, pinpointing weaknesses I was unaware of (or hiding from) and improving confidence. in hindsight a lot of what I learnt I would possibly have read about eventually but at the time it properly kick started improvement for me.
If I had the cash it'd be something I'd engage in frequently.
And back on topic.....
I had a days coaching and it was very beneficial. All the good points have been covered already, pinpointing weaknesses I was unaware of (or hiding from) and improving confidence. in hindsight a lot of what I learnt I would possibly have read about eventually but at the time it properly kick started improvement for me.
If I had the cash it'd be something I'd engage in frequently.
In reply to muppetfilter:
The thing with people like you is that you all seem to take as an article of faith that challenging yourself and improving can't possibly be fun.
I love pushing myself. It doesn't matter what the grade is, it doesn't matter that I keep falling off and it doesn't matter that I might not get the route at the end of it. I love the process, gradually probing the route's secrets, sharing beta, discussing the finer points of clipping positions with partners, sharing belays, cheering each other on, falling off, the hopes and the disappointments, going away and getting stronger, having a project to work towards, idly daydreaming about the moves on it - it's brilliant fun. It's not just me, the people I meet at the crag and at the wall love all the same things about it.
You may not see the fun in it, which is fine. No one is saying that improvement is everything that climbing is about. No one is saying all of the ancilliary activities associated with being on the hill aren't fun, or might not improve your life in subtle, unquantifiable ways - we get it. We really do.
It's just that this notion that anyone who is at all interested in actually improving themselves, must be grade obsessed and somehow therefore empty joyless individuals who are only interested in reducing things to numbers; this notion really gets on my tits. It's just reverse-snobbish rationalisation from people who feel the need to denigrate someone else's hard work, presumably for the purpose of justifing their own lack of effort to themselves. Get over it.
The thing with people like you is that you all seem to take as an article of faith that challenging yourself and improving can't possibly be fun.
I love pushing myself. It doesn't matter what the grade is, it doesn't matter that I keep falling off and it doesn't matter that I might not get the route at the end of it. I love the process, gradually probing the route's secrets, sharing beta, discussing the finer points of clipping positions with partners, sharing belays, cheering each other on, falling off, the hopes and the disappointments, going away and getting stronger, having a project to work towards, idly daydreaming about the moves on it - it's brilliant fun. It's not just me, the people I meet at the crag and at the wall love all the same things about it.
You may not see the fun in it, which is fine. No one is saying that improvement is everything that climbing is about. No one is saying all of the ancilliary activities associated with being on the hill aren't fun, or might not improve your life in subtle, unquantifiable ways - we get it. We really do.
It's just that this notion that anyone who is at all interested in actually improving themselves, must be grade obsessed and somehow therefore empty joyless individuals who are only interested in reducing things to numbers; this notion really gets on my tits. It's just reverse-snobbish rationalisation from people who feel the need to denigrate someone else's hard work, presumably for the purpose of justifing their own lack of effort to themselves. Get over it.
In reply to muppetfilter:
I am grade obsessed, Doesnt mean I dont enjoy everything else climbing has to offer.
I am grade obsessed, Doesnt mean I dont enjoy everything else climbing has to offer.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Thanks! You are probably the first person to say that to me on here!
I think I might read a bit too much of 9/10 climbers though....
James
Thanks! You are probably the first person to say that to me on here!
I think I might read a bit too much of 9/10 climbers though....
James
In reply to VPJB:
Two responses spring to mind: it depends on the coach and it depends on you. If you're open minded, really want
to improve and are willing to put in the efort then yes, it's definitely worth it.
I had a coaching session a few years back from Dave Macleod and it was definitely worth the money.
Analysis of your strengths and weaknesses in climbing style and the feedback after the session, as
has already been mentioned by others, was excellent and extensive.
More recently I've been getting coaching from Mark McGowan at "Reach Climbing" and he's been as good,
albeit in a different way. Motivation and bespoke training programme advice are his forte. Both very good coaches,
both worth the money IMO.
But to get the full benefit from a coach, you do have to trust them and do what they tell you to do.
> Just wondering what people think to coaching? Is it worth paying for?
Two responses spring to mind: it depends on the coach and it depends on you. If you're open minded, really want
to improve and are willing to put in the efort then yes, it's definitely worth it.
I had a coaching session a few years back from Dave Macleod and it was definitely worth the money.
Analysis of your strengths and weaknesses in climbing style and the feedback after the session, as
has already been mentioned by others, was excellent and extensive.
More recently I've been getting coaching from Mark McGowan at "Reach Climbing" and he's been as good,
albeit in a different way. Motivation and bespoke training programme advice are his forte. Both very good coaches,
both worth the money IMO.
But to get the full benefit from a coach, you do have to trust them and do what they tell you to do.
In reply to VPJB:
never had any 'proper' coaching in climbing but have in running and swimming and it was invaluable.
i did however go dry tooling a couple of months ago with a top UK winter climber and the advice i got in the day we climbed about technique, route management (breaking it down into sections/planning clips etc) and equipment was awesome. i would have happily paid good money for it!!!
another important factor to improving (no matter what the sport) i feel is surrounding yourself with people who are better than you. you'll be amazed how much harder you try when you dont want someone to think your sh*t!
never had any 'proper' coaching in climbing but have in running and swimming and it was invaluable.
i did however go dry tooling a couple of months ago with a top UK winter climber and the advice i got in the day we climbed about technique, route management (breaking it down into sections/planning clips etc) and equipment was awesome. i would have happily paid good money for it!!!
another important factor to improving (no matter what the sport) i feel is surrounding yourself with people who are better than you. you'll be amazed how much harder you try when you dont want someone to think your sh*t!
In reply to plexiglass_nick: The thing about people like me is... you dont know me or my history or who I climb with now and have climbed and worked with.
I never actually said pushing and improving arent very positive core facets of climbing, improving and helping others to improve is a very rewarding thing. I was alluding to the sentiment that improving is not the ONLY thing that climbing has to give. I had my best year of climbing grade wise at the age of 34 some 18 years after I started climbing. I also took someone for their first trip to a wall on sunday.
Your last wee paragraph rant hints at your need for adoration and respect for your hard work and it's somewhat like a child sat in a sandpit waiting for mummys aproval on a sandcastle. If you dont do it for yourself and do do it to be better than others then maybe its not my issue but your own.
I never actually said pushing and improving arent very positive core facets of climbing, improving and helping others to improve is a very rewarding thing. I was alluding to the sentiment that improving is not the ONLY thing that climbing has to give. I had my best year of climbing grade wise at the age of 34 some 18 years after I started climbing. I also took someone for their first trip to a wall on sunday.
Your last wee paragraph rant hints at your need for adoration and respect for your hard work and it's somewhat like a child sat in a sandpit waiting for mummys aproval on a sandcastle. If you dont do it for yourself and do do it to be better than others then maybe its not my issue but your own.
In reply to VPJB: One coaching session is probably worth 100hours of trial and error. A good coach can see from a distance what mistakes you are making and correct them. He'll then suggest when you should have another session based on your personal aims, abiliies and timeschedule.
Eg It would be pointless to have a weekly coach if you climb weekly and are only interested in looking at the wildlife and climbing with your mates.
Eg It would be pointless to have a weekly coach if you climb weekly and are only interested in looking at the wildlife and climbing with your mates.
In reply to muppetfilter:
"Being grade obsessed is a little small minded if thats all you can see that climbing has to offer."
If you're interested in trying to understand the difference between chasing numbers and improving then have a read of this blog post.
http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2010_04_01_archive.html
Climbing isn't just about getting to the top either (for me anyway) the satisfaction of giving something your all and temporarily failing is brilliant too. Then going away, or having a rest and trying to figure out why you're going wrong is brilliant (for me).
For me, one of the most satisfying feelings (for me) ever can is the feeling of finally doing a move/ route/ boulder problem after hours/ days/ years of trying to learn and understand the ingredients needed to climb it.
A contradictory post?
Anyway, there is a great difference between improving so you can say you climb a higher number and improving because you enjoy the process,feelings and the feelings that arise from attacking a weakness.
James
"Being grade obsessed is a little small minded if thats all you can see that climbing has to offer."
If you're interested in trying to understand the difference between chasing numbers and improving then have a read of this blog post.
http://davemacleod.blogspot.com/2010_04_01_archive.html
Climbing isn't just about getting to the top either (for me anyway) the satisfaction of giving something your all and temporarily failing is brilliant too. Then going away, or having a rest and trying to figure out why you're going wrong is brilliant (for me).
For me, one of the most satisfying feelings (for me) ever can is the feeling of finally doing a move/ route/ boulder problem after hours/ days/ years of trying to learn and understand the ingredients needed to climb it.
A contradictory post?
Anyway, there is a great difference between improving so you can say you climb a higher number and improving because you enjoy the process,feelings and the feelings that arise from attacking a weakness.
James
In reply to muppetfilter:
Not really. If people were not obsessed with their performance, there would be no experts at anything. No one would be able to run 100m in less than 10 seconds, Premiership football would be a bit like watching the Sunday league, and the hardest climbing route would be VS.
> Being grade obsessed is a little small minded if thats all you can see that climbing has to offer.
Not really. If people were not obsessed with their performance, there would be no experts at anything. No one would be able to run 100m in less than 10 seconds, Premiership football would be a bit like watching the Sunday league, and the hardest climbing route would be VS.
In reply to jkarran:
That always used to be my view too until recently. I suspect we have had similar apprenticeships at climbing though, being that when we started to get keen we were in the fortunate position of climbing with some very good climbers. I imagine if your group of partners is people who are happy to bumble along at HS/VS/whatever (and I imply no criticism of them by using the term bumble) then it could be very difficult to make moves up the grades. In that scenario a coach could be just the ticket. In fact I'd say that a fingerboard and a coaching session probably cost a similar amount and in terms of rapid results for a low to mid grade climber looking to improve I suspect that the coaching session would be by far the better value option.
There seems to be a strange mentality (that I was, and to an extent still am party to) that climbing is "above" coaching and people are generally resistant to the concept (annecdotal evidence suggests this becomes less the case the closer you get to London). I would personally consider providing coaching services if I thought I could make a living doing it. I am immodest enough to state that I think I'd be quite good at it but I don't think there is a viable market for the service right now. Which is a shame, as I might have to get a proper job....
> (In reply to VPJB)
>
> [...]
>
> Don't know. I've always suspected not but that's just me, my circumstances, my view.
>
>
> [...]
>
> Don't know. I've always suspected not but that's just me, my circumstances, my view.
>
That always used to be my view too until recently. I suspect we have had similar apprenticeships at climbing though, being that when we started to get keen we were in the fortunate position of climbing with some very good climbers. I imagine if your group of partners is people who are happy to bumble along at HS/VS/whatever (and I imply no criticism of them by using the term bumble) then it could be very difficult to make moves up the grades. In that scenario a coach could be just the ticket. In fact I'd say that a fingerboard and a coaching session probably cost a similar amount and in terms of rapid results for a low to mid grade climber looking to improve I suspect that the coaching session would be by far the better value option.
There seems to be a strange mentality (that I was, and to an extent still am party to) that climbing is "above" coaching and people are generally resistant to the concept (annecdotal evidence suggests this becomes less the case the closer you get to London). I would personally consider providing coaching services if I thought I could make a living doing it. I am immodest enough to state that I think I'd be quite good at it but I don't think there is a viable market for the service right now. Which is a shame, as I might have to get a proper job....
In reply to muppetfilter:
right, well no one has said that it is, so why derail the thread with your utterly fatuous comment
in response to a quite reasonable question as to the value of coaching? (To get a reaction, being the obvious answer) Presumably no one needs coaching on eating cake.
Also, the point of hard work in the context of climbing is that it is rewarding in and of itself, that is the whole point of the rant.
Sorry to the thread for derailing it further.
> improving and helping others to improve is a very rewarding thing. I was alluding to the sentiment that improving is not the ONLY thing that climbing has to give
right, well no one has said that it is, so why derail the thread with your utterly fatuous comment
> Pulling harder on smaller holds for longer... or Laughing more, being safer, having more chats with random folks at the crag, recognising more species of bird/insect/plant, having better cake ,being more environmentally sensitive, enjoying big jugs ;0)
> So really being a better climber is not just about moving on rock.
in response to a quite reasonable question as to the value of coaching? (To get a reaction, being the obvious answer) Presumably no one needs coaching on eating cake.
Also, the point of hard work in the context of climbing is that it is rewarding in and of itself, that is the whole point of the rant.
Sorry to the thread for derailing it further.
In reply to Nik Jennings:
Now you're just talking nonsense! As an on the side job I think you'd quickly develop a good little earner from that though you'd probably have to travel a good way south.
I totally agree that it's a good investment for some people which is why I added those caveats.
The three main negative factors for me are I hate spending money, I can scrounge excellent advice for free from folk like your good self and I'm not focussed/disciplined enough to make full use of the advice anyway.
Fancy some sport when it eventually stops dripping?
jk
> (In reply to jkarran)
> Which is a shame, as I might have to get a proper job....
> Which is a shame, as I might have to get a proper job....
Now you're just talking nonsense! As an on the side job I think you'd quickly develop a good little earner from that though you'd probably have to travel a good way south.
I totally agree that it's a good investment for some people which is why I added those caveats.
The three main negative factors for me are I hate spending money, I can scrounge excellent advice for free from folk like your good self and I'm not focussed/disciplined enough to make full use of the advice anyway.
Fancy some sport when it eventually stops dripping?
jk
In reply to Nik Jennings:
Excellent points.
Anecdotal evidence suggests the supply of good-quality unofficial coaching diminishes as you approach London whereas the level of disposable income increases.
I think you would be. Move to London!
In reply to some people: don't be coy, name your coaches and tell us what they did for you.
Excellent points.
> annecdotal evidence suggests this becomes less the case the closer you get to London.
Anecdotal evidence suggests the supply of good-quality unofficial coaching diminishes as you approach London whereas the level of disposable income increases.
> I would personally consider providing coaching services if I thought I could make a living doing it. I am immodest enough to state that I think I'd be quite good at it but I don't think there is a viable market for the service right now. Which is a shame, as I might have to get a proper job....
I think you would be. Move to London!
In reply to some people: don't be coy, name your coaches and tell us what they did for you.
In reply to flaneur:
ok fair enough...
I've been on a coaching holiday with Katherine Schirrmacher and Steve McClure - they covered the whole gamut of climbing coaching but the stuff I found most personally useful was the tactics of redpoint and hard onsight days, where you would pick a project and they would help you work through your plan for how best to approach it. Lots of it is stuff that you can read on paper or the web and think 'I know that' but working a plan through with someone and seeing first hand the benefits (and also seeing someone else apply it at a high level and seeing it work for them) are something that can't be done out of a book IMHO. Also stylistic technical stuff like learning to recognise that there is a difference between the optimal style of movement for a boulder problem and the optimum way you would move if you were doing that exact same move as the crux on a route. Aspects of climbing which are very difficult to put on paper and really need to be seen demonstrated. I did my best redpoint to date that trip but lots that I learned I am still trying to apply to my climbing over a year later - I didn't quite break a new grade onsighting that trip but feel like I broke a plateau with it this year as a direct result of things I learned on that trip.
I recently had a movement coaching session with Johnny Dawes. Totally different, this is quite difficult to verbalise succinctly but is all about listening to the configurations of holds that make up body positions, and how to use your body to best make use of what there is. What exactly dynamic movement is, what it's for and how to use it with some lateral thinking to accomplish moves that you really wouldn't be able to pull off statically - it gives you the potential to fine tune how your body moves through space by listening to feedback from previous attempts or visualisations. He basically starts where the movement chapter in the Self Coached Climber or 9/10 Climbers leaves off. More than anything I think he gets you developing your sense of body awareness and spatial perception. Very abstract but potentially makes for a real paradigm shift in how you think about climbing movement.
I'm considering follow up coaching sessions with both.
> In reply to some people: don't be coy, name your coaches and tell us what they did for you.
ok fair enough...
I've been on a coaching holiday with Katherine Schirrmacher and Steve McClure - they covered the whole gamut of climbing coaching but the stuff I found most personally useful was the tactics of redpoint and hard onsight days, where you would pick a project and they would help you work through your plan for how best to approach it. Lots of it is stuff that you can read on paper or the web and think 'I know that' but working a plan through with someone and seeing first hand the benefits (and also seeing someone else apply it at a high level and seeing it work for them) are something that can't be done out of a book IMHO. Also stylistic technical stuff like learning to recognise that there is a difference between the optimal style of movement for a boulder problem and the optimum way you would move if you were doing that exact same move as the crux on a route. Aspects of climbing which are very difficult to put on paper and really need to be seen demonstrated. I did my best redpoint to date that trip but lots that I learned I am still trying to apply to my climbing over a year later - I didn't quite break a new grade onsighting that trip but feel like I broke a plateau with it this year as a direct result of things I learned on that trip.
I recently had a movement coaching session with Johnny Dawes. Totally different, this is quite difficult to verbalise succinctly but is all about listening to the configurations of holds that make up body positions, and how to use your body to best make use of what there is. What exactly dynamic movement is, what it's for and how to use it with some lateral thinking to accomplish moves that you really wouldn't be able to pull off statically - it gives you the potential to fine tune how your body moves through space by listening to feedback from previous attempts or visualisations. He basically starts where the movement chapter in the Self Coached Climber or 9/10 Climbers leaves off. More than anything I think he gets you developing your sense of body awareness and spatial perception. Very abstract but potentially makes for a real paradigm shift in how you think about climbing movement.
I'm considering follow up coaching sessions with both.
In reply to flaneur:
"In reply to some people: don't be coy, name your coaches and tell us what they did for you."
Neil Gresham and Steve Golley in Fontainebleau. I arrived as a 17 year old, strong, wall bred climber who had bouldered a little outdoors.
Day one - they put everyone on a thin slab and got us to climb it. After lots of foot slips I was able to understand just how important it is to place your feet accurately outside. They got me to place my feet accurately on the holds, first go. My footwork quickly improved, but then didn't continue to improve after the holiday as I didn't continue to practice what had been preached to me.
Several days in they revealed another weaknesses, my tactics. Now I understand that this was a weakness which really held back my ability to learn to climb well. I was failing to think about what I would do before and after I climbed. This is a quote from my trip report that I received after via email.
"I hope you don’t mind us saying but you really didn’t seem to engage your brain today. You have so much talent and potential but it will go entirely wasted if you don’t focus on sequence-reading and general tactics. There is no excuse for pulling on and asking your spotters where the holds are. "
Admittedly, I've only just started to understand just how much of a difference this is. Reading Dave Macleod's blog has helped alot, along with 9/10 climbers. But I still feel like it would improve the hardest moves I can do massively over time.
The last line of the report sums up what my major weakness was:
"Your mental game is well behind your physical one. You have to maintain a higher level of awareness both before and during climbing, otherwise you will keep repeating the same mistakes."
SG and NG were very effective and efficient at revealing my major weaknesses and helping me develop them.
I'm planning on getting some trad coaching from Adrian Berry next year.
James
"In reply to some people: don't be coy, name your coaches and tell us what they did for you."
Neil Gresham and Steve Golley in Fontainebleau. I arrived as a 17 year old, strong, wall bred climber who had bouldered a little outdoors.
Day one - they put everyone on a thin slab and got us to climb it. After lots of foot slips I was able to understand just how important it is to place your feet accurately outside. They got me to place my feet accurately on the holds, first go. My footwork quickly improved, but then didn't continue to improve after the holiday as I didn't continue to practice what had been preached to me.
Several days in they revealed another weaknesses, my tactics. Now I understand that this was a weakness which really held back my ability to learn to climb well. I was failing to think about what I would do before and after I climbed. This is a quote from my trip report that I received after via email.
"I hope you don’t mind us saying but you really didn’t seem to engage your brain today. You have so much talent and potential but it will go entirely wasted if you don’t focus on sequence-reading and general tactics. There is no excuse for pulling on and asking your spotters where the holds are. "
Admittedly, I've only just started to understand just how much of a difference this is. Reading Dave Macleod's blog has helped alot, along with 9/10 climbers. But I still feel like it would improve the hardest moves I can do massively over time.
The last line of the report sums up what my major weakness was:
"Your mental game is well behind your physical one. You have to maintain a higher level of awareness both before and during climbing, otherwise you will keep repeating the same mistakes."
SG and NG were very effective and efficient at revealing my major weaknesses and helping me develop them.
I'm planning on getting some trad coaching from Adrian Berry next year.
James
In reply to VPJB: It is interesting that some posters have referred to coaching in sports such as tennis / athletics / golf etc, where people who are currently at the very top of their respective games are coached, and presumably benefit from it. I just wondered if any climbers who are currently pushing the envelope are coached themselves and if not, why not?
In reply to DH3631:
I think its fairly common on the continent. I think that the british teams and people like that get coached too, although I'm happy to be corrected.
I've not yet tried any, but my initial thoughts ran along similar lines to some here, in that I figured I knew how to redpoint and that was most of what they would teach me. I'm now of the opinion, having known more people who have done it and heard more feedback, that its probably something I would benefit from - help me pick up on the weaknesses that I've actually got (as opposed to the ones I think i have, which may not be the same thing) and help me shift the stubborn ones that I'm otherwise having trouble budging.
I think its fairly common on the continent. I think that the british teams and people like that get coached too, although I'm happy to be corrected.
I've not yet tried any, but my initial thoughts ran along similar lines to some here, in that I figured I knew how to redpoint and that was most of what they would teach me. I'm now of the opinion, having known more people who have done it and heard more feedback, that its probably something I would benefit from - help me pick up on the weaknesses that I've actually got (as opposed to the ones I think i have, which may not be the same thing) and help me shift the stubborn ones that I'm otherwise having trouble budging.
In reply to VPJB: It's all a bit triathlon though, isn't it? As in very moderate performers thinking that spending money on pointy hats/disc wheels/coaches will make up for doing the hard work. I've no idea whether being "taught" climbing works (can't imagine it'll do any harm) but when I were a lad you'd just have got laughed at - however I used to watch and listen to good climbers and how they went about things avidly. But I was never any good - would I have been any better if I'd had some lessons? To be honest bumbling around at e3/e4 I doubt it - because at that level it's not that marginal, is it? But I've never sport climbed to even a moderate standard, where I think it might make more of a difference.
But I have a mate who got into tri just because he wanted to do an iron man - which he did in under 10 hours, and the rest of the tri club he joined simply couldn't believe he didn't pay someone to coach him.
But I have a mate who got into tri just because he wanted to do an iron man - which he did in under 10 hours, and the rest of the tri club he joined simply couldn't believe he didn't pay someone to coach him.
In reply to andy:
Well surely it depends what your weakness is. If the main thing that holds you back is that you back off every time you get above the clip but you are in denial about it, and it takes paying a coach to get you to realise this and address it, then yes coaching is going to be very much like a magic bullet (though arguably the hard work is still ahead of you).
Similarly you see people every time you go to the wall who aren't afraid of putting in the hard work and are all over the campus board, but their real weakness is shite footwork and the fact their shoes are full of holes. I think in that instance splashing out on a coach to tell you it like it is, and then buying some new shoes and spending an hour learning footwork drills will probably improve their performance virtually overnight and would be cheap at the price.
If you can learn and/or be taught skills in other movement sports, why not climbing? No one would attempt to learn a martial art by trial and error, for example - if you suggested it you would equally get laughed at. It's purely a cultural thing, not a question of whether or not it works.
I suspect that most coaches can expect a 'bounce' coaching most climbers for the first time, as most climbers do not push to the edge of their physical or mental performance. ie. if you persuade a climber who usually climbs VS or F6b but never falls off that they really can climb E1 or F6c+ if they try a bit harder, then quite often you can get an immediate improvement as a committed mental approach is worth a good couple of grades IMHO. I think you could learn this without a coach if you are motivated enough and prepared to push yourself until you fall off, but the strong social motivation of having your climbing hero holding your ropes and shouting 'COME ON' at you is quite effective at putting you in that zone.
> It's all a bit triathlon though, isn't it? As in very moderate performers thinking that spending money on pointy hats/disc wheels/coaches will make up for doing the hard work.
Well surely it depends what your weakness is. If the main thing that holds you back is that you back off every time you get above the clip but you are in denial about it, and it takes paying a coach to get you to realise this and address it, then yes coaching is going to be very much like a magic bullet (though arguably the hard work is still ahead of you).
Similarly you see people every time you go to the wall who aren't afraid of putting in the hard work and are all over the campus board, but their real weakness is shite footwork and the fact their shoes are full of holes. I think in that instance splashing out on a coach to tell you it like it is, and then buying some new shoes and spending an hour learning footwork drills will probably improve their performance virtually overnight and would be cheap at the price.
> I've no idea whether being "taught" climbing works (can't imagine it'll do any harm) but when I were a lad you'd just have got laughed at - however I used to watch and listen to good climbers and how they went about things avidly. But I was never any good - would I have been any better if I'd had some lessons? To be honest bumbling around at e3/e4 I doubt it - because at that level it's not that marginal, is it?
If you can learn and/or be taught skills in other movement sports, why not climbing? No one would attempt to learn a martial art by trial and error, for example - if you suggested it you would equally get laughed at. It's purely a cultural thing, not a question of whether or not it works.
I suspect that most coaches can expect a 'bounce' coaching most climbers for the first time, as most climbers do not push to the edge of their physical or mental performance. ie. if you persuade a climber who usually climbs VS or F6b but never falls off that they really can climb E1 or F6c+ if they try a bit harder, then quite often you can get an immediate improvement as a committed mental approach is worth a good couple of grades IMHO. I think you could learn this without a coach if you are motivated enough and prepared to push yourself until you fall off, but the strong social motivation of having your climbing hero holding your ropes and shouting 'COME ON' at you is quite effective at putting you in that zone.
In reply to EeeByGum:
>If people were not obsessed with their performance, there would be no experts at anything.
Been reading this thread and had to jump in. Obsession with the grade alone is sterile, being obsessed with certain moves can be understood.
Go back a year or so and read Andy Farnell's comments at giving up climbing because he was not getting up harder routes so had got as good as he could. At least he was talked out of selling all his gear and is now back on the crags again working those holds.
Muppetfilter and plexiglass seem to like doing similar things from their profiles, perhaps they should read them to learn a bit about each other, they would get on great at the crag I think.
>If people were not obsessed with their performance, there would be no experts at anything.
Been reading this thread and had to jump in. Obsession with the grade alone is sterile, being obsessed with certain moves can be understood.
Go back a year or so and read Andy Farnell's comments at giving up climbing because he was not getting up harder routes so had got as good as he could. At least he was talked out of selling all his gear and is now back on the crags again working those holds.
Muppetfilter and plexiglass seem to like doing similar things from their profiles, perhaps they should read them to learn a bit about each other, they would get on great at the crag I think.
In reply to VPJB:
Oh I'd LOVE some coaching. But there are so many things that I want to learn/don't know that I doubt one session would be cost effective. A whole series of regular coaching sessions - now that would be awesome.
Oh I'd LOVE some coaching. But there are so many things that I want to learn/don't know that I doubt one session would be cost effective. A whole series of regular coaching sessions - now that would be awesome.
In reply to VPJB: I would consider coaching to improve my grade. This is not an ego thing it's more to do with making more new climbs available to me. I have climbed for 45 years and can safely declare that I have done most worthwhile routes in England and Wales up to an including E3. I dislike repeating although as I get older this is less of a problem as my memory fades.
Indoors I seem to have hit a plateau of 6b+ and cannot get beyond it to enable me to be able to climb 7a sport and E4 trad. I'm one of those fortunate some might think unfortunate souls who climbs the same grade on trad as I do sport. This in itself is possibly part of the problem.
Anyone got Neil Greshams web page?
Al
Indoors I seem to have hit a plateau of 6b+ and cannot get beyond it to enable me to be able to climb 7a sport and E4 trad. I'm one of those fortunate some might think unfortunate souls who climbs the same grade on trad as I do sport. This in itself is possibly part of the problem.
Anyone got Neil Greshams web page?
Al
In reply to plexiglass_nick and James:
Thanks for the insights. Anyone else prepared to be specific?
I think a coach could be useful for me and I'd pay the going rate for good advice. I have some climbing experience and have had plenty of unofficial coaching. Some gains from coaching people describe I think I put into practice already, so I need to be convinced I will not be learning to suck eggs.
Thanks for the insights. Anyone else prepared to be specific?
I think a coach could be useful for me and I'd pay the going rate for good advice. I have some climbing experience and have had plenty of unofficial coaching. Some gains from coaching people describe I think I put into practice already, so I need to be convinced I will not be learning to suck eggs.
In reply to flaneur:
There are lots of accounts on quite a few of the well known coaches websites from clients which show just how effective they can be. I'd be prepared to bet that a session with a good coach would help you a lot. Adrian Berry even puts a guarantee that if you don't go home having not learnt anything then he won't charge you for it. Do you think he would do that unless he had faith that he can teach you a lot?
James
There are lots of accounts on quite a few of the well known coaches websites from clients which show just how effective they can be. I'd be prepared to bet that a session with a good coach would help you a lot. Adrian Berry even puts a guarantee that if you don't go home having not learnt anything then he won't charge you for it. Do you think he would do that unless he had faith that he can teach you a lot?
James
As many seemed to of said it is personal..
For me I would rather not have any coaching, I like to read books, talk to friends at the wall or the crag that alone will help with your climbing , did for me..
I like to learn a technique then go off and use it , but then I do put a lot of time in.
a coaching session might be better if you were being coached in ways of training, eating , learning the best ways to train, learning to use finger boards..... I see this being better than someone just showing you how to climb, but even then a good book covers this really well..
so for me I would say no , spend the money on a few books and extra climbing time or a fingerboard (if you dont have one)
just my thoughts...
For me I would rather not have any coaching, I like to read books, talk to friends at the wall or the crag that alone will help with your climbing , did for me..
I like to learn a technique then go off and use it , but then I do put a lot of time in.
a coaching session might be better if you were being coached in ways of training, eating , learning the best ways to train, learning to use finger boards..... I see this being better than someone just showing you how to climb, but even then a good book covers this really well..
so for me I would say no , spend the money on a few books and extra climbing time or a fingerboard (if you dont have one)
just my thoughts...
In reply to AndyE9:
Strangely I think those are some of the things most able to be learned from reading and therefore paying for someone to explain them during coaching sessions wouldn't be the best use of a coach's time.
For me the benefits of coaching fall into two categories. The first is the one-off learning phase, where the coach can identify weaknesses and work with a climber to help address them. In my experience very few climbers seem to have an accurate view of what they need to work on to improve. For example, if it takes a coach to convince someone that building yet more finger strength won't help them in their quest to lead as hard as they top-rope then it would have been time and money well spent. Inspiring people to go away and work on what they have learnt falls into this category as well, and it's fair to say that hearing something from Dave MacLeod will usually have more impact than hearing exactly the same thing from your mate.
The second category is that of continued monitoring and assistance, where a coach can help with continued motivation as well as fine-tuning programmes to adapt to changing circumstances.
The vast majority of adult climbing coaching comes into the first category, probably for mainly financial reasons, but also still as a result of climbing having traditionally been a coach-less sport. Some walls around the country are definitely changing this for younger climbers though, albeit I'm guessing mainly in group coaching sessions rather than 1:1. Attitudes are shifting too, and I would expect to see a gradual increase in acceptance of ongoing coaching support, particularly in London.
> a coaching session might be better if you were being coached in ways of training, eating , learning the best ways to train, learning to use finger boards...
Strangely I think those are some of the things most able to be learned from reading and therefore paying for someone to explain them during coaching sessions wouldn't be the best use of a coach's time.
For me the benefits of coaching fall into two categories. The first is the one-off learning phase, where the coach can identify weaknesses and work with a climber to help address them. In my experience very few climbers seem to have an accurate view of what they need to work on to improve. For example, if it takes a coach to convince someone that building yet more finger strength won't help them in their quest to lead as hard as they top-rope then it would have been time and money well spent. Inspiring people to go away and work on what they have learnt falls into this category as well, and it's fair to say that hearing something from Dave MacLeod will usually have more impact than hearing exactly the same thing from your mate.
The second category is that of continued monitoring and assistance, where a coach can help with continued motivation as well as fine-tuning programmes to adapt to changing circumstances.
The vast majority of adult climbing coaching comes into the first category, probably for mainly financial reasons, but also still as a result of climbing having traditionally been a coach-less sport. Some walls around the country are definitely changing this for younger climbers though, albeit I'm guessing mainly in group coaching sessions rather than 1:1. Attitudes are shifting too, and I would expect to see a gradual increase in acceptance of ongoing coaching support, particularly in London.
In reply to James Oswald:
I do very little in the UK now as we're based in Ariège in France most of the time. We find there's a fair bit of coaching interest from many of our guests, most of which are British climbers, although we haven't been advertising courses as such until we have more accommodation finished.
We're always happy to coach in the UK though if the dates can fit in with when we're likely to be there anyway.
I do very little in the UK now as we're based in Ariège in France most of the time. We find there's a fair bit of coaching interest from many of our guests, most of which are British climbers, although we haven't been advertising courses as such until we have more accommodation finished.
We're always happy to coach in the UK though if the dates can fit in with when we're likely to be there anyway.
In reply to VPJB:
In order to 'improve' and be a better climber (and i am talking only in terms of climbing harder grades) you're going to have to stretch whatever your physical and mental limitations are.
Obvious so far right?
I seperate 'training' from 'performance' btw; at whatever discipline (sport, trad, bouldering, indoors etc)
So to improve Physically - you're going to have to train harder and more often, so you can succeed at a higher performance grade. Strength/Power and Endurance, via various disciplines...
To improve mentally - you're going to have to nurture and ingrain technique and overcome fears and false beliefs, which will require large amounts of climbing and possibly a complete mindset overhaul.
The amount of failure you'll have to endure depends on how fast you want to advance..
ie... VS (average) - E3 (pre-elite) in a year = lots of failing (possibly serious type) & some success
or... VS - E3 in ten years = possibly never failing
The worst thing about the whole deal is that a person can be their own worst hinderence by being completely unable to acknowledge or address their own weaknesses.....
Anyway, the point is.... I'm sure coaching can help with all of the above, in far more advanced and knowledgable detail and depth than I ever will....
So, my answer is....
> Just wondering what people think to coaching? Is it worth paying for?
> Doesn't climbing more, pushing yourself and falling more (to reduce the fear of falling and therefore more likely to make the next move) etc make you climb better?
> Doesn't climbing more, pushing yourself and falling more (to reduce the fear of falling and therefore more likely to make the next move) etc make you climb better?
In order to 'improve' and be a better climber (and i am talking only in terms of climbing harder grades) you're going to have to stretch whatever your physical and mental limitations are.
Obvious so far right?
I seperate 'training' from 'performance' btw; at whatever discipline (sport, trad, bouldering, indoors etc)
So to improve Physically - you're going to have to train harder and more often, so you can succeed at a higher performance grade. Strength/Power and Endurance, via various disciplines...
To improve mentally - you're going to have to nurture and ingrain technique and overcome fears and false beliefs, which will require large amounts of climbing and possibly a complete mindset overhaul.
The amount of failure you'll have to endure depends on how fast you want to advance..
ie... VS (average) - E3 (pre-elite) in a year = lots of failing (possibly serious type) & some success
or... VS - E3 in ten years = possibly never failing
The worst thing about the whole deal is that a person can be their own worst hinderence by being completely unable to acknowledge or address their own weaknesses.....
Anyway, the point is.... I'm sure coaching can help with all of the above, in far more advanced and knowledgable detail and depth than I ever will....
So, my answer is....
> Just wondering what people think to coaching?
I reckon it's probably a good thing (depending who the coach is of course!!)> Is it worth paying for?
Depends how shit you are now... Where and how fast you want to get to (ie What untapped potential exists - without going into fairyland) and how much money you have> Doesn't climbing more, pushing yourself and falling more (to reduce the fear of falling and therefore more likely to make the next move) etc make you climb better?
Yes. But so do lots of other things, and you might not be capable of seeing & implementing them by yourself In reply to Cragrat Rich:
Ain't necessarily so. In 1974 I went from VS to E3 in 3 or 4 months without (as I recall) a single fall. Of course, I may have been lucky...
Mick
> ie... VS (average) - E3 (pre-elite) in a year = lots of failing (possibly serious type) & some success
Ain't necessarily so. In 1974 I went from VS to E3 in 3 or 4 months without (as I recall) a single fall. Of course, I may have been lucky...
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
Or very very good!
> (In reply to Cragrat Rich)
>
> [...]
>
> Of course, I may have been lucky...
>
> [...]
>
> Of course, I may have been lucky...
Or very very good!
In reply to Cragrat Rich:
" lots of failing (possibly serious type) "
What do you mean by "possibly serious type"?
James
" lots of failing (possibly serious type) "
What do you mean by "possibly serious type"?
James
In reply to James Oswald:
Where the Onsight is 'blown' of course
> (In reply to Cragrat Rich)
> " lots of failing (possibly serious type) "
>
> What do you mean by "possibly serious type"?
> James
> " lots of failing (possibly serious type) "
>
> What do you mean by "possibly serious type"?
> James
Where the Onsight is 'blown' of course
In reply to andy:
I respectfully disagree that coaching can be lumped in with purchasing equipment.
> (In reply to VPJB) It's all a bit triathlon though, isn't it? As in very moderate performers thinking that spending money on pointy hats/disc wheels/coaches
I respectfully disagree that coaching can be lumped in with purchasing equipment.
In reply to Cragrat Rich:
James is a very serious type. I've seen photographic evidence.
Mind you, I've also seen photographic evidence of him looking a right tw*t.
James is a very serious type. I've seen photographic evidence.
Mind you, I've also seen photographic evidence of him looking a right tw*t.
In reply to VPJB: Definately worthwhile in the long run, I had a problem with my mental attitude towards my climbing. I was letting outside influences effect my climbing, thus making me fail.
I went to see a life coach to get thing'sinto perspective, it's given me a more positive outlook on life and my climbing.
I went to see a life coach to get thing'sinto perspective, it's given me a more positive outlook on life and my climbing.
In reply to VPJB:
A coach (for a different sport) once told me 'Practice makes Permanent'.
What he was getting at is that simply practicing reinforces everything - good and bad technique. So climbing more isn't necessarily going to improve what you are doing. Training needs to be focussed on specific needs.
A coach should give you an objective view of your current skills and highlight specific areas that you can train on to assist you to climb better.
David
> Doesn't climbing more, pushing yourself and falling more etc make you climb better?
A coach (for a different sport) once told me 'Practice makes Permanent'.
What he was getting at is that simply practicing reinforces everything - good and bad technique. So climbing more isn't necessarily going to improve what you are doing. Training needs to be focussed on specific needs.
A coach should give you an objective view of your current skills and highlight specific areas that you can train on to assist you to climb better.
David
In reply to VPJB: In my experience if you climb with some one better than yourself you progress faster than say to people of the same grade.I know people who climb together and they never seem to progress!
In reply to VPJB:
I personally have not had paid for coaching but have found that by bouldering at local wall in an evening when it is busy there is an abundance of better climbers who when asked are more than happy to help out with technique or tell you where you are going wrong. This is probably the cheapest way of making some improvements but does involve asking and chatting to others and not shying away in embarrassment. I've yet to approach someone better (and lots are better) who wasn't more than happy to help out, give advise and point in right direction. Most people seem happy enough to stop their own climbing to help less experienced.
I personally have not had paid for coaching but have found that by bouldering at local wall in an evening when it is busy there is an abundance of better climbers who when asked are more than happy to help out with technique or tell you where you are going wrong. This is probably the cheapest way of making some improvements but does involve asking and chatting to others and not shying away in embarrassment. I've yet to approach someone better (and lots are better) who wasn't more than happy to help out, give advise and point in right direction. Most people seem happy enough to stop their own climbing to help less experienced.
In reply to firefighteralex:
The only problem with relying on that approach is you become susceptible to the people who are quite (but not very) good, who will spray whack beta at you, generally in the format of telling you loudly what *they* did and therefore you should do it that way, (oddly enough these tend to be the sort of people most keen to volunteer unsolicited advice) and you may pick up their bad habits.
You also rely on people to have the self awareness to be able to recognise why they can do something and you can't even when you put your hands and feet in the same place (other than just 'you're not pulling hard enough') - generally you expect a coach to have enough experience trying to solve problems from another person's perspective (so to take into account limitations of strength, different body shape etc.) to be able to be objective about it, that is what you are paying them for.
I would argue that though you can get advice for free at the climbing wall, sometimes you do get what you pay for. Clearly there are genuinely good technical climbers who are insightful enough to recognise why what they are doing works, and articulate enough to communicate it in a way which makes sense for you - but the signal to noise is not necessarily high. You need to have the experience to recognise when you are being given duff advice, and that requires being able to analyse why something works for someone else, which is a valuable skill in itself that is patently coachable.
The number of times you see beginners being enthusiastically but ineptly coached by others who have clearly only been climbing a couple of months longer. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people work out technical sequences for themselves but then fixate on doing it badly when someone strong but not very good comes along and is all 'no, you don't want to do it like that, just put your foot here and throw for it' and then give up when that doesn't work for them.
The only problem with relying on that approach is you become susceptible to the people who are quite (but not very) good, who will spray whack beta at you, generally in the format of telling you loudly what *they* did and therefore you should do it that way, (oddly enough these tend to be the sort of people most keen to volunteer unsolicited advice) and you may pick up their bad habits.
You also rely on people to have the self awareness to be able to recognise why they can do something and you can't even when you put your hands and feet in the same place (other than just 'you're not pulling hard enough') - generally you expect a coach to have enough experience trying to solve problems from another person's perspective (so to take into account limitations of strength, different body shape etc.) to be able to be objective about it, that is what you are paying them for.
I would argue that though you can get advice for free at the climbing wall, sometimes you do get what you pay for. Clearly there are genuinely good technical climbers who are insightful enough to recognise why what they are doing works, and articulate enough to communicate it in a way which makes sense for you - but the signal to noise is not necessarily high. You need to have the experience to recognise when you are being given duff advice, and that requires being able to analyse why something works for someone else, which is a valuable skill in itself that is patently coachable.
The number of times you see beginners being enthusiastically but ineptly coached by others who have clearly only been climbing a couple of months longer. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen people work out technical sequences for themselves but then fixate on doing it badly when someone strong but not very good comes along and is all 'no, you don't want to do it like that, just put your foot here and throw for it' and then give up when that doesn't work for them.
In reply to VPJB: Why go to school when you can just teach yourself..? Why get textbooks when you could just work hard and derive all of mathematics and science on your own? Why care about history when you can just live and experience every possible mistake and learn all of the lessons on your own?
Those are all equally silly questions. Of course it's possible to improve without coaching - but how much longer would it take? That's the reason people go for coaching - they want to improve, and it's just *a lot* quicker for someone more experienced to point out your mistakes than to find them on your own.
Pretty daft question to ask in my mind, and I don't see what you're getting at with the second part of your comment:
"Doesn't climbing more, pushing yourself and falling more (to reduce the fear of falling and therefore more likely to make the next move) etc make you climb better?" - obviously it does, but does that somehow mean that coaching won't help you improve even more..? Why push yourself and fall more to get better? Why not just climb more? How come you've decided those are the things that help you to improve and not coaching?
Those are all equally silly questions. Of course it's possible to improve without coaching - but how much longer would it take? That's the reason people go for coaching - they want to improve, and it's just *a lot* quicker for someone more experienced to point out your mistakes than to find them on your own.
Pretty daft question to ask in my mind, and I don't see what you're getting at with the second part of your comment:
"Doesn't climbing more, pushing yourself and falling more (to reduce the fear of falling and therefore more likely to make the next move) etc make you climb better?" - obviously it does, but does that somehow mean that coaching won't help you improve even more..? Why push yourself and fall more to get better? Why not just climb more? How come you've decided those are the things that help you to improve and not coaching?
In reply to DosacV:
As the man said, "Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it."
Mick
> Why care about history when you can just live and experience every possible mistake and learn all of the lessons on your own?
As the man said, "Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it."
Mick
In reply to firefighteralex: I personally have not had paid for coaching but have found that by bouldering at local wall in an evening when it is busy there is an abundance of better climbers who when asked are more than happy to help out with technique or tell you where you are going wrong.
This is all good and helpful but its not coaching as such. Yes a coach will offer advice on solving specific boulder problems but their overall aim should be to discern themes in your climbing performance (relative to your grade) and give you guidance on correcting deficiencies. That'll be £25.
This is all good and helpful but its not coaching as such. Yes a coach will offer advice on solving specific boulder problems but their overall aim should be to discern themes in your climbing performance (relative to your grade) and give you guidance on correcting deficiencies. That'll be £25.
In reply to VPJB:
Maybe a better question/answer might be a cost/benifit analysis as clearly coaching will help you improve. i.e what will benifit you more a couple of coaching sessions, better/lighter gear, having the money to get away climbing more often, climbing wall membership, buying training books, home fingerboard, internet reading, running shoes etc etc.
I suspect everyone has a different answer to the question depending on there own short/long term goals, weakness, disposable income, partners, time and motivation. Chances are you would do a lot better working out where you fit with each of these and then working out what can be done to improve as a result.
Ewan
Maybe a better question/answer might be a cost/benifit analysis as clearly coaching will help you improve. i.e what will benifit you more a couple of coaching sessions, better/lighter gear, having the money to get away climbing more often, climbing wall membership, buying training books, home fingerboard, internet reading, running shoes etc etc.
I suspect everyone has a different answer to the question depending on there own short/long term goals, weakness, disposable income, partners, time and motivation. Chances are you would do a lot better working out where you fit with each of these and then working out what can be done to improve as a result.
Ewan
In reply to The third:
I'd probably say a good training book (not Horst) gives the best value per £ - but that will probably encourage you to get a new pair of climbing shoes.. Running shoes aren't going to help much.
There are however some priceless and free internet sites which offer good value. But ultimately, you need to figure out what's going wrong with your climbing - a coach will do this quickly but a book can be a great catalyst for this.
James
I'd probably say a good training book (not Horst) gives the best value per £ - but that will probably encourage you to get a new pair of climbing shoes.. Running shoes aren't going to help much.
There are however some priceless and free internet sites which offer good value. But ultimately, you need to figure out what's going wrong with your climbing - a coach will do this quickly but a book can be a great catalyst for this.
James
In reply to James Oswald:
Maybe if there 20 stone. The best thing for them to do would be get burning that fat asap! Maybe they are training for the alps?
Maybe if there 20 stone. The best thing for them to do would be get burning that fat asap! Maybe they are training for the alps?
In reply to Kemics:
That was one of the most sensible posts I've read for a long time.
That was one of the most sensible posts I've read for a long time.
In reply to James Oswald: Hi James sorry this is late getting back to you, what I learned from a life coach is how to approach certain decisions in my life, if say for example you decided to postpone an appointment which would directly effect the outcome of some one else in a negative way, how would it then make you feel.
Would it make you feel "unreliable", or your in control of your life more for not wanting to do something which a colleague or friend wanted you to do. That of course is just one example of making a choice for you and not for pleasing some one else.
Which by all accounts is what I was doing, pleasing some one else and not focusing on myself or my own goals. Admittedly James it's not for everyone but it makes you realise who your doing it for.
Those decisions have now made me realise that you can push yourself, and not worry about the outcome.
Hope this helps.
Would it make you feel "unreliable", or your in control of your life more for not wanting to do something which a colleague or friend wanted you to do. That of course is just one example of making a choice for you and not for pleasing some one else.
Which by all accounts is what I was doing, pleasing some one else and not focusing on myself or my own goals. Admittedly James it's not for everyone but it makes you realise who your doing it for.
Those decisions have now made me realise that you can push yourself, and not worry about the outcome.
Hope this helps.
In reply to Mick Ward:
That's rubbish. I didn't learn from History and they let me drop it in year 9.
> (In reply to DosacV)
>
>
> As the man said, "Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it."
>
>
>
> As the man said, "Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it."
>
That's rubbish. I didn't learn from History and they let me drop it in year 9.
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