UKC

Struggling a bit here, can someone point me in the right direction

Still trying to get my head around the use of tag lines. Seems to me that you buy a thin single rope (9.2 etc) and then 60m of 6 or 7mm tag line.

The fun comes when you have to abb on them. Tie them together using a standard EDK (alligned so the thicker rope traps the thin rope but it doesn't seem to matter that much). I think you now have a number of choices;

1. Rig it so that the thin rope passes through the anchor (Maillon). Tie knots in ends of rope (goes without saying that you tie individual knots and not both ropes together!) Abseil down, worry a lot about thinner rope slipping through belay device quicker. Get down as far as you can. Set anchor, pull through on thicker rope. Thus if you have a 'rope stuck' problem, worse case of having to cut the rope, at least you have full rope in your hands. Disadvantage being that all your weight is on thinner rope - not too much of a problem.

2. Rig it so that thicker rope is passing through anchor (Maillon). If thinner rope does slip through device quicker and therefore slip through anchor then the knot should be stopped by being unable to pass through maillon. Disadvantage being that you are pulling on thinner rope, harder, and if you have rope stuck issues then you may be left with just thin rope if you have to cut. Or only a thin rope to prussic back up on (see one of my previous posts)

3. Rig thicker rope through anchor. Tie a fig 8 loop in the end of thicker rope right after you have passed it through the anchor. Clip this to the thicker rope on the other side of the anchor using a screw gate carabina. You basically create a locked loop. Tie your thinner tag line into the carabina clipped to the thicker rope. Throw both ropes down cliff. Abseil on thicker rope only. When you get to bottom, pull on tag line. This will pull the fig 8 loop down towards you. The disadvantages of this are the same as Point 2 and also that you are trying to pull a big fig 8 and carabina down a crag and it'll want to stick in every crack going.

Is this about right? Is there a better option that I have missed.

Point 1 seems scary on the whole rope slippage point.
Point 2 seems destined for stuck rope/cut rope disaster
Point 3 seems to encouraging the rope to get stuck and make your life hell on multiple Alpine abs.

I really like the idea of climbing Alpine routes with just one rope as it will speed things up (moving together , ropework, switching to carrying coils etc) and save weight. But I'm concerned that I've missed the correct way to ab with a tag Line.

In reply to Jim Walton:

3.

Or buy a pair of 7mm-ish twins

In reply to nniff: Really, I put that one in as an aside! Just seams soooo likely that the knot. loop & Krab will catch on everything.

In reply to Jim Walton:

IMHO it's not a cure-all and needs care how and when you use it. My biggest concern is what happens if it gets stuck and you have nothing but armfuls of under-weight rope to play with

Personally, if saving weight were the name of the game I'd go for a pair of the new twin/halves for the best of both worlds.

In reply to Jim Walton:

I wouldn't go for either of the first two as you are completely reliant on the thin tag line not breaking whether you abseil down it or the main line. OK a 6 or 7mm line should be fine to abseil down (if you ignore the fact that it will be very slick) but should there be any sharp edges then it won't last long!

The third option is what I've seen done and would choose myself for either a tag line or if one rope had been damaged and I still needed a full length ab I'd just try to use a tidy knot and pull it down carefully.

In reply to Jim Walton:

This is useful in case you haven;t come across it:
http://www.canyonwiki.com/wiki/index.php/%27biner_block

I've tried the tag line system because I prefer climbing on single ropes.

But I really didn't feel comfortable with it -- just felt like there was too much to go wrong. If I climbed more regularly, such as a few times a week, then I might move to it as I'd have the chance to practice until it's second nature.

So after much testing I now stick to 7.8mm doubles. More faff when climbing for sure and marginally extra weight, but on the plus side it is second nature and almost foolproof.

Figures for thought (using Beal ropes as an example):

1. TAG LINE SOLUTION:
60m Beal Joker 9.1mm single rope + 60m Beal 7mm static cord = 5040g

2. DOUBLE ROPE SOLUTION:
60m Beal Ice Line 8.1mm half ropes x2 = 5040g

3. SINGLE+HALF ROPE COMPROMISE:
60m Beal Joker 9.1mm single rope + 60m Beal Ice Line 8.1mm half rope = 5700g

4. SINGLE+TWIN ROPE COMPROMISE:
60m Beal Joker 9.1mm single rope + 60m Beal Ice Twin 7.7mm twin rope = 5400g

If weight saving is the priority and I absolutely insisted on climbing on a single rope, I'd go for option 4 over option 1 as you have a much more versatile and safer system with a weight penalty of just 360g.

In reply to maresia: seems that there is less to this tag line than meets the eye. Perhaps it is not the furure after all.

In reply to Jim Walton: I have a pair of Marlow 8.4mm twins for sale - one unused and in packing, the other used once for cragging. Email if you want to know more and see photos.

In reply to chopin-smith:
you forgot
5. TWIN ROPE SOLUTION:
60m Beal Ice Twin 7.7mm twin ropes x2 = 4440g
...which is a kilo lighter than everything else.

In reply to chopin-smith:

What about:

6. LIGHTER TAG LINE SOLUTION
60m Mammut Serenity single rope + 60m 5.5mm dyneema cord = 4320g

Only problem I can see with this setup is you can't simul ab (unless anyone knows of a belay device that'll hold on 5.5mm dyneema) so the descent takes twice as long. And it can be a bitch to pull through (taking a Kong Duck can help). But it is very light.

In reply to Toerag:

True, good point!

In reply to horn:

Good point. From what I've read 5.5mm is a real bitch to pull and not worth even considering unless you just have just one ot two abseils. I personally found 7mm to be bad enough.

What I use personally is 2x 60m Millet Alpine light half ropes = 4920g
A snifter lighter than 2x Beal ice lines.

In reply to Jim Walton:

These systems seem to get asked about a lot on these forums but when it comes to it how much weight will to save over a double 8.6mm x 50m system? Abseiling is already about the most dangerous part of alpine climbing in terms of accidents, especially as you are usually doing it when knackered or retreating in bad weather so do you really need an extra complication? Add to this that having two ropes gives you some redundancy in case one get damaged... Apparently some experienced climbers do use the system but I imagine they have moved to it when they knew the pros and cons from experience. It's up to you of course but to save the weight of a few weeks of weight watching before the trip it always seems to me to be a risky idea.

PS. Try abbing on really thin ropes - ice lines for example - before buying them, I had the experience once using a friend's ropes on a descent involving three free hanging abbs in a row and with the descender I had there wasn't much friction, some tight holding was needed!

In reply to Jim Walton:



I've tried both the above methods; method 2 feels a lot more confidence-inspiring and is what I usually do (even though of course the 7mm cord I use is plenty strong enough). It's hard work pulling on the tag line though, and without gloves quite uncomfortable. As to the risk of the tagline getting stuck, I would be hesitant to use a tagline where this is likely to be a problem.





I've thought about doing this, but never much fancied pulling a krab down



Yep, and no I don't think so.

As to those suggesting the use of twin ropes (this always happens when someone mentions taglines), the main advantage is not weight saving but being able to use single-rope techniques. Twin ropes aren't that useful if, for example, one needs to jumar a pitch.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


This is a very good point. I often put two krabs on my belay device to rap if I'm using a tagline and thin lead line to increase the friction a bit.

In reply to horn: It isn't really about saving weight but climbing on a single. And best when the only reason to ab is because it all goes a bit wrong, not when you know you are going to do 12 abs in a row.

One light solution is a half rope and a 4 or 5mm pull line.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Absolutely. I used an ATC to ab off on freezing Ice Line thickness ropes and it was close to disaster. Pumped holding on for dear life!
Bought a DMM Bugette shortly afterwards which copes better with very thin ropes.

In reply to Jim Walton:

I bring a 6mm tagline on certain alpine lines and use the third option in your list, the Carabiner Block (aka 'biner block). You certainly have to be aware of your abseiling path - in terms of knot eating potential - and be extremely careful in your pulling direction/method, but I've never had it get caught. The main reason to have such a tagline is either in case of emergency - meaning there is a wall where you don't intend to rap it, but it's wise to have the option in case something happens - or if you need to move especially light/fast to make the climb even possible. A tagline is light and packs a lot smaller than even a single twin (smaller follower's pack); plus being able to manage belay change-overs and general rope management is a lot easier with a single cord (especially when leading in blocks).

Realize that for alpine abs you are already looking for the descent path of least resistance no matter what rope system you use - twins, half, tagline, etc. It's just with a tagline system you need to be a lot more cognizant and suspicious of what could go wrong. Hence I will often traverse a good ways to find a clean line to abseil, will break longer abseils over uneven ground into shorter abs, and sometimes sacrifice a goat before heading out in the morning.

In reply to Jim Walton:

No 3 is a standard tech in caving , on a pull through trip with the rope as in No 3 you always have the option of climbing back up the ab rope if you run into problems on the pitch.

However, pull through anchors are stright-foward in caves and give very few problems ie drag. In the hills what you need is as little drag as possible.

So I leave a small maillon , pass the rope through and tie a knot to join the thinner line , no crab , just the knot against the maillon on the ab rope and ab. The rope pulls down much easier than with a back up crab and has no more to catch than a normal 2 rope ab.

Now here is the clever bit,( normal climbing , no cord ) if you are climbing on a single rope (50mts) and need to ab 35 mts . Tie on one end of the rope all the slings , chalk bag cords , boot laces , quick draws , etc until the rope plus slings are 70 mts , then find middle , set up as above , ab on rope side and pull down the other.