/ NEWS: Epicentre Offer Free Pegs For Lakeland Routes

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UKC News - on 07 Mar 2011
Epicentre Staff member Woody on Warrior (White Ghyll) E5 6a 1993, 5 kbThe Epicentre climbing shop in Ambleside have started an initiative that they hope will have a positive impact on Lakeland climbing.

"In an attempt to drive a new wave of activity in the fells we are offering replacement pegs to anyone who has been cleaning a route and needs to replace old and dangerous in situ gear..."

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=60807

willworkforfoodjnr - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to UKC News: Brilliant :)
Duncan Campbell - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to UKC News: Nice. This is a brilliant example of comercialism for good, the Epicentre is a successful, profitable business and that in tur pays for the re-equippng of new routes, Nice one guys!
Mattdevaal - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to UKC News:

Needlesports have been doing this for years.
As one of the guide book editor to the new edition of the Borrowdale guide (due no time soon)!
We have had pegs at our disposal for re-equipping old rotten pegs and for use on potential new routes. Some of the most active Climbers/ Crag cleaners in our area have also got access to the massive peg Arsenal that Needlesports have.
This is the same case for the new Eastern guide that will be published this year and a few pegs will have already been replaced before the new guide comes out.
If you know of any dangerous pegs in the Borrowdale area then please let the guys at Needlesports know or post a comment on the FRCC Website.
Thanks
Michael Ryan - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to mdevaal:

It's great that someone else is doing it as well.

Let's keep the ball rolling, give it more publicity, get more people involved, get routes that are cleaned reported, hope for good weather - and it is all gold.

Don't you think?

Maybe the Logbook system at UKC can be involved here - as routes get cleaned and/or pegs replaced the entry for the route could reflect this.

Thank you EpiCentre and Needlesports and anyone who puts the effort in.


Mick
SCC - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:
> (In reply to mdevaal)
>
>
> Maybe the Logbook system at UKC can be involved here - as routes get cleaned and/or pegs replaced the entry for the route could reflect this.
>
> Thank you EpiCentre and Needlesports and anyone who puts the effort in.
>
>
> Mick

Mick,

Would this be something that people would just add to the existing description, or are you thinking of a seperate field?

Either way, I think it's a good idea that could be used to report on the state of a route/in situ gear regrdless of where in the country it is.

Si
Michael Ryan - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to SCC:

...and highlighted and filtered in some way. Alan and Nick are the database experts.

I'll ask.
Paul Crusher R - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to UKC News: I think it may need be good to make it precisely clear what replacement pegging is. I know it does seem obvious, but as this is being made 'public' knowledge to the UKC masses, there could easily be confusion for the naieve, 'dry tooling at millstone?'. Lakes new wave trad, good to see.
Michael Ryan - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to Paul R:
> (In reply to UKC News) I know it does seem obvious, but as this is being made 'public' knowledge to the UKC masses

UKC masses? You mean climbers who read UKC, like yourself. Good call I think but I am also sure that someone like Woody at the EpiCentre will make it absolutely clear what the pegs are to be used for.

Watch Woody in full flow about replacement gear ethics here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GueAutOmhgQ

Paul Crusher R - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:
> (In reply to Paul R)
> [...]
>
> UKC masses? You mean climbers who read UKC, like yourself. Good call I think but I am also sure that someone like Woody at the EpiCentre will make it absolutely clear what the pegs are to be used for.
>
> Watch Woody in full flow about replacement gear ethics here:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GueAutOmhgQ

UKC masses? You mean climbers who read UKC... yep, or UKC massive, UKC hood, however you like it.
Im sure he will, good point.
Mike Raine - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to UKC News:

Forgive me if I don't share your enthusiasm for pegs on mountain rock. IMHO it would be preferable to see as many of these routes as possible climbed clean.

Surely 'a man who would place a peg on mountain rock would shoot a fox' is I think the original quote from pre UKCers outrage about Germans placing pegs on Tryfan. (I'm sure someone on here can correct the quote if I've got it wrong!)
In reply to Mike Raine:

Broadly I am with you on this but there are exceptions I feel that justify pegs.

One of the pegs we replaced last year with the efforts of a kind volunteer was the peg on the top pitch of the Totalitarian (E1) on Raven Crag, Thirlmere which had snapped about a year before. It protects the crux move of the climb which is 5c. Without the peg, the 5c move is protected only by a very poor wire and the route would probably deserve E3. I suspect it would get very few ascents as an E3 whereas as a classic E1 with a hard crux move it is deservedly popular.

And on many of the harder Lakeland climbs there is little else in the way of protection, though pegs are always the last resort.
Ed F - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to Stephen Reid:

Without the peg, the 5c move is protected only by a very poor wire and the route would probably deserve E3.

Just playing devils advocate here, but conceptually that isn't so different from chipping a 6b move on what otherwise would be an E1 to give a more consistent character and thus make it more popular.

I don't disagree with pegs in certain situations (not that it matters one bit what I agree or disagree with) but there must be better reasons for doing it than making a climb more consistent.
GPN - on 07 Mar 2011
In reply to UKC News:
Isn't it about time we took a slightly more long term view on in-situ gear in the Lakes and either let the old pegs rot out/break or even actually remove them? To replace one set of rusty and un-reliable pegs with another, that will again become untrustworthy in a few years time seems a little short sighted.
Personally I'd much rather see a clean and straight-forward ethic in the area, such as on grit, than trying to maintain the present situation where the gear on many routes in the Lakes is in a totally unknown state. Obviously some routes will become much harder and more serious with this approach but to me it would seem to be a price worth paying.
Ssshhh - on 09 Mar 2011
Right, this is just totally daft. So everyone acknowledges all these pegs which are getting replaced are necessary? Everyone understands that they will corrode away in a few short years? Most people understand it is very hard to accurately assess the strength of a peg when you have no idea of its age, the placement its in, the materials it is made from, etc? Everyone appreciates that it is even harder when in extremis?

So why not place a nice resin bolt instead? Or just don't bother.

Pegs are great for the person who places them, in fact just like bolts if they're in good placements. For everyone else pegs vary from godsend to cruel temptress.

As Stephen Reid points out the state of a peg on a route can change it by two grades. Surely, as Mike and others point out, this is unsustainable? Or at best, as I say at the top, daft?
Franco Cookson on 09 Mar 2011
In reply to Stephen Reid:


Whilst I am generally not against people using pegs on FAs, if they so desire, I think it's a dangerous game to pin the grade of a route upon the presence of a peg. If a peg makes an E3 turn into an E1, then that implies the peg is being trusted effectively by its self to hold a fall.

I have reservations about any one piece of gear, however bomber, being regarded as enough to declare the route safe. Let's remember, even bolts can rip.
James Oswald - on 09 Mar 2011
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Well said Franco. I completely agree.
You do give some useful comment when you stop pissing about. ;)
James
James Edwards - on 09 Mar 2011
In reply to Mick Ryan - Senior Editor - UKC:

> Watch Woody in full flow about replacement gear ethics here:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GueAutOmhgQ

That was a good link, i enjoyed watching it and found that i was nodding along to much of what Woody was saying. It looked like a healthy discussion. I live in the far North of Scotland and only climb in the Lakes once or twice a year but I am pleased to see people caring about the crags and the nature of the game.

I have several Ushba titanium pegs; these whilst very expensive they do not rust and could go some way to addressing the issue of the long term sustainability of the peg in a route. Last i heard was that Ushba or the importer or some such went belly up but there may be other manufacturers out there doing titanium pegs.

James e
franksnb - on 13 Mar 2011
In reply to UKC News:

maybe it would be best to place/clean pegs on lead/second.

it simplifies the information required to do the route to.

grade / n peg's size x1, x2.

however people will bang pegs in the wrong place and damage the route i suppose.

replacing pegs seems to lead down the bolting road (as they are (imo) more trustworthy for longer).

perhaps we shouldn't use pegs. perhaps if there is no trad gear it should be a sport route?



Michael Gordon - on 13 Mar 2011
In reply to UKC News:

I have to say I prefer the prevailing ethic in Scotland of not replacing old pegs. Let them rot or fall out and the grades change accordingly.
Dave Warburton - on 13 Mar 2011
In reply to Michael Gordon: But then routes will not get repeated and will be lost to the lichenous dankness of time.
Calum Nicoll - on 13 Mar 2011
In reply to UKC News: So, basically replace old and dangerous in situ gear with new and dangerous in situ gear.

smithaldo - on 16 Mar 2011
In reply to Calum Nicoll: its mainly dangerous BECAUSE it is old. If it is new, it is not dangerous, especially when placed by people who know what they are doing, which you clearly do not.
Exile - on 16 Mar 2011
In reply to Calum Nicoll: wondered when you'd turn up.

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