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just read the above- interesting thoughts on indian face. this caught my attention though:
"McLeod's ascent of Indian Face after extensive top rope practice is the least impressive so far"
did Dave Mac really practice to a greater extent than the other 3 who have climbed it?
gregor
"McLeod's ascent of Indian Face after extensive top rope practice is the least impressive so far"
did Dave Mac really practice to a greater extent than the other 3 who have climbed it?
gregor
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Who really cares. They all top roped it, so none of them are as impressive as they want to make out. not that I'd climb it like. But headpointing mountain trad routes is poor style. They should be left alone until someone has the balls to set off and see what happens!.
Who really cares. They all top roped it, so none of them are as impressive as they want to make out. not that I'd climb it like. But headpointing mountain trad routes is poor style. They should be left alone until someone has the balls to set off and see what happens!.
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Seems like rather a harsh judgement. Is there any more context? I suppose standards have moved on and Dave McLeod is probably capable of climbing much harder technical moves. In that sense the repeat could be considered less impressive since he's further inside his comfort zone (or perhaps just less far outside it since I'm not sure Indian Face could ever be considered a comfortable place to be!).
Seems like rather a harsh judgement. Is there any more context? I suppose standards have moved on and Dave McLeod is probably capable of climbing much harder technical moves. In that sense the repeat could be considered less impressive since he's further inside his comfort zone (or perhaps just less far outside it since I'm not sure Indian Face could ever be considered a comfortable place to be!).
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
It seemed pretty impressive to me.
Mick
> "McLeod's ascent of Indian Face after extensive top rope practice is the least impressive so far"
It seemed pretty impressive to me.
Mick
In reply to snoop6060: taking such ethics we'd never have had indian face in the first place. I think it was ok for him to originally headpoint it.
In reply to Luke90:
yes, i'd not considered that angle
it didnt read like that though, though i could be completely misjudging it
overall the article was a really interesting read, much more so than most interviews with climbers
yes, i'd not considered that angle
it didnt read like that though, though i could be completely misjudging it
overall the article was a really interesting read, much more so than most interviews with climbers
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
I think this is extremely presumptuous of Dawes to think McLeod set out to climb Indian Face to impress. The fact that climbing is personal and with such a dangerous route "making it safe" with as much practice and soul searching is probably the only way for most of us. At least he was honest about his methods and reasoning.
Climbing to impress is like eating at a fancy restaurant because you want a shit.
I think this is extremely presumptuous of Dawes to think McLeod set out to climb Indian Face to impress. The fact that climbing is personal and with such a dangerous route "making it safe" with as much practice and soul searching is probably the only way for most of us. At least he was honest about his methods and reasoning.
Climbing to impress is like eating at a fancy restaurant because you want a shit.
In reply to jamesgreenfield:
Dawes pre-practised moves on abseil, a rather different approach to the all out tope rope.
Maybe he's a bit miffed as Dave M dressed it down a bit, maybe sanitised it somewhat with his reported breezing up it. The other two repeaters somewhat extenuated the myth by widely reporting how shit scary it was...
Dawes pre-practised moves on abseil, a rather different approach to the all out tope rope.
Maybe he's a bit miffed as Dave M dressed it down a bit, maybe sanitised it somewhat with his reported breezing up it. The other two repeaters somewhat extenuated the myth by widely reporting how shit scary it was...
In reply to snoop6060:
Neither could I. Dave Macleod broke his foot some years ago and has trouble standing on small edges as I understand it. This would make Indian Face difficult for him although I note he didn't use that as an excuse when he first decided to give it a miss though.
I do wonder about comments like these. Have you ever on sighted a route at or near the limit of your ability where failure may occur due to breaking holds and have terminal consequences? If so, feel free to criticise. If not....
While someone may will do a ground up ascent one day I think it's a lot less likely that they'd do it ground up without an abseil inspection at least.
Personally I don't have much of an issue with headpoints. If you don't alter the nature of the climb then it really doesn't take much away from the route.
> (In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs)
>
> Who really cares. They all top roped it, so none of them are as impressive as they want to make out. not that I'd climb it like.
>
> Who really cares. They all top roped it, so none of them are as impressive as they want to make out. not that I'd climb it like.
Neither could I. Dave Macleod broke his foot some years ago and has trouble standing on small edges as I understand it. This would make Indian Face difficult for him although I note he didn't use that as an excuse when he first decided to give it a miss though.
> But headpointing mountain trad routes is poor style. They should be left alone until someone has the balls to set off and see what happens!.
I do wonder about comments like these. Have you ever on sighted a route at or near the limit of your ability where failure may occur due to breaking holds and have terminal consequences? If so, feel free to criticise. If not....
While someone may will do a ground up ascent one day I think it's a lot less likely that they'd do it ground up without an abseil inspection at least.
Personally I don't have much of an issue with headpoints. If you don't alter the nature of the climb then it really doesn't take much away from the route.
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: I'm afraid I haven't read the article but from the quote you have mentioned I think that the sentiment he (Dawes) expressed is a common one in trad climbing, and that is to try to improve the style of ascent with successive ascents. In my opinion he (Dawes) could make the point that it is the least impressive ascent thus far purely on the basis that it was made in 2010 rather than 1996, when the last previous ascent was made. It is natural to suppose that standards rise over time, and 14 years is a considerable amount of time. I love the way we're still talking about this route, it's like it's the holy grail or something.
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=53473
In reply to Mark Collins:
another fair point; though there was an implication in the quoted piece that it was the extent of Dave Mac's practice on top rope that led him to his opinion- is this a fair criticism? Did Dave TR it more than the others?
another fair point; though there was an implication in the quoted piece that it was the extent of Dave Mac's practice on top rope that led him to his opinion- is this a fair criticism? Did Dave TR it more than the others?
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Btw, 4 people have climbed it. Dawes, Dixon, Gresham, and recently Mcloed.
Btw, 4 people have climbed it. Dawes, Dixon, Gresham, and recently Mcloed.
In reply to Removed User:
If someone thinks a route is possibly terminal, they should jog on and look at another route. Its beyond them and they should accept it. They should not top rope it, claim a first ascent and even make up a pretend grade for the potential onsight. Its not that I am against top roping, its just that its just that, the first ascent is therefore a top roped ascent, leading it afterwards doesn't alter that fact.
> (In reply to Removed Usersnoop6060)
> [...]
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> I do wonder about comments like these. Have you ever on sighted a route at or near the limit of your ability where failure may occur due to breaking holds and have terminal consequences? If so, feel free to criticise. If not....
>
>
> I do wonder about comments like these. Have you ever on sighted a route at or near the limit of your ability where failure may occur due to breaking holds and have terminal consequences? If so, feel free to criticise. If not....
>
If someone thinks a route is possibly terminal, they should jog on and look at another route. Its beyond them and they should accept it. They should not top rope it, claim a first ascent and even make up a pretend grade for the potential onsight. Its not that I am against top roping, its just that its just that, the first ascent is therefore a top roped ascent, leading it afterwards doesn't alter that fact.
In reply to Removed User:....Personally I don't have much of an issue with headpoints. If you don't alter the nature of the climb then it really doesn't take much away from the route.
... i agree! aslong as you tell the truth about your accent then who gives a shit about 'ethics' if you enjoy it?
... i agree! aslong as you tell the truth about your accent then who gives a shit about 'ethics' if you enjoy it?
In reply to snoop6060:
y?
> If someone thinks a route is possibly terminal, they should jog on and look at another route. Its beyond them and they should accept it.
y?
From Extreme Rock: -
"in the wet summer of 1985 hard climbing on Cloggy was out of the reckoning, but already in dry spells during July, 1986, further probes are being made at The Great Wall. Johnny Dawes has twice climbed the route of Redhead's desiring on a top rope, pronounced it a lonely and sustained 6b, and jokingly called it the Headmaster's Wall. He is said now only to be awaiting a spell of dry weather".
He eventually climbed it in October of the same year.
If you ever get a chance, have a look at "E9 6C". It's a short documentery about Indian Face, with the viewpoints of Dawes and Redhead: Basically Dawes defends his ethics and Redhead says it should have been on-sighted no matter what the consequences might be.
There is also the side issue of "The Painting" thrown in for good measure.
I also think Dixon said to Redhead that he hadn't even got to the hard bit on Indian Face on his on-sight attempts and hinted that he would probably would have died if he had carried on. Redhead seemed to accept this as being part and parcel of climbing this particular route.
Apologies for the ramble!!!
"in the wet summer of 1985 hard climbing on Cloggy was out of the reckoning, but already in dry spells during July, 1986, further probes are being made at The Great Wall. Johnny Dawes has twice climbed the route of Redhead's desiring on a top rope, pronounced it a lonely and sustained 6b, and jokingly called it the Headmaster's Wall. He is said now only to be awaiting a spell of dry weather".
He eventually climbed it in October of the same year.
If you ever get a chance, have a look at "E9 6C". It's a short documentery about Indian Face, with the viewpoints of Dawes and Redhead: Basically Dawes defends his ethics and Redhead says it should have been on-sighted no matter what the consequences might be.
There is also the side issue of "The Painting" thrown in for good measure.
I also think Dixon said to Redhead that he hadn't even got to the hard bit on Indian Face on his on-sight attempts and hinted that he would probably would have died if he had carried on. Redhead seemed to accept this as being part and parcel of climbing this particular route.
Apologies for the ramble!!!
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
I dont get the "saving it for someone with the balls" bit,
the few people who can headpoint it doing so isnt exactly going to damage the route for future generations, or even ruin the mystery that much; unless you search out beta, all you'll know is that its doable but nails, which I'm sure you could have seen from the ground...
Sure I'd love to see someone onsight it, but until then, a headpoint is a damn good effort.
I dont get the "saving it for someone with the balls" bit,
the few people who can headpoint it doing so isnt exactly going to damage the route for future generations, or even ruin the mystery that much; unless you search out beta, all you'll know is that its doable but nails, which I'm sure you could have seen from the ground...
Sure I'd love to see someone onsight it, but until then, a headpoint is a damn good effort.
I think it simply comes down to the fact that Dawes is a natural genius, who moves on rock like no other, and Dave Macloed is exceptionally methodical and hard working. Dawes, like a lot of people, probably just sees Macleod boring to watch and listen to.
I have to admit I don't find Dave captivating to watch and he doesnt inspire me, I do however love his books and website and think it is admirable how enthusiastic he is about teaching others and making elite knowledge and practice accesible, and for that I admire him.
I have to admit I don't find Dave captivating to watch and he doesnt inspire me, I do however love his books and website and think it is admirable how enthusiastic he is about teaching others and making elite knowledge and practice accesible, and for that I admire him.
In reply to alx:
Surely its you who are being presumptuous, based purely on the Dawes quote in the OP? At no point in that OP does it say that Dawes thinks Macleod climbed it just to impress other people. As such, everything you said after this sentence is meaningless and distracting from the topic. Unless, of course, you have read the full article and know something that you're not telling the rest of us about??
Tony
> (In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs)
>
> "I think this is extremely presumptuous of Dawes to think McLeod set out to climb Indian Face to impress."
>
> "I think this is extremely presumptuous of Dawes to think McLeod set out to climb Indian Face to impress."
Surely its you who are being presumptuous, based purely on the Dawes quote in the OP? At no point in that OP does it say that Dawes thinks Macleod climbed it just to impress other people. As such, everything you said after this sentence is meaningless and distracting from the topic. Unless, of course, you have read the full article and know something that you're not telling the rest of us about??
Tony
In reply to Removed User:
" Have you ever on sighted a route at or near the limit of your ability where failure may occur due to breaking holds and have terminal consequences? If so, feel free to criticise."
Most climbers experience this on their first poorly protected VDiff. You don't have to be a magazine person to experience the limits...
" Have you ever on sighted a route at or near the limit of your ability where failure may occur due to breaking holds and have terminal consequences? If so, feel free to criticise."
Most climbers experience this on their first poorly protected VDiff. You don't have to be a magazine person to experience the limits...
In reply to alan moore:
Perhaps MacLeod should have offered that as a new grade Indian Face VDiff?
I think that is quite possibly the most spectacular dumbing down i've heard in a while. I think those experiences have very little in common.
I once got shot paint balling, i can totally empathize with people who landed on the d-day beaches
> (In reply to Eric9Points)
>
>
> Most climbers experience this on their first poorly protected VDiff. You don't have to be a magazine person to experience the limits...
>
>
> Most climbers experience this on their first poorly protected VDiff. You don't have to be a magazine person to experience the limits...
Perhaps MacLeod should have offered that as a new grade Indian Face VDiff?
I think that is quite possibly the most spectacular dumbing down i've heard in a while. I think those experiences have very little in common.
I once got shot paint balling, i can totally empathize with people who landed on the d-day beaches
In reply to alan moore:
Is there such a thing as a poorly protected vdiff? and even if there is, how bad would you have to be at placing gear on it for it to have anywhere near the same terminal consequences of indian face?
> (In reply to Eric9Points)
>
> Most climbers experience this on their first poorly protected VDiff. You don't have to be a magazine person to experience the limits...
>
> Most climbers experience this on their first poorly protected VDiff. You don't have to be a magazine person to experience the limits...
Is there such a thing as a poorly protected vdiff? and even if there is, how bad would you have to be at placing gear on it for it to have anywhere near the same terminal consequences of indian face?
In reply to tom290483:
There are lots of VDiffs with no gear at all that you'd probably die if you fell off.
There are lots of VDiffs with no gear at all that you'd probably die if you fell off.
In reply to tom290483:
Moonjelly, Reiff. No gear - broken legs, in the sea.
Can't quite see it up there with IF on a list of hard classics though!
Moonjelly, Reiff. No gear - broken legs, in the sea.
Can't quite see it up there with IF on a list of hard classics though!
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Maybe JD's just another one of those middle aged guys who's become a bit of a has been and wants to stay in the limelight. He can't make the news by doing the grades he once could, so resorts to coming out with contentious comments in the press and hitting the lecture circuit to scrape together a buck or two.
I'm not saying this is definitely the scenario JD is in....but it might be.
Maybe JD's just another one of those middle aged guys who's become a bit of a has been and wants to stay in the limelight. He can't make the news by doing the grades he once could, so resorts to coming out with contentious comments in the press and hitting the lecture circuit to scrape together a buck or two.
I'm not saying this is definitely the scenario JD is in....but it might be.
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Four ascents in 25 years - the route is either total rubbish or very hard.
Strikes me that only those who have climbed it are in a position to comment on the ethics of any of these ascents.
Four ascents in 25 years - the route is either total rubbish or very hard.
Strikes me that only those who have climbed it are in a position to comment on the ethics of any of these ascents.
In reply to philmorris:
Is it not around 7b+ ? Not a grade I climb but hardly hard by todays standards.Snappy rock, run out and with massive deck out potential is more likely to be the reason for so few ascents, or maybe its because it has become mythologised to the point that climbers are just shit scared by the mention of the name.
> (In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs)
> Four ascents in 25 years - the route is either total rubbish or very hard.
> Four ascents in 25 years - the route is either total rubbish or very hard.
Is it not around 7b+ ? Not a grade I climb but hardly hard by todays standards.Snappy rock, run out and with massive deck out potential is more likely to be the reason for so few ascents, or maybe its because it has become mythologised to the point that climbers are just shit scared by the mention of the name.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
An interesting comment. In climbing, there's the romantic inspiration, as epitomised by people like Dawes and, say, Seb Grieve. And there are people like Big Ron and Dave McLeod, who work hard at getting better and just get on with it. Both types dig deeper into themselves than we do and, for that, I find both equally inspiring. The romantics tend to be both more hard-working and more skilled at guaging risk than we might imagine. But, because they have an extra layer of 'lovable lunacy', understandably we find them more endearing.
By the way, didn't Ray Evans try a ground-up of Indian Face in 1967? If so, then hopefully he may have satisfied the more style sensitive among us.
Mick
> I have to admit I don't find Dave captivating to watch and he doesnt inspire me, I do however love his books and website and think it is admirable how enthusiastic he is about teaching others and making elite knowledge and practice accesible, and for that I admire him.
An interesting comment. In climbing, there's the romantic inspiration, as epitomised by people like Dawes and, say, Seb Grieve. And there are people like Big Ron and Dave McLeod, who work hard at getting better and just get on with it. Both types dig deeper into themselves than we do and, for that, I find both equally inspiring. The romantics tend to be both more hard-working and more skilled at guaging risk than we might imagine. But, because they have an extra layer of 'lovable lunacy', understandably we find them more endearing.
By the way, didn't Ray Evans try a ground-up of Indian Face in 1967? If so, then hopefully he may have satisfied the more style sensitive among us.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
Ray and Hank Pasquil.
> (In reply to Lupine Lacuna)
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> [...]
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>
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> By the way, didn't Ray Evans try a ground-up of Indian Face in 1967? If so, then hopefully he may have satisfied the more style sensitive among us.
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> Mick
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> [...]
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>
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> By the way, didn't Ray Evans try a ground-up of Indian Face in 1967? If so, then hopefully he may have satisfied the more style sensitive among us.
>
> Mick
Ray and Hank Pasquil.
In reply to tom290483:
Just how many different types of terminal consquences can you get?
> (In reply to alan moore)
> [...]
>
> Is there such a thing as a poorly protected vdiff? and even if there is, how bad would you have to be at placing gear on it for it to have anywhere near the same terminal consequences of indian face?
> [...]
>
> Is there such a thing as a poorly protected vdiff? and even if there is, how bad would you have to be at placing gear on it for it to have anywhere near the same terminal consequences of indian face?
Just how many different types of terminal consquences can you get?
In reply to tom290483:
Completely OT, but I'm a novice leader and I don't feel 'safe' on a vdiff - firstly, I'm not amazing at placing gear, and secondly (and equally importantly) I don't have much experience of assessing whether the gear I've got in is any good or not - I /think/ everything I've put in is bomber, but I know that I could have missed some obvious reason that it's useless. Whereas more experienced climbers (and particularly people on the level of MacLeod or Dawes) seem to be a lot happier to say 'that one's bomber, that one's marginal, that one I wouldn't tie my dog to'.
I'm not saying I've got the balls of someone like Dawes or Macleod - I'm pretty cautious even for a habitual bumbler - but I reckon that being gripped on a hard move above dodgy gear seems like an experience that stays the same as your standards for hard moves and dodgy gear improve...
All this is irrelevant, anyway. As far as I'm concerned a 900 lb gorilla can sleep where it likes and an E9 leader can try stuff on a top rope if they want.
> (In reply to alan moore)
> [...]
>
> Is there such a thing as a poorly protected vdiff? and even if there is, how bad would you have to be at placing gear on it for it to have anywhere near the same terminal consequences of indian face?
> [...]
>
> Is there such a thing as a poorly protected vdiff? and even if there is, how bad would you have to be at placing gear on it for it to have anywhere near the same terminal consequences of indian face?
Completely OT, but I'm a novice leader and I don't feel 'safe' on a vdiff - firstly, I'm not amazing at placing gear, and secondly (and equally importantly) I don't have much experience of assessing whether the gear I've got in is any good or not - I /think/ everything I've put in is bomber, but I know that I could have missed some obvious reason that it's useless. Whereas more experienced climbers (and particularly people on the level of MacLeod or Dawes) seem to be a lot happier to say 'that one's bomber, that one's marginal, that one I wouldn't tie my dog to'.
I'm not saying I've got the balls of someone like Dawes or Macleod - I'm pretty cautious even for a habitual bumbler - but I reckon that being gripped on a hard move above dodgy gear seems like an experience that stays the same as your standards for hard moves and dodgy gear improve...
All this is irrelevant, anyway. As far as I'm concerned a 900 lb gorilla can sleep where it likes and an E9 leader can try stuff on a top rope if they want.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Still can Mick! Hank regularly burns the young 'locals' off at brownstones!
> (In reply to Anonymous)
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> Aye, those Lancs lads could climb, all right.
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> Mick
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> Aye, those Lancs lads could climb, all right.
>
> Mick
Still can Mick! Hank regularly burns the young 'locals' off at brownstones!
In reply to snoop6060:
What if they need to clean it? Is that allowed? If all first ascents had top be onsighted, there'd be a lot fewer routes out there.
> (In reply to Eric9Points)
> [...]
>
> [...]
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> If someone thinks a route is possibly terminal, they should jog on and look at another route. Its beyond them and they should accept it. They should not top rope it, claim a first ascent and even make up a pretend grade for the potential onsight. Its not that I am against top roping, its just that its just that, the first ascent is therefore a top roped ascent, leading it afterwards doesn't alter that fact.
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> If someone thinks a route is possibly terminal, they should jog on and look at another route. Its beyond them and they should accept it. They should not top rope it, claim a first ascent and even make up a pretend grade for the potential onsight. Its not that I am against top roping, its just that its just that, the first ascent is therefore a top roped ascent, leading it afterwards doesn't alter that fact.
What if they need to clean it? Is that allowed? If all first ascents had top be onsighted, there'd be a lot fewer routes out there.
In reply to Mick Ward:
I remember people saying Seb wasn't really a very good climber - I know that sounds silly looking at his routes, but I guess in comparison to others doing similar grades - but rather that he just wanted it more than most. Hard Grit was great in that you could see how much he was struggling. Some very good climbers make it look easy - even though of course they are trying very hard - but Grieve using his knees etc. and making everything look as desperate as it undoubtedly is was very engaging. Does he climb at all now?
> In climbing, there's the romantic inspiration, as epitomised by people like Dawes and, say, Seb Grieve.
I remember people saying Seb wasn't really a very good climber - I know that sounds silly looking at his routes, but I guess in comparison to others doing similar grades - but rather that he just wanted it more than most. Hard Grit was great in that you could see how much he was struggling. Some very good climbers make it look easy - even though of course they are trying very hard - but Grieve using his knees etc. and making everything look as desperate as it undoubtedly is was very engaging. Does he climb at all now?
In reply to tom290483:
Brilliant! That's what we like to hear.
When Hank Pasquill did the FA of Goblin's Eyes Roof (Orchrist) at Almscliffe, a Yorkie mate of mine was watching. He said it was like 'Once Upon A Time in the West'.
Al Manson's subsequent account of losing the line, 'All Our Yesterdays', was a very graceful tribute to Hank Pasquill, as well as a marvellous send-up of Pete Kitson and himself (and, by extension, all of us and our little pretensions).
Mick
Brilliant! That's what we like to hear.
When Hank Pasquill did the FA of Goblin's Eyes Roof (Orchrist) at Almscliffe, a Yorkie mate of mine was watching. He said it was like 'Once Upon A Time in the West'.
Al Manson's subsequent account of losing the line, 'All Our Yesterdays', was a very graceful tribute to Hank Pasquill, as well as a marvellous send-up of Pete Kitson and himself (and, by extension, all of us and our little pretensions).
Mick
In reply to TobyA:
What you don't see from 'Hard Grit' was how hard Seb worked. He spent days, weeks, months, years on sport routes, giving it his all. Other people were far, far stronger but you admired Seb more because he was giving it everything he had - psychologically as well as physically.
Rightly he realised that by transferring the sport climbing power to grit and climbing at his limit in situations of utter peril, he could make a distinctive contribution - and he did.
For me, the prelude to the FA of Meshuga on 'Hard Grit' is very worrying indeed - guant, hollow-eyed... Fantastic that he did it but there's a sense of an end of the affair, time to move on.
He was at the Stoney reunion with the same glint in his eye and the same rapier wit. I'm sure he climbs - probably still a lot harder than us - but probably not in the same way.
Nobody can do death routes forever - else it ends in tears. Fulfilling though they may be, life has so much more to offer.
Mick
What you don't see from 'Hard Grit' was how hard Seb worked. He spent days, weeks, months, years on sport routes, giving it his all. Other people were far, far stronger but you admired Seb more because he was giving it everything he had - psychologically as well as physically.
Rightly he realised that by transferring the sport climbing power to grit and climbing at his limit in situations of utter peril, he could make a distinctive contribution - and he did.
For me, the prelude to the FA of Meshuga on 'Hard Grit' is very worrying indeed - guant, hollow-eyed... Fantastic that he did it but there's a sense of an end of the affair, time to move on.
He was at the Stoney reunion with the same glint in his eye and the same rapier wit. I'm sure he climbs - probably still a lot harder than us - but probably not in the same way.
Nobody can do death routes forever - else it ends in tears. Fulfilling though they may be, life has so much more to offer.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
Thanks Mick - that's exactly the impression I had gained reading profiles of him. I think I remember reading that one of his sports routes is called K3 - because for him doing it felt quite a lot harder than K2!
> What you don't see from 'Hard Grit' was how hard Seb worked. He spent days, weeks, months, years on sport routes, giving it his all.
Thanks Mick - that's exactly the impression I had gained reading profiles of him. I think I remember reading that one of his sports routes is called K3 - because for him doing it felt quite a lot harder than K2!
In reply to TobyA:
If I remember correctly (and I may not!) Seb was on K3 for three or four years (K4?) and it got repeated a couple of times shortly afterwards. So, of course, others could have done it pretty quickly. But nobody would - out of respect for his efforts.
Part of what makes climbing so special, for all of us.
Mick
If I remember correctly (and I may not!) Seb was on K3 for three or four years (K4?) and it got repeated a couple of times shortly afterwards. So, of course, others could have done it pretty quickly. But nobody would - out of respect for his efforts.
Part of what makes climbing so special, for all of us.
Mick
In reply to tom290483:
It's a proven fact of physics that acceleration due to gravity increases exponentionally with grade.
> (In reply to alan moore)
> [...]
>
> Is there such a thing as a poorly protected vdiff? and even if there is, how bad would you have to be at placing gear on it for it to have anywhere near the same terminal consequences of indian face?
> [...]
>
> Is there such a thing as a poorly protected vdiff? and even if there is, how bad would you have to be at placing gear on it for it to have anywhere near the same terminal consequences of indian face?
It's a proven fact of physics that acceleration due to gravity increases exponentionally with grade.
In reply to Mick Ward:
I thought that the line attempted by Ray and Hank was either what became pitch one of Midsummer Night's Dream or Wombits, could be wrong though. Also I thought it was early 1970s, around the time of Silly Arete and Curving Arete. Silly Arete is definitely 1970s because it's named after the Monty Python phrase for ending a sketch: "This sketch is getting very silly".
This would make Mick Fowler's Spreadeagle the first to attempt the right hand side of that wall.
How many onsight ascents has Master's Wall had? Not many and that is a couple of grades easier than IF.
ALC
I thought that the line attempted by Ray and Hank was either what became pitch one of Midsummer Night's Dream or Wombits, could be wrong though. Also I thought it was early 1970s, around the time of Silly Arete and Curving Arete. Silly Arete is definitely 1970s because it's named after the Monty Python phrase for ending a sketch: "This sketch is getting very silly".
This would make Mick Fowler's Spreadeagle the first to attempt the right hand side of that wall.
How many onsight ascents has Master's Wall had? Not many and that is a couple of grades easier than IF.
ALC
In reply to snoop6060:
Last climber I can think of that climbed and thought like that was Pete Whillance. A great on sighter of new routes in the Lakes, Wales and Gogarth back in the late 70's
> (In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs)
>
> Who really cares. They all top roped it, so none of them are as impressive as they want to make out. not that I'd climb it like. But headpointing mountain trad routes is poor style. They should be left alone until someone has the balls to set off and see what happens!.
>
> Who really cares. They all top roped it, so none of them are as impressive as they want to make out. not that I'd climb it like. But headpointing mountain trad routes is poor style. They should be left alone until someone has the balls to set off and see what happens!.
Last climber I can think of that climbed and thought like that was Pete Whillance. A great on sighter of new routes in the Lakes, Wales and Gogarth back in the late 70's
In reply to Al Evans: Sorry, I should have said on routes at the cutting edge at the time.
In reply to Kemics: Honest: I have climbed dozens of routes that were genuinely at the limit of my ability and with death potenial; holds that were smaller than I've ever used before, pulling on loose holds without breathing, rubbish or no protection. Can't believe there are not thousands of others out there doing the same. Nothing particulalry hard-core about this, but it does give one the right to comment on others pushing their own limits. Not that I did.
In the article in Climber it said that McCaffie had made an unsuccessful onsight attempt at IF. What was the story there?
In reply to Owen W-G: Didn't he attempt to onsight Masters Wall, go off route (ending up somewhere between MW and IF) and end up with an epic immortalised in the Readers Digest?
In reply to Peter Walker:
You can tell it a proper on sight attempt if someone with his talents got lost, good effort that man!
You can tell it a proper on sight attempt if someone with his talents got lost, good effort that man!
In reply to Owen W-G:
Bizzarely, I remeber the McCaffie story was published on reader's digest, someone posted it on here a while back. really sweaty palm time reading it.
>
> In the article in Climber it said that McCaffie had made an unsuccessful onsight attempt at IF. What was the story there?
> In the article in Climber it said that McCaffie had made an unsuccessful onsight attempt at IF. What was the story there?
Bizzarely, I remeber the McCaffie story was published on reader's digest, someone posted it on here a while back. really sweaty palm time reading it.
In reply to Kemics:
I think you're wrong.
Sharp rocks don't give a f*** which poorly protected route you ripped the hold off when you hit them. If you're scared for your life and at the limit of your experience on snappy ground then it doesn't matter one little bit what the nominal grade is.
jk
> I think that is quite possibly the most spectacular dumbing down i've heard in a while. I think those experiences have very little in common.
I think you're wrong.
Sharp rocks don't give a f*** which poorly protected route you ripped the hold off when you hit them. If you're scared for your life and at the limit of your experience on snappy ground then it doesn't matter one little bit what the nominal grade is.
jk
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
johnny appears (in the way he is reflected in the media, i've never met him) to make flippant comments without too much mental filtering.
I expect he means no harm and I doubt dave is offended.
It appeared to me (in the way he is reflected in the media, i've never met him!!) that dave did indian face just to move on. he wasn't enthused over the route on first acquaintance, so wasn't driven to improve upon previous the styles of ascent.
maybe he will post and kill the mystery for you all
johnny appears (in the way he is reflected in the media, i've never met him) to make flippant comments without too much mental filtering.
I expect he means no harm and I doubt dave is offended.
It appeared to me (in the way he is reflected in the media, i've never met him!!) that dave did indian face just to move on. he wasn't enthused over the route on first acquaintance, so wasn't driven to improve upon previous the styles of ascent.
maybe he will post and kill the mystery for you all
In reply to a lakeland climber:
Re the dates of things, the introduction of wires in the early 70s made a huge difference. Although cams (late 70s) are highly desirable on Welsh and Lakes walls, wires are pretty much a necessity.
Something like Silhouette, where you can slot a wire in every few feet, was probably once as run-out at Troach - but far more sustained.
The guys (and gals) going up there in the 60s and before really were taking their lives in their hands.
Mick
Re the dates of things, the introduction of wires in the early 70s made a huge difference. Although cams (late 70s) are highly desirable on Welsh and Lakes walls, wires are pretty much a necessity.
Something like Silhouette, where you can slot a wire in every few feet, was probably once as run-out at Troach - but far more sustained.
The guys (and gals) going up there in the 60s and before really were taking their lives in their hands.
Mick
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
I don't think he was scared enough or found it enough of a deeply emotional experience for JD
I don't think he was scared enough or found it enough of a deeply emotional experience for JD
In reply to Max factor: "Bizzarely, I remeber the McCaffie story was published on reader's digest, someone posted it on here a while back. really sweaty palm time reading it."
If anyone has this article or can find it, could you please repost it here? I've tryed finding it myself but had no luck
If anyone has this article or can find it, could you please repost it here? I've tryed finding it myself but had no luck
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: Its in the back of the CC Cloggy guide I believe...
Ed
Ed
In reply to iamchris:
I was talking gash, it was an onsight attempt at Masters Wall. found the old thread but link is not active and I can't find it on the net.
I was talking gash, it was an onsight attempt at Masters Wall. found the old thread but link is not active and I can't find it on the net.
Dave Mcleods' ascent clearly is the least impressive, as it is the most recent, and so made at a point when standards have advanced further than when the previous ascenionists climbed it. You could take JD's comment as a veiled compliment as Dave Mc, has been the reason why standards have moved on to a large extent, as a holder of the "hardest trad route" badge at E10+ of whatever, IF was more within his limits than anyone else, as he is the best climber that has ever tried it.
This is not logically inconsistent with it still being a very impressive achivement!
Don't think DM will lose sleep or even see it as a insult to be honest...
This is not logically inconsistent with it still being a very impressive achivement!
Don't think DM will lose sleep or even see it as a insult to be honest...
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Without reading the article it seems like a fair but very blunt assessment of Dave MacLeod's ascent style. Dawes doesn't really mince his words though and that's what makes him entertaining (like Haston).
What gets me though is the plonkers who decry MacLeod because he's unassuming.
What we have here is a genuinely world class climber with a huge ticklist of desperate routes in all disciplines under his belt. I would suggest the armchair critics actually step back and take a decent look at his achievements before spouting such disrespectful sh1te.
Without reading the article it seems like a fair but very blunt assessment of Dave MacLeod's ascent style. Dawes doesn't really mince his words though and that's what makes him entertaining (like Haston).
What gets me though is the plonkers who decry MacLeod because he's unassuming.
What we have here is a genuinely world class climber with a huge ticklist of desperate routes in all disciplines under his belt. I would suggest the armchair critics actually step back and take a decent look at his achievements before spouting such disrespectful sh1te.
In reply to Wee Davie:
I agree. DM's quiet, unassuming nature is a positive thing in my view, as is his accessibility to the rest of us punters. Each to their own though.
> (In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs)
> What gets me though is the plonkers who decry MacLeod because he's unassuming.
> What we have here is a genuinely world class climber with a huge ticklist of desperate routes in all disciplines under his belt. I would suggest the armchair critics actually step back and take a decent look at his achievements before spouting such disrespectful sh1te.
> What we have here is a genuinely world class climber with a huge ticklist of desperate routes in all disciplines under his belt. I would suggest the armchair critics actually step back and take a decent look at his achievements before spouting such disrespectful sh1te.
I agree. DM's quiet, unassuming nature is a positive thing in my view, as is his accessibility to the rest of us punters. Each to their own though.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
Don't be stupid. You think someone can climb top end winter, sport, trad and a decent level of bouldering on hard work and a methodical mindset alone? MacLeod is one of the best all round climbers in the world, so that's quite a stupid statement to make.
Seems some people are just irritated with MacLeod because he didn't hype up IF even more. Standards change, and maybe for someone who's ticked E11 and a lot of other extremely hard routes, the route may not fully live up to the mythical status that people who've never even seen the route seem to thrive on.
> I think it simply comes down to the fact that Dawes is a natural genius, who moves on rock like no other, and Dave Macloed is exceptionally methodical and hard working. Dawes, like a lot of people, probably just sees Macleod boring to watch and listen to.
>
> I have to admit I don't find Dave captivating to watch and he doesnt inspire me, I do however love his books and website and think it is admirable how enthusiastic he is about teaching others and making elite knowledge and practice accesible, and for that I admire him.
>
> I have to admit I don't find Dave captivating to watch and he doesnt inspire me, I do however love his books and website and think it is admirable how enthusiastic he is about teaching others and making elite knowledge and practice accesible, and for that I admire him.
Don't be stupid. You think someone can climb top end winter, sport, trad and a decent level of bouldering on hard work and a methodical mindset alone? MacLeod is one of the best all round climbers in the world, so that's quite a stupid statement to make.
Seems some people are just irritated with MacLeod because he didn't hype up IF even more. Standards change, and maybe for someone who's ticked E11 and a lot of other extremely hard routes, the route may not fully live up to the mythical status that people who've never even seen the route seem to thrive on.
In reply to scooott: Im actually bored to tears reading about IF, its an old route and things have moved on
In reply to Mick Ward:
Hmmm, I followed Jim Moran on what was still an early ascent of Silhouette in the mid 70's, it still seemed frighteningly run out then!
> (In reply to a lakeland climber)
> Something like Silhouette, where you can slot a wire in every few feet, was probably once as run-out at Troach - but far more sustained.
>
> The guys (and gals) going up there in the 60s and before really were taking their lives in their hands.
>
> Mick
> Something like Silhouette, where you can slot a wire in every few feet, was probably once as run-out at Troach - but far more sustained.
>
> The guys (and gals) going up there in the 60s and before really were taking their lives in their hands.
>
> Mick
Hmmm, I followed Jim Moran on what was still an early ascent of Silhouette in the mid 70's, it still seemed frighteningly run out then!
In reply to Al Evans:
I did it in 1984, I think. Didn't have Friends, but filled it with wires. I'd been hit with a rock on Pen Trywn the day before and was feeling a bit wobbly.
Jim probably didn't need much gear. There's a big difference between him and me!
Mick
I did it in 1984, I think. Didn't have Friends, but filled it with wires. I'd been hit with a rock on Pen Trywn the day before and was feeling a bit wobbly.
Jim probably didn't need much gear. There's a big difference between him and me!
Mick
In reply to Erik B:
I'm bored to tears about people getting sly digs in at climbers like MacLeod.
They can't really criticize his climbing achievements, so they just say 'ah he's boring, he has no personality' instead. I don't understand the mindset of some people. And implying he has no natural talent, he's just a 'hard worker'. Hah.
I've read it quite a few times on here, what makes those people so special that they can call MacLeod boring and dull? What's so exciting about them? If anyone knows, please enlighten me.
I'm sure VDiff on a weekend makes you a much more thrilling character.
/rant
> (In reply to scooott) Im actually bored to tears reading about IF, its an old route and things have moved on
I'm bored to tears about people getting sly digs in at climbers like MacLeod.
They can't really criticize his climbing achievements, so they just say 'ah he's boring, he has no personality' instead. I don't understand the mindset of some people. And implying he has no natural talent, he's just a 'hard worker'. Hah.
I've read it quite a few times on here, what makes those people so special that they can call MacLeod boring and dull? What's so exciting about them? If anyone knows, please enlighten me.
I'm sure VDiff on a weekend makes you a much more thrilling character.
/rant
In reply to Mick Ward:
Yeh, Jim was a very underated climber, he lived in the shadow of Gabriel Regan but really was as good as any of the Glossop lads with more ambition and sight than most. At one time I think Jim had done more first ascents on Gogarth than anybody apart from Joe Brown, can't remember how many, but over 30!
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> I did it in 1984, I think. Didn't have Friends, but filled it with wires. I'd been hit with a rock on Pen Trywn the day before and was feeling a bit wobbly.
>
> Jim probably didn't need much gear. There's a big difference between him and me!
>
> Mick
>
> I did it in 1984, I think. Didn't have Friends, but filled it with wires. I'd been hit with a rock on Pen Trywn the day before and was feeling a bit wobbly.
>
> Jim probably didn't need much gear. There's a big difference between him and me!
>
> Mick
Yeh, Jim was a very underated climber, he lived in the shadow of Gabriel Regan but really was as good as any of the Glossop lads with more ambition and sight than most. At one time I think Jim had done more first ascents on Gogarth than anybody apart from Joe Brown, can't remember how many, but over 30!
In reply to Wee Davie:
Well said. This applies to a lot of athletes in the public eye. Remember when Pete Sampras reigned supreme in tennis (at least on grass) and was always criticised for being "boring"? I saw him address this quite succinctly in an interview, and admired him for doing so - he said, without bragging, something like "I'm there to win, not to be entertaining....and I can pull off shots that nobody else can. That's not actually boring!"
>
>
> What gets me though is the plonkers who decry MacLeod because he's unassuming.
>
> What gets me though is the plonkers who decry MacLeod because he's unassuming.
Well said. This applies to a lot of athletes in the public eye. Remember when Pete Sampras reigned supreme in tennis (at least on grass) and was always criticised for being "boring"? I saw him address this quite succinctly in an interview, and admired him for doing so - he said, without bragging, something like "I'm there to win, not to be entertaining....and I can pull off shots that nobody else can. That's not actually boring!"
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: I read an interview with Jim Perrin that Dawes did in 1987 in 'Yes to Dance' where he talks about Indian Face;
"Do you feel a bit miffed that people will remember you more for a route like the Indian Face than, Gaia or The Braille Trail?"
"Yes in a way. Also I had to cheat more on Indian Face - I rehearsed two sets of moves on a rope - because other people always cheated as well on those routes. But what I was left with was one of the most beautiful routes in Wales"
So even when he did the first ascent he regarded redpointing as cheating.
"Do you feel a bit miffed that people will remember you more for a route like the Indian Face than, Gaia or The Braille Trail?"
"Yes in a way. Also I had to cheat more on Indian Face - I rehearsed two sets of moves on a rope - because other people always cheated as well on those routes. But what I was left with was one of the most beautiful routes in Wales"
So even when he did the first ascent he regarded redpointing as cheating.
In reply to Offwidth:
Nothing worthwhile... it's a classic solo anyway, I figure if you somehow came off it you'd probably be able to turn and jump out into the sea. I'd be more worried about jellyfish than anything else!
> (In reply to Southern Man)
>
> Moonjelly has gear.
>
> Moonjelly has gear.
Nothing worthwhile... it's a classic solo anyway, I figure if you somehow came off it you'd probably be able to turn and jump out into the sea. I'd be more worried about jellyfish than anything else!
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: I think Dave had no choice but to climb the route you can't keep putting up routes of e10's and not do Indian face!why are people criticizing his approach to climbing the route i don't understand all top climbers top rope routs,they always have and always will!
In reply to Wee Davie: Well said mate....!
In reply to Wilbur:
I chickened out of Moonjelly either the same day or the day after I led Yellow Dogs (not onsight). Didn't like the look of it: slab, no gear, I can hardly swim... maybe another time.
I chickened out of Moonjelly either the same day or the day after I led Yellow Dogs (not onsight). Didn't like the look of it: slab, no gear, I can hardly swim... maybe another time.
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Back on topic and playing Devil's Advocate here: didn't Dave Mac toprope the wrong line initially so ended up onsighting it? Someone correct me if this is mince, but it rings a bell that the line, or at least a significant part of the line, he toproped was different to the one he led.
Back on topic and playing Devil's Advocate here: didn't Dave Mac toprope the wrong line initially so ended up onsighting it? Someone correct me if this is mince, but it rings a bell that the line, or at least a significant part of the line, he toproped was different to the one he led.
In reply to Wilbur:
My worthwhile is better than yours then. Its a classic solo for some but getting back down is about Diff.
My worthwhile is better than yours then. Its a classic solo for some but getting back down is about Diff.
In reply to Removed User:
i'd thought the wrong line was during his initial visit a couple of years back, when he commented on the snappy nature of the holds- as far as i am aware during the more recent visit he did practice the proper line, and didn;t claim an onsight,
cheers
gregor
i'd thought the wrong line was during his initial visit a couple of years back, when he commented on the snappy nature of the holds- as far as i am aware during the more recent visit he did practice the proper line, and didn;t claim an onsight,
cheers
gregor
In reply to alx:
> Climbing to impress is like eating at a fancy restaurant because you want a shit.
And shitting impresses you? In reply to Removed User:
As I understand it he spent his first visit off-line and never got on the lead. Next time round he got the right line and made a very quick headpoint in less than idea conditions.
Rather than least impressive, I think Dave Mac was the least impressed. Other repeats have led to tearful eulogies and thousand-yard stares. Dave just did it and moved on. But then I guess he has been on bigger, harder, scarier things.
As I understand it he spent his first visit off-line and never got on the lead. Next time round he got the right line and made a very quick headpoint in less than idea conditions.
Rather than least impressive, I think Dave Mac was the least impressed. Other repeats have led to tearful eulogies and thousand-yard stares. Dave just did it and moved on. But then I guess he has been on bigger, harder, scarier things.
In reply to hexcentric: Perhaps climbing is like art - it needs a narrative.
In reply to scooott: hes not a loudmouthed tattooed ersholen from sheffield, this really grates the lesser talents from that ilke
To all Dave Mcleod Haters: I really dont see why anyone has to have a go a dave at all, for starters for many of us he is simply the MAN, he is my hero a god amongst me....er sorry bit carried away there, I love Johnny too. Yes dave is quite and unassuming but thats what does it for me just doing the biz and keeping it on the DL. Lets face facts Dave Mcleod is one of the top climbers in the world. I tell ya what is boring, a bunch of moaning english men THAT IS BORING.
I guess there is probably some truth in the fact the if your a big name with sponsorship and your face on cereal boxes then you have to go out and do these things, bit like a punchlist and sometimes that must get tedious especially if you have no fire for the route. Me im a grit man and I will die happy and elated if I do masters edge and wall of sound, I dont have the same fire for Parthian Shot, is that wrong?
I guess there is probably some truth in the fact the if your a big name with sponsorship and your face on cereal boxes then you have to go out and do these things, bit like a punchlist and sometimes that must get tedious especially if you have no fire for the route. Me im a grit man and I will die happy and elated if I do masters edge and wall of sound, I dont have the same fire for Parthian Shot, is that wrong?
In reply to nilcanpoop: nilcanpoop:
Johnny was hacked off that Dave Mac seemed to characterise his greatest route as a shitty loose slab after his first look-see (he was off line) but I think Johnny's comment that the style of Dave's ascent was unimpressive was churlish.
Hard trad climbing has gone in a different direction to the likes of IF. Its a bit like the offwidths of Brown/Whillans being hard today (yet still venerated) because its a type of climbing that isn't generally climbed a lot.
Disclosure: I am from Sheffield but don't have tattoos.
Johnny was hacked off that Dave Mac seemed to characterise his greatest route as a shitty loose slab after his first look-see (he was off line) but I think Johnny's comment that the style of Dave's ascent was unimpressive was churlish.
Hard trad climbing has gone in a different direction to the likes of IF. Its a bit like the offwidths of Brown/Whillans being hard today (yet still venerated) because its a type of climbing that isn't generally climbed a lot.
Disclosure: I am from Sheffield but don't have tattoos.
In reply to shark:
I would Wad that if I could.
> (In reply to nilcanpoop) nilcanpoop:
>
> Hard trad climbing has gone in a different direction to the likes of IF. Its a bit like the offwidths of Brown/Whillans being hard today (yet still venerated) because its a type of climbing that isn't generally climbed a lot.
>
> Hard trad climbing has gone in a different direction to the likes of IF. Its a bit like the offwidths of Brown/Whillans being hard today (yet still venerated) because its a type of climbing that isn't generally climbed a lot.
>
I would Wad that if I could.
I'm sorry but Dave Macleod is bascially a sport climber. To top rope the crap out of the routes he does is hardly much of a trad ethic and that alone makes me believe that he cannot be considered one of the best trad climbers in the world.
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
He's onsighted E8, hasn't he? Hardly shoddy. Plus the routes he climbs are undeniably trad routes and he makes pretty fast repeats of other's routes in the style in which they were climbed originally.
There is an up and coming ground up style, which is an nice development and suits routes with good gear or shorter routes and at some point I have no doubt that standards will progress and today's big routes will be done onsight. Regardless of that, I find it hard to understand why Dave McLeod isn't one of the best trad climbers around. In your opinion, who is (outside short grit routes)?
> I'm sorry but Dave Macleod is bascially a sport climber. To top rope the crap out of the routes he does is hardly much of a trad ethic and that alone makes me believe that he cannot be considered one of the best trad climbers in the world.
He's onsighted E8, hasn't he? Hardly shoddy. Plus the routes he climbs are undeniably trad routes and he makes pretty fast repeats of other's routes in the style in which they were climbed originally.
There is an up and coming ground up style, which is an nice development and suits routes with good gear or shorter routes and at some point I have no doubt that standards will progress and today's big routes will be done onsight. Regardless of that, I find it hard to understand why Dave McLeod isn't one of the best trad climbers around. In your opinion, who is (outside short grit routes)?
In reply to nilcanpoop:
I also like Dave MacLeod but I'm not sure filming his hard ascents, releasing them on DVD and selling them through his own website is keeping it on the DL.
Rob
> Yes dave is quite and unassuming but thats what does it for me just doing the biz and keeping it on the DL.
I also like Dave MacLeod but I'm not sure filming his hard ascents, releasing them on DVD and selling them through his own website is keeping it on the DL.
Rob
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
Semantics. He is undoubtedly the UK's leading headpointer. That is clearly the style he has been most excited by and motivated to push the boundaries of, in the last few years.
Whether you consider that sport climbing or trad climbing is neither here nor there and frankly endlessly arguing over it is a bit boring. It is what it is.
Oh and it's 'style', not 'ethic', FYI.
Semantics. He is undoubtedly the UK's leading headpointer. That is clearly the style he has been most excited by and motivated to push the boundaries of, in the last few years.
Whether you consider that sport climbing or trad climbing is neither here nor there and frankly endlessly arguing over it is a bit boring. It is what it is.
Oh and it's 'style', not 'ethic', FYI.
In reply to Anonymous:
What is it with people posting anonymously?! This seems to be on the increase at the moment, it annoys me. If you want to have a discussion, put your name to it. If you don't have the conviction to stand by your comments and defend them without hiding behind something then shut up and keep it to yourself. Don't be a coward!
[To the mods - take this ability away and these people will either go away or learn to stay constructive and not be petty and insulting! The reputation for these boards is getting worse and worse and, frankly, I can see why!]
What is it with people posting anonymously?! This seems to be on the increase at the moment, it annoys me. If you want to have a discussion, put your name to it. If you don't have the conviction to stand by your comments and defend them without hiding behind something then shut up and keep it to yourself. Don't be a coward!
[To the mods - take this ability away and these people will either go away or learn to stay constructive and not be petty and insulting! The reputation for these boards is getting worse and worse and, frankly, I can see why!]
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
Two things to say;
1. Johhny 'led' the route 25 years ago! That is a f*cking eternity. And that is why he is unimpressed with MacLoed's effort. Surely standards have risen since then.
2. Do you really find Dave's books that interesting? That one called '9 Out of 10 climbers' was about as much fun as a Chancellor's budget speech.
> I think it simply comes down to the fact that Dawes is a natural genius, who moves on rock like no other, and Dave Macloed is exceptionally methodical and hard working. Dawes, like a lot of people, probably just sees Macleod boring to watch and listen to.
>
> I have to admit I don't find Dave captivating to watch and he doesnt inspire me, I do however love his books and website and think it is admirable how enthusiastic he is about teaching others and making elite knowledge and practice accesible, and for that I admire him.
>
> I have to admit I don't find Dave captivating to watch and he doesnt inspire me, I do however love his books and website and think it is admirable how enthusiastic he is about teaching others and making elite knowledge and practice accesible, and for that I admire him.
Two things to say;
1. Johhny 'led' the route 25 years ago! That is a f*cking eternity. And that is why he is unimpressed with MacLoed's effort. Surely standards have risen since then.
2. Do you really find Dave's books that interesting? That one called '9 Out of 10 climbers' was about as much fun as a Chancellor's budget speech.
In reply to Monk:> He's onsighted E8, hasn't he? Hardly shoddy.
Don't think so. His standout trad achievements have been headpoints.
Don't think so. His standout trad achievements have been headpoints.
In reply to Ian Jones:> 2. Do you really find Dave's books that interesting? That one called '9 Out of 10 climbers' was about as much fun as a Chancellor's budget speech.
You've said this before - it's a training book not a ripping yarn muppet
You've said this before - it's a training book not a ripping yarn muppet
In reply to Lupine Lacuna:
Complete bollocks. I belayed Dave on To Hell and Back - that was very definitely a very bold trad ascent, and a long way from a sport route.
> I'm sorry but Dave Macleod is bascially a sport climber. To top rope the crap out of the routes he does is hardly much of a trad ethic and that alone makes me believe that he cannot be considered one of the best trad climbers in the world.
Complete bollocks. I belayed Dave on To Hell and Back - that was very definitely a very bold trad ascent, and a long way from a sport route.
In reply to PebblePusher: Good point. I hate these inadequates who don't use their real name.
In reply to Ian Jones:
Is that meant to be intimidating ?
> (In reply to shark)
>
> You should watch your language.
>
> ****
>
> You should watch your language.
>
> ****
Is that meant to be intimidating ?
In reply to shark:
Fair enough. My statement genuinely was a question rather than an affectation. Having done a little research and you may be right. But he has climbed E7 onsight.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
Fair enough. My statement genuinely was a question rather than an affectation. Having done a little research and you may be right. But he has climbed E7 onsight.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
JD felt it was worth risking his life to make the first ascent of IF.
The two Neils also felt making 2nd and 3rd ascents justified the risks they took.
DM didn't feel like risking his life to make the 4th ascent.
To me that's his decision, and his alone, and not one to be influenced by peer pressure or the risk of an internet backlash
But JD is right, it is the least impressive of the 4, and I doubt DM would disagree. 4 ascents in 25 years just shows how far ahead of the curve JD was at the time
JD felt it was worth risking his life to make the first ascent of IF.
The two Neils also felt making 2nd and 3rd ascents justified the risks they took.
DM didn't feel like risking his life to make the 4th ascent.
To me that's his decision, and his alone, and not one to be influenced by peer pressure or the risk of an internet backlash
But JD is right, it is the least impressive of the 4, and I doubt DM would disagree. 4 ascents in 25 years just shows how far ahead of the curve JD was at the time
In reply to Monk:> Fair enough. My statement genuinely was a question rather than an affectation. Having done a little research and you may be right. But he has climbed E7 onsight.
I think it does matter on various levels. If you view onsighting as the way to go re trad then he has not especially achieved compared to other climbers. His choices obviously. I respect what he has achieved but I can see the other POV.
>
> Anyway, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
> Anyway, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
I think it does matter on various levels. If you view onsighting as the way to go re trad then he has not especially achieved compared to other climbers. His choices obviously. I respect what he has achieved but I can see the other POV.
In reply to shark:
Again a fair point. My 'grand scheme of things' meant life as a whole. I agree that E7 onsight is very good but not necessarily cutting edge. It's horses for courses though, isn't it. Dave is at the top of the game in winter and headpointing, and holds his own onsight and in sport. Others are better than him in the latter two areas though. Any way you look at it, he's a damn good climber.
I get fed up with the bitching and denigration (not from you, obviously) on UKC. I was probably once guilty of thinking that onsight trad was the one true way, but then I went climbing more and chilled out. As long as no damage is being done and everyone is having a good time, where's the problem?
> (In reply to Monk)> Fair enough. My statement genuinely was a question rather than an affectation. Having done a little research and you may be right. But he has climbed E7 onsight.
> [...]
>
>
>
> I think it does matter on various levels. If you view onsighting as the way to go re trad then he has not especially achieved compared to other climbers. His choices obviously. I respect what he has achieved but I can see the other POV.
> [...]
>
>
>
> I think it does matter on various levels. If you view onsighting as the way to go re trad then he has not especially achieved compared to other climbers. His choices obviously. I respect what he has achieved but I can see the other POV.
Again a fair point. My 'grand scheme of things' meant life as a whole. I agree that E7 onsight is very good but not necessarily cutting edge. It's horses for courses though, isn't it. Dave is at the top of the game in winter and headpointing, and holds his own onsight and in sport. Others are better than him in the latter two areas though. Any way you look at it, he's a damn good climber.
I get fed up with the bitching and denigration (not from you, obviously) on UKC. I was probably once guilty of thinking that onsight trad was the one true way, but then I went climbing more and chilled out. As long as no damage is being done and everyone is having a good time, where's the problem?
In reply to shark:
He came very close to the hardest ever trad onsight last year on that route on Gallt yr Ogof
> (In reply to Monk)> Fair enough. My statement genuinely was a question rather than an affectation. Having done a little research and you may be right. But he has climbed E7 onsight.
> [...]
>
>
>
> I think it does matter on various levels. If you view onsighting as the way to go re trad then he has not especially achieved compared to other climbers. His choices obviously. I respect what he has achieved but I can see the other POV.
> [...]
>
>
>
> I think it does matter on various levels. If you view onsighting as the way to go re trad then he has not especially achieved compared to other climbers. His choices obviously. I respect what he has achieved but I can see the other POV.
He came very close to the hardest ever trad onsight last year on that route on Gallt yr Ogof
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Why are you assuming that Macloed took any less risks than the others?
Dawes lived in Llanberis, top roped the route a number of times over the space of about a year or so and could choose the ideal time and conditions to do the route.
Dixon is also local, used pre-placed gear and head pointed it (Nixon I think invented the term).
Gresham also top roped it (think he was a temporary local resident) and used pre-placed gear from a previous attempt.
Macloed lives in Scotland, top roped it on a flying visit one weekend and inspected it on abseil before leading it in less than ideal conditions.
Macloeds is definately no worse than the other ascents style wise.
His only "crime" was not to be totally ecstatic about the route. He ticked it and moved on.
Maybe it's about time that Indian Face is seen for what it is. The former hardest Trad route in the UK/World.
Why are you assuming that Macloed took any less risks than the others?
Dawes lived in Llanberis, top roped the route a number of times over the space of about a year or so and could choose the ideal time and conditions to do the route.
Dixon is also local, used pre-placed gear and head pointed it (Nixon I think invented the term).
Gresham also top roped it (think he was a temporary local resident) and used pre-placed gear from a previous attempt.
Macloed lives in Scotland, top roped it on a flying visit one weekend and inspected it on abseil before leading it in less than ideal conditions.
Macloeds is definately no worse than the other ascents style wise.
His only "crime" was not to be totally ecstatic about the route. He ticked it and moved on.
Maybe it's about time that Indian Face is seen for what it is. The former hardest Trad route in the UK/World.
In reply to Bulls Crack:
Mission Impossible? So did Steve Mac. I think this route falls in the category of 'sporty trad'. If you take the E grade in isolation to categorise 'the hardest ever trad onsight' then it is feasible that should Adam Ondra rock up at a well protected E9/10 he could become the best trad climber ever on his first trad route. Similar score with highballs.
> (In reply to shark)
> [...]
>
> He came very close to the hardest ever trad onsight last year on that route on Gallt yr Ogof
> [...]
>
> He came very close to the hardest ever trad onsight last year on that route on Gallt yr Ogof
Mission Impossible? So did Steve Mac. I think this route falls in the category of 'sporty trad'. If you take the E grade in isolation to categorise 'the hardest ever trad onsight' then it is feasible that should Adam Ondra rock up at a well protected E9/10 he could become the best trad climber ever on his first trad route. Similar score with highballs.
In reply to MJ:
A nice bit of perspective there ! He did it in the rain so cant have been too worried about it being hard. From DM's blog : 'The next bit up to the good hold before the crux went much better. Stood there I tried to feel the aura of the route to tell myself I shouldn’t be there. But after a few minutes I still wasn’t scared and felt I ought to be getting moving on sore feet. I looked down. Claire was yawning. I felt thirsty, and noticed a fly buzz past. Time to go.'
A nice bit of perspective there ! He did it in the rain so cant have been too worried about it being hard. From DM's blog : 'The next bit up to the good hold before the crux went much better. Stood there I tried to feel the aura of the route to tell myself I shouldn’t be there. But after a few minutes I still wasn’t scared and felt I ought to be getting moving on sore feet. I looked down. Claire was yawning. I felt thirsty, and noticed a fly buzz past. Time to go.'
In reply to shark: still trad though, innit. I went trad climbing at pembroke last weekend, not 'sporty-trad climbing' :P
I agree, Ondra could clean up most hard trad routes onsight if he had the desire. It would be amazing to see.
Dunc
I agree, Ondra could clean up most hard trad routes onsight if he had the desire. It would be amazing to see.
Dunc
In reply to Monk:> I agree that E7 onsight is very good but not necessarily cutting edge. It's horses for courses though, isn't it. Dave is at the top of the game in winter and headpointing, and holds his own onsight and in sport. Others are better than him in the latter two areas though. Any way you look at it, he's a damn good climber.
Agreed. I would be intersted on Dave's thoughts as to why he hasn't pursued the onsight approach towards the limits of his capabilities...so far at least. After all even Jack Geldard has onsighted E8
>
Agreed. I would be intersted on Dave's thoughts as to why he hasn't pursued the onsight approach towards the limits of his capabilities...so far at least. After all even Jack Geldard has onsighted E8
In reply to MJ:
"(Nixon I think invented the term)".
Dixon obviously.
Nixon might be responsible for many things. However, headpointing wasn't one of them.
"(Nixon I think invented the term)".
Dixon obviously.
Nixon might be responsible for many things. However, headpointing wasn't one of them.
In reply to plexiglass_nick: I'm not sure if it is still the case after this amazing winter, but at least for an awful long time MacLeod had onsighted a harder new British winter route than anyone else. The idea that Dave isn't the best all-rounder in the UK seems rather hard to argue!
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Have not read all the replys so forgive me if this is a repeat but from the replys I have read it seems to me you are all missing Johnny's point.
Indian Face is a 7b+/c chop route.
When Johnny did it he was only capable of climbing 7c/+ on bolts.
When Gresham did it he was climbing 8b on bolts.
When Dave Mac did it he had climbed 9a on bolts.
I dont know about Dixon.
Climbing a 7b+/c chop route when you are only physically capable of 7c/+ is a very impressive feat of calm and bravery.
Climbing a 7b+/c chop route when you are physically capable of 9a is less so.
Have not read all the replys so forgive me if this is a repeat but from the replys I have read it seems to me you are all missing Johnny's point.
Indian Face is a 7b+/c chop route.
When Johnny did it he was only capable of climbing 7c/+ on bolts.
When Gresham did it he was climbing 8b on bolts.
When Dave Mac did it he had climbed 9a on bolts.
I dont know about Dixon.
Climbing a 7b+/c chop route when you are only physically capable of 7c/+ is a very impressive feat of calm and bravery.
Climbing a 7b+/c chop route when you are physically capable of 9a is less so.
In reply to sphagnum:
I believe this is the main reason MacLeod is receiving some negative comments.
He's entitled to his own opinion though. He's climbed much more demanding routes at E11, physically harder and mentally harder. So granted, he's gonna find IF less taxing.
I don't see how that can be turned into an insult on his character though. He's the best Brittish all-round climber, period, and deserves the respect for that.
> (In reply to MJ)
>
> A nice bit of perspective there ! He did it in the rain so cant have been too worried about it being hard. From DM's blog : 'The next bit up to the good hold before the crux went much better. Stood there I tried to feel the aura of the route to tell myself I shouldn’t be there. But after a few minutes I still wasn’t scared and felt I ought to be getting moving on sore feet. I looked down. Claire was yawning. I felt thirsty, and noticed a fly buzz past. Time to go.'
>
> A nice bit of perspective there ! He did it in the rain so cant have been too worried about it being hard. From DM's blog : 'The next bit up to the good hold before the crux went much better. Stood there I tried to feel the aura of the route to tell myself I shouldn’t be there. But after a few minutes I still wasn’t scared and felt I ought to be getting moving on sore feet. I looked down. Claire was yawning. I felt thirsty, and noticed a fly buzz past. Time to go.'
I believe this is the main reason MacLeod is receiving some negative comments.
He's entitled to his own opinion though. He's climbed much more demanding routes at E11, physically harder and mentally harder. So granted, he's gonna find IF less taxing.
I don't see how that can be turned into an insult on his character though. He's the best Brittish all-round climber, period, and deserves the respect for that.
In reply to Richard Hall:>
Bit of context required. AFAIK Gresham wasn't climbing 8b slabs on bolts or Dave Mac climbing 9a slabs. In this area Johnny was the master - ie he did The Very Big and the Very Small at 8b+/c a few years after IF.
> When Gresham did it he was climbing 8b on bolts.
>
> When Dave Mac did it he had climbed 9a on bolts.
>
>
> When Dave Mac did it he had climbed 9a on bolts.
>
Bit of context required. AFAIK Gresham wasn't climbing 8b slabs on bolts or Dave Mac climbing 9a slabs. In this area Johnny was the master - ie he did The Very Big and the Very Small at 8b+/c a few years after IF.
In reply to shark: Good point, but my point is still valid. Anyone who climbs 9a, or even 8b, should piss up a 7b+ slab.
In reply to tony:
Quite. What grade was it again and what would have been the result of failure on the crux? IIRC it would have been an 80 foot plummet into a boulder field. Dave deserves respect for putting his life on the line by leaving his hardest ascents as very very challenging trad climbs rather than getting the Hilti out and turning them into sports routes. Further he's not just done it once but he's done several times over many years.
I was going to ask Luca whether he'd actually seen Echo Wall (or Dumbarton rock for that matter) as I suspect he's suffering from clue deficit syndrome. It's the only explanation I can come up with for his extraordinary observation.
> (In reply to Lupine Lacuna)
> [...]
>
> Complete bollocks. I belayed Dave on To Hell and Back - that was very definitely a very bold trad ascent, and a long way from a sport route.
> [...]
>
> Complete bollocks. I belayed Dave on To Hell and Back - that was very definitely a very bold trad ascent, and a long way from a sport route.
Quite. What grade was it again and what would have been the result of failure on the crux? IIRC it would have been an 80 foot plummet into a boulder field. Dave deserves respect for putting his life on the line by leaving his hardest ascents as very very challenging trad climbs rather than getting the Hilti out and turning them into sports routes. Further he's not just done it once but he's done several times over many years.
I was going to ask Luca whether he'd actually seen Echo Wall (or Dumbarton rock for that matter) as I suspect he's suffering from clue deficit syndrome. It's the only explanation I can come up with for his extraordinary observation.
Im exagerating re the sport climber bit.
But honestly they were the most boring climbing films I have ever seen
But honestly they were the most boring climbing films I have ever seen
In reply to Richard Hall:
I'm impressed this thread is still going after so long...
I think Richard's comment above makes a lot of sense, and may be what JD meant- but i'm sure there was an implication in what he said that DM had top roped it more than the others... i didn't think that was the case and wondered if there was any substance in that...?
cheers
gregor
> (In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs)
>
> Have not read all the replys so forgive me if this is a repeat but from the replys I have read it seems to me you are all missing Johnny's point.
>
> Indian Face is a 7b+/c chop route.
>
> When Johnny did it he was only capable of climbing 7c/+ on bolts.
>
> When Gresham did it he was climbing 8b on bolts.
>
> When Dave Mac did it he had climbed 9a on bolts.
>
> I dont know about Dixon.
>
>
> Climbing a 7b+/c chop route when you are only physically capable of 7c/+ is a very impressive feat of calm and bravery.
>
> Climbing a 7b+/c chop route when you are physically capable of 9a is less so.
>
> Have not read all the replys so forgive me if this is a repeat but from the replys I have read it seems to me you are all missing Johnny's point.
>
> Indian Face is a 7b+/c chop route.
>
> When Johnny did it he was only capable of climbing 7c/+ on bolts.
>
> When Gresham did it he was climbing 8b on bolts.
>
> When Dave Mac did it he had climbed 9a on bolts.
>
> I dont know about Dixon.
>
>
> Climbing a 7b+/c chop route when you are only physically capable of 7c/+ is a very impressive feat of calm and bravery.
>
> Climbing a 7b+/c chop route when you are physically capable of 9a is less so.
I'm impressed this thread is still going after so long...
I think Richard's comment above makes a lot of sense, and may be what JD meant- but i'm sure there was an implication in what he said that DM had top roped it more than the others... i didn't think that was the case and wondered if there was any substance in that...?
cheers
gregor
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Quarryman is Fr8a and he got up that ok same year, Very Big is 8c ?
a few years later so i think you do him down in claiming 7c+
Quarryman is Fr8a and he got up that ok same year, Very Big is 8c ?
a few years later so i think you do him down in claiming 7c+
In reply to lithos:
just quoting another poster- don't know enough about it to comment on the grades myself
i think he was building up JD though- the argument being that JD was much closer to his limit climbing IF, so it was a more impressive ascent. sounded persuasive to me, but i don't know enough about JD's other climbs to know if he was accurate in his assessment
just quoting another poster- don't know enough about it to comment on the grades myself
i think he was building up JD though- the argument being that JD was much closer to his limit climbing IF, so it was a more impressive ascent. sounded persuasive to me, but i don't know enough about JD's other climbs to know if he was accurate in his assessment
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