UKC

hi i already posted this as a comment in the latest artical about Adam Ondra. but i thought it an interesting question so have started a quick discussion about it.

Ondra seems to be leaving everyone else in his wake doesn't he

not to take anything away from the guy, coz honestly i'm a big fan!!

but i was just wondering theoretically, there are presumably no limitations to if someone takes performance enhancing drugs to aid there climbing in a non-competitive situations.....

i know there are drug screenings at some comps. does anyone know the extent of these drug screenings and at which events? is it possible for competitors be taking some of the newer drugs that are harder to trace, even when there are drug screenings?

sorry if i sound like i'm trying to accuse the guy but i'm just theoretically interested, he is probably just an exceptionally talented athlete and climber.

its just that top end performers in many main stream sports get drawn to drugs to enhance performance. could it not be the same for some of the top performers in climbing.....

or is the whole idea of taking drugs against the reason for climbing in the first place (e.g. for the challenge)?

But do all climbers hold those values? and who's to say that climbing a F10a on performance enhancing drugs is not as much of a challenge as any other aim in climbing.

sorry to rant on, i was only going to put up a small message and i'v just realized how much i have written (should have probably started a new post

sam

well...

If you climb hard you get all the babes...

performance enhancing drugs = babes

dems d' rules

sounds like you are thinking about taking drugs rad

have you been back at bus stop this week?

In reply to burdy:
haha. well if it gets me more babes.....then why not

In reply to samrad: Wait till Dom heres about this rage! ;P

In reply to samrad:

Well he's lean as sin! And Moffatt goes on in his biography about weight-loss, so drugs to help dieting/starving before a big redpoint could be used. That would be a kinda natural way of improving (dieting) but with the assistance of drugs in replacement of will-power (resist the urge to eat). I heard he was amazed at how we Britich climbers eat loads of crap; I would imagine he's just very disciplined with his diet, as are all top athletes.
Diuretics too would help lose weight but that would have more of a detriment on performance through dehydration than it would benefit through weight loss.

What other performance enhancing drugs do you think COULD benefit climbing? Steroids are just gona bulk you (from looking at the chap I'm fairly sure Ondra aint on steroids...)

Climbing probably isn't aerobic enough to mean blood doping or cardio-vascular improvements would make a huge amount of difference, not sure though...

One things for sure; genetically he is MADE for climbing!

In reply to Mike Goldthorp:


Weed.

In reply to Mike Goldthorp:


i'm guessing you don't know that much about steroids (do TdF rider looks like they are on steroids ?). more commonly in sports steroids are used for their anti catabolic effects rather than their anabolic properties

In reply to lost1977:
Mikey your are forgetting your studies

In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

steroids don't just increase pure bulk. specific types of steroids can increase strength and strip fat off you without increasing much muscle bulk if used in the right way.

that is why in steroids have been used and banned in professional cycling. A good example is in 2006 Floyd Landis won the tour de france (aguably the most difficult cycling tour in the world) but then was stripped of his title a month after the race when the results of a drug test showed higher-than-allowable levels of testosterone as well as the presence of synthetic testosterone in his body.

to win the tour de france as you know you can't be carrying any unnessesary bulk around as it is a highly intense aerobic based activity.

A bit of info on anabolic steroids: anabolic steroids encompass an entire family of drugs related to testosterone which stimulate muscle growth in the body. Anabolic steroids may be taken by pill, injection or administered through the skin.

so this type of drug is not out of the question for climbing....

as you see it can be traced with regular drug screenings but it is still difficult to pick up on. but climbers don't often get drug screenings unless they go to a high profile competition.... and even then....

but please correct me if i'm wrong, i obviously don't know alot about the drug screening at climbing competitions!!!

In reply to samrad: I reckon performance enhancing drugs must have a place in alpinism. Lots of aerobic work, power endurance etc.

I use Nytol and caffeine to improve my performance (bit tongue in cheek that!) in the mountains, and I've known of people who've taken creatine.

Alcohol is the traditional drug of choice in British trad climbing, but I'm not sure it's as performance enhancing as Whillans et al reckoned!

All climbing is anarchy (and all competitions, sponsorship etc are wank) so I don't see any issue with using drugs for climbing, beyond personal concerns for your own health.

In reply to lost1977:
true that.

In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

Although I agree with everything you said Mikey, especially Ondra being a bad example of any possible doping abuse.

Steroids can be used for other effects other than anabolic enhancement. As for blood doping I may be wrong here but increasing Hemoglobin levels through blood doping in theory would increase the removal of H protons decreasing the rate of lactate/CO2 build up (i.e not pumping out as fast). Also whilst resting (i.e no hands or shaking out) the increased proton transport could in effect speed up the recovery process.

I'm sure someone with a much sounder knowledge of physiology will with dismiss or clarify this.

Also doping occurs in all sports at all levels, my own opinion is you would have to take a very myopic view point to believe this doesn't occur within climbing. If it ever becomes an Olympic sport it would be interesting to see if there is any reductions in performance once regular screening comes into place.

In reply to Flashy:
but you could use that rational for drug use in any sport. which i personally don't agree with. as it will become dangerous for competitors at the elite end of the scale and will become competition based on who can take the most drugs without killing themselves rarther than the act of training and dedication.

it could be comparible in a way to the diffence between aid climbing and free climbing. you can get up harder stuff aid climbing but its compleatley different to free climbing. both have advantages and disadvantages but they are not the same thing. when taking drugs you may be able to climb harder but it you may miss out important aspects of why we climb in that style in the first place.

P.S. caffeine was not the sort of drug i was talking about

In reply to Flashy:

I agree. My drugs of choice are caffeine, ibuprufen and diamox.

In reply to samrad:
that kind of didn't come out the way i intended it to. but i think you may get my trail of thought...?

In reply to samrad:

Oh. Yeah, I don't know much about steroids, I think have must have slept through that lecture...

As for blood doping, I guess the more oxygen to and lactic acid from your forearms the better, but I imagine something like this will only be a limiting factor to a certain level of cardiovascular fitness; with a reasonable degree of cardiovascular fitness you'll probably have plenty of oxygenated blood in your forearms, but not enough surface area/capillaries for all that oxygen to diffuse. Is there a drug that promotes capillarisation of certain muscles? That would be ideal!

In reply to samrad:

You can't really apply that rational to all sports because not all sports are like climbing. Squash, for example, is inherently competitive so drugs give an 'unfair' advantage. Climbing is personal (hence anarchic) so who cares? It's just my stupid way of saying that I don't think competitions are 'real' climbing, and the idea of them is anathema to me. Basically, if I want to pump myself up with EPO for a long easy alpine route I can, and it affects nobody but me.

I think if your title had been "...drugs in competitions" I wouldn't even have clicked on it, but the one you put intrigued me and I couldn't help having a go once I read your post ;-P


Why not? Some have managed to show that it's performance enhancing in running (anecdotally I'd strongly agree!) and I've heard of calls to ban it.

In reply to Flashy:

Caffeine is a sweet drug for improving performance immediately! Good for getting the blood flowing and the mind focusing. A flask of coffee on cold days and a line... I mean... a can of coke on hot days.

In reply to Flashy:

until only a few years ago it was on the WADA banned list (above reasonable amounts)

Performance dehancing drugs are the way forward. Lots of tasty pints with dinner, sleeping tablets in a noisy snorey hut or bunkhouse. Cheap nasty coffee in the morning to wash down a dry burnt square sausage. All of it thrown up in the walk in.

In reply to Flashy:
i was trying to go more along the lines of the drugs that cause large physiological adaptations (not as much about ergegenic aids), and that many of these drugs that are banned among other sports may be used regularly by top climbers.

i think what your getting at is that when people go out cragging/ mountaineering what difference does that make taking these drugs.... i have to agree in some ways not alot.
But in some ways i think people do care (i certainly do) as we look up to some of these top performers to set the standards in climbing. In my personal opinion the use of performance enhancing drugs such as anabolic steroids is cheating, maybe not technically (as they arn't in a performing in a competition) but are you not cheating the challenge of climbing the route in the first place?

In reply to samrad:
Speed?
Cocaine?

Even with PED you still need to work hard to be aquire and retain fittness.
I would say personally its not quite right, but they wont turn a 6a climbing in to 8a+ climbing in one quick jab, you still need a high level of commitment and talent.

In reply to fire_munki:
yep i get that that it still requires allot of commitment. i was meaning that the drugs boosted there performance. this allowing them to beat others in comps and climb harder routes outdoors, setting new standards that may not be possible without the drugs. but if thats what modern elite climbing has amounted to then i suppose i should just accept that.

but the idea of using drugs in that way makes me think less of many top athletes caught using them in many other sports. so why is it not the same with climbing?

In reply to samrad:

I would be more upset if it turned out that Ondra had left bits of finger tape lying around at the the bottom of a 9b than if it turned out he had used performance enhancing drugs to get up it.

In reply to samrad: i would imagine that performance enhancing drugs in climbing would largely result in exploding tendons!

In reply to tradattack:
why?

In reply to samrad: Being able to push yourself harder (due to increased muscular strenght, less weight - all the reasons above), whilst your tendons aren't affected by the drugs and thus can't put up with the strain you are placing on them.

On another note, I've used protein before and after climbing (meal dependant) and also used creatine - it wasn't just to boost my climbing, but for other sports! I did however notice marked improvements in my bouldering strength, so may be worth a look.

In reply to samrad:
I damaged/tore or ligaments/tendons in my hand and have steroid injections every now and again (At the Doctors surgery). The injections dont seem to have enhanced my climbing.

In reply to samrad:

Erik B and I experimented unsuccessfully with betel nut as a potential performance enhancer for winter climbing.

steroids also allow you to train with greater frequency and intensity, which is of critical performance in climbing, so I would see them as a great benefit

In reply to crisp:
how do you know it hasn't effected your climbing? hasn't it allowed you to deal with an injury...

the detaining effect of not climbing/ not climbing as much or as hard because of the injury, which has lowered your performance when recovering from the injury.

but this is not the point i was trying to make in the first place. having the odd localized steroid injection to get over an injury will not cause a large enough physiological adaptation to the body to effect performance at an elite level (although having an injury will obviously effect performance...)

having localized steroid injections when required is a very useful way to aid recovery from some types of injury.

you would have to be taking performance enhancing drugs regularly and in more quantity to really effect performance.

In reply to hokipoki:

i have reason to believe that tendons are affected by steroids. and if you are carrying less weight then surely in many ways there will be less strain put upon the tendons in the first place...

In reply to samrad:

So far, I don't think there's a drug that reduces your attractiveness to gravity, so I wouldn't worry

In reply to samrad: Has anyone tried Citrulene Mallate during training sessions?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20386132

In reply to samrad: a non climbing mate had a dodgy shoulder injury and he injected deca direct into his shoulder.it helped a lot.
Some steroids over a cycle will make you put on 2 stone with the right food and training.so that's no good for climbing.
Some will cut you up,like winny.
I've thought about them before but the risks are too big.when you have to take tablets based on a pregnant womans piss to get your sack working again,you something aint right

In reply to samrad:


In fact it won't affect it at all in the way you are imagining because you'll receive a catabolic steroid. Bodybuilders use anabolic.

In reply to mark s:
.


HGC is optional and its injectable rather than tablet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_chorionic_gonadotropin

more commonly a SERM such as Tamoxifen would be taken post cycle

In reply to samrad:

Overall, the answer to your question is going to be "no". Granted, that may not be the right answer, but then nobody knows what the question is anyway, and even if they did, the consensus would be "no". This thread will not answer the question, but you might learn a bit about "performance enhancing drugs" along the way (given that you don't seem to know much about them..and nor do I...)

In reply to samrad: Just out of interest, is caffeine allowed before contests? Because caffeine is a drug, and depending on your tolerence it can be pretty strong.

In reply to samrad:
I am taking anti depression tablets and beta blockers for panic attacks I am convinced the beta blockers help with panic etc while leading!

In reply to rednip120372:
Best thread ive read on here for a long time...

I agree with the beta blockers in leading, being calm is a key aspect.

I did read an article recently about ampethamines being given to soldiers to boost their activity, march longer, boost confidence and energy levels. I imagine this could also be used in a mountaineering sence.

But anythign to keep your palms dry and stop sweat going in your eyes would also be useful

In reply to samrad:

as far as i know tendons are still not nearly as effected as muscle - muscle grows much faster than tendon anyway so if you then enhance muscle growth the tendon will dwefinitely not have a chance to catch up and the potential for damage is quite high. its a common problem among body builders who use steroids.

having said that if you had been climbing a few years before taking drugs then your tendons will probably have developed sufficiently to handle the strain.

In reply to samrad:

I'm sorry but this thread seems to be highly complacent. try reading Rough Ride by Paul Kimmage and then tell me that drugs in sport is a personal decision.

For one drugs in sport are game changers. Professional cycling at the end of the 20th century was at such a higher level than amateur that everyone with any hope of 'making it' was forced to take drugs. Nobody seems to have any sense of the sport at that level, they became experts at pharmacology instead. The sport reached its most ridiculous in the criterion races at the end of the season, where the pro's entered exhibition races against the local amateurs. The result of the race being agreed before the start between the pro's with absolutely no fear that the non pro's could effect the decision.

Who knows how many genuinely talented amateur cyclists never made it to profesional circuit because the either refused to take drugs, or just didn't have the opportunity to take them. we may feel that we don't have a professional circuit but how many climbers do we see celebrated on UKC for their inspirational ascents. if performance enhancers take hold in climbing there will be a unbridgeable gulf of grades between the celebrated climbers and the not-celebrated. What then would be the pressure on the talented amateur to shoot up, just to be noticed.

And to say that climbing is non competative is really missing the point. There are plenty of rewards for being at the top, not least amoungst them being celebrated, lauded, respected, idolised ..... And how awful would it be if all of that is built on lies and drugs. How could we aspire, because we wont know what grade is a good grade, and what grade is a fake grade.

I realise that this seems a bit prophet of doom stuff, but as in cycling, once drugs have take hold its impossible to clean it up.

And finally we should spare a thought for the ex-pro cyclists, who have slipped from the pro circuit without hitting the big time. how many of them have ruined health and drug addictions that blight their lives for years after. Quite a few if we believe Paul Kimmage.

In reply to samrad:

First ascent of the Eigerwand - amphetamines were used.

In reply to SuperstarDJ: haha, plenty of that. went to a moffat lecture where he showed a video of them training on a woody in the basement....some nasal rocket fuel was definitely involved!

In reply to dj rivum: beta blocker will work though they are a touch addictive, they are prescribed to nervous musicians/performers when stage fright gets out of control.

amphetamines were used "allegedly" by a well known now dead scottish climber of the 60s. look at the photos then work out how old he was and then decide if taking them (or giving them to soldiers) a good move...

diamox is used to speed acclimatisation by some. creatine makes you stronger but increases fluid in the body so for climbing the weight penalty is unlikley to be worth unless it's only powerful bouldering.

some alpinists use sleeping tablets for the more horrendous bivvies / pre climb nervous sleeps.

In reply to Flashy:

As a climbing dad I'm delighted that my kids are on the comp circuit. They keep fit, have goals, meet loads of other great kids, travel here there and everywhere and get amazing opportunities to climb outdoors. There is usually a great display of climbing at any comp. Seeing 12 & 13 year olds climbing 7c is a pleasure to watch. Everyone cheers them on. These kids are the future of our sport. I see friendships being formed that will one day lead them off on great climbing adventures on their own. I'm 100% behind it.


The school of thought that competitive sport shouldn't be encouraged because it made the fat kids feel bad never really took off!

In reply to SuperstarDJ:

And Nanga Parbat.

Mick

In reply to mutt:

I can't help thinking that climbing dangerous routes is a similar situation to taking PEDs. You've still got to put lots of effort in, you've got to manage risk(s), there's a possibility of it becoming perceived as necessary to make a name for yourself.

In reply to Mick Ward:

However, in those days amphetamines were probably not seen as doping or cheating. It always depends on the context. Artificial oxygen helps much more on Nanga Parbat than amphetamines and it is not considered doping at the moment in mountaineering although it would be considered to be doping if someone tried to break the 1 h cycle record at altitude with an oxygen bottle on the back.

Generally the advantage of British style trad summer and winter climbing is that it does not require a high muscle mass nor a high aerobic endurance. Thus the arguably worst doping agents, namely anabolic steroids and EPO/blood doping are not effective.

In reply to mutt:

One could argue that this would be a good thing; if all the big numbers were taken with a large pinch of salt, it might undermine the professionalism and commercialism which seems to be steadily eroding the traditional anarchic spirit of climbing. The focus might switch back to just going out and climbing for the joy and personal challenge of it and not giving a damn what the so called "sponsored heros" are up to. In fact, if everyone had this approach, the incentive to take dangerous drugs might diminish. I think there are far bigger things to worry about in climbing than whether a few top climbers are taking performance enhancing drugs.

In reply to hwackerhage:

If someone wants to whizz up an 8000m peak on illegal amphetamines, then that is absolutely fine by me. A big expedition with the pyramid of clutter that goes with the legal use of oxygen is anoither matter altogether......

In reply to samrad:

Rather surprised that nobody (apart from me earlier) has mentioned weed. Some pretty high profile climbers swear by the odd toke between tries (as a muscle relaxant I gather).

In reply to jonny2vests:

Didnt Sharma get disqualified from a competition when he was younger for smokin weed?

It definitely goes well with bouldering! And perhaps sport. I've found it seems to help with awareness of your body position and movement, and yeah you can relax on the moves more. But it can have an effect on your concentration on trad a bit. For best results use immediately post-climb at the top of the crag while the endorphines are flowing, your blood is racing, your arms are pumped and the sun is setting.

In reply to samrad: Using oxygen cannisters in high altitude mountiaineering would count as a performance enhancing drug. Is this still considered a fair play or not?

In reply to hwackerhage:


Completely agree. I know that some more 'normal' climbers used speed in the Alps in the 1950s. They'd have been horrified at the notion they'd been cheating.

Different story now though as we undoubtedly know better.

Mick

In reply to Mike Goldthorp: quite entertaining one easy trad. not recommended when pushing your grade!

In reply to Mick Ward:

Are you joking?

In reply to Robert Durran:

No. Are you?

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

No.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well, that's two of us then. Happy bunnies, huh?

Adios.

Mick

In reply to jonny2vests: In Spain it commonplace to have a spliff before climbing!

In reply to Anonymous:


Where there's evidence to suggest that their use leads to adverse health effects I would imagine.

In reply to crisp: Different type of steroids, these would be corticosteroiods not anabolic steroids, though still banned.

In reply to Mike Goldthorp:

Myself and a number of friends have noticed a significant improvement in grade after being prescribed anti-depressants. I definitely think that for climbers with a slightly anxious disposition they can have the surprising side effect of improving your climbing ability. I would love to see some research on this.

In reply to Mick Ward:

And many others. They were rife in Himalayan climbing. Read loads where they were used. Bonningtons medicine lists from his expos contained amphetamines although I could only guess to their use.

In reply to The_JT:

Dear lord. I'm only in my 20s but I feel like a reactionary old sod in my 60s when I read stuff like this. I understand why people might want to 'make a name' for themselves, but they're engaged in a dramatically different sport to the one I practise!

There's no such thing as cheating when climbing provided you're honest about how you did it. A mate of mine onsighted London Wall when he was otherwise struggling at VS. He was, however, honest about the fact that he was stood in etriers the entire time. At the very worst you're only 'cheating' yourself, and why would anyone care about that?

In reply to Removed UserGRUMPY MONKEY:


iirc there was a study a few years ago which strongly suggested SSRI's could improve climbing, i believe the reason behind it was actually due to SSRI's altering risk perception more than directly reducing anxiety

In reply to samrad:
This isn't really a organised sport, and as the kudos is gained for outside comp routes, people are possibly more doped up in comparison with Olympic athletes. Steroids can be taken comfortably for old injuries. Pain killers can be popped like smarties. Recreational drugs are just as prevalent as in the rest of society (about as common as a cuppa really). All due to the fact that no one gets tested.

However if you look at most climbers in later life they look, despite the odd limp and scar, surprisingly well preserved. Hardly what I would expect if they were knocking back bennies in the 80's or booking themselves in for EPO shots in the 90's. Personally I think that the need to keep your shit together is such a major factor in climbing that taking something that makes you a little bit mental is a worry so most climbers keep reasonably clean.

In reply to samrad: I've used beta blockers successfully for a while. I found they calmed me down on lead. It sometimes went the other way and I lost the motivation and drive to do a route! Pro golfers get tested for beta blockers, I got the idea from a golfer mate. I did not start wearing slacks and tank tops though

In reply to jonny2vests: Canabis most definitely has it's uses! Not just as a muscle relaxant either. It helps to calm and focus the mind and can even boost confidence (as long as it's not overdone!)

In reply to G Clifton-Sprigg: Other uses: psychosis, brain damage etc

In reply to Bomber: Indeed along with many other harmful side effects that generally only effect heavy users. Prolonged drug abuse (including legal drugs such as caffeine) has been proven time and again to be bad for health but that doesn't stop me from my morning coffee. I'm sure there are lots of little things we do every day to shorten our lives, however life is boring with no risk as we all should know well! So if you want to enhance (or worsen) your climbing and your only a hobby climber go ahead! It's your life!

In reply to samrad:

seems performancing enhancing drugs DURING climbing has a bad name for itself.

and yet performance dulling drugs AFTER climbing are all good and well.

In reply to Guy Atkinson:

Speed is excellent for losing weight.

My mate told me.

In reply to samrad:

I was thinking about this earlier. It seems that drugs taints almost all sports and i guess i just didn't want to accept the fact that climbers were the kind to take them. I've heard local Spanish sport climbers will take steroids at their own local bar. Bulk themselves up for all that steep, pocket pulling, babe attracting sunny climbing.

In reply to samrad:

steroids need not just be used for competition, but for injury recovery.

i was always wondering about baseball players using steroids - to stand in a field half a day???
then i found out it was to deal with injuries that could shorten their (well paid) season.

bare in mind that 'steroids' is an umbrella term for everything from human growth hormone to interferon to dexmethazone - so its a pretty broad stroke of the brush, as it were.

In reply to samrad: Hi there
I take steriods every day and have done for the last 3years for a disease that causes imflamation when the disease flares up and have to take a lot of steriods my climbing goes downhill,i loose all cordination steriods might work for weight training ioom sprint.but its like borrowing from the bank you have to pay it back in the long run. dont be tempted anyone,says doctor doug the mug

Bigger, Stronger, Faster:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1151309/

While previously I'd been quite anti performance enhancing drugs, watching that movie/doco tempered my opinion a lot.

In the scheme of things, it doesn't seem so bad. We give people drugs because they're not happy enough, or can't concentrate, and it's very well accepted by society. What's wrong with giving someone drugs because they're not strong enough? If anything I'd have thought them safer than the brain chemistry altering ones, given that muscles are much easier to understand than ones brain.


I was surprised to notice "Climbing: Training for Peak Performance (Mountaineers Outdoor Expert) by Clyde Soles (Sep 2008)" had the following line in it:
"modafinil is a new drug that can keep you awake for
several days withouth the nasty effects associated with amphetamines."

If you're going to climb a mountain no matter what, it seems reasonable to me that taking some performance enhancing drugs could overall make it safer.

In reply to simes303:

Perhaps but it also makes your teeth explode.

and you talk shite.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Couldn't agree more.

In reply to samrad: I want to see genetically engineered climbers with gecko skin fingers and toes!