UKC

I was reading and replied to a recent thread regarding rock shoe sizes.

I recently tried on a few different sizes of these shoes and bought the pair that fitted me best. I actually got them quite tight fitting as my previous shoes stretched too much.

The size I bought was the same size as my everyday street shoes.

Some of the advice on the thread is to get them up to one and a half sizes down on your normal shoe size.
Please don't think I am having a pop at the advice given I am not. I am just curious as to how tight do people have their shoes? I have not been climbing long and am a pure punter but in all honesty if I had these shoes one and a half sizes down they would be absolute murder on my feet if I could even get them on!!

cheers


G

In reply to Gazlynn:

What shoes are they?

My evolves are a size up from my trainers

Paul

In reply to Gazlynn: for the grade your climbing get a snug fitting but comfortable pair.

In reply to Gazlynn: the problem with going with the advice that you should go x sizes bigger/smaller than your normal size is that this assumes all shoe manufacturer uses the same last!! I.E. its total bollox.

you should buy them, new, as tight as you can stand on an edge comfortably (maybe a little on the tight side) in the shop and wear them around the house for a few hours over a couple days and if they don't stretch to a comfortable size then take them back and try a different size!

In reply to Gazlynn: You are sensible. A lot if not most young climbers wear overtight and overtechnical shoes. I can understand it for precice highly technical footwork but thats only a fraction of the ability range: the others are just stupid and wrecking their feet. Bunions, athritis and other nasties await. Worse still the market distortion means comfy standard all-round all-day climbing shoes are harder to get: less choice and higher prices for those of us who are sensible as well. Most people should also be wearing socks... it stops the shoes stinking, keeps your feet warm and keeps midges off your ankles and bearly affects technique on easier climbs. If big Ron can climb 7a with socks on its good enough for anyone below 5c.

In reply to Gazlynn:

All brands and even models are different sizes. Go for whatever is best. I think comfortably uncomfortable is what I go for.... can spend a few hours in them but wouldn't choose to if I didn't have to.

If you are boulkdering then you can afford to go painfully tight as you only wear them for 1 minute and then can slip them off.... trad and especially multi-pitch trad you need something that isn't so uncomfortable that they will be a distraction

In reply to Gazlynn:

Ignore whatever size is printed on the box/shoe. The only thing to judge a shoe on is fit. I am about size 7 in street shoes, but have climbing shoes that range from 5 to 7.5.

You want a shoe that is snug all over, with no empty space anywhere. For performance, you want your toes slightly curled, but for an all day shoe flat is better. Any hint of pain in the shop when you are trying them on, then change size or model - it'll only get worse when you are wearing them for 30 minutes or more.

Anyone who advises you on what size shoe to wear based on your normal shoe size is stuck in the 80s/early 90s. Ignore them.

In reply to Gazlynn: I bought some Sportiva Muira's in size 40. My shoe size is 42. At first they were uncomfortable but after a couple of weeks in the South of France they are now very, very comfortable and I suspect that if I had gone for comfort when I tried them on they would now be useless.

Al

In reply to Gazlynn: Yes you are...just kidding.... Different brands stretch in different ways. Snug is good enough at punter level. Oh, and make sure you try them on with the regular thickness of sock that you climb in, if you are a sock wearing type. When you get to the higher E's, that's when you need to carry a Swiss Army pocket knife to whittle off bits of you feet to fit the shoes just before wearing them to climb! Good luck.

In reply to Gazlynn: Ignore the totally bollocks "rule", every shoe, every last and every foot is different. The only rule is to get something suitable for YOU, forget about the sizes.

My trainers are a size 8, my 5.10 Coyote's are a 7 and fit like a comfortable glove, my Anasazi's are an 8 and are completely unwearable they're so crushingly painful yet my Newtons are a size 8 and are only mildly uncomfortable.

Go figure!

In reply to Styx:

Yet your profile lists nothing you couldn't climb in in 5.10 guide approach shoes. Why wreck your feet in those Anasazis???

As others have said try them on starting around your normal shoe size and work from there. I used to have some spirit lace ups which were a size 6. Replaced those with corona's and because they are more technical i thought i'd need smaller, ended up with a 7 but could have done with a 7.5 left and 7 right. A pair that may fit really badly could become perfect in the right size for you. Put aside a good hour in a shop with a good selection in lots of sizes and staff who arent pushy.

In reply to Gazlynn:

Just to echo all the other advice just try them on. I wear a 10 in normal shoes & last time I bought shoes Evolvs Pontas were only just comfortable in an 11 whereas the La Sportiva Katana I ended up with were 8.5, and far more comfortable at that.

In reply to Gazlynn:

My shoe size is 8.5. I've got that in most things including climbing shoes. I wouldn't worry about it at all, just make sure that your climbing shoes are comfy.

In reply to antdav:

Another one with a best profile onsight of VS who wears technical shoes giving advice like an expert. Keep them coming. I'm a useless old punter and still solo the odd VS with approach shoes. I'll try and upload a photo of Chris FitzHughs shoes: patches on patches on patches, sliced at the back to deal with a tendon problem, padded out with walking socks, he now in his 70's and for various reasons very reliant on footwork, and still leads VS sometimes.

A pair that fits badly might never become right and thats money down the drain and damage to your feet. Get non-technical shoes that don't stretch much and fit snuggly, preferably wearing socks. If you start climbing stuff that needs technical footwear (certainly nothing below UK 5c) then you can upgrade and keep the comfy shoes for mountain days.

In reply to Offwidth: I don't climb in them, simples.

In retrospect they were a poor purchase and unsuitable for the kind of climbing I do. Most of my climbs are done in my Camp 4's. The Anasazi's only ever come out of the bag for 6c'ish routes indoors.

In reply to Offwidth: Apologies, obviously us mortals forget that without twenty years experience of climbing E grades we're unfit to offer advice, sigh.

In reply to Offwidth:

I suppose it's a sign of the increasing focus upon 'technicality' that bombards us in the shops. If I had to climb a route that had footholds the size of the shops' 'try out edges' all the way I think I'd burst my mental boiler in about 20 feet. Genuinely tiny footholds are thankfully few and far between and, excluding thin slabs, I can't think of a route I've fallen off because i couldn't stand on a hold. And, quite frankly, with regards to the thin slab in question (and its stupid matchstick edge hold at shoulder height) I suspect a different shoe wouldn't have made enough differnce anyway (some daft thing in Grimsel).

Get a sense of perspective and go with something wearable. Next time you go out, have a good look at what seems to be a small foothold and think what that really means in terms of fit. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

As far as what shoe to wear indoors - well as long as it's more shoe than hole it'll do.

In reply to Gazlynn:
Shoe sizing suggestions on here can be a bit confusing, I think a large part of this is down to people not actually knowing how big their feet are!

Normal shoes have a length and width, but probably more important for rock shoes is the volume of the foot and the toe profile. I have size 12.5 feet and wear a size 11 in 5.10 Anasazis/Galileos and Evolve Defys. I could probably go a half size smaller in the Galileos and Defys as they are more generous around the little toes, but can't get into White Anasazis or Evolve Pontas without going up a half size because they are more 'pointed' at the toe.

How arched you foot is will also make a lot of difference with flat footed people experiencing entirely different spreading under load to someone with a normal-high arch.

Find what works for you and then stick with it till it stops working (or they discontinue the shoes). Your feet will probably change in shape as you climb more making more 'extreme' shoes more bearable but don't overdo it.

In reply to All:

Some great replies

In reply to Offwidth:

Great Advice.

I can only speak for myself but when I first started climbing about 2 years ago I bought some Scarpa Vantage rock shoes that were mega comfy and could wear them all day with no problems but as I progressed (I know I haven't progressed much outdoors) indoors I found that the Vantages had stretched a bit and where rubbish at smearing and edging so I lost confidence in them.
I will be honest I then read all the different rock shoe reviews and get caught up in the hype a little a start to think I will be climbing E number grades in a couple of months time (which is never going to happen) So I decide on a more " Technical Shoe " The 5.10 Blancos, Which I love but they are a little tight and whilst on a multi pitch climb a couple of weeks ago I had to take them off in between pitches and for lunch. I don't even know if this is the norm??
I appreciate that the climb was only a Severe and I also appreciate that probably people have done the route in wellies.
So I have decided to get a new pair of shoes and save the blancos for cragging and make sure I get them ultra comfy for multi pitch use but not as comfy so they are rubbish at edging or smearing purely for confidence


cheers

G

In reply to Gazlynn: I have comfortably climbed up to E2 in shoes that I can wear all day long. I personally don't subscribe to the argument that you must wear shoes 1 size too small. Climbing is about climbing, not about continually putting on and taking off your shoes because they hurt.

In reply to nniff:

Remember it's not all about trad climbing - there's bouldering and sport climbing too.

In general I agree with you - I do most of my climbing in Red Chili Spirits as they fit my feet almost perfectly. I do have other shoes for pushing things on edges or smears though - technical shoes do make a difference.

I do think that there is more to it though. A tight, well-fitting or technical shoe allows you to learn and develop your footwork, but once that footwork is well developed you can revert quite easily to climbing well in less technical or bigger/baggier shoes. I firmly believe that learning to climb in ill-fitting/overly stiff shoes hinders the development of good footwork though.

In reply to Styx:

I'm a serial lower grade leader and keen low grade boulderer. I lead a few extremes a year on average, mainly new routes or sandbag 5.7/5.8 R's in the US; I've never cleanly climbed a proper french 6c (could do but I find working sports routes very very boring). So I'm just saying think about your advice. No-one at our level needs compressing technical shoes and everyone should be wearing socks for comfort and cleanliness, all for the health and future of our feet.... yet look around you at the punters indoors.... how did this madness happen???

I'm passionate about the subject as I've got bunions now, partly from the same mistakes when I started, and I've seen numerous club beginners in my old Uni club (gear sec for 15 years) ripped off by climbing shops (and accompanied a few to get their money back and give the manager an earful... an annual gear budget was a powerful incentive to listen).

In reply to EeeByGum:

continually putting on and taking off your shoes because they hurt.


I am confused

Maybe this is all in my head and I have been caught up in all the shite but I see this all the time at the Indoor Wall and crag and it's the better climbers that are doing this.
So I realize it's very childish but my thoughts are I will get a pair of those shoes because Dave McLure or who ever wears them as I need all the help I can to make me a better climber.

cheers

G

In reply to Offwidth:

While I tend to agree with the general advice that extremely tight shoes are simply unnecessary for lower-grade trad climbing, and can turn a pleasure into a horrible experience, I disagree with your 'nothing below 5c' statement. When I was moving up from 4c to 5a and 5a to 5b and so on, many years ago, I certainly noticed the benefits of slightly tighter shoes on certain routes. It was boost to my confidence, part genuine, and part placebo.

Fortunately for me, the days of cramming my size sevens into 5.5 Asolo Runouts and Ninjas are long gone, though. That, I'll concede, was definately a step too far.

In terms of other practical advice to the OP, even if you find you can edge in only slight discomfort in tight shoes, the acid test for me is - can you bend the foot and smear in them without crying?

In reply to Gazlynn:

I'm not convinced of the usefulness of this, as it hasn't helped me much but it gives you an idea. Offwidth is mostly right, although I doubt the time spent in rock shoes would make any difference to causing bunions.

http://info.rockrun.com/articles/rock-shoe-sizing-guide.html

In reply to Offwidth:

Or maybe i spent many hours in many shops trying to find a pair of shoes that fit me because i have awkwardly narrow feet and most entry level shoes are based around comfort and tend to not offer a snug fit which is what pretty much everyone on this forum is saying.

It just so happened that Corona's which are way off from being a highly technical shoe, were right for me, it's not like i went to buy a pair of Team's because i feel i'm now experienced or climb at a high enough grade to warrant them.

Peoples experience in gear is not always related to their maximum grade and there is more to shoes than trad. Surely someone who has recently been in the same position as the OP is just as (or possibly more) qualified to respond as someone who forms an opinion based on a list of numbers and letters.

In reply to Monk:

"I firmly believe that learning to climb in ill-fitting/overly stiff shoes hinders the development of good footwork though." Hinders in what way if we are talking modern, snug-fitting entry level climbing shoes? Stops you getting to the level where you need a tighter technical shoe? Stops you focussing on foot placement when you need to?? I don't think so, unless the opposite end of ill-fitting applies: the shoes are so tight your feet are too painful after a few minutes to use. Also how did people ever survive in EBs or PA's. Seeing all these punters limping around in weird footwreckers makes me want to weep.

In reply to Offwidth: All deoends where you climb and what you climb on and what you want to do.

Its down to the individual and IMHO your view represents one extreme of the spectrum. I think that technical shoes can definitely make a differnece, definitely more so in bouldering, indoor bouldering and sport climbing. I have felt a massive difference when borrowing wall shoes having forgotten mine.

I would strongly agree with what others have said about the massive variation in differnt shoes/makes/models and it all depends on the shape of your foot. Also you do need to buy them tight as they will stretch but different people haver very different definitions of tight!

In reply to tradattack:

I think that's one of the problems with advice on shoes, 'tight' is very subjective.

In reply to Offwidth:

I think both ends of the spectrum are true. If your shoes are too big and roll around on your feet or are overly stiff then you don't get the feedback necessary for learning to use smaller holds effectively which can hinder your progression. Conversely, shoes that are too tight mean you don't use your feet properly either.

There is an area in the middle that works best where shoes are snug and don't have excessive space in them, but aren't crippling. I suspect most people end up there eventually through trial and error,.

FWIW, I wear Anasazis and have done for about 7 years now (as a VS/HVS ish punter) because they fit me well and I find them comfy...more so than any of the entry-level shoes I have tried which I usually find are too narrow, and too low-volume to fit my feet and too stiff for my taste.

In reply to Offwidth:

I imagine I'm one of those you see puntering around on VSs in technical shoes that make you want to punch me.

If it makes you feel any better I just have very strangely shaped feet, and Scarpa Boosters 2 1/2 sizes smaller than my normal shoes just happen to be very comfy (as well as giving me no excuse other than my own lack of skills for my bad footwork).

Just so you can sleep a bit easier...

In reply to antdav:

"A pair that may fit really badly could become perfect in the right size for you." is poor advice to give anyone operating at punter level and decidely odd coming from a punter... that is the reason I responded to your post (as an experienced punter).

When I was a year or so in I didn't fully understand the problems of tight shoes for punters, I do now. Snug to me is limited movement where your toes and heel just contact the end of the shoe and you can wear the shoe in relative comfort all day (mileage is one key to improvement!). Ideally fit them with thin socks then if they stretch a little, wear thicker socks! If and when you get better, get some technical shoes then.

Another good shoe story that highlights how crucial they are.. one of our club proteges won the Edge bouldering comp and onsighted up to E6 with shoes that were far from ideal, he couldn't afford better being a poor student.

In reply to victim of mathematics:

Thats fair enough but you wont be linping around if they fit will you. Punching is long way off, I want to hug them.

In reply to Offwidth:


I climb in very well fitting Red Chilli Spirits the vast majority of the time, but there are times when they are just not sensitive enough/stiff enough/soft enough to use certain holds. If all you ever climb in are these shoes, then you will never realise that there are perfectly good footholds that you are not using. Using a more technical shoe allows you to experience those different holds and work out how to use them. I guess this is more of a problem for intermediate climbers though. I would agree that a well fitting basic shoe will take most people a long way.


Obviously that applies too


It's no secret that Fires changed climbing, as you are well aware.

I guess that we are broadly of the same opinion. A decent, snug, well-fitting shoe is what most people need, especially for low grade trad where you can get away with quite a lot and a basic shoe is actually preferable to a more technical shoe. I do strongly believe that ill-fitting shoes hinder the development of good footwork for many people. I also believe that technical shoes have their place.

In reply to Monk:

Probably... I bet you rarely if ever need that feel below V1 or 5c though? It's over-tight technical shoes for punters I have a real problem with. I suspect my 'snug fit' would be the same as your 'well fitted' in the context of punters. Like Victim and kathyrnc... its not so much the shoe that matters, it's that it fits your feet properly for hours without pain.

"It's no secret that Fires changed climbing, as you are well aware."

Yep.. a few top climbers could climb a grade harder and the UK adjectival grades for the friction routes affected around that time in general actually went up, some by a few grades (eg 4 Pebble).

In reply to Gazlynn:

I am a UK 5/Euro 38 in most regular footwear. My climbing shoes have varied from UK 4.5 to 6 depending on the brand. With Red Chili of Mad Rock I wear about the same size as normal. With Scarpa and Boreal I need a 39.

My outdoor climbing shoes are mega comfy and can be worn all day without pain. My indoor ones tend to be a bit tighter - I don't have to walk off a crag in them! However, I can still wear them all evening without any issue. I don't wear socks unless I'm outdoors and it's really cold.

I also don't think the shoes are what prevents me getting up harder stuff... I suspect that better footwork, more guts and some technique would get me a lot further than any pair of shoes will.

As others have said the size on the box is nothing more than a guideline.
I'm a 7.5 and have fitted everything from a UK4.5 to a UK8, usually though I normally take around a 6 or 7 in rockshoes.

One manufacturer which does stand out as consistently poor in it's sizing is LaSportiva - I can almost guarantee you will want to buy their rockshoes a full 2 sizes smaller than with any other manufacturer.

It's not just manufacturers which differ though, even between models you might want up to a size difference to get a comparable fit.

In reply to Offwidth:

My god that made you sound like an arse

I climb VS and the most suitable shoes for my odd foot shape have been 5.10 Gambits CLOSELY followed by Anasazis. more 'punterish' shoes such as Scarpa Helix, boreal Jokers and Red Chili somethings have been well down the list of comfort

In reply to Gazlynn:

Basically, I think you've done the right thing and tried on loads of pairs and got the best fitting ones. A first purchase isn't something you want to do online (unless there's free returns and you can be arsed to keep trying em on for a few weeks) and a knowledgable shop assistant comes into their own at this point.

I tried on everything up to intermediate in the shop and settled on the evolv Bandits. They were less comfortable standing up than some but most comfortable on a reasonable edge. Same size as the Doc Martens I walked in wearing.

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

Was it this bit that was especially arse sounding?: "Like Victim and kathyrnc... its not so much the shoe that matters, it's that it fits your feet properly for hours without pain."

I stand by my original point though that punters limping around in technical shoes that are clearly too tight is especially depressing.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

That's another depressing thing about modern shoe purchases. Take advantage of your local climbing shop to fit the shoes then buy online.

In reply to Offwidth:

That's something I refuse to do. It might save you £10 at the time but when that shop goes under who the f*ck is going to advise you well then? Field & Trek?

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle: Good on you. Wish all climbers would think that way.

In reply to Gazlynn:

What fun this was to read!

I had a pair of Scarpa vantage and loved them, still have them but like you they stretched and I lost a little bit of faith in them. I mainly boulder and wanted to help myself into moving a grade or so higher so felt a more technical pair was needed. Could do at best V5 in the Scarpa and only once mainly V2/V3 or below.
I bought some 5.10 Anaszis and had them fitted at Needlesports (I had asked on the bouldering forum which people preferred and gathered this evidence together and tried quite a few pairs on.
The Anaszi's are on the whole uncomfortable and too small but a friend of mine said 'Your feet have tog et used to be squahed up slightly' He's right, whether I need to have them so small though is another matter.
They are the same as my shoe size, they work but only in small doses and I wouldn't use them for Trad climbing at all!!!

In reply to Offwidth: I had Fires at around the time that I was climbing hardest. All my E-numbers were in Fires. Perfect fit. Then I lost them in a house-move. And they don't make them any more. "sob".
Anyone got a pair of size 7 Fires in their attic? I too have strange shaped feet and now wear size 8.5 boots on feet that are 7 in court shoes or ladies sandals. Wide feet a benefit in gritstone cracks however.

In reply to Gazlynn:
I recently went into v12 to get fitted for a pair of shoes for single pitch trad, bouldering and sport climbing. After trying on many pairs the best fitting shoe for my foot was the anasazi blanco v2. The guy in the shop thought it was strange thay I found them comfortable, but they just felt great on my feet.
They felt a more comfortable out the box then my chili spirits did and I even went down 1.5 size in the anasazi's compared to my chilis at street size.
I know some people might say that they are an overkil for the grades I climb, but they feel very comfortable and have given me a huge boost in confidence

In reply to wazzalad20:

I've always thought you climb better if you can feel the rock through your toes rather than only feel pain through yer toes! Most important for me is that shoes do'nt roll round the foot .. and that seems to be a function of the type of shoe rather than its size.

Being a hobbit footed wide footed size 6 , I find womwns rock shoes by far the most comfortable ..Lady Spirit is my particular weapon of choice... but footwear and its sizing is not the most important factor in how well I climb!

In reply to JimR: I definetely agree, I have a pair of stretched out red chilis which are horribly baggy and have the worst rubber in the world. They just seem to slip off any form of rock like you are on ice
As you can imagine I am having fun in the anasazi's and they feel so much better on my foot

In reply to wazzalad20: By the way my lace up red chili spirits seem to be an older model and have completely different rubber to all the other models. I bought them in a sale and they were horrific.haha. I have climbed in the spirit velcros and found them to be pretty good.

In reply to Gazlynn:

I have a pair of old jokers that are a bit worse for wear now and I keep thinking I should change them.

I was at The Works last weekend sitting watching people on the cometition wall and this guy comes over wearing thick trainers and proceeds to flash problems everyone else is failing on. I'm going to stop complaining about my shoes and start training more.

In reply to Gazlynn:
Like what most people are saying, it depends on brand and model.

A tight but comfy fit for me is size:
43 scarpa vantage
45 edelrid reptile (they are made 2 to 3 sizes smaller than most shoes! also going cheap £36 on the net! i recomend them for edging and all day performance)
42 scarpa booster
42.5 evolv bandit
43 street shoes

In reply to Tiberius: Yeah i think it's probably a confidence thing more than anything.

In reply to GazlynnO NOT WEAR YOU CLIMBING SHOES TO TIGHT....i did this for 2 years after being told you need to wear them quit tight...the out come...my right big toe nail slowly died off and eventually came off after catching it on the coffee table......incredibly painfull.!!..it took weeks before i could put my climbing shoes back on, but no way could i use them any more, the toe is far too tender..the nail has grown back but its a mess....im size 9 but the only climb shoes that i can put on now is size 12 red chillys... my other toe nail is going the same way and has half died off..i have to keep cutting the nail right down so i dont fetch that one off also...i really dont wana go thro that again...!!!! so as regards tight climbing shoes..dont do it..

In reply to ng24 guy:

I have cracked it !!!

After buying Anasazi, 5x and red chili something or others and then wince with pain everytime I place my foot on a hold or even contemplate smearing.

I decided to have a word with myself and thought do I really need a technical shoe for the grade I am climbing (VS tops)

Errrm NO

So I got myself some 5 10 Spire rock shoes and they feel like slippers.

I am well chuffed.

In reply to Gazlynn: I might be a crap old newbie but I can second the 5.10 Spires for comfort. I originally bought a pair half a size under my usual shoe size but they made my big toenails black on hot days (long toes, broad feet). I sold them to my mate and bought some more, a size bigger than shoe size, after trying on every other model in the shop. Nothing else I tried was close to a good fit on my feet. I wear them with socks unless it's very hot (feet expand with temperature). The fit on the heel is not great but I don't climb hard enough to worry about that. They are still tight enough at the front to make me want to take them off every couple of routes when cragging.

In reply to Gazlynn: "stretched too much", have you tried soaking them overnight and then drying them? They should shrink... Good luck.