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I'm sick of instant coffee and am considering a coffee machine. How much better is filter coffee than instant? Is it worth forking out the extra cash and getting an expresso machine or is filter just as good? Also what is the difference between £80 expresso machines and £500 ones? Is the taste much different?
In reply to jamiegoscote: filter coffee is a whole different drink. but you can get the benefit from a 10quid espresso maker - no need to shell out 500
In reply to jamiegoscote:
get one of these:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_9?url=search-alias%3Dkitchen&...
Better, cleaner and quicker than a stove top moka. Not as good as a £500 machine, but not £500 either; and you can take it camping.
get one of these:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_9?url=search-alias%3Dkitchen&...
Better, cleaner and quicker than a stove top moka. Not as good as a £500 machine, but not £500 either; and you can take it camping.
In reply to jamiegoscote:
great op: strung out, lots of questions, paranoid, demanding. spoken like a true jittering addict
so, one addict to another...
instant is a nasty, trashy buzz best kept for emergencies, portaledges and saving the good stuff from people who dont know any better.
filter is a quantum leap better than instant, and espresso that again from filter.
filter keeps the caffeine buzz of instant, with an appreciable gain in depth of quality. like comparing cheap champagne to the kind of wine you get as a gift.
espresso is the real thing. coffee how it should be. whereas instant depends on if the cups clean, and filter on the hardwear used, espresso depends on YOU.
are YOU up to it? to take the art of coffee in your own hands and be responsible for the outcome?
worth it? of course, its drugs. lack of quality is always what gives any drug a bad name.
go with quantity and expect erratic outcomes.
filter is not as good, can you live with that? personally i doubt people who can, but maybe its just me. coffee is very elitist. filter will do if its just about caffeine, but if its about coffee it wont.
no one pays to be served instant, and you pay for filter basicly because its necessary rent to get the free wifi and charge up on the caffeine.
espresso you pay for because its good.
the difference between 80 pound machines and 500 pound ones is in the seals, the filters, the quality of the workmanship and the pedigree. its like arcteryx to alpkit - it doesnt matter till you know the difference, then you suddenly see where you can go with it.
an expensive machine allows you more dexterity as the creator of your coffee - it puts you more in control. be aware, it takes years to draw out the nuances of a good machine. people dedicate their lives to the process.
does it taste different? yes it does, but like wine you need to develop the nose and palate. where it differs from wine is you get to experiment with the raw product yourself, finding that ideal blend from across several continents and all sorts of exploited peoples.
i say do it. maybe start with a cheaper end machine for a few years then get into the expensive stuff when youre ready, and by then you will appreciate it a bit more.
oh, and dont take any of this too seriously.
i am an addict afterall...
great op: strung out, lots of questions, paranoid, demanding. spoken like a true jittering addict
so, one addict to another...
instant is a nasty, trashy buzz best kept for emergencies, portaledges and saving the good stuff from people who dont know any better.
filter is a quantum leap better than instant, and espresso that again from filter.
filter keeps the caffeine buzz of instant, with an appreciable gain in depth of quality. like comparing cheap champagne to the kind of wine you get as a gift.
espresso is the real thing. coffee how it should be. whereas instant depends on if the cups clean, and filter on the hardwear used, espresso depends on YOU.
are YOU up to it? to take the art of coffee in your own hands and be responsible for the outcome?
worth it? of course, its drugs. lack of quality is always what gives any drug a bad name.
go with quantity and expect erratic outcomes.
filter is not as good, can you live with that? personally i doubt people who can, but maybe its just me. coffee is very elitist. filter will do if its just about caffeine, but if its about coffee it wont.
no one pays to be served instant, and you pay for filter basicly because its necessary rent to get the free wifi and charge up on the caffeine.
espresso you pay for because its good.
the difference between 80 pound machines and 500 pound ones is in the seals, the filters, the quality of the workmanship and the pedigree. its like arcteryx to alpkit - it doesnt matter till you know the difference, then you suddenly see where you can go with it.
an expensive machine allows you more dexterity as the creator of your coffee - it puts you more in control. be aware, it takes years to draw out the nuances of a good machine. people dedicate their lives to the process.
does it taste different? yes it does, but like wine you need to develop the nose and palate. where it differs from wine is you get to experiment with the raw product yourself, finding that ideal blend from across several continents and all sorts of exploited peoples.
i say do it. maybe start with a cheaper end machine for a few years then get into the expensive stuff when youre ready, and by then you will appreciate it a bit more.
oh, and dont take any of this too seriously.
i am an addict afterall...
In reply to jamiegoscote:
Unless you want specifically espresso or cappuccino, I would say just get yourself a cafetiere for a fiver from Tesco. Put decent coffee in it, and you're away - delicious filter coffee with very little faff. It might as least be worth a try before properly shelling out.
Tim
Unless you want specifically espresso or cappuccino, I would say just get yourself a cafetiere for a fiver from Tesco. Put decent coffee in it, and you're away - delicious filter coffee with very little faff. It might as least be worth a try before properly shelling out.
Tim
In reply to jamiegoscote: Proper espressomachines are expensive but filter is a million times better than instant anyway - don't be fooled by tassimo (basically instant) or senseo (poor filter coffee) - I've used one of these for the last 8 years or so
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bodum-Solo-filter-belgique-black/dp/B0001M0BC4/ref=...
and it's great... caffetiere is a good call too...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bodum-Solo-filter-belgique-black/dp/B0001M0BC4/ref=...
and it's great... caffetiere is a good call too...
In reply to ice.solo: Lol. Nice to know I'm not the only one who NEEDS coffee. I'll probably go for an expresso maker. The only thing holding me back is I usually take coffee in a thermos mug to work to drink while I'm on my way, but I've noticed most of the machines only have a small gap between the nozzle and base so you can only use small cups. Would the coffee be to diluted if you just poured two cups from the machine into one big mug or can you adjust the strength of the coffee from the machine?
In reply to jamiegoscote:
I occupy a desk next to a serious tea and coffee obsessive. He grinds his own coffee by hand, using a grinder with ceramic blades that cut rather than crush the coffee - apparently this avoids overheating the beans and preserves the oils for a better flavour.
He uses one of those aeropress things recommended above.
Tea is a whole different kettle of something.
I can't stand instant. We have a filter at home, but I quite like the Whittard one cup filter devices - good for taking climbing too
I occupy a desk next to a serious tea and coffee obsessive. He grinds his own coffee by hand, using a grinder with ceramic blades that cut rather than crush the coffee - apparently this avoids overheating the beans and preserves the oils for a better flavour.
He uses one of those aeropress things recommended above.
Tea is a whole different kettle of something.
I can't stand instant. We have a filter at home, but I quite like the Whittard one cup filter devices - good for taking climbing too
In reply to jamiegoscote:
An espresso machine makes the best coffee. An italian stovetop thingy next best. My £80 machine makes great coffee (try and find one that doesn't have too small a holder). After lots of experimenting with ready ground coffees I found them all to be too coarsely ground, passing through too quickly. I got an IberItal grinder (that grinds, not one with whizzy blades like a blender), which while a bit quirky does the job pretty well once you get used to it. There's some interesting and tasty beans in supermarkets - Sainsbury's Continental, Waitrose have several, Booth's have loads of different types. Taylors of Harrogate do some nice beans and now their ready ground espresso is actually the right fineness for a machine. So you don't need to buy expensive specialist beans.
An espresso machine makes the best coffee. An italian stovetop thingy next best. My £80 machine makes great coffee (try and find one that doesn't have too small a holder). After lots of experimenting with ready ground coffees I found them all to be too coarsely ground, passing through too quickly. I got an IberItal grinder (that grinds, not one with whizzy blades like a blender), which while a bit quirky does the job pretty well once you get used to it. There's some interesting and tasty beans in supermarkets - Sainsbury's Continental, Waitrose have several, Booth's have loads of different types. Taylors of Harrogate do some nice beans and now their ready ground espresso is actually the right fineness for a machine. So you don't need to buy expensive specialist beans.
In reply to jamiegoscote:
Well put, Toby & Icesolo [fantastic prose, by the way, class!].
never really got on with filter, it was good but could be too bitter/harsh/watery. Espresso is the real stuff and the Aeropress is brilliant.smooth, powerful, flavours. it fits any size cup/mug except, ironically, an espresso one . It makes up to 4 espresso 'shots' at a time: for 'ordinary' coffee, dilute it with hot water.
Please remember that is makes espresso, though...the first time I used it i mistook it for a cafetiere-type device and made a quadruple espresso....wheeee!!!!!!
Well put, Toby & Icesolo [fantastic prose, by the way, class!].
never really got on with filter, it was good but could be too bitter/harsh/watery. Espresso is the real stuff and the Aeropress is brilliant.smooth, powerful, flavours. it fits any size cup/mug except, ironically, an espresso one . It makes up to 4 espresso 'shots' at a time: for 'ordinary' coffee, dilute it with hot water.
Please remember that is makes espresso, though...the first time I used it i mistook it for a cafetiere-type device and made a quadruple espresso....wheeee!!!!!!
In reply to jamiegoscote:
And don't shoot me down/up for this, but has anyone found any decent *de*caffeinated ground coffee?
I tried the Taylors stuff and i thought it tasted of vegetables Maybe it was me, their other ones are good.
And don't shoot me down/up for this, but has anyone found any decent *de*caffeinated ground coffee?
I tried the Taylors stuff and i thought it tasted of vegetables Maybe it was me, their other ones are good.
In reply to thin bob:
dont shoot me down for THIS, but ive found the starbucks product drinkable.
for those insane enough to want such a thing that is...
(quadruple espresso huh? theres a good time right there)
dont shoot me down for THIS, but ive found the starbucks product drinkable.
for those insane enough to want such a thing that is...
(quadruple espresso huh? theres a good time right there)
In reply to ice.solo: Flipping heck! That's enough to make WANT to become an addict...
In reply to Green Porridge:
This is very sound advice. You've got a world of learning ahead of you, starting with just what sort of coffee you like; all those different types on the supermarket shelf do have distinct and different tastes and you need to find out what grooves your truffles.
Once you've done that, you're ready to move on; if you choose to. I save espresso for an indulgence and routinely use a cafetiere with Java coffee as that suits me just fine.
T.
> Unless you want specifically espresso or cappuccino, I would say just get yourself a cafetiere for a fiver from Tesco. Put decent coffee in it, and you're away
This is very sound advice. You've got a world of learning ahead of you, starting with just what sort of coffee you like; all those different types on the supermarket shelf do have distinct and different tastes and you need to find out what grooves your truffles.
Once you've done that, you're ready to move on; if you choose to. I save espresso for an indulgence and routinely use a cafetiere with Java coffee as that suits me just fine.
T.
In reply to thin bob:
I have one "normal" coffee in the morning for a "kick" to keep me going after a night on the road; after this, it's "decaff". Lavazza decaff "special espresso" is really quite good: excellent taste and aroma !
To the OP : I bought a £100 espresso machine and find the result more than satisfactory ! I think you will find that the cheaper machines opperate at much lower pressure ( around 3 bars) whilst a machine costing around £100 will use 15 bars. The resultant coffee is more concentrated. Another point to make is to press hard the ground-coffee before putting it into the machine !
I have one "normal" coffee in the morning for a "kick" to keep me going after a night on the road; after this, it's "decaff". Lavazza decaff "special espresso" is really quite good: excellent taste and aroma !
To the OP : I bought a £100 espresso machine and find the result more than satisfactory ! I think you will find that the cheaper machines opperate at much lower pressure ( around 3 bars) whilst a machine costing around £100 will use 15 bars. The resultant coffee is more concentrated. Another point to make is to press hard the ground-coffee before putting it into the machine !
In reply to jamiegoscote:
You don't need any equipment at all - other than a nice wee ceramic jug.
Put the best grounds you can find into the jug, add water and stir. Leave to settle and pour off coffee >>gently<<.
Sure you'll get a few grounds in there but so what?? The skill is in the temp of the water and the steady pour.
Be careful though - it'll be strong.
You don't need any equipment at all - other than a nice wee ceramic jug.
Put the best grounds you can find into the jug, add water and stir. Leave to settle and pour off coffee >>gently<<.
Sure you'll get a few grounds in there but so what?? The skill is in the temp of the water and the steady pour.
Be careful though - it'll be strong.
In reply to stonemaster:
and you would be very welcome to the club.
i say get on board, its the best addiction going (tho there are contenders).
me, im working on a caffeine version of an epipen - to get me to the first coffee you see.
and you would be very welcome to the club.
i say get on board, its the best addiction going (tho there are contenders).
me, im working on a caffeine version of an epipen - to get me to the first coffee you see.
In reply to Pyreneenemec:
Good point. I had one of the 3 bar machines to start with and it's no better than a filter. Espresso it is not.
However my 15 bar machine cost much less than £100. The 15 bar ones operate with a pump.
> the cheaper machines opperate at much lower pressure ( around 3 bars) whilst a machine costing around £100 will use 15 bars.
Good point. I had one of the 3 bar machines to start with and it's no better than a filter. Espresso it is not.
However my 15 bar machine cost much less than £100. The 15 bar ones operate with a pump.
In reply to hexcentric:
aha a purist!
totally agree, though the said procedure needs to be undertaken at 4.30am in an apartment in central Sophia.
or north eastern turkey overlooking the black sea will do.
aha a purist!
totally agree, though the said procedure needs to be undertaken at 4.30am in an apartment in central Sophia.
or north eastern turkey overlooking the black sea will do.
In reply to jamiegoscote: I forked out £1200 for a all singing all dancing machine and it's the best money ive spent in ages. Though where I disagree with most of these posts is there coffee selection. Pre-ground is not that good , think along the lines of frozen foods. Try and get the beans and a wee grinder this will elevate your coffee enjoyment to sublime heights (regardless of the machine you buy)
In reply to jamiegoscote: My normal espresso maker was given to me by a gorgeous dark haired Italian beauty who I was totally in love, but sadly returned to Italy when she finished her Eramus exchange. It makes the best coffee purely for the reason that it was given to me by the beautiful Anna. I do half and half with warm milk. My mini espresso maker was given to me by my sometimes deeply annoying Italian mate/climbing partner/flatmate-at-the-time. Like Paolo, sometimes it makes wonderful coffee but is temperamental and prone to boiling over.
I think of filter coffee as more like a session beer. It is more for when you want two mugfuls in a row. Espresso, even when done more latte style is more like a Belgian trapist ale - fantastically flavourful and thick, but too many quickly leads to illness.
But what about camping/climbing coffee? Has Starbucks started selling in the UK the little packet thingies that all the American backpackers are so excited about? I think they are the same thing that Easyjet uses on board which actually gives quite nice coffee considering it seems to be in a packet like instant, but somehow isn't.
I recently bought this Tatonka wire coffee filter holder: http://www.tatonka.com/en/Produkte/epaper-en/index.html#/112 nice and light if you want proper coffee. I've also got the coffee press that goes with Jetboil.
I think of filter coffee as more like a session beer. It is more for when you want two mugfuls in a row. Espresso, even when done more latte style is more like a Belgian trapist ale - fantastically flavourful and thick, but too many quickly leads to illness.
But what about camping/climbing coffee? Has Starbucks started selling in the UK the little packet thingies that all the American backpackers are so excited about? I think they are the same thing that Easyjet uses on board which actually gives quite nice coffee considering it seems to be in a packet like instant, but somehow isn't.
I recently bought this Tatonka wire coffee filter holder: http://www.tatonka.com/en/Produkte/epaper-en/index.html#/112 nice and light if you want proper coffee. I've also got the coffee press that goes with Jetboil.
In reply to jamiegoscote:
Marginally off-topic I know but...if you find yourself getting into the murky world of coffee then this place is worth a visit...
http://www.hasbean.co.uk/
It's where I buy my stuff...lots of supporting articles / blogs as well...
Marginally off-topic I know but...if you find yourself getting into the murky world of coffee then this place is worth a visit...
http://www.hasbean.co.uk/
It's where I buy my stuff...lots of supporting articles / blogs as well...
In reply to jamiegoscote: Get one of these then your fave ground coffee
http://www.rockrun.com/products/MSR-Mugmate-Coffee-Filter.html
and some of these
(Sainsbury's)
http://www.coffeeperfection.com/
That way you never have to drink pish instant coffee again and never have to pay an extortionate amount at Starbuck's etc.
Although Nero is worth it as a treat.
And McDonald's does surprisingly good coffee.
Their reward card thing is supposed to give you a free cup after every 6 you buy, but if you are canny, there is a way to get a free cup after only 3 bought cups the first time then a free one for every two bought cups thereafter.....your addiction to coffee will eventually lead you to work out how to do it...and it is not a scam!
http://www.rockrun.com/products/MSR-Mugmate-Coffee-Filter.html
and some of these
(Sainsbury's)
http://www.coffeeperfection.com/
That way you never have to drink pish instant coffee again and never have to pay an extortionate amount at Starbuck's etc.
Although Nero is worth it as a treat.
And McDonald's does surprisingly good coffee.
Their reward card thing is supposed to give you a free cup after every 6 you buy, but if you are canny, there is a way to get a free cup after only 3 bought cups the first time then a free one for every two bought cups thereafter.....your addiction to coffee will eventually lead you to work out how to do it...and it is not a scam!
In reply to ice.solo:
Oh, I say. Bravo that soloist.
Oh, I say. Bravo that soloist.
In reply to jamiegoscote:
I have a Krups jobbie for morning espresso. The rest of the day (if not from our wonderful italian coffee bar at work) is done via a Handpresso (google the Handpresso Wild - I grind own beans). Caffeine has a major effect on me so if I'm going through the roof, then its best to do it with good beans.
I have a Krups jobbie for morning espresso. The rest of the day (if not from our wonderful italian coffee bar at work) is done via a Handpresso (google the Handpresso Wild - I grind own beans). Caffeine has a major effect on me so if I'm going through the roof, then its best to do it with good beans.
In reply to jamiegoscote:
If you want to fill a flask with coffee, a large glass coffee jug and filter paper and funnel might be handiest.
I'll now bow out and let the experts carry on...
()
If you want to fill a flask with coffee, a large glass coffee jug and filter paper and funnel might be handiest.
I'll now bow out and let the experts carry on...
()
In reply to hexcentric:
I think that's how my dad makes coffee.
> (In reply to jamiegoscote)
> You don't need any equipment at all - other than a nice wee ceramic jug.
> Put the best grounds you can find into the jug, add water and stir. Leave to settle and pour off coffee >>gently<<.
> Sure you'll get a few grounds in there but so what?? The skill is in the temp of the water and the steady pour.
> Be careful though - it'll be strong.
> You don't need any equipment at all - other than a nice wee ceramic jug.
> Put the best grounds you can find into the jug, add water and stir. Leave to settle and pour off coffee >>gently<<.
> Sure you'll get a few grounds in there but so what?? The skill is in the temp of the water and the steady pour.
> Be careful though - it'll be strong.
I think that's how my dad makes coffee.
In reply to TobyA:
Think so - little packets of what appears to be a mix of instant and ground?
not bad in all honesty - but not perfect either - certainly a better bet than normal instant but I still prefer to pack lapsang souchong leaves for the hill.....
> But what about camping/climbing coffee? Has Starbucks started selling in the UK the little packet thingies that all the American backpackers are so excited about? I think they are the same thing that Easyjet uses on board which actually gives quite nice coffee considering it seems to be in a packet like instant, but somehow isn't.
>Think so - little packets of what appears to be a mix of instant and ground?
not bad in all honesty - but not perfect either - certainly a better bet than normal instant but I still prefer to pack lapsang souchong leaves for the hill.....
In reply to hexcentric:
excellent random fun! a shot of cold water supposedly brings the grounds down and some stuff about eggshells. And brown sugar?
tea made indian-style, boiled in sweet milk, mmmmm
> (In reply to jamiegoscote)
> You don't need any equipment at all - other than a nice wee ceramic jug.
> Put the best grounds you can find into the jug, add water and stir. Leave to settle and pour off coffee >>gently<<.
> Sure you'll get a few grounds in there but so what?? The skill is in the temp of the water and the steady pour.
> Be careful though - it'll be strong.
> You don't need any equipment at all - other than a nice wee ceramic jug.
> Put the best grounds you can find into the jug, add water and stir. Leave to settle and pour off coffee >>gently<<.
> Sure you'll get a few grounds in there but so what?? The skill is in the temp of the water and the steady pour.
> Be careful though - it'll be strong.
excellent random fun! a shot of cold water supposedly brings the grounds down and some stuff about eggshells. And brown sugar?
tea made indian-style, boiled in sweet milk, mmmmm
In reply to Dr.Strangeglove:
stick infusers look groovy
http://www.amazon.com/Gamila-Company-Tea-Stick/dp/B000FSTKHG
better and cheaoer ones at rei.com
stick infusers look groovy
http://www.amazon.com/Gamila-Company-Tea-Stick/dp/B000FSTKHG
better and cheaoer ones at rei.com
In reply to jamiegoscote:
Coffee gets a bad press in some quarters and also there are thousands of people out there trying to make their fortune by selling you something for making coffee.
I found a book on coffee by a professor of nutrition at the library and ploughed through hundreds of pages of small print to find out the reality behind the bad press and what I could do to make my lifelong pleasure of coffee drinking healthier and more pleasant.
There is some bad stuff in coffee and some preparation methods get rid of the bad stuff better than others. Good quality filtering seems to be the best preparation method. Ideally that means a good quality paper filter. Since the only big player that puts their name on a packet of filters in the British market is Melitta and they have a reputation going back to the invention of the method, every cup of coffee I make at home is made with a Melitta filter. I have yet to see a reusable filter that I find convincing.
Expresso works by forcing steam through compacted coffee. This is to some extent a filtering process as the swelling and compacted coffee acts as a filter for some of the products. It is not as comprehensive a method as the paper filter. It is likely to be unreliable if the amount of coffee is insufficient.
Similarly, cafétieres need the coffee to swell and be slightly compacted to act as a filter. Most people do not allow this to happen and so produce rubbish and unhealthy coffee.
Most coffee machines are art not function. One of my machines was bought for 30 francs in a supermarket in Cambrai in 1983 and it still works fine. If you go for an expresso maker then there are more safety considerations: expense doesn't mean better though.
Bad filters and overheating are the commonest problems.
Skin-flint's guide to fine coffee:
http://www.hrhiggins.co.uk/accessories/coffee/plastic_filter_cones
Coffee gets a bad press in some quarters and also there are thousands of people out there trying to make their fortune by selling you something for making coffee.
I found a book on coffee by a professor of nutrition at the library and ploughed through hundreds of pages of small print to find out the reality behind the bad press and what I could do to make my lifelong pleasure of coffee drinking healthier and more pleasant.
There is some bad stuff in coffee and some preparation methods get rid of the bad stuff better than others. Good quality filtering seems to be the best preparation method. Ideally that means a good quality paper filter. Since the only big player that puts their name on a packet of filters in the British market is Melitta and they have a reputation going back to the invention of the method, every cup of coffee I make at home is made with a Melitta filter. I have yet to see a reusable filter that I find convincing.
Expresso works by forcing steam through compacted coffee. This is to some extent a filtering process as the swelling and compacted coffee acts as a filter for some of the products. It is not as comprehensive a method as the paper filter. It is likely to be unreliable if the amount of coffee is insufficient.
Similarly, cafétieres need the coffee to swell and be slightly compacted to act as a filter. Most people do not allow this to happen and so produce rubbish and unhealthy coffee.
Most coffee machines are art not function. One of my machines was bought for 30 francs in a supermarket in Cambrai in 1983 and it still works fine. If you go for an expresso maker then there are more safety considerations: expense doesn't mean better though.
Bad filters and overheating are the commonest problems.
Skin-flint's guide to fine coffee:
http://www.hrhiggins.co.uk/accessories/coffee/plastic_filter_cones
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Nice post Jim. In your opinion, does it really matter if you store coffee at room temperature rather than frozen/fridge?
Nice post Jim. In your opinion, does it really matter if you store coffee at room temperature rather than frozen/fridge?
In reply to jamiegoscote:
Get an Aeropress and one of these http://www.creamsupplies.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=2180&am...
Buy a cheap set of electronic scales and some freshly roasted beans and your away!
Infinitely better than a caffetiere/stovetop and it's not going to break the bank
Get an Aeropress and one of these http://www.creamsupplies.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=2180&am...
Buy a cheap set of electronic scales and some freshly roasted beans and your away!
Infinitely better than a caffetiere/stovetop and it's not going to break the bank
In reply to thin bob:
Lavazza decaf is great. Probably even indistinguishable from the real thing (unless you're a real connoisseur!)
Cafetiere's are the work of the devil and make dreadful tasteless pissy coffee.
You need either a moka as the italians use or filter papers which make very good, and slightly less strong coffee.
> (In reply to jamiegoscote)
> And don't shoot me down/up for this, but has anyone found any decent *de*caffeinated ground coffee?
> I tried the Taylors stuff and i thought it tasted of vegetables Maybe it was me, their other ones are good.
> And don't shoot me down/up for this, but has anyone found any decent *de*caffeinated ground coffee?
> I tried the Taylors stuff and i thought it tasted of vegetables Maybe it was me, their other ones are good.
Lavazza decaf is great. Probably even indistinguishable from the real thing (unless you're a real connoisseur!)
Cafetiere's are the work of the devil and make dreadful tasteless pissy coffee.
You need either a moka as the italians use or filter papers which make very good, and slightly less strong coffee.
In reply to kieran b:
Very true, if you don't use them correctly. If you do then they're just fine. The main place where most people go wrong is not to use enough coffee in the first place; if you don't, then you get the result noted, and that's scarcely a surprise.
T.
> Cafetiere's are the work of the devil and make dreadful tasteless pissy coffee.
Very true, if you don't use them correctly. If you do then they're just fine. The main place where most people go wrong is not to use enough coffee in the first place; if you don't, then you get the result noted, and that's scarcely a surprise.
T.
In reply to jamiegoscote: Get yourself an Ibrik, if you think you're man enough.
In reply to jamiegoscote: By all means get a cafetiere, it makes very nice coffee without the hassle of filters. I agree with everything that Icesolo has said and like him, I am a coffee addict. Over the years I have graduated to this machine,
http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeemachines/izzo-vivi-pid-coffee-machine.a...
and this grinder,
http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeegrinders/proddetail.asp?prod=46
The grinder will last for ever.
These type of coffee machines have to be maintained and occasionally they do go wrong. There are no shortage of spare parts and are easy to fit. I hope to get at least 12 years out of my machine.
It is also important to buy good quality coffee beans and in my opinion the supermarket ones don't make the grade except for a couple of exceptions. Waitrose coffee beans are in my opinion the best with Tesco a close second.
http://www.waitrose.com/shop/ProductView-10317-10001-15511-Waitrose+monsoon...
http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=255161274
Lavazza is cheaper but not bad.
http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeemachines/izzo-vivi-pid-coffee-machine.a...
and this grinder,
http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeegrinders/proddetail.asp?prod=46
The grinder will last for ever.
These type of coffee machines have to be maintained and occasionally they do go wrong. There are no shortage of spare parts and are easy to fit. I hope to get at least 12 years out of my machine.
It is also important to buy good quality coffee beans and in my opinion the supermarket ones don't make the grade except for a couple of exceptions. Waitrose coffee beans are in my opinion the best with Tesco a close second.
http://www.waitrose.com/shop/ProductView-10317-10001-15511-Waitrose+monsoon...
http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=255161274
Lavazza is cheaper but not bad.
In reply to jamiegoscote:On a scale of 1 to 10:
Instant coffee = 1
Fresh ground coffee from a gaggia or similar = 10
Packet coffee from a cafetiere = 7.5 (and costs £5-10)
You seem to be seeking the extreme when in fact a cafetiere will change your coffee world at a fraction of the cost of an espresso maker.
Just buy French or Italian blend ground cafetiere coffee.
I don't even put up with instant when I'm camping! I just make it Turkish stylee.
Instant coffee = 1
Fresh ground coffee from a gaggia or similar = 10
Packet coffee from a cafetiere = 7.5 (and costs £5-10)
You seem to be seeking the extreme when in fact a cafetiere will change your coffee world at a fraction of the cost of an espresso maker.
Just buy French or Italian blend ground cafetiere coffee.
I don't even put up with instant when I'm camping! I just make it Turkish stylee.
In reply to thin bob:
Certain teas I have at room temperature but ground coffee I have made the habit of keeping in an old Lyons container in the fridge. I little tap on a hard surface after decanting the coffee from the packet into the container helps to settle and compact it. The original (!) lid keeps the container relatively airtight.
It stands to reason that a sealed container in a cool place will tend to prevent the loss of some of the volatile constituents.
> (In reply to Jim Fraser)
> Nice post Jim. In your opinion, does it really matter if you store coffee at room temperature rather than frozen/fridge?
> Nice post Jim. In your opinion, does it really matter if you store coffee at room temperature rather than frozen/fridge?
Certain teas I have at room temperature but ground coffee I have made the habit of keeping in an old Lyons container in the fridge. I little tap on a hard surface after decanting the coffee from the packet into the container helps to settle and compact it. The original (!) lid keeps the container relatively airtight.
It stands to reason that a sealed container in a cool place will tend to prevent the loss of some of the volatile constituents.
In reply to Tyroneslater:
Funny you should mention that.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.102859056407072.6572.1000004893555...
> (In reply to jamiegoscote)
>
> I don't even put up with instant when I'm camping! ...
>
> I don't even put up with instant when I'm camping! ...
Funny you should mention that.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.102859056407072.6572.1000004893555...
In reply to Jim Fraser:
That link didn't work, what was it?
> (In reply to Tyroneslater)
> [...]
>
> Funny you should mention that.
> http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.102859056407072.6572.1000004893555...
> [...]
>
> Funny you should mention that.
> http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.102859056407072.6572.1000004893555...
That link didn't work, what was it?
In reply to jamiegoscote:
How about trying some of these first?
http://www.tsi-europe.com/productInfo.aspx?catRef=VGAL99000
How about trying some of these first?
http://www.tsi-europe.com/productInfo.aspx?catRef=VGAL99000
In reply to jamiegoscote:
decaff coff: no lavazza, in shop, cafe direct stuff is OK so far.
decaff coff: no lavazza, in shop, cafe direct stuff is OK so far.
In reply to jamiegoscote: anyone used Nespresso?
i got one as a wedding present and think its great
i got one as a wedding present and think its great
In reply to icnoble:
I'm using M&S espresso beans at the mo. Not bad.
> (In reply to jamiegoscote) By all means get a cafetiere, it makes very nice coffee without the hassle of filters. I agree with everything that Icesolo has said and like him, I am a coffee addict. Over the years I have graduated to this machine,
>
> http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeemachines/izzo-vivi-pid-coffee-machine.a...
>
> and this grinder,
>
> http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeegrinders/proddetail.asp?prod=46
>
> The grinder will last for ever.
>
Nice kit. Puts my little Rancilio Silvia to shame...>
> http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeemachines/izzo-vivi-pid-coffee-machine.a...
>
> and this grinder,
>
> http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeegrinders/proddetail.asp?prod=46
>
> The grinder will last for ever.
>
I'm using M&S espresso beans at the mo. Not bad.
In reply to Pursued by a bear:
Yes, you do need to put a decent amount of coffee in but you still cant get the same results from a cafetiere that you would from either a moka or filter imo...and i've never seen one in italy, and they know a thing or two about coffee! (please dont mention the french...theirs is nearly as bad as american coffee...just large bowls of brown liquid on the whole
> (In reply to kieran b)
> [...]
>
> Very true, if you don't use them correctly. If you do then they're just fine. The main place where most people go wrong is not to use enough coffee in the first place; if you don't, then you get the result noted, and that's scarcely a surprise.
>
> T.
> [...]
>
> Very true, if you don't use them correctly. If you do then they're just fine. The main place where most people go wrong is not to use enough coffee in the first place; if you don't, then you get the result noted, and that's scarcely a surprise.
>
> T.
Yes, you do need to put a decent amount of coffee in but you still cant get the same results from a cafetiere that you would from either a moka or filter imo...and i've never seen one in italy, and they know a thing or two about coffee! (please dont mention the french...theirs is nearly as bad as american coffee...just large bowls of brown liquid on the whole
In reply to kieran b: You're discussing the top end of coffee here, where the only people who will be able to tell the difference is those who love coffee. The chap asking the question drinks instant for christ sakes. If I drank some espresso and pissed it into a cup it would taste better.
In reply to Tyroneslater: you'll forgive us if we don't sign up for the taste-test, mate?!?!
i have instant in the cupboard for when i really can't be arsed and desire caffeine. I was amazed at the difference from the aeropress...it is fun looking at £600 machines...and realising that that's the same as a year's worth of takeaway coffee
i have instant in the cupboard for when i really can't be arsed and desire caffeine. I was amazed at the difference from the aeropress...it is fun looking at £600 machines...and realising that that's the same as a year's worth of takeaway coffee
In reply to kieran b: Comparing the drink you get from a moka to that produced by a cafetiere or filter is not comparing like with like; they're two very different drinks united by the name 'coffee' the way that stout and bitter are united by the name 'beer' (in these comparisons, perhaps instant rates as Carling lager, highly promoted and very popular but ultimately something of very little taste).
The cafetiere/filter comparison is valid and, to my taste buds using the type of coffee I prefer, the first wins easily. If you're after the type of drink produced by a moka then you're into espresso territory and the diminishing returns of price and taste that some of the fine equipment espoused in the thread supports. To go that route at home a moka pot is a good starting point should the OP choose.
T.
The cafetiere/filter comparison is valid and, to my taste buds using the type of coffee I prefer, the first wins easily. If you're after the type of drink produced by a moka then you're into espresso territory and the diminishing returns of price and taste that some of the fine equipment espoused in the thread supports. To go that route at home a moka pot is a good starting point should the OP choose.
T.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Just back from an overnight trip to Wester Ross - I had my wee Bialetti doofer with me too.
> Funny you should mention that.
> http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.102859056407072.6572.1000004893555...
> http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.102859056407072.6572.1000004893555...
Just back from an overnight trip to Wester Ross - I had my wee Bialetti doofer with me too.
In reply to jamiegoscote: there have been a few threads on this over the years and its one of ny favourite subjects. as one or two others above i m a coffee snob and happy to be so( if coffee were my worst / only addiction i d be happy and rich). as with pizza, the quest for the perfect espresso is for me a hobby and much like many of my hobbies i totally see why some people dont get it.
to answer your questions :
how much better is filter than instant ? a lot.
isit worth forking out for an espresso machine or is filter just as good ? books have been written.......espresso isnt better than filter, its a different drink, many american coffee snobs think filter (or "drip") is a better one. is certianly cheaper and easyer to make a good filter coffee than a good espresso. a plastic filter holder, some good quality papers and your pick of 100 s of pre ground filter coffees in the supermarket. half an hour on you tube (including the 20 mins looking at girls in bikinis and 5 minutes watching fleetwood mac ) and you ll be making a very passable "cup of joe".the key is to let the grounds swell with a small amount of water first and dont ever hit them with boiling water. good results are also possible with caffetires/plunger jug but much harder to hit the sweet spot consistently, this time you need a proper half an hour on youtube and a set of scales to weigh the water (i ll try to find the link that explains that).
whats the differnce between £80 and £500 machines ? new out the box, not a lot really. you can make a very good espresso type drink with a £10 stove top "mocha pot" very easily, you can make a very bad espresso with a £500 machine (and a £5000 one come to think of it). if you like gadgets , gear and generally fiddling about, then espresso machines are great fun, i think i ve had about 15. ebay. terrible terrible place. with patience £80 will get you a very good starter machine (gaggia cubika to name one) ,£500 will get you a very good machine (isomac zafiro to name one) that with care and regular matenence will last a life time .
as has been touched on by others, whats more important than anything else by a country mile, is to use good quality, freshly roasted, beans and to grind them fresh each time you brew (which ever of the above methods you use), with a burr grinder . i ve got a mazzer (the rolls royce) but there are several good brands and ebay is where to start looking. again youtube is your friend. as you might imagine 100s of hours worth of tips and tricks.
to answer your questions :
how much better is filter than instant ? a lot.
isit worth forking out for an espresso machine or is filter just as good ? books have been written.......espresso isnt better than filter, its a different drink, many american coffee snobs think filter (or "drip") is a better one. is certianly cheaper and easyer to make a good filter coffee than a good espresso. a plastic filter holder, some good quality papers and your pick of 100 s of pre ground filter coffees in the supermarket. half an hour on you tube (including the 20 mins looking at girls in bikinis and 5 minutes watching fleetwood mac ) and you ll be making a very passable "cup of joe".the key is to let the grounds swell with a small amount of water first and dont ever hit them with boiling water. good results are also possible with caffetires/plunger jug but much harder to hit the sweet spot consistently, this time you need a proper half an hour on youtube and a set of scales to weigh the water (i ll try to find the link that explains that).
whats the differnce between £80 and £500 machines ? new out the box, not a lot really. you can make a very good espresso type drink with a £10 stove top "mocha pot" very easily, you can make a very bad espresso with a £500 machine (and a £5000 one come to think of it). if you like gadgets , gear and generally fiddling about, then espresso machines are great fun, i think i ve had about 15. ebay. terrible terrible place. with patience £80 will get you a very good starter machine (gaggia cubika to name one) ,£500 will get you a very good machine (isomac zafiro to name one) that with care and regular matenence will last a life time .
as has been touched on by others, whats more important than anything else by a country mile, is to use good quality, freshly roasted, beans and to grind them fresh each time you brew (which ever of the above methods you use), with a burr grinder . i ve got a mazzer (the rolls royce) but there are several good brands and ebay is where to start looking. again youtube is your friend. as you might imagine 100s of hours worth of tips and tricks.
In reply to Jim Fraser: sorry jim, didnt see your long post, agree with all that.
In reply to jamiegoscote: It's interesting reading all these replies. Seems you could spend thousands if you wanted. As long as I don't have to drink instant again i'll be happy. I have drank it for years and after drinking proper coffee a lot more recently I now hate the stuff.
In reply to jamiegoscote: obviously opinions vary but my 2p: as a serious addict and confirmed coffee geek (I run a La Spaziale Vivaldi as my home machine) http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeemachines/la-spaziale-vivaldi-mini-mk-1....
To me the single absolutely overarching issue is the use of freshly ground coffee rather than what you do with it. Pre-ground coffee has lost so much of its virtue it's closer to instant than proper coffee. It really doesn't matter much if you use a prosumer espresso machine, filter, cafetiere, stove top, aeropress (I've got one at work and it's great) - all can produce very good coffee if you start with good beans and grind them freshly for each brew. It's as simple as that.
The best way I've found to get good beans is to mail order ones that are then roasted fresh to order - they are vastly more flavoursome than beans that have sat in a packet for weeks or months (trust me and try it - tasting is believing). I would strongly recommend Hasbean www.hasbean.co.uk/ and xpress coffee www.xpresscoffeeuk.co.uk/section.php/6/1/coffee as suppliers.
Once you get in to freshly grinding nice beans you'll undoubtedly get sick of crap grinders and fork out on a decent one eventually - more expense but worth it
The next (final?) stage of geekiness is buying green beans and roasting your own - I can't be arsed so lose geek points here
A big problem I've found is that the better the coffee you make the more impossible it becomes to find an acceptable coffee anywhere out - unless you're in Italy
P
To me the single absolutely overarching issue is the use of freshly ground coffee rather than what you do with it. Pre-ground coffee has lost so much of its virtue it's closer to instant than proper coffee. It really doesn't matter much if you use a prosumer espresso machine, filter, cafetiere, stove top, aeropress (I've got one at work and it's great) - all can produce very good coffee if you start with good beans and grind them freshly for each brew. It's as simple as that.
The best way I've found to get good beans is to mail order ones that are then roasted fresh to order - they are vastly more flavoursome than beans that have sat in a packet for weeks or months (trust me and try it - tasting is believing). I would strongly recommend Hasbean www.hasbean.co.uk/ and xpress coffee www.xpresscoffeeuk.co.uk/section.php/6/1/coffee as suppliers.
Once you get in to freshly grinding nice beans you'll undoubtedly get sick of crap grinders and fork out on a decent one eventually - more expense but worth it
The next (final?) stage of geekiness is buying green beans and roasting your own - I can't be arsed so lose geek points here
A big problem I've found is that the better the coffee you make the more impossible it becomes to find an acceptable coffee anywhere out - unless you're in Italy
P
In reply to Paul Atkinson: Complete tosh.
I totally agree that grinding your own is infinitely preferable, but to say that pre ground, foil packed coffee is closer to instant than fresh ground is utterly ridiculous.
I totally agree that grinding your own is infinitely preferable, but to say that pre ground, foil packed coffee is closer to instant than fresh ground is utterly ridiculous.
In reply to Tyroneslater:
RAF Regiment Gunner preparing Bialetti Moka Express for use while on exercise on Otterburn training area.
> (In reply to Jim Fraser)
> [...]
>
> That link didn't work, what was it?
> [...]
>
> That link didn't work, what was it?
RAF Regiment Gunner preparing Bialetti Moka Express for use while on exercise on Otterburn training area.
In reply to Jim Fraser: Haha, quality. It would be the RAF though!
In reply to thin bob:
I used to have instant in the cupboard but stopped buying it because it couldn't survive the periods of geological time that it took for me to forget how dire it is.
> (In reply to Tyroneslater) you'll forgive us if we don't sign up for the taste-test, mate?!?!
>
> i have instant in the cupboard for ...
>
> i have instant in the cupboard for ...
I used to have instant in the cupboard but stopped buying it because it couldn't survive the periods of geological time that it took for me to forget how dire it is.
In reply to Tyroneslater:
Yes, the Royal Air Force is the home of British military civilisation.
I have written to Bialetti asking them if they can produce one with a tactically-quiet lid and in green-anodised finish.
No reply so far. I can't believe there isn't an Italian military version.
Yes, the Royal Air Force is the home of British military civilisation.
I have written to Bialetti asking them if they can produce one with a tactically-quiet lid and in green-anodised finish.
No reply so far. I can't believe there isn't an Italian military version.
In reply to Jim Fraser: Different subject, and some will I'm sure find it tastelss, but I was dating an ex soldier (girl by the way) and managed to find a company which did hand made dildos in any colour you like, so I got her one in urban camo and one in jungle for camping!
She thought it was brilliant.
She thought it was brilliant.
In reply to Tyroneslater:
erm no, not tosh actually - I was just expressing my own opinion and spreading an evangelical gospel as it happens but on this particular issue my opinion coincides with thae orthodoxy of the "serious about coffee" world in general (and being serious about coffee is a bit of a sad existence really). Try any of the (very sad) coffee geek type forums and you'll find your opinion that pre -ground coffee from a packet is way better than instant or even begins to resemble fresh ground is taken about as seriously as a suggestion to grid bolt Stanage would be taken on here. It's like comparing tinned veg to fresh on a cookery forum
P
> (In reply to Paul Atkinson) Complete tosh.
>
> I totally agree that grinding your own is infinitely preferable, but to say that pre ground, foil packed coffee is closer to instant than fresh ground is utterly ridiculous.
>
> I totally agree that grinding your own is infinitely preferable, but to say that pre ground, foil packed coffee is closer to instant than fresh ground is utterly ridiculous.
erm no, not tosh actually - I was just expressing my own opinion and spreading an evangelical gospel as it happens but on this particular issue my opinion coincides with thae orthodoxy of the "serious about coffee" world in general (and being serious about coffee is a bit of a sad existence really). Try any of the (very sad) coffee geek type forums and you'll find your opinion that pre -ground coffee from a packet is way better than instant or even begins to resemble fresh ground is taken about as seriously as a suggestion to grid bolt Stanage would be taken on here. It's like comparing tinned veg to fresh on a cookery forum
P
In reply to Paul Atkinson:
No. The next stage of geekiness is actually hand grinding instead of electric.
> (In reply to jamiegoscote)
>
> The next (final?) stage of geekiness is buying green beans and roasting your own - I can't be arsed so lose geek points here.
>
> The next (final?) stage of geekiness is buying green beans and roasting your own - I can't be arsed so lose geek points here.
No. The next stage of geekiness is actually hand grinding instead of electric.
In reply to Paul Atkinson: No, I get this. I was almost ready to marry a girl once because she is the ONLY person I ever met who knew why it was important that the salt and pepper goes on the mayonaise in a chicken/mayo sandwich.
These things are important, dammit. I do know what you mean, but I just can't agree that pre ground is closer to instant!
These things are important, dammit. I do know what you mean, but I just can't agree that pre ground is closer to instant!
In reply to Jim Fraser:
no need they deploy a 3 man section with professional grinder and 2 grouphead machine as support at company level
> (In reply to Tyroneslater)
>
> No reply so far. I can't believe there isn't an Italian military version.
> No reply so far. I can't believe there isn't an Italian military version.
no need they deploy a 3 man section with professional grinder and 2 grouphead machine as support at company level
In reply to Jim Fraser:
I thought the RAF Reg blokes were so hard, they chewed the beans & gargled...
Honestly, what do the Italians have in their ration packs? can't see 'em standing for happy shopper powder...
> (In reply to Tyroneslater)
>
> Yes, the Royal Air Force is the home of British military civilisation.
>
> I have written to Bialetti asking them if they can produce one with a tactically-quiet lid and in green-anodised finish.
>
> No reply so far. I can't believe there isn't an Italian military version.
>
> Yes, the Royal Air Force is the home of British military civilisation.
>
> I have written to Bialetti asking them if they can produce one with a tactically-quiet lid and in green-anodised finish.
>
> No reply so far. I can't believe there isn't an Italian military version.
I thought the RAF Reg blokes were so hard, they chewed the beans & gargled...
Honestly, what do the Italians have in their ration packs? can't see 'em standing for happy shopper powder...
In reply to jamiegoscote:
Such a controversial topic as everyone has their own opinions. So my twopence worth would be...
If you like espresso (please say you do), you'll need an espresso machine sooner rather than later. The ones with a pump are generally better, though I once got given one that just used steam pressure, but mad fabulous espresso. A water reservoir is a handy thing, and I've never been a fan of machines that try and make more than two shots at a time. you need really finely ground coffee (for the record my favourites grounds would be: Lavazza qualita rossa, or Illy if I'm feeling particularly flush). Distribute your coffee evenly, then tamp - hard but not too hard - you're looking for a fine creamy crema, the main drink should be quite viscous and with a volume of around 25 ml. Remember to pre-warm the cup. Then there's the question of sugar, I'm generally considered to be a bit strange in Italy as I like my espresso without sugar. I've had numerous arguments with a friend of mine from Naples who insists that you should run hot water down the back of a small coffee spoon and dip it into a bowl of brown sugar - he insists that the amount of sugar coating the spoon is the perfect amount. For the rest of us.... If you've made yourself a good espresso, your sugar should float - and the longer it floats generally the better the espresso, typically half a sachet of sugar would be perfect.
Another type would be the stove top macchinetta type, they don't make as good coffee, but you can take them into the hills with you - life's too short to drink bad coffee even in the mountains.
A cheap cafetiere, is also good. For me its a cafetiere first thing, before I'm awake enough to make and savour a decent espresso, at that time its more about the caffeine hit, though the quality is not bad, if you put half decent stuff in.
Which ever way you go... instant is only for emergencies, and even then I need to drink it white.
Have fun finding out what's right for you
Such a controversial topic as everyone has their own opinions. So my twopence worth would be...
If you like espresso (please say you do), you'll need an espresso machine sooner rather than later. The ones with a pump are generally better, though I once got given one that just used steam pressure, but mad fabulous espresso. A water reservoir is a handy thing, and I've never been a fan of machines that try and make more than two shots at a time. you need really finely ground coffee (for the record my favourites grounds would be: Lavazza qualita rossa, or Illy if I'm feeling particularly flush). Distribute your coffee evenly, then tamp - hard but not too hard - you're looking for a fine creamy crema, the main drink should be quite viscous and with a volume of around 25 ml. Remember to pre-warm the cup. Then there's the question of sugar, I'm generally considered to be a bit strange in Italy as I like my espresso without sugar. I've had numerous arguments with a friend of mine from Naples who insists that you should run hot water down the back of a small coffee spoon and dip it into a bowl of brown sugar - he insists that the amount of sugar coating the spoon is the perfect amount. For the rest of us.... If you've made yourself a good espresso, your sugar should float - and the longer it floats generally the better the espresso, typically half a sachet of sugar would be perfect.
Another type would be the stove top macchinetta type, they don't make as good coffee, but you can take them into the hills with you - life's too short to drink bad coffee even in the mountains.
A cheap cafetiere, is also good. For me its a cafetiere first thing, before I'm awake enough to make and savour a decent espresso, at that time its more about the caffeine hit, though the quality is not bad, if you put half decent stuff in.
Which ever way you go... instant is only for emergencies, and even then I need to drink it white.
Have fun finding out what's right for you
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