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I was a bit unsure where to put this one.
I'll start off by noting where I live - South East Kent - possibly one of the worst places in the country for rock climbing. I barely ever get to train properly on rock, as the nearest crag is both 3 hours away by train/bus and usually to wet to climb on.
So when I was recently told about an old train bridge/tunnel that a climber who used to live near me used to use for training and abseiling, I couldn't believe my luck. I went to investigate, and found the hundred year-old building in the middle of some local woods rarely frequented. I could see very old chipped holds into the brick, and graffiti of someone abseiling, which I reckoned to be about 15 years old.
I abseiled down the front of the tunnel from a tree, and inspected the structure. I followed this up by soloing up a slabby 'route' someone had clearly made. This would be great if I could clean it up! It needs a lot of brushing, potentially blowtorching too. It has tree anchors at the top, but only at the 'side' of the tunnel, by the two slabby routes on each side. It looks almost impossible to protect the routes I would like to try on the underside of the tunnel, and around the lip of the entrance.
Now, I realise this must still be owned by someone - probably British Rail. I doubt they would be receptive to an inquiry for using it as a training wall! If I quietly tidied it up and used it, would that be okay? I was wondering whether it would be possible to install bolts on the underside of the tunnel, and along the outside, which would create some routes anywhere between F5 and F7c I reckon, as you could literally chip any size hold you liked underneath the tunnel!
I know it sounds destructive - but this place has literally been abandoned to rot in the middle of the woods for decades now, and surely it wouldn't be a bad thing to put it to use?
So my questions are - should I attempt to contact the landowner for permission? Should I use the area for climbing at all? Would it be possible to bolt it, and how?
Thanks in advance!
Chris
I'll start off by noting where I live - South East Kent - possibly one of the worst places in the country for rock climbing. I barely ever get to train properly on rock, as the nearest crag is both 3 hours away by train/bus and usually to wet to climb on.
So when I was recently told about an old train bridge/tunnel that a climber who used to live near me used to use for training and abseiling, I couldn't believe my luck. I went to investigate, and found the hundred year-old building in the middle of some local woods rarely frequented. I could see very old chipped holds into the brick, and graffiti of someone abseiling, which I reckoned to be about 15 years old.
I abseiled down the front of the tunnel from a tree, and inspected the structure. I followed this up by soloing up a slabby 'route' someone had clearly made. This would be great if I could clean it up! It needs a lot of brushing, potentially blowtorching too. It has tree anchors at the top, but only at the 'side' of the tunnel, by the two slabby routes on each side. It looks almost impossible to protect the routes I would like to try on the underside of the tunnel, and around the lip of the entrance.
Now, I realise this must still be owned by someone - probably British Rail. I doubt they would be receptive to an inquiry for using it as a training wall! If I quietly tidied it up and used it, would that be okay? I was wondering whether it would be possible to install bolts on the underside of the tunnel, and along the outside, which would create some routes anywhere between F5 and F7c I reckon, as you could literally chip any size hold you liked underneath the tunnel!
I know it sounds destructive - but this place has literally been abandoned to rot in the middle of the woods for decades now, and surely it wouldn't be a bad thing to put it to use?
So my questions are - should I attempt to contact the landowner for permission? Should I use the area for climbing at all? Would it be possible to bolt it, and how?
Thanks in advance!
Chris
In reply to Chris Ellyatt: So, you are asking a climbing forum to assume whether it would be acceptible to damage someone else's property for the enjoyment of yourself?
In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
have a look at this place, read the access notes. Make your own decision.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=15738
have a look at this place, read the access notes. Make your own decision.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crag.php?id=15738
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
Quite surprised at this comment if I'm honest! The property has gone completely unused for years - probably since at least the 1950s. It is in a state of utter disrepair, and is not on maintained land. The 'damage' you talk of would also be unnoticeable to anyone but a climber.
Maybe I need to take a photo to explain it properly.
Chris
Quite surprised at this comment if I'm honest! The property has gone completely unused for years - probably since at least the 1950s. It is in a state of utter disrepair, and is not on maintained land. The 'damage' you talk of would also be unnoticeable to anyone but a climber.
Maybe I need to take a photo to explain it properly.
Chris
In reply to tom290483:
Reminds me of The Pump House with bolts. The Pump house is in Fallowfield Manchester.
Reminds me of The Pump House with bolts. The Pump house is in Fallowfield Manchester.
In reply to Chris Ellyatt: fairly typical of a ukc comment im afraid... if you just want to use it as an outdoor training venue and there are decent trees at the top is it not possible to just toprope it?
If the land is owned by the railways there is normally a fine of about a grand for trespassing, so if you do get caught least you dont have criminal damage to add to the list.
Also if your considering bolting it, i personally would be a bit concerned about the quality of the brick work and its capability of holding a bolt if its decades old.
Either way...have fun! Just dont get caught!
If the land is owned by the railways there is normally a fine of about a grand for trespassing, so if you do get caught least you dont have criminal damage to add to the list.
Also if your considering bolting it, i personally would be a bit concerned about the quality of the brick work and its capability of holding a bolt if its decades old.
Either way...have fun! Just dont get caught!
In reply to garethtodd: ^^^^^like
In reply to Chris Ellyatt: Chris, just go and bolt it. I did one in an old tunnel in Newport over 10 yrs ago and still train on it. Its a lovely big stone block construction, just off vertical on the face of the tunnel & i also bolted some lines inside the tunnel for when its wet.
Just get to it, it would be a waste not to.
Just get to it, it would be a waste not to.
In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
Dunno how relevant this is but many, many years ago at uni in Kent we used to boulder on an old railway bridge. After a few months with no probs the police started turning up & moving us along.
Unfortunately for us one day this happened to a cocky 3rd year law student who demanded to know what right they had to do so & "criminal damage" was mentioned.
So IIRC (& this is a long time ago) Mr Cocky gets one of his lecturers to write to the police pointing out how slim their chances of a conviction are for damaging a few hundred tonnes of brick with bare hands.
The police responded by pointing out that they didn't need to show any damage had occurred as we were guilty of "conspiracy to cause criminal damage" & the proof was that there more than one of us !
Always wondered if that was true & if it was I guess we're all guilty of "conspiracy" by discussing your bridge on here.
Dunno how relevant this is but many, many years ago at uni in Kent we used to boulder on an old railway bridge. After a few months with no probs the police started turning up & moving us along.
Unfortunately for us one day this happened to a cocky 3rd year law student who demanded to know what right they had to do so & "criminal damage" was mentioned.
So IIRC (& this is a long time ago) Mr Cocky gets one of his lecturers to write to the police pointing out how slim their chances of a conviction are for damaging a few hundred tonnes of brick with bare hands.
The police responded by pointing out that they didn't need to show any damage had occurred as we were guilty of "conspiracy to cause criminal damage" & the proof was that there more than one of us !
Always wondered if that was true & if it was I guess we're all guilty of "conspiracy" by discussing your bridge on here.
In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
Unfortunately, Highclimber is also spot on, in this case!
Fundamentally, it is someone else's land and property and you have no right to use it or do anything to it, apparently disused or otherwise.
This would be the sort of thing that gives climbers a bad name.
If you want to do a bit of sneaky bouldering or traversing, that's one thing, but bolting it is a step too far, for your own safety (you don't want a bolt pulling out or pulling the roof down on you), as much as any considerations of damage to property.
Unfortunately, Highclimber is also spot on, in this case!
Fundamentally, it is someone else's land and property and you have no right to use it or do anything to it, apparently disused or otherwise.
This would be the sort of thing that gives climbers a bad name.
If you want to do a bit of sneaky bouldering or traversing, that's one thing, but bolting it is a step too far, for your own safety (you don't want a bolt pulling out or pulling the roof down on you), as much as any considerations of damage to property.
In reply to i.munro: i think in todays blame society the owners/police would be more inclined to shift folk along at fear of being sued by a broken climber!
In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
I didn't mean to sound sarcastic, I agree that its probably not a bad idea to do what you have mentioned if it is safe enough to do so but I think that you should ask the owners permission before asking a bunch of people on a forum if its ok to permenantly alter someone else's property
> (In reply to highclimber)
>
> Quite surprised at this comment if I'm honest! The property has gone completely unused for years - probably since at least the 1950s. It is in a state of utter disrepair, and is not on maintained land. The 'damage' you talk of would also be unnoticeable to anyone but a climber.
>
> Maybe I need to take a photo to explain it properly.
>
> Chris
>
> Quite surprised at this comment if I'm honest! The property has gone completely unused for years - probably since at least the 1950s. It is in a state of utter disrepair, and is not on maintained land. The 'damage' you talk of would also be unnoticeable to anyone but a climber.
>
> Maybe I need to take a photo to explain it properly.
>
> Chris
I didn't mean to sound sarcastic, I agree that its probably not a bad idea to do what you have mentioned if it is safe enough to do so but I think that you should ask the owners permission before asking a bunch of people on a forum if its ok to permenantly alter someone else's property
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
Thanks. Yeah that's what I've been thinking about doing - hence my question to you guys if that was the right thing to do. I just doubt that they would understand the use and - as someone just pointed out - would probably be very scared of being sued!
Anyway I'll go and have another look, and see if it can all be top roped, which wouldn't cause any damage.
Chris
Thanks. Yeah that's what I've been thinking about doing - hence my question to you guys if that was the right thing to do. I just doubt that they would understand the use and - as someone just pointed out - would probably be very scared of being sued!
Anyway I'll go and have another look, and see if it can all be top roped, which wouldn't cause any damage.
Chris
In reply to i.munro:
Talk about the a jobs-worth bunch of coppers! I have come across too many that fall into that bracket.
In reply to the original post i reckon definitely illegal but you would get probably away with it if you keep it discreet. Then again this thread maybe isn't helping that...
You clearly believe from the case you make that you are morrally justified to use it, so i guess the question is are you prepared to risk an unlikely but possible charge for criminal damage or similar offence?
Talk about the a jobs-worth bunch of coppers! I have come across too many that fall into that bracket.
In reply to the original post i reckon definitely illegal but you would get probably away with it if you keep it discreet. Then again this thread maybe isn't helping that...
You clearly believe from the case you make that you are morrally justified to use it, so i guess the question is are you prepared to risk an unlikely but possible charge for criminal damage or similar offence?
In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
The right thing to do is .....Don't ask !
> Thanks. Yeah that's what I've been thinking about doing - hence my question to you guys if that was the right thing to do.
The right thing to do is .....Don't ask !
In reply to Nic DW:
To be fair to the police this was rural Kent. Spiritual home of "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" & we were a particularly hairy bunch of students, it being the 70s.
I'm sure that curtains had been twitched, walking sticks had been shaken angrily at village meetings & quiet words had been had with the chief constable at the golf club.
> (In reply to i.munro)
>
> Talk about the a jobs-worth bunch of coppers!
>
> Talk about the a jobs-worth bunch of coppers!
To be fair to the police this was rural Kent. Spiritual home of "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" & we were a particularly hairy bunch of students, it being the 70s.
I'm sure that curtains had been twitched, walking sticks had been shaken angrily at village meetings & quiet words had been had with the chief constable at the golf club.
In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
We have an old railway line running through our land and all the sandstone embankments are the property of Railtrack (Previously British Rail) - who (even though the railway has been disused for over 70 years) come and carry out an annual inspection. So if you want to bolt it - Railtrack should be your first port of call.
We have an old railway line running through our land and all the sandstone embankments are the property of Railtrack (Previously British Rail) - who (even though the railway has been disused for over 70 years) come and carry out an annual inspection. So if you want to bolt it - Railtrack should be your first port of call.
In reply to Chris Ellyatt: if you ask before bolting, you will probably turn up one evening to find the whole bridge fenced off. I would just carry on as you are, use the trees to top rope from.
In reply to Nic DW:
The point of my rambling story above was that he might (if it works like that) be risking the charge of "conspiracy to cause criminal damage" an extremely serious charge with AFAIK a max sentence of life rather than a relatively minor charge of criminal damage or trespass.
> You clearly believe from the case you make that you are morrally justified to use it, so i guess the question is are you prepared to risk an unlikely but possible charge for criminal damage or similar offence?
The point of my rambling story above was that he might (if it works like that) be risking the charge of "conspiracy to cause criminal damage" an extremely serious charge with AFAIK a max sentence of life rather than a relatively minor charge of criminal damage or trespass.
In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
Good prices at Screwfix just now...
http://www.screwfix.com/p/bosch-gbh24vs-3-8kg-sds-plus-drill-24v/94332
Good prices at Screwfix just now...
http://www.screwfix.com/p/bosch-gbh24vs-3-8kg-sds-plus-drill-24v/94332
In reply to JLS:
Dont bother with bolts, just give it a good cleanup if needed and carry on. We have a local disused railway bridge that is well used and written up in the local guide
http://www.leicesterclimbs.f9.co.uk/SlawstonI.htm
There has never been any access issues
Dont bother with bolts, just give it a good cleanup if needed and carry on. We have a local disused railway bridge that is well used and written up in the local guide
http://www.leicesterclimbs.f9.co.uk/SlawstonI.htm
There has never been any access issues
In reply to Chris Ellyatt: Can I guess where this is? Is it near Sandling station on the line that used to go from Sandling to Hythe?
In reply to the sheep: It's a shame no climbers were caught by the Google van: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&...
In reply to althesin:
There was a suggestion at the BMC meet yesterday that New Mills Council are looking into bolting the Viaduct.... I believe Al Evans of this parish asked them 20 odd years ago and they said no
There was a suggestion at the BMC meet yesterday that New Mills Council are looking into bolting the Viaduct.... I believe Al Evans of this parish asked them 20 odd years ago and they said no
In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
I would advise against the use of bolts in brick unless advised that it is safe to do so by someone familiar with such things. It is quite possible that a fall would smash a brick to peices or pull a whole brick out of the wall, depending on the type of brick and type and age of mortar.
I looked into the possibility of retro-bolting a brick climbing wall once, and was told that to hold a lead fall I would have to drill right through the wall and install a spreader plate on the other side
I would advise against the use of bolts in brick unless advised that it is safe to do so by someone familiar with such things. It is quite possible that a fall would smash a brick to peices or pull a whole brick out of the wall, depending on the type of brick and type and age of mortar.
I looked into the possibility of retro-bolting a brick climbing wall once, and was told that to hold a lead fall I would have to drill right through the wall and install a spreader plate on the other side
In reply to Jack B:
I'd second that comment, bricks are often not that strong: I've had a brick disintergrate in my hands when I gave a rawlbolt a gentle tug to check it was tight!
I'd second that comment, bricks are often not that strong: I've had a brick disintergrate in my hands when I gave a rawlbolt a gentle tug to check it was tight!
In reply to casa:
Hmm, an old railway tunnel in Newport? Assuming you mean South Wales, the only disused one that I know of recorded is now buried under a road that's been open getting on 20 years. Unless it's what's for some reason called a tunnel, but really just a large bridge, and just over the border into Torfaen by about 10 metres...
Hmm, an old railway tunnel in Newport? Assuming you mean South Wales, the only disused one that I know of recorded is now buried under a road that's been open getting on 20 years. Unless it's what's for some reason called a tunnel, but really just a large bridge, and just over the border into Torfaen by about 10 metres...
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
Why am I not surprised that the French are way ahead of both the OP as well as New Mills Council: http://www.pofroad.com/blog/node/1248
Dave
> (In reply to althesin)
>
> There was a suggestion at the BMC meet yesterday that New Mills Council are looking into bolting the Viaduct.... I believe Al Evans of this parish asked them 20 odd years ago and they said no.
>
> There was a suggestion at the BMC meet yesterday that New Mills Council are looking into bolting the Viaduct.... I believe Al Evans of this parish asked them 20 odd years ago and they said no.
Why am I not surprised that the French are way ahead of both the OP as well as New Mills Council: http://www.pofroad.com/blog/node/1248
Dave
In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
There's an old saying: "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission".
Having lived in Cambridge for quite a long time, I can understand your frustration. I've climbed old bridges, chalk quarries, university buildings, bridges, home made walls and a few multi storey car-parks.
I'm sure that if you're discreet about it then you will get away with it, but I'm not sure I'd want to trust a bolt in crumbly old brick.
There's an old saying: "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission".
Having lived in Cambridge for quite a long time, I can understand your frustration. I've climbed old bridges, chalk quarries, university buildings, bridges, home made walls and a few multi storey car-parks.
I'm sure that if you're discreet about it then you will get away with it, but I'm not sure I'd want to trust a bolt in crumbly old brick.
In reply to Phil Payne:
There is brick and brick - you certainly would be wasting your time putting bolts into Fen Ditton bridge, but the Long Road bridge is made of pretty bomb proof blue engineering bricks - to use the two Cambridge examples I can think of.
There is brick and brick - you certainly would be wasting your time putting bolts into Fen Ditton bridge, but the Long Road bridge is made of pretty bomb proof blue engineering bricks - to use the two Cambridge examples I can think of.
In reply to Chris Ellyatt:
Disused railway infrastructure is often transferred from Railtrack to Railway Estates.
TBH why bother with bolts/chipping. If its for training only then top ropes/soloing is probably a better choice from an ethical perspective
Disused railway infrastructure is often transferred from Railtrack to Railway Estates.
TBH why bother with bolts/chipping. If its for training only then top ropes/soloing is probably a better choice from an ethical perspective
In reply to popebenedictus:
Very true, just wanted to get some clipping practise in really. Soloed a route there yesterday I reckon was E1 5a, and I reckon there's another E2 5b I should solo next time, as I practised it on abseil.
Thanks to everyone for the advice anyway, I will refrain from bolting it.
Chris
Very true, just wanted to get some clipping practise in really. Soloed a route there yesterday I reckon was E1 5a, and I reckon there's another E2 5b I should solo next time, as I practised it on abseil.
Thanks to everyone for the advice anyway, I will refrain from bolting it.
Chris
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