UKC

Successfully climbed this last week, after fluffing it a couple of years back, was very pleased with myself. I did Kiernan's traverse first this time, which was good fun

now, the traverse is graded HS, but the upper crack only VDiff- i found the traverse pretty straightforward, but even this time the crack didnt go without a fight. My own feeling was that grades would make more sense the other way round (though maybe severe rather than HS would be fair)

thoughts anyone...?

cheers
gregor

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: it's whatever you want it to be.....

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I suppose the logic as far as the traverse is concerned is that it is unprotected and relies on friction for the hands - not exactly difficult, but it does feel rather precarious on a warm day with sweaty palms, and falling off would definitely hurt. For me, the crack definitely feels harder than Vdiff, but then I am not the world's greatest when it comes to jamming. You're probably right that severe for both parts of the route would be nearer the mark.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
Personally I agree with the grades given, ie HS for the traverse and VDiff for the crack. But that may be more to do with where my strengths and weaknesses lie.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Our views (we havent put Yorkshire grit on Offwidth yet):

1 Kiernan’s Traverse and Rough Crack HS 4b P1 [=] no more than S 4a P1
The description of this line is not at all clear. We have climbed the slightly reachy traverse along the obvious break (with excellent jams and protection) which doesn’t tie in with delicate tip toeing. A higher line would be a lot harder, very precarious and certainly P2.
1.1 Rough Crack Direct VD [=] possible VD 4a/3c*
The crack has a hard mantel start easily bypassed on the right. A good test of jamming skills and as such a sandbag for those who avoid this technique.


In reply to Toreador

As a YMC crag author you should be beyond getting hung up on your own strenths and weaknesses by now and grading to take those into account.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: I have always understood that Kiernan's Traverse was the higher, more delicate line and have tried to make that clear in earlier descriptions. I believe it is worth HS 4b that way. The crack is pretty straightforward if you have any basic jamming experience and if gained from the easiest sequence directly below provides, probably, the most definitive mid-range V.Diff on the crag. (Discuss?)

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

did the direct yesterday, though avoided the full on mantel which I would have thought was more than 4b? I found the crack a reasonably straight forward jamming exercise but would have said top end V Diff.

In reply to Dave Musgrove, offwidth:

re: the traverse-

really interesting- from the polish i'd thought the route was as offwith described, ie hands in the upper crack- and at most mild severe, even vdiff. the higher line looks unprotected- so ? the P1 rating in the guidebook, looks more P2- and would unprotected 4b not worth more than HS-i wouldn't want to fall off, because the ground is dropping away, it gets high quite quickly.

and rough crack-

my jamming isn't the best, but i wouldn't say its the weakest part of my climbing either. the crack felt harder than fluted columns, pinnacle flake climb and west cave wall, all of which get Severe on here (though i know fluted columns isn't really...), so i wouldn't have said it was mid range v diff (though of course it is alsmcliff...!)

thanks for the replies, i guess i should take it out of the logbook though...

does the lower traverse have a name? after all, it is a nice bit of climbing...

cheers
gregor

In reply to Offwidth:

Thanks for the suggestion, I hadn't thought of that.

One or other of us (or both) has taken the wrong line on the traverse. When I climbed it, it was definitely tip-toeing, and I can't remember jamming. Precarious and P2 would be my verdict

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

When I've seen people struggle (which is often), it's usually because they don't use a foot jam to get started.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

There's protection at the start of the traverse. You'd risk swinging into something if you came off so possibly P2 not P1 - but that's academic as they're scrapping P grades

Quite reminiscent of Josephine at Ilkley (if you take the higher teetering line, rather than the down-across-up cheating line).

In reply to Toreador:

For 'cheating' read 'sensible'. Having teetered round that corner for years - including for my first ever lead - I could not believe how stupid I had been when I first saw someone hand traverse my foot traverse. I've handtraversed if ever since. I think it's called reading the rock, isn't it?

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

For what its worth the earliest description I have to hand is in the 1957 guide which reads "... 28ft severe; Starts near the top of the narrow gully which bounds Low Man on its right. A horizontal traverse is made to the left for 18 feet via an awkward bulge to a rounded crack which is climbed to the top".

Bare in mind that the Severe grade in this guide was also used for Pigott's Stride, Whisky Crack, Bird's Nest Crack and Traditional Climb. The only Almscliff route deemed to merit Severe (hard) was Parson's Chimney.

The direct ascent of the crack never got a mention until the 1989 guide but it had been climbed for many decades before that. I suspect it long pre-dated the traverse start. I have always thought of the lower traverse as the more logical start to the Low Man Girdle.

Dave

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

The move (or possibly two) to get established in rough crack feels far and away harder than anything on fluted columns, which gets HVD in sensible guides. But then South chimney layback is nails hard compared to rough crack and that only gets severe.
Perhaps the grades at Alsmcliff are all over the place?... Or far more likely, me and a lot of other climbers who are far better versed in 'grab and pull' are simply crap at jamming?

In reply to NorthernGrit:
>But then South chimney layback is nails hard compared to rough crack and that only gets severe.

+1 to that...!

harder than Bird's Nest Crack, and a whole load of HS cracks in the Peak...

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

thanks Dave, interesting historical context. Any idea why the lower traverse isn;t named/graded? judging by the logbook comments, and the signs of wear, it looks like its done more often than the proper route,

cheers
gregor

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

I think it is just that the Low Man has been a solo playground for Almscliff regulars for over 100 years and minor variations were rarely claimed or written up in the past. Succesive guide writers have added routes that they condidered worthy or personal favourites; For instance Martin Berzins wrote up Fluted Crack as an independent route for the '89 guide and I added Pinnacle Direct for the '98 edition. I suspect both had been climbed before 1900. I added mention of the V.Diff direct version of Rough Crack to both those editions as a byline in the description of Kiernan's traverse but never thought of the lower traverse as other than the start of the low man girdle. If the current guide writers think it worthy of specific independece then so be it. The danger though, is losing the quality routes in a morass of minor variations and spoiling the impact of the guide overall. Getting the balance right is tricky but priorities change with each new guide and new generation of climbers.

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

i can see your point Dave, and its interesting to find out these interesting little facts about the history of the crag...

my guess with kiernan's traverse though is that the lower line is done much more often than the guidebook line; it is also a very nice bit of climbing in its own right, worth a couple of stars in my book...

pinnacle direct gave me a surprise a couple of weeks back... i went to add it in my logbook, and found it was already there...! i seem to have completely forgotten it from the first time around. not sure why, it is a nice climb. i guess that's old age creeping up on me.

I think i can claim the onsight twice as a result...



cheers
gregor

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

Bugger, got to do that one again now! Even taking into account the superb balance ability and worse footwear of the old climbers the lower line still seems the logical easier one for me (wouldn't be the first illogical line though ...did Leaf Climb the other day!).

In reply to Offwidth:

I think it was probably more logical before the leaf fell out in the 1910s!

What did you reckon to the grade? I've never done it, the second part looks so unlikely for a VDiff...

In reply to Toreador:

The corner crack start from the pit is brutal, felt 4b to me but maybe I got it wrong; very artificial as you can always step back. Then there is an optional boldish traverse sequence from a good sidepull (but observing the polish on the ledge below. most have traversed there) to reach the chimney. The left of the chockstone is an unwise endeavor ...looks more like HVS... I was soloing, so did the normal chimney and stepped left onto the chockstone. The top-out from the top of the chockstone is brilliant Diff space walking: West Chimney start and this finish is a must and maybe worth two stars (you could even add a cheat but more natural version of the start by bridging out of the pit and walking the polished ledge)

In reply to Offwidth:

Agreed


That's the bit that's always put me off!
I think that's where the leaf used to be, which presumably made it a bit easier.

Will give it a go with the normal chimney start.