UKC

Hi I am in the market for a soft shell to cope with Scottish winter.

I would like it to be bright (I have too much black stuff)and it must have a decent hood.

Any suggestions?

cheers

G

In reply to Gazlynn: I have two my first one is a North face Apex Bionic jacket which I've never put to foul weather usage but believe it would stand up to anything in a cold environment.... One issue I have with it is that I seem to overheat whilst wearing it.

My second and my favorite by all accounts is my Rab Vapour Rise... It has a hood and a fleece lining so in my opinion the best option for winter.

In reply to Jgh69:

Thanks for your recommendations. I already own a Rab vapour rise and I think it's great but I am looking for something a bit warmer.
I will look at TNF one though.

cheers

G

In reply to Gazlynn:
I'm not using one with a hood and it is unlined (well it has a thin mesh only) strechy soft shell. That way I can combine it with whatever insulation I want for the day. I find stretchy style soft shell much better for climbing in and also much more breathable so stops sweat build up nearly completely, which for me is the key for staying warm on the next belay.

For belays I have a pertex/primaloft belay jacket with a hood. This combo is working well at the moment but for realy fowl days I guess I'd miss having a hood and currently would climb with a hard shell on - although so far I have had not had to, infact I've not used my hard shell in winter on the climbs since adopting this system.

In reply to Gazlynn:

marmot zion in the new neoshell, if you can find and afford it.

the blue looks pretty cool.

In reply to Gazlynn: iv also got a tnf apex jacket i find it very good in winter they are unlined though which suits me as i sort my layering out below it. the only time i put a hardshell on is if it is really foul weather mines is black though not sure if they are available in other colours

In reply to Gazlynn:

Patagonia Speed Ascent? Pricey at £280 or so but gets good reviews.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=2838

I have the Ascensionist, which is the Speed Ascent without the R2 lining and it's a tough, light jacket which does very well for Alpine summer stuff. The Speed Ascene has the extra warmth for colder stuff.

Looks lovely in greay with orange zips too! One thing - they're sized a little large - I'm usually XL but fit a medium in these, so it's best to try one on.

In reply to Andy Mott:
280!

good god mine cost 75!

In reply to Gazlynn: I have the Rab Baltoro Guide and find that works very well in winter. I pretty much wear it in any but the very worst conditions!

Hood is massive and the collar comes up high and is very warm, nice long cut and a good fit.

In reply to Andy Mott: No longer being made. This seasons version I think is called the North Wall or similar - just happened that the winter Patagonia catalogue turned up in my postbox yesterday! The new one looks similar and rather nice.

My Speed Ascent is great, but you want to be wearing it all day as its quite bulky.

In reply to Gazlynn: Hi Gaz, have a look at the Marmot Genesis. Mountainspirit in Aviemore stock them at the mo at a sale price. I think they are a true winter softshell - in the way that a lot are not in fact a full on winter softshell. TobyA did a review of them on here somewhere. I find it great for climbing/ski touring/pretty much anything. It comes with a good hood to fit over helmet, is a good robust marterial, is warm and ventable. I rate them so much that I decided to buy a second one in the sale.

In reply to Gazlynn: It staggers me that so many Frenchmen inhabit this forum nowadays. Buffalo big face, that's what you want

In reply to Gazlynn: Vapour Rise Guide?

Apparently designed to be warmer for winter.

In reply to TobyA:

I got mine through over the weekend but haven't had a chance to look through. Just checked the site and you're right - the Northwall is the new boy. Not cheap at £350 mind!

Many places still have the old Speed Ascent, and may well reduce it with the new stuff coming available so it could be worth keeping an eye open if it appeals. So many other options though, and I'm a little out of the loop now, for shame... lol

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
The Genesis has a membrane in it. In my mind this isn't a true soft shell. Fair enough I haven't tried that brand but it probably won't be as breathable as pertex which for me isn't breathable enough.

I want soft shell that I will wear climbing on pitches to be very wind resistent but breathable enough that I won't build up sweat on the inside. Which for me means stretchy soft shell without a membrane.

In reply to all:

Thanks for all your replies.

I looked at the superhero jacket over the weekend and that was warm enough but the hood was useless imho.

Has anyone any experience with the north face kishtwar jacket?

Or what are peoples thoughts on it

http://www.theoutdoorshop.com/showPart.asp?part=PN80153

thanks a lot


G

In reply to Gazlynn:
I think you don't want something warm at all for a softshell for winter. Very often I walk in with my thin softshell on top of a base layer in winter (and still may end up getting hot, if its not windy I often walk in initially just wearing a base layer on my upper half!). If its got a fleece bonded to the the soft shell especially a thick one you will not be able to wear it very often until you are on/very near the crag. When the wind is up and there is spindrift in the air you will then need to carry another soft shell to walk in wearing! (or get wet, or get very sweaty inside your hard shell!)

Basically it makes the soft shell much less versatile.

Stevo

In reply to Gazlynn:
north face kishtwar has a membrane in it, I guess it depends what you are expecting it do be like over an event/goretex hard shell (some of these are stretchy too now a days) with fleece under it (or a pertex jacket). It certainly won't be nearly as breathable as a proper stretchy soft shell with no membrane.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

My review, http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=2487 It isn't as breathable as woven soft shells, but then it is more wind and waterproof. So its one of those one where you make your choice on what you think might work for you. I'm more with Stevo here - I like softshells to be super-breathable although last winter I used a hardshell a lot for the first time in many years and found modern Goretex Pro-shell is breathable enough for me climbing, if maybe not for on the walk-in.

In reply to Gazlynn: What is the problem with your Vapour Rise? Personally I would stick with that. I often wear mine with a long sleeve base layer under it if it is looking particularly cold.

If you are getting cold when static then stick a belay jacket of some kind over the top.

In reply to MJH:

I must be a bit of a wimp as I have been quite cold wearing a merino wool baselayer and a vapour rise in the winter. I think you might be right though. It would be cheaper to get a thicker base layer that a new soft shell.

cheers

G

In reply to Gazlynn:
Have you got a primaloft belay jacket?

If you already have a VR jacket (which after a quick squiz online looked to be one of the better options with a hood to me) a belay jacket is probably what you need. I personally climb with a fairly normal polyproperlene base layer, a micro freece, a non hooded stretchy soft shell and a balaclava under my helmet (on my top half), and then chuck the belay jacket on during the belays and am more than warm enough for most days on the hill.

As i keep drumming on about the key to staying warm is not sweating, if you sweat on the pitch you will be cold on belay, hence why a belay jacket is soo important - as its just not possible (for me) to wear enough clothers leading that without adding a belay jacket I then stay warm belaying as I'll start overheating when climbing and then the extra sweat will make me even colder on belay.

In reply to Gazlynn:

Is that when you are moving or static though?

In reply to Gazlynn: i've got a decathalon own brand (quechua) softshell.

cost £50 and is great, got a thin fleece lining and pit zips as well as being a good cut. also has silk wrist warmers with thumb loops.

the only issue i have with it is that the hood won't go over a helmet, which means that you've got to take your helmet off if you deciede you want the hood up after you've started climbing. not an issue if you put the hood up at the start, but something to remember.

only downside to The OP's spec is that its black.

In reply to MJH:



You obviously haven't seen me walking in to the climbs because it's a bit of both lol. Seriously it's probably more when I am static.


In reply to CurlyStevo:

I have a bomber belay jacket. Which I wear when I can be bothered to take it out the Sack.

I am maybe looking for an Utopian winter clothing system that doesn't exist or I just haven't found the right combination yet.

cheers

In reply to Gazlynn: GAZ! I fixed my teeth.

Have you considered the Buffalo system?

http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=d1318703-b1cf-4db...

In reply to The Outlaw Josey Wales:
personally I hated buffalo, too hot to walk in wearing by X 4, too hot to climb in X 2 by the time I was on belay I was so sweaty I'd always get cold.

In reply to Gazlynn:
"Utopian winter clothing system that doesn't exist"

I think you are right there it doesn't exist as the requirements on clothing when you are standing still for an hour (or two!) in a cold dark windy damp/snowy environment are compeltely different to when you are giving it your all climbing espeically on really physical stuff like steep snow. I think I've pretty clearly outlined why and what happens in my above posts.

Just stop being lazy and get your belay jacket out of your bag!

In reply to CurlyStevo:

cheers for all your advice. It's helped a lot.

I think I will experiment a bit more with what I have got and see what happens this winter. I will even get my belay jacket out more often Curly

cheers

G

In reply to Gazlynn: Sounds like you already have a pretty good system, you just need to use it

In reply to MJH:

I think you might be right m8.


Thanks everyone for your advise.

Gaz

In reply to Gazlynn:

By a Paramo Smock. They are great as a soft shell but are still waterproof. They also have enough vents on them so stop you over heating.

Failing that, maybe a Rab Vapour-rise smock?

In reply to Gazlynn: Another vote for Rab Baltoro Guide - will withstand fairly heavy showers/constant drizzle (typical scottish weather any time of year), cuts wind to almost zero and very warm. Thick fleece inside on main body (front & back) and arms, and thinner stretchy fabric on elbows and underarms for movement.
Good long cut stops it lifting out of a harness, big hood which still seals tight round the face with a helmet underneath and BIG chest pockets inside and out (will hold O.S. map with ease).

In reply to Gazlynn: Sack the belay jacket and get a primaloft vest, just enough of a boost over your out layers when you're at a standstill, packs up so small you can clip it to your harness. I found the Rab one to be rubbish (rides up), Patagucci micropuff vest is the business - I think the Haglofs one is quite good too.

In reply to iksander: ps. re hood - get a mid/baselayer with a hood and wear it under your helmet. Keeps you warm and your hearing and vision aren't as hampered as they are by an over-the-helmet hood

In reply to iksander: Respect. A vest wouldn't be enough for me I'm afraid and certainly not enough if stood for a long time.

Al

In reply to Gazlynn:

Paramo. More waterproof than most hardshells and ALOT more breathable.

Downside. WARM but its winter just forego a fleecce.

Needs some love every now and again.

In reply to Gazlynn: I think it depends what you're doing re the "get your belay jacket out more often" advice. If you're waiting for your partner to labour up some mixed monster then getting the belay jacket out might be worth while.
For us mere mortals I find it wastes a whole lot of time when you want to be moving quickly, great for emergencies and it's always nice to know you've got it but mine usually stays in the bag.

A third vote for the Rab Baltoro Guide. It's too hot for a walk in as another poster mentioned, but who walks in in a jacket anyway? I team it with a base layer and a thin fleece. If I'm feeling chilly or it's a wet pitch I add a hard shell on top. I know that's not the done thing but it works for me while I'm climbing but obviously not when you're moving fast or walking.

Ben

P.S. I'm a total pussy when it comes to the cold so if I'm okay belaying for in that then I think most people would be.

In reply to Gazlynn: I picked up a Mammut Extreme Ultimate WS at V12 at the weekend for an unbelievable £50. Definately worth a look, since the RRP is £240. Alternatively the new Mammut Eiger Extreme series Gipfelgrat jacket in Neoshell might be exactly what you are looking for, beefed up tough fabric, but fully waterproof and breathable. Everything you would want from a softshell but waterproof too...bonus!

In reply to Sharp:
I beleive the less clothers when climbing + belay jacket on belays is the way forward, it takes all of about 30 seconds to put it on at and the same to take it off so on a 5 pitch route between you and your partner maybe an extra 5 minutes tops. No more jumping up and down on belays trying to fight off the deep shivers, no more hot aches in the hands. Climbing the actual pitches with less clothers on is also much less encumbering and easier and being warm you can get everything done faster and more efficiently.

For me there just isn't a single set of clothers I can wear when climbing and belaying that will work nearly as well.

In reply to Sharp:

Really interesting point Ben:


What do you count as moving quickly? Just unpitched climbing? Or pitching routes as well? Do you tend to lead alternately or just have one leader? Do you use a belay device that can be used in guide mode when bringing up a second? And of course - perhaps the most important thing: what is the weather like?

The weather when winter climbing isn't always horrendous and most of us have pretty decent gear these days so often you can just stand and belay in what you climb in and you might only be getting cold after some time. I did Central Trinity with my missus this January, it was pretty cold, but not too windy. I was wearing a medium weight merino baselayer and my gtx shell over it. Because I did all the leading - so wasn't at the belays for long, and its a fast route to climb (using just a single rope), I didn't ever put my belay jacket on. But ice climbing in Norway this March, it was pretty standard - build the belay, attach myself, put the reverso on it, get the seconds moving, hang pack on belay, put belay jacket on.

But the trick as ever is to have a bag that is easy enough to get into - some way to clip it to the belay and a jacket at the top that can quickly be pulled on.

In reply to TobyA:
I'd agree that there have been times I have worn the same clothers climbing as belaying and not been that much too hot when climbing or that much too cold when belaying, but most times when alternate leading something hard for you I think it's still an inferior system.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Totally agree, particularly when alternate leading as you will be on the belay for two sessions. Hence my whole anti-faff philosophy of belay jackets http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1375 (for those who haven't seen it),

In reply to TobyA:


You're questions highlight a good point as the answer to them all is along the lines of "it depends". I had in mind unpitched alternate led routes but obviously the faster you're moving or the better the weather the less the need for a belay jacket and the slower you're moving and the worse the weather the greater the need.

I didn't mean to give the idea that my suggestion was a one size fits all approach. There are times and routes where a belay jacket is going to be a good idea and there are certainly times when I've been wishing I'd put one on.
Maybe I should bother to get it out more often but I hate the faff and I certainly don't think I'd get much benefit from 'automatically' putting it on after every pitch. If you know it's going to be a long belay session then it makes sense but if there's easier ground in between crux pitches then I don't see the point getting your slings off and your bag off, unpacking the jacket then having to stuff it back in and obviously get it back in it's stuff sack at the end of the route so that everything fits back into your bag. Suppose it just depends on the route.

Ben

In reply to TobyA:
Or even a Primaloft vest rather than a big jacket? Very handy item, and not too bulky.
Im not too convinced powershield SS jackets are warm enough without another thin jacket on top (for average Scottish winter weather)?

In reply to dek:


I've got one and its great, but for me it's not enough to replace a belay jacket - I like big hoods to hide in!


Not got anything made of powershield so couldn't say, but I guess that's Stevo's point - he wants something that isn't warm enough for standing around in so he doesn't get too hot climbing. I guess it depends what you wear underneath as well. With most softshells I wear different things under it, depending on weather and what I'm doing. Sometimes a base layer and a microfleece, sometime not etc.

In reply to TobyA: Good idea, mine stuffs into it's pocket but I suppose, end of the route, just launching it in would be much quicker.

Had a read of your article, some good advice in there so thanks. I've got a Rab generator alpine that I take as a belay jacket, no faff as such in terms of hood, size etc. but it is quite thin. Maybe if I had a thicker one there would be more insentive to wear less for climbing and be able to rely on the belay jacket more. But then I'd be cooler belaying the easier pitches if I left it in the sack!

Maybe I just need to get a life and spend a little less time thinking about winter clothing in August!

Ben

In reply to CurlyStevo:

I think you have misjuged the buffalo system because your meant to sweat in it - which i admit feels a bit minging for 5 mins but then you accept it and climb and i have to say i have sped up to a climb then climbed a hard pitch and belayed for an hour in crappy conditions and the only part of me that got remotely cold was my arse from only wearing walking trousers + rab hard shell. This was while my mate was getting cold wearing a down jacket, merino + hardshell. Buffalo looks crap but for scottish winter i think its great. Each to their own though!!

In reply to Sharp:


Absolutely not - these things require dedicated forethought and planning.

In reply to johnrc:
Buffalo looks crap but for scottish winter i think its great. Each to their own though!!



That's a good point. I remember the case of the couple who were caught out overnight on the Cairngorm plateau in horrendous winter weather years ago. The rescue team reckoned one survived, only because he was wearing a full Buffalo outfit.

In reply to johnrc: Nope like said way too hot for me to walk in wearing quite a but too hot for climbing but not hot enough for belays. What works for you doesn't necessarily work for me! I prefer a more adjustable layering system.

In reply to dek: That story changes a bit every time it is retold

In reply to CurlyStevo:
How come? Was a hell of a long time ago!

In reply to CurlyStevo: It was the Guinness lady in (IIRC) 1994 I think, but there might have been others since. I wrote a research report on media representations of Scottish Mountain Rescue stories that winter for my Sociology degree, I even got interviewed on Radio Scotland about it. I was very proud!

Has anyone tried the Montane Sabretooth jacket? The specs look good, but I'd like to know how the hood works over a helmet.

In reply to J-5000:

just tried mine over a meteor III at home and can report it goes, but only just and leaves the front of the collar rather uncomfortably tight at your chin.

compare this to my baltoro alpine (my winter climbing soft shell)- well, the hood's huge, adjustable / cinchable and easy to pull on and off the helmet with one gloved hand as you warm up / cool down on the route.

i love the sabretooth as a general use softshell, but it will only just take the helmet. i'll stick to my baltoro for winter climbs...

In reply to don macb:

Thanks a lot for the info! That rules the Sabretooth out then.

In reply to J-5000:

I looked and tried on the Sabertooth and it's a quality jacket. I think the hood is designed to go underneath the helmet.

Only comes in black tho

In reply to Gazlynn:

<presently typing with sabretooth hood up beneath a meteor III)

duh- why didn't i think of that? you're quite right and very comfy it is too (although i maybe prefer a hood on the outside so i can tug it up and down depending on activity levels on a route).

the only other thing i'd say is that the super wide adjustable cuffs on the baltoro are maybe a little better for chunky winter gloves. completely different body cut from the sabretooth mind you and obviously a softshell is as much about fit as features... go and try a sabretooth on. they're really rather groovesome.

In reply to johnrc:


CurlyStevo seemed to be complaining that he got cold as a result of being wet from sweating in the Buffalo, not simply that it was sweaty. So it would seem that, according to your view of how it should work, he was using it correctly.

Most other people seem to think that getting your clothing wet from sweat (ot precipitation), and then standing around in a cold environment isn't a good idea. Whilst the pile lining will tend to wick sweat from the body quite well, it will wick into the pile. This will reduce the effective insulation of the pile (replacing trapped air with more conductive trapped water). The water will also evaporate, taking away body heat (the purpose of sweating, after all).

Having a sweat reservoir that soaks up sweat when active (preventing the body from cooling during this period by evaporation of sweat), and then continuing to cool the body long after it has become inactive, makes body temperature regulation pretty hard.

In reply to Gazlynn: I use Rab Vapourise as a summer top. Wouldn't be without my montane (similar to buffalo) for winter. Easy to vent and keeps you dry in light rain or snow.

I wear long sleeved merino baselayer, thin fleece and Montane to walk in, then add waterproof top and trousers to climb, if very cold I wear a gilet under Montane as well.

I'd freeze in what a lot of you seem to wear.

Buffalo mitts are nice as well over silk liners.

In reply to Gazlynn:

I LOVE my Montane Extreme Smock for Scottish Winter.

Walk in in thin merino baselayer with Goretex cag over the top. Strip off at bottom of climb (brrr!) and put Smock on next to skin with cag over the top, stuffing sweaty baselayer in sac. Warm and toasty!

The Montane Smock comes with an OK hood - made a few modifications to it (adding poppers to prevent velcro ripping open in high winds). But I only use the hood when walking, as for climbing I have hat/helmet/cag hood combo.

In reply to sleep talker: You wear an Extreme smock with a cag over the top!!! You must be roasting!

I wear my Extreme smock on really cold days and am still toasty warm, though to be honest I can rarely be bothered to carry it in as it is normally to warm to walk in.

In reply to MJH:

In sideways snow, I've never felt overly hot. Maybe I should try climbing on a sunny day....

In reply to Gazlynn: If you will be travelling in Europe, you may try to look at Milo brand. It's Polish brand focused on technical garments of very high quality, great design and durability (and you don't terribly overpay as for TNF). Unfortunately, they don't have retailer in UK, but they do in other countries.

http://en.milo.pl/produkty/cat/557/SoftShell

A similar alternative is DIRECTALPINE from Czech Republic.

http://www.directalpine.com/

Cheers,
Mat

In reply to Gazlynn:

I recently was looking for something similar (though also for summer alpine use) and ended up getting an Arc'teryx Venta SV in bright orange (last year's colour though; think they only do bright blue and darker colours now).

It's phenomenal, with a better hood than my Mountain Equipment Changabang (which is saying something). I've only used it for the Alps as yet and it excelled, but I am sure it will be great for the winter too.

Here are some good softshell comparison reviews:
http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Softshell-Jacket-Reviews
http://www.klettern.de/test/bekleidung/softshells-im-test.409495.5.htm (in German, but Google translate does a good job)

I also tried on a Mountain Equipment Shield (not very articulate, poor hood, no wrist velcro and apparently not very waterproof) and a Norrøna Lyngen (seemed much more designed for descent and had odd sleeves).

Hope that helps.

In reply to Kid B:

Damn The Mountain Equipment Shield was one of the next ones I was going to seriously look at. I could get it at a decent price

thanks all for your suggestions


Gaz

In reply to Gazlynn:

Yes, I think there might be a reason for that knock-down price...

I am a massive Mountain Equipment fan, particularly their hardshell jackets, but the Shield was a massive let down for me. However to be fair, some people seem to like it, and the fit was a big problem for me, so maybe it's just more suited to other body shapes:

http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/Gear-Reviews/Search-Results/Warm-layers/M...

However, do try the Venta SV if you can: for me it was it was love at first sight (or rather, try).

In reply to Gazlynn: I tend to overheat easily , I used an Arcteryx Venta AR (like the SV but without a hood) high altitude trekking last year , it was fantastic, I also got a nice breather as everyone else had to keep stopping to take off/put on their hard shells whilst I was fine just using venting zips !

In reply to Gazlynn:

I would highly recommend Arc'teryx's Gamma MX Hoody - http://www.arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?EN/Mens/Jackets-Vests/Gamma-MX-Hoody

I've been using softshells in winter for the last 5 or so years, having used everything from Mountain Equipment G2 Alpine Jacket, Patagonia Mix Masters and Buffalo style smocks. This year I climbed 35 routes and wore the Gamma MX on every single one of them in all sorts of weather and it performed fantastically, and better than any of the others I've owned. Yes its expensive, but in my experience its worth every penny and I woulden't hesitate to buy a new one at full RRP if I needed too.

I describe here what clothing system I wear in conjunction with - http://matthewjforshaw.blogspot.com/2010/12/winter-climbing-clothing.html

I'm in the process of writing a full review for the jacket which should be up soon.

In reply to yetimatt:

God Damn all you guys recommending the Arcteryx stuff !!

You know that's what I really want but I am trying real hard not to as it's loads of dosh

cheers

Gaz