UKC

Have searched but not totally satisfied. Figure of 8 works fine for me but not so much for my heavier friend who takes 10 minutes (with help) to undo his knot after a couple of falls.

What knot do you think is best for tying in?

In reply to FreshSlate:

There is no ‘best knot’, personally I favour the bowline (with stopper of course) or bowline with Yosemite finish.

In reply to FreshSlate:

The re-threaded bowline on a bight is what is taught in Germany, what I use and most of the people I know. Variously also double bowline or one-and -a -half bowline.
The link is to German Wikipedia but there are pictures or how to tie it!

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelter_Palstek

Jim

In reply to FreshSlate: Oh no. Here we go again. Why can't people look for previous threads?

In reply to FreshSlate:

youtube.com/watch?v=sP-jB5Vsv0s&


Chris

In reply to EddInaBox: Ahhh that looks quite nice. Yeah I realise there's no consensus of a 'best knot' which is why I put "what knot do you 'think' is best for tying in".
There must obviously be objectively better knots for tying in than others though, i.e. I don't see many people walking around with overhands.

In reply to Oceanrower: Because then the Forum would just be a database and not a dynamic, convenient, quick and easy means of communication. If you don't like it ignore it, that's what I do.

To the OP: there is no best although I do find a bowline with double stopper not more convenient for sport for the reasons you have outlined.

Al

In reply to FreshSlate:

Already done to death, as it were - search the forum for "bowline" and you'll find the threads.

In reply to Oceanrower:

Oh no, here we go again. Why can't people READ threads? I've said i've looked, the last major debate i've found about knots was in 2003 with the edwards bowline article. There's a few querying why they're not allowed to use very specific knots in climbing centres ect but not much like this. Why don't you just not click on the thread?

In reply to jimtitt:

How do they teach to attach it to a harness?

In reply to LastBoyScout: Ahh never tried 'bowline' as my query wasn't just about that specific knot, I'll look through those threads later. Still, this thread allows me to question personally some opinions.

Thanks for input all.

In reply to winhill:

Tie a bowline as normal. With the tail work back on yourself.

In reply to brt:

Jim said on a bight.

In reply to FreshSlate: My advice would be you stick with a fig 8 and get your mate using a bowline with a stopper so he/she can get it undone easily, but make sure you check each others knots because if the bowline is tied incorrectly the knot can undo and your mate will fall to his death, maybe squashing you to!!

In reply to winhill:
Even so - tie a bowline as normal but with a long tail, then re-thread to turn it into a bowline-on-the-bight.

Seems a bit odd to me. I'm with Chris Craggs personally - normal bowline with a stopper knot inside the loop.

A bowline on a bight is definitely handy to tie into the middle of a rope though. (No point using two separate 50m half ropes for little grit routes.) In that case you take a four-foot bight, chuck it over your head like a skipping rope and step through it while you're tying the knot and then feed the slack back through the knot and tidy up. Almost as easy as the Chris Tan 'death' larks-foot and much less scary.

In reply to dan: OK I'll "bight". See what I did there? Any knot tied incorrectly can undo, so why pick on the bowline? I'm seriously thinking of starting a bowline defense society. I don't understand why anybody with any experience would "knot" use a bowline for situations where you know the rope will be weighted. See I did it again there.

Al

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants: I chose the bowline as its the "other" main knot used, in fact the knot I use.

In reply to dan: Good man, I'll make you an honorary member of the Bowline Defense League. I was just trying to be controversial and stir up the old debate. It's raining and I'm bored.

Al

In reply to winhill:

Bit OT but: this is where the nomenclature of knots matters. What most people tie (or what they call what they tie) i.e. a fig 8 on the bight isn't! It is tied on a bight of course, but the name is wrong. What you have is a fig 8 loop (which can be rethreaded).

It's a bit confusing because some knots are named after the way they are tied or constructed and others after their form; it's not consistent though. If you take Ashley's book of knots as the standard there is no such knot as a fig 8 on a bight...

http://www.dietmar-hahm.de/sicherung/anseilen/anseilen_6.shtml gives you the technique (though it looks a little cluttered). As pointed out above have a long tail etc...

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I'm a double bowliner with double stopper personally. Never seen the stopper tied inside the loop before though. What advantage does that provide?
(Apologies if this is explained in the video... I have no sound)

In reply to NorthernGrit:

Never seen the stopper tied inside the loop before though.

Thought everyone located the stopper knot as depicted in the video i.e. on the loop that passes through the harness. Can't see where it could otherwise go.

In reply to NorthernGrit:

It is out of the way there. Where else might you tie the stopper knot, I'm note sure I understand.

Chris

In reply to winhill:

I gave a link, you didn´t click on it.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Figure 8 with a yosemite finish. All the reliability of a figure 8 but easy to untie. Problem solved!

In reply to NorthernGrit:

Its just the obvious place to tie the stopper on a 'normal' bowline.
But it does have the slight advantage that the 'tail' (and the stopper itself) are 'below' the knot out of the way, if you see what I mean. It makes the 'live' rope a little bit cleaner to clip, especially close to the waist.

In reply to FreshSlate:

If it's just because of the difficulty in untying after a fall, I think any knot is tough if a heavy person takes a proper fall on it. Better just practice the way you untie tight knots. there's a bit of an art to that in the way you work the rope to start it moving.

as to knot preference - in my humble experience the problem with knots is when people forget to tie-in correctly. usually due to getting distracted (chatting) mid-way through tying in. I use a bowline, which I can tie in a single movement that takes a couple of seconds, which can't easily be interrupted (+ a stopper).

tell your mate to either lose some weight or learn to untie knots
(or use a thicker rope or a double rope to spread the load)

each to their own I guess

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Sorry ignore me, on first viewing I thought the stopper was also being tied through the BELAY loop of the harness rather than just through the rope loop. Second viewing confirms I was just being a bit blind. That is obviously how I do it, because as you say where else would it go?

In reply to FreshSlate:

I'm a big guy and find it difficult to untie a fig 8 if I take a fall on it. If I'm sport climbing, then I always use a bowline with the stopper tied on the inside. If I'm doing a long multi-pitch or alpine route where I don't expect to fall or have to untie frequently then I use a fig 8.

I once had an issue with a stiff rope where the stopper came undone and the bowline became loose, so for situations where the not is going to be in for a while, I choose the fig 8 as I've never had a problem with a fig 8 becoming loose.

In reply to FreshSlate: I favour a bowline with a stopper knot. Quick and easy to tie, and easy to undo after loading.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Sorry to go off at a bit of an angle here. We all know that both the fig 8 and the bowline knots are safe tie-in knots when tied correctly, But does anyone know why in IFSC comps you have to use a fig 8 with a stopper knot.

Again sorry for hi-jacking the thread.

In reply to jimtitt:

Yes I did, and I found the english version of the same page too.

In reply to FreshSlate:

The best knot is the one you can tie 100% reliably no matter how tired you are.

In reply to GrahamD: Very good point!!

i always use a bowline unless.... i am going to belay off the rope loop, or if im tieing in to 2 ropes, then i use a fig8 (just find it more tidy with pairs)

In reply to FreshSlate:

I use a Bowline with a stopper, I usually take >20 falls per indoor session, so a figure of eight isn't an option.

In reply to John1923:

You do know the idea is to hang on?

In reply to ashley1_scott:

I'd guess that competitions insist on a rethreaded fig 8 tie in as it's appearance makes it easy to check visually.

In reply to Charlie_Zero:

That's my understanding. In fact at one wall that was the reason they gave for not allowing me to tie on with a bowline despite that fact that I had climbed there for several months and never even seen a floor walker.

Al

In reply to Charlie_Zero:

A 'reason' I have never understood.

http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/76852983


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

That seems to confirm it actually, Chris!

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I guess one problem is that there are so many legitimate bowline variants. I use the DAV-style rethreaded bowline - which I learned last year from a DAV trainer. It is quicker and easier to tie, and neater, than an fig-8. But there seem to be so many different Edwards/Yosemite/clove hitch/double variants, some of which do look pretty complex at first glance.

I do get impatient with my partners moaning that they "can't" check a rethreaded bowline (i.e. are too lazy to bother learning one more knot)

In reply to winhill:


Exactly, that knot on the right looks completely wrong to me!

In reply to FreshSlate:

The knot I use and teach my clients to use whilst climbing either indoors on walls or multi pitching towers in the dolomites is the re-threaded figure of eight with a stopper. The stopper isnt there to add security to the knot but to demonstrate I have enough tail left on the knot. If the knot has been loaded yes it can become slightly difficult to undue. But only slightly. Rather than trying to just pull the knot through why dont you 'break' the knot by folding the top curves over the rope. Obviously this is more difficult to explain in text but it is effective even after 3:1 hauling a 90kg client the last 15 meters of a climb :S It is also very easy to identify that this knot has been tied correctly.

The Bowline is a very easy knot to release after significant loading but:

1. Has a tendarncy to creep undone (though with an suitable stopper this shouldnt be a problem)
2. Is easily tied incorrectly by begginers/rusty climbers.

The latter point being the most common source of failing.

Hope this helps.

Ash

In reply to FreshSlate:
We've been through this before but one reason for the spurious orthodoxy of the figure-of-eight is that it was once the the basis of a complete system of both tying-on and belay construction which only required a beginner to learn one knot. However, that was in the days when the F-o-8 was tied with a bight and then clipped to a krab on the waist loop. In my opinion, the re-threaded F-o-8 used nowadays with a harness is quite complicated to tie, certainly compared to the bowline.

In reply to Andy Long:
Complicated? Perhaps if you have sausages for fingers.....

In reply to Andy Long: Yes I would have said that the bowline was easier to demonstrate than the F8 but as it was the first knot I learnt I would say that wouldn't I. I use both on a regular basis but on a couple of occasions, when asked to demonstrate a f8, I have had to skulk off into a corner to remind myself. I can do it instinctively every time for myself but have to think about it to demonstrate. That might be an age thing though

Al

In reply to Ash_Johnson:




That's also the most common ‘source of failing’ for the rethreaded figure of eight.

In reply to Ash_Johnson:
Nothing to do with fingers, just its two-stage construction. Most of us have developed an instinctive grasp of the architecture of knots. Beginners don't have that. I've taught both the 8 and the bowline and in my experience they seem to find the re-threaded 8 hardest to learn. Could just be my teaching.
Incidentally, I have to confess that despite many attempts I've never managed to work out how to tie a bowline wrongly.

In reply to FreshSlate: It's been suggested to me that belaying off a Bowline (by which I mean my belay device is attached to the loop of rope at my harness via a crab) is not safe because of forces pulling in different directions. Any comments on that? also is there any empirical evidence about these knots?
For what it's worth I usually use a Bowline, less faff for me to tie and I just like the knot.

In reply to puppythedog:

Creating a three-way load on your tie-in loop - self, anchor, belayee - is not a good idea with either a fig-8 or a bowline.

Otoh, when I'm belaying he leader on multipitch I often clip the belay device into both my loop and one of the ropes on the basis of "why not? It can't do any harm".

In reply to puppythedog:
A standard bowline (i.e. free end on the inside of the loop) will pull undone under a cross-load if there is no tension in the main rope. A left-handed bowline (free-end on the outside) is more stable under those circumstances. Any kind of locking finish - stopper knot, Yosemite, Edwards, Janus etc. will prevent this.

As somebody else mentioned, the 8 is also unstable under a cross-load. There was an abseiling fatality a few years ago.

In reply to Andy Long:


Got any kind of reference for what happened in that accident Andy?

In reply to AlH:
Go to the Needlesports website and find your way to article on joining abseil ropes. Various links and a report on some tests by Lyon. Sorry to be such an old fart who doesn't know how to insert links.

In reply to FreshSlate:

I use a combination. For trad, where I am niot expecting to fall and will stay tied in for a belay at the top I'll use the rethreaded 8.

Indoors and for sport, I tie a bowline with a Yosemite finish and then do the standard grapevine stopper above it (belt and braces).

Trad with two seconds, I'll use a bowline on a bight in the centre of the rope.

It seems to me that the Zeppelin Loop would be the best of both worlds, but I've not heard of anyone using it to tie in.

In reply to FreshSlate: Would having your rope spliced be a problem?

In reply to sarahlizzy:
A Zep eh? Sehr gut, sehr gut. No I've never seen it used either. It would certainly be a fun way to confuse the wall-brats.

In reply to FreshSlate: |nybobody use a Tarbuck knot these days?

Al

In reply to Andy Long:


This is the direct link.
http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=75b7be92-45dd-474...

Also worth pointing out this UKC article which cites loading across a figure of eight loop as an example of good practice!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1129

In reply to Markel:
"Also worth pointing out this UKC article which cites loading across a figure of eight loop as an example of good practice!"

if you read the article I think it says quite the opposite.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


Really, what bit is that? The photo clearly shows a tie-in loop being loaded in a way that could roll the knot, and I can't see anything in the text that explains why that is bad.

Entirely possible that I've missed something though...

In reply to Markel:

Have you actually tried to 'roll' a F of 8 open? I have experimented, and unless the knot is ridiculous loose it won't come undone.


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:



Had a quick play around with one, but no, not really based on personal experience. I was really just reporting the testing/ accident reports linked above. Obviously it isn't that likely or there would be many more accidents/ fatalities, but I still wouldn't risk it if there was no need, especially not on wet/ icy ropes.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I'm inclined to agree. I've tried too. It's possible to get rather anal about all these knots. Fun though.

In reply to Andy Long:


Probably some truth in that, but some of the tests are a little alarming. On the tests on frozen rope (lyon tests), a well dressed and tightened knot flipped at 30kg! Tom Moyer, who did some pretty exhaustive testing has very clear opinions too, which I would say carry some weight.

As far as I'm concerned, the risks associated with belaying off a figure eight loop (where the load will come onto the harness) are easily avoidable and as such not worth taking. I wouldn't put it any more strongly than that.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

However a word of caution;- the common practice of sticking the end of the 8 back through to tidy it up causes the rolling and failure to be at very low levels, Mammut give (1.6kN ca 160kg) from their tests.
There is a report here (in German of course!) http://www.bergundsteigen.at/file.php/archiv/2011/2/18-19%20%28krautundruab...

Jim

In reply to EddInaBox:

I don't see how. It is very easy to identify that the re-threaded figure of eight has been tied correctly as funnily enough, it looks like two figures of eight on top of one another.

Also I have never had a problem teaching people how to tie a fugure of eight and I have instructed some 250+ Clients.

What does the bowline looke like? A bowline.....

In reply to Andy Long:

The above mesage was also intended as a reply to yourself.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Any reason nobody has mentioned a Fig of 9?? even easier to untied than a fig 8 and self dressing.

In reply to Ash_Johnson:
>

Yes, your point being...?

In reply to Andy Long:

I think the obvious point is that it is easier for learners to check their own and others' knots with an 8.

In reply to winhill:
I was being a bit facetious wasn't I. You can teach a beginner just about any knot if you want to, but the recognisability of the 8 is a major factor - perhaps its only advantage. Certainly I teach it to beginners, if for no other reason than that it's uncontentious and accepted everywhere. I'd never dream of using it for my personal climbing though. I'm a big boy now, I've moved on.

In reply to Andy Long:

I think the obvious point is that it is easier for learners who have been taught how to tie a rethreaded figure of eight but not been taught how to tie a bowline, to check their own and others' knots with an 8.

In reply to Ash_Johnson:


It is fair to say that the most common reason for any tying-in knot to fail is that the intended knot was not the knot that was actually tied, and that that is most likely to happen when being tied by inexperienced or rusty or tired climbers. The statement you made can be applied to any knot, whether it is easy to check is another matter and one I suspect we might not agree on.

In reply to Andy Long:

I suspect the rarity is something to do with it not being in Ashley. Hardly anyone seems to know it, yet as loop knots go it seems to have much to recommend it.

In reply to mgg:

Annoying as hell to tie by rethreading.

In reply to sarahlizzy:
I agree.

In reply to Ash_Johnson:

Yes, the bowline looks like a bowline. The figure of eight looks like a figure of eight. The overhand looks like an overhand....

A re-threaded bowline looks like two bowlines on top of one another. So?

In reply to sarahlizzy:

Only downside I can see is the working end comes out at 90 degrees to the knot but that's an annoyance rather than anything worse.

In reply to Oceanrower:

Why dont you read others comments such as:

EddInaBox on - 12:01 Fri

I thought it was fairly obvious what I was saying. Maybe I should have aimed it a bit lower?

In reply to FreshSlate:

Why didn't you find this, of 2010 :
www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=445944&new=6271920&lgn=35675

which is much like the current thread. There are some helpful URLinks in this referred-to thread which you might care to check (for some novel ideas, as well).

*kN*

In reply to sarahlizzy:

It's not obvious to me how one would tie it without have two free rope ends.

And the appearance - full-of-holes, deceptively looking as if it could fall apart at any moment - would also be at the very least a psychological disadvantage. If not even perhaps a real disadvantage: I'm not sure how self-untying it might be when not under load. Probably at least as much as an unsecured single bowline, if not more so.

In reply to FreshSlate:

he could always try a figure of 9 which is easier to untie after loading and of course the good old bowline

In reply to Markel:

I concur in being cautious here : the denotation of "_a_ Fof8" must be understood to be quite limited in scope --for there is quite some variety of materials in degree of elasticity, flexibility, slickness (and, here, less-slick might be the worse), and (when joining abseil ropes) diameter combinations & *positions*, as well as what exact geometry of knot is this "F of 8"!
Note that in this cited article, the first-shown Fo8 has no stopper; the later ones do.

One precaution to take, if using the Fof8 eye knot in this ring-loaded manner, is to set the knot prior to such use, FOR such use : tension it by pulling the eyelegs in opposition to the knot *body* (i.e., gripping the body), then haul tight the mainline & tail, then repeat the first step to set. This will help resist the prying open forces of ring-loading.

*kN*

In reply to AlanLittle:

I think you're thinking of the zeppelin bend, rather than the loop form (http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html )
Very nice knot - has anybody ever used it to tie in? I think I'll try it next time I go to the gym!

In reply to MJ:

I'm not quite sure what you specifically mean by through the loop - but I USED TO tie the double bowline then loop the rope back over the open rope, pass it up and tie it on. That keeps the knot even looser - which I found out the hardway, seconding to find my double had become a single and was working it's way back through the harness.

NOW I tie the double with a lengthy tail, double knot it a fair way away from the knot... and check it every few minutes.

In reply to FreshSlate: Sadly two friends were involved in a fatal accident were the use of a bowline to tie is thought to have been a major factor .

This said the knot used is irrelevant if you don't build in a simple practice of checking your knot and checking your belay device. Knots are at their most potentially dangerous in an environment where you feel most comfortable and relaxed and least attentive. I personally dint mind an extra minute spent untying a figure of 8 knot, I spend more time stuck in tragic on the way to the wall.

In reply to nrussell:
I tried the Zep at the wall tonight. Faffed around, fell off and generally put it through its paces. Very strong, didn't jam and has a wide-radius first turn. Also a very elegant and economical knot. An absolute bugger to tie though and, being a two-stager, can deceive the unwary. While I was about it I checked a number of other knots (yeah, I get bored at climbing walls). The water knot, the "reverse Edwards" (end-binding followed by Yosemite finish) and the bowline-on-a-bight. All worked. Personally I'll stick to the Edwards, just about perfect tie-on for an experienced climber.
After that I went to the pub and now I'm sitting here pontificating. Every word is true though.

In reply to FreshSlate:
I always use the granny knot