UKC

My two neighbours, neigbour A and Neighbour B are having a boundary dispute.

Neighbour A who has lived in his house for 5 years believes that its garden boundary is marked by the 4 meter high stone wall that adjoins the previously disused land recently bought by neighbour B on which to build a house.

Neighbour B has made measurements based on the Land registry map drawn in 2005 (there is no previous LR map) and says the boundary is 1.3 metres away from the wall and has therefore claimed that land.

The previous owners of both pieces of land, the owner of land B before before that (for 70 years+) and all the neighbours who have been asked, some of whom have lived in the village all their lives, confirm that the wall (the retaining wall of a previous building) has always been the boundary.

However, neighbour B is correct that the LR map doesn't show that.

So basically the LR map suggests one thing but all the historical evidence and the position of the wall show the other.

Who is right and how can that be proven?

In reply to Postmanpat: Probably needs specialist legal advice.

Land registry maps are not always correct. I'd want to investigate who made that map, how and when.

A can almost certainly claim adverse possession anyway.

When did B buy the land and from whom? there should have been a plan provided - I suspect that B needs to go claim from the vendor and/or his solicitor.

If you talk to LR Im sure there is an arbitration proedure.

In reply to Postmanpat: Are you either A or B? And is either A or B the lawyer from your other thread? Oh, I have no idea who owns the land, sorry!

In reply to MG:

No,I am neighbour "C". There was reasonable doubt where my boundary with neighbour B lay so I compromised.

The lawyer is not relevant. He owns a field on the other side!

In reply to Postmanpat: You could try appealing to the cooperative nature of all involved.

In reply to MG:

But if somebody came and bought the house next to yours and then said they were going to knock down a 70 year old wall and the sheds within it and take 1.3 metres of what you had always regarded as yours as had everybody else for 70 years would you be keen to compromise?

In reply to Postmanpat: Of course not. But I am a polar bear.

In reply to MG:

In that case neighbour B might be well advised to back off!

In reply to Postmanpat:
If Num Num were the judge here, he would investigate if neighbour B purchased the land in the knowledge that the LR measurement went beyond the established boundary wall, which is unlikely. Therefore in Num Num's opinion, as judge, neighbour B, at the time of purchase, was happy with the parcel of land that he was buying at the price paid and that the subsequent wielding of the tape measure has simply been driven by greed. In which case Num Num would find in favour of neighbour A and neighbour B could go f*ck himself. And pay the costs.

In reply to Postmanpat: do you mean the boundary is 1.3 m inside A's garden or 1.3 m outside A's garden.

If it's inside, from the very broad information you have given, it sounds like A would have a good case of adverse possession, although since he only owned it for 5 years, he'd need to be sure the conveyance under which he bought the house was done correctly, and he'd need some cooperation from the past owner (s) too probably.

A & B need solicitors though, not advice from punters on a climbing forum.

In reply to M0nkey:
According to the LR map, 1.3m inside

Previous owner was there for 25 years and confirms the wall was the boundary and is happy to produce a signed affadavit to that effect.


I know. They'll end up doing that but I thought some lawyers on here might be able to give some colour on the likely issues/outcome.

In reply to Postmanpat:

I would suggest that the weight of historical evidence would support A's claim. However, they would need to get long-time residence to sign statements to that affect. But, if done correctly, it would be a strong counter claim to the LR map, which - as someone pointed out - are not always correct.

In reply to Postmanpat:

If neighbour B bought a plot of land with 2 dubious/disputed boundaries and his solicitor never picked up on it then I suspect he should pursue his solicitor.

In reply to Postmanpat:

A statutory declaration(s) by a previous owner/ long standing village resident as to the correct position of the boundary would overrule the incorrect LR plan and the weight of evidence given in your resume would seem to favour owner A.

As has been pointed out LR plans can be incorrect and an ammendment will be required.

A question. When owner B first viewed the land just 5 years ago and agreed to buy where did he/she think the boundary was? The existing wall or some imaginary undefined line as shown on the LR plan? In the absence of any indication to the contrary and based on many years of observing human nature practicing as a Surveyor in trying to settle such disputes, I suspect that all parties to the transaction believed it to be the existing wall - people buy what they see. If it was meant to be an undefined boundary as now claimed it raises the question as to why this didn't come to light then? Sounds to me like someone trying to capitalise on a LR error.

In reply to timjones:

Not nessessarily. Solicitors are not surveyors and unless there was something to alert them to the fact that the LR plan might be wrong, they will rely on it. As I say in the post above people generally buy what they see, and the LR plan is subsequently found to be incorrect only when plans say for building works are prepared.

In reply to Trangia:


Thanks. Owner B actually bought the land last year. Interestingly their architect's plans for the planning application clearly imply that he (and by implication the owner) assumed the wall was the boundary and only later claimed the additional land.

In reply to Trangia:
Thanks for help.How can establish why the LR put the boundary where they did (my guess it was a "Friday afternoon error" and how does one get an amendment?)

In reply to Postmanpat:

As you say probably a Friday afternoon error or an OS error (suprisingly OS maps are sometimes wrong).

Both parties will have to agree there is an error first then their solicitors should contact the LR requesting an ammendment. It's in both parties' interests to get it rectified as this will affect future sales.

But on the info you have given it would appear that B hasn't a case. If they continue to dispute it it will cost a bomb in legal/surveyors fees. Far better to agree between them to appoint an independant surveyor to arbitrate and prepare an ammended plan.

In reply to Trangia:

Many thanks. I'll pass it on. Neighbour B appears to be very stubborn but probably cannot afford big legal fees.

In reply to Trangia:

It's precisely because of the big legal fees that A should consider pursuing it through the courts. It looks like he has the better case so the pressure in terms of costs will weigh heavier on B.

In reply to M0nkey:

Chances are that a court would appoint an independent surveyor to determine the boundary anyway, so the parties may as well go straight to one. There is nothing to stop A agreeing to this line of action on the basis that B pays. Going the whole hog through the courts is a bit of a sledgehammer approach, it leads to stress on both parties and will sour the relationship between them. Also any history of a boundary dispute has to be declared when either sell - a sure dampner on a sale because no one wants to buy into a situation where the neighbour is anti.

Nip it in the bud now before it becomes a declarable boundary dispute.

In reply to birdie num num:

num num the wise hath spoken!

In reply to Postmanpat:

What scale is the land registry map at?

In reply to ebygomm:

Normally 1/1250

In reply to Trangia: If the boundary follows an OS mastermap feature then positional accuracy is within 1m with a 99% confidence level (presuming it's an urban area). To decide that something is 1.3 (point 3!!) out based solely on a 1/1250 map ignoring fairly obvious features on the ground is ludicrous .

That's without even considering the PAIP which was happening round about 2005

In reply to ebygomm:


Spot on! It just shows how ludicrous some bounday disputes are.

When I was practicing I always took the attitude that whilst scaling off was a useful tool it was an indication only. Obviously written dimensions are best, but unfortunately they are in the minority, and sometimes they too were pretty useless if the start point could not be accurately identified in relation to a fixed point.

Footpaths might be visible due to footwear, but their route can vary over the years. When dealing with wayleaves the statutory authorities used to try and claim that they had sited manhole covers and power cable poles on footpaths through fields to try and avoid paying for them. I remember arguing successfully that this was a nonsense because no footpath over a field will remain in precicely the same route and a footpath shown doted on an OS map is only indicative.

Physical features - walls, buildings, fences etc are also useful and at times fairly conclusive evidence, but even they need to be treated with caution. The solider and older the better. Post and wire fences are easily moved, walls are more permanent. Hedges can be a guide but they are living things and determining the exact centre line can be difficult.

Rather like mountain navigation interpreting old boundaries is a fascinating subject and can be subject to many variables.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Trangia is pretty much on the money. I'd only add that the Land Registry Rules actually spell out that the boundaries on the LR plans are for guidance only.

jcm

In reply to Postmanpat:

What do Neighbour A's property deeds say?

In reply to Postmanpat: Land registry errors certainly do occur it came to light that the back garden was unregistered land, ie. owned by nobody.
This only came to light because I spotted it.
My solicitor had to go back through previous purchasers solicitors to find where the cock up had occured and rectify the mistake, the garden clearly did belong to the house but it delayed me buying it by about 2 months.

Re this situation, buyer B seems like a bit of a tosser, he can't expect a welcome in his neighbourood. Some battles aren't worth the hassle of fighting.

In reply to Postmanpat:

as others have hinted at, it is usually impossible to tell from a land registry map where a boundary is to within 1.3m.

does the LR map have red pen lines overlaying an OS master map feature?

if so, think about the thickness of those red lines given the scale of the map

they are probably 5m or even 10m wide when the scale of the map is taken into account. so it is down to deciding what that master map feature under the red line in question represents.

it sounds like it is probably the wall, in the abbsence of any other physical feature on the ground.

if that doesn't settle the argument and your neighbours end up getting in surveyors to measure out where the boundary is then it (a) gets very epensive and (b) can be a bit of a lottery as to where the boundary is finally decided to be

hth