UKC

Having read this article: http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=3614, I wonder whether controlled down-climbing might be good for the control or perhaps even prevention of tendon problems of the elbow and shoulder. The article recommends excentric exercises (controlled extension of muscles/tendons under load) for treating tendonitis. It would seem to me that down-climbing should be doing exactly that.
I have been nursing a "grumbling" shoulder and elbow for several months - low level aches, never getting much worse nor much better - and it seems to fit the description of mild tendonitis. The last couple of weeks I have been doing cirtcuits involving down-climbing problems, and the shoulder and elbow seem a bit better (despite the,for me, high intensity of ther training). Only anecdotal, I know, but I wonder if there is something in it.

Hi Robert,

I wonder why it might help?

I have read that we have more control on the eccentric phase of movement and some weight lifters exploit this by actually having a spotter load extra weight for the way down! Perhaps unsurprisingly this is associated with more muscle tearing, pain, and longer recovery. I don't remember those statements referring to any original research though. Intuitively (layman's guess - I am not qualified in any medical field whatsoever) I would assume that as long as huge weights weren't used it would mostly be fine.

-mike.

In reply to Robert Durran: Runners get tendonitus from over doing one muscle group and working on another provides balance...sounds like it could be similar..

In reply to IainRUK:

No, this is not the same. It is using the same muscles, but loaded while extending rather than contracting. For example, slowly reversing a pull up.

In reply to Robert Durran: If it works for you, great.

I´ve got tendonitis (tennis) elbow and it gets way worse if I do much downclimbing, esp. if my arms are fully outstretched a lot.
Important for me is to do a proper warm-up and to avoid nasty crimps and high lock-offs. Pushups and stretching exercises also seem to help a lot.

In reply to Robert Durran:
No. Down climbing is still a pulling movement. You need to push.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The problem with down climbing, is that it is very easy to "drop" onto holds as opposed to doing it in an controlled manner.
I think people did the same with Bachar ladders, which caused shoulder and elbow injuries..

In reply to TheHorroffice:

No. Unless I have completely misunderstood what "eccentric" means (I have just checked and I don't think I have), it is still a pulling action, though the actual movement is in the other direction. eg Lowering your body back down after doing a pull up is eccentric - you are still using your biceps to control the lower - whereas doing a push up is not eccentric and is a pushing action using the triceps. I think you might be confusing eccentric with antagonistic (biceps and triceps are antagonistic muscles).

In reply to MJ:

Yes, I am well aware of that, which is why I said the down climbing should be controlled, like a steadily reversed pull up.

In reply to Robert Durran: Had some achilies problems a few years ago, did lots of reading up on it and found some research about eccentric lowers. These were effective in treating tendonosis ( where the collagen fibres in the tendon have not repaired properly or have broken down - cant quite remember). Anyway, the eccentric lowers (lengthening the achilies / calf under load - in this case bodyweight) help to realign the collagen fibres. It worked on my achilies and also on an elbow problem I had. It wont work with tendonitis (inflamation of the tendon sheath i think) but i remeber reading that long term tendon problems are likely to be 'osis' not 'itis'. I have no experience other my own injuries that were fixed and no idea what im talking about other than some research i read. So maybe it could work - if its tendonosis.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I like the idea of this. I've been trying to deal with tendonosis for years and my failiure to deal with it stems mainly from my low boredom threshold for doing any kind of repetitive training that isn't actually climbing (weights,yoga,pilates etc) I just can't keep at a recovery regime long enough to cope with the length of time it takes for tendons to get strong (and I'm sure i'm not alone in this).

However I'd happily start downclimbing every route I do at the wall this winter and it would seem to me that reversing moves in a slow controlled way is excentric training. The stamina gains and increased downclimbing skill would just be a bonus.

Just to clarify (for my-self and others, jump in and correct me if i'm wrong.)

The 3 keys to recovery are:

1) increasing the flexability of the flexor muscle.
2) building up the opposing extensor muscle to bring it more in balance with the flexor.
3) building up the tendon strength in balance with flexor muscle through excentric training.

Excentric training helps as normally the tendon receives less blood-flow than the associated muscle and therefore insreases in strength slower. The muscle gets too strong for the tendon (particularly with sudden increases in training) and causes it stress which starts as inflamation (tendonitis) and over time will turn into damage to the tendon(tendonosis).
When a muscle is worked excentricly it is only at around 40% of its capacity whereas the tendon is still at 100%, giving it a chance to catch up in the strength race.

Is that right?

In reply to Robert Durran:
Crikey! Well done.
I'd still rather do some push ups though.

In reply to Robert Durran: as stated earlier, down climbing is still pulling, unless you're pushing the holds up when you downclimb, you're using the same muscles as climbing up.

In reply to Steeve:

You are right that you will still be using the same muscles downclimbing but the aim of excentric excersise isn't to use different muscles (as in pushing) but using the same muscles through an extending/lengthening motion (excentric) rather than a contracting/shortening one (concentric).
As you pull up the muscle is contracting,as you lower down the muscle is extending.

In reply to Robert Durran:

there's a big down movement in this video, that i wouldn't like to do

http://youtu.be/Zp_Fom-kjOk?t=1m59s

In reply to Robert Durran: I don't think this will work. You want to treat elbow/shoulder injury. Starting with the elbow the most common eccentric (note the spelling) exercises to treat golfers/tennis elbow are eccentric wrist curls and the one shown in the video. I don't think, during down climbing, you simulate these eccentric exercises. You also mention shoulder problems, there are many exercises associated with many different possible shoulder injuries (it's a complex joint). It seems unlikely that down climbing will eccentric exercise the specific muscles that might be causing your injury. Personally I can only really see down climbing exercising the biceps eccentrically, so one might hypothesis that it could be used to rehabilitate a biceps injury.

To add to your anecdote I had bad elbows and did a lot of down climbing. Down climbing neither prevented or fixed the injury.

In reply to highrepute:

Presumably the muscles/tendons which get injured are the ones you use when climbing. Presumably, if you precisely reverse a piece of climbing, you are eccentrically using precisely the same muscles/tendons used climing up. This seems obvious! No idea whether it is good for you though......

In reply to Robert Durran:
FWIW Robert, here's my opinion.


It isn't. You'll exacerbate the damage by comfortably putting through your tissues loads which would be obviously stressful were you to be applying them concentrically. If you want rehab, stick to controlled rehab exercises rather than exercise which is known to facilitate applying force greater than you can muster concentrically. That, is training.

I disagree that climbing down uses the muscles in the same way as climbing up. If I am on a higher holds going to a lower holds I will be using a a combination of eccentric (lowering myself), isometric (gripping and releasing without any change in fibre) and concentric (there will still be holds that I need to pull on such as at the side) contractions. If my arm is bent at the elbow and I am straightening to make downward motion that is eccentric where the fibres elongate rather than shorten.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Milesy has already replied with basically what I'm about to say.

Take the muscles that control you fingers; whether you're climbing up or down you'll use these in the same way, to grip onto the holds, these are the muscles and tendons that can cause pain in the elbow if injured.

The muscles that often get injured in the shoulder are stabilizers, the muscles that do things like hold the humerus or scapula in place, again doesn't matter which way you're climbing these muscles will still be doing the same job.

you specified elbow/shoulder injuries and I believe that down climbing will not eccentrically many of the muscles associated with these joints.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Hi Robert

You gave me a bit of advice on here a while ago when I posted about my dislocated shoulder - see a decent physio! I suspect a grumbling shoulder and elbow could be almost anything, I had a dull ache in my shoulder leading up to when it popped out... To to be fair it popped out on a very specific move but I think the general weakness of the shoulder was a factor too.

Even better than seeing a physio would be to see a specialist and get them to diagnose something, then take their advice. This is the normal process over here in Germany (GP -> specialist -> physio) whereas in the UK because it's so horrendously slow getting to specialists, often people just go privately straight to physios. In my (limited) experience of doing exactly that in the UK it's totally hit and miss, and more often miss about how good the physiotherapy will be - at the end of the day you need to know exactly what's happened in your body before you can treat it.

It's another topic but having lived in four countries now, the UK is joint last in my anecdotal list of good places to get injured. 1st is Germany by a mile, then Greece (quick and cheap access to specialists) and UK and Australia are joint last place and a bit useless.

In reply to Robert Durran:

i think for this to work, you need to be climbing upside down otherwise you still use the same muscles in much the same way as others above have said.

I was trying to find a way to balance the shoulders and elbows recently and went to a gymnastic class, on the basis that floor and bar work involving hand stands and suchlike, would provide a good balance for the climbing muscles. I had to give it up though cos everyone said it made me look a right woofter.

In reply to Robert Durran:

It could be worth buying the book One Move Too Many published by Petzl and taking it to a physio?

It's really detailed about all kinds of climbing injuries.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to Robert Durran: if you enjoy down climbing, or you like the pump climbing for longer without getting off gives you; down climb.