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After several years my ancient triple point jacket finally seems to be reaching retirement age, so I have decided to start looking around for a replacement.
Basically I'm after a generally bombproof go anywhere jacket that is likely to still be waterproof in 5 years, with desirable but unfashionable features like:
- storm flaps rather than relying on waterproof zips. I always find they eventually stop working.
- decent hood, preferably wired
- plenty of pockets for carrying a ton of extra stuff through airports.
- Tough fabric that doesn't stop being waterproof after getting dirty or rolled into a ball and then sat on.
I was going to say "and not goretex", but I'm told they have improved their longevity a bit in recent years.
I always liked the idea of paramo, but find them too hot. The new ones look thinner though.
So far my research has thrown up:
ME Ogre: Goretex XCR. looks promising apart from the lack of flaps on the zips.
Vaude Grand Combin/Jorasses: Sympatex. Looks good, but V expensive and nobody seems to sell them in the uk.
Haglofs: Various fabrics. Seem to favour a mix of flaps and waterproof zips for some reason.
Keela Munro: Own fabric. Inexpensive, looks hard wearing but the lining makes me think it would make me run hot.
Are there any others I should consider? Any of these I should avoid?
Basically I'm after a generally bombproof go anywhere jacket that is likely to still be waterproof in 5 years, with desirable but unfashionable features like:
- storm flaps rather than relying on waterproof zips. I always find they eventually stop working.
- decent hood, preferably wired
- plenty of pockets for carrying a ton of extra stuff through airports.
- Tough fabric that doesn't stop being waterproof after getting dirty or rolled into a ball and then sat on.
I was going to say "and not goretex", but I'm told they have improved their longevity a bit in recent years.
I always liked the idea of paramo, but find them too hot. The new ones look thinner though.
So far my research has thrown up:
ME Ogre: Goretex XCR. looks promising apart from the lack of flaps on the zips.
Vaude Grand Combin/Jorasses: Sympatex. Looks good, but V expensive and nobody seems to sell them in the uk.
Haglofs: Various fabrics. Seem to favour a mix of flaps and waterproof zips for some reason.
Keela Munro: Own fabric. Inexpensive, looks hard wearing but the lining makes me think it would make me run hot.
Are there any others I should consider? Any of these I should avoid?
In reply to davidbeynon: The ME Kongur gets alot of good reviews for waterproofness. I remember reading something about it being the only jacket Trail magazine have ever given 50/50 to. They also do a MRT version of for real bombproof longevity, at a price though.
In reply to Andy_B39:
Although it gets a couple of rather damning user reviews on Trail's own web site: http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/Gear-Reviews/Search-Results/Waterproofs/M...
> (In reply to davidbeynon) The ME Kongur gets alot of good reviews for waterproofness. I remember reading something about it being the only jacket Trail magazine have ever given 50/50 to.
Although it gets a couple of rather damning user reviews on Trail's own web site: http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/Gear-Reviews/Search-Results/Waterproofs/M...
In reply to davidbeynon: My solution to this sort of thing is normally to skip the internet based search for a theoretically perfect jacket, go to an outdoors shop that I trust to give good advice and not stock anything rubbish, ask them what they've got that fits my specifications and then go for the one that fits best.
In reply to davidbeynon: If you can lay your hands on a NATO green Marmot Glenmore lodge guides jacket snap it up, far better than the civvies jobbie, less unnecessary pockets and all that stuff, tough as hell . Mine is just on it's last legs after many a year of outstanding service. So if you do find you can you give me the heads up.
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Trying the thing on is important, but given that most shops seem to carry the kind of thing I'm not interested in owning it helps to have a short list & some idea where to find it first.
Trying the thing on is important, but given that most shops seem to carry the kind of thing I'm not interested in owning it helps to have a short list & some idea where to find it first.
In reply to Martin W:
It looks as if the issue there is that the pocket itself is waterproof so it filled up and gave the blokes phone a dunking. Mesh would have let the person get damp but probably saved the shiny electronics.
A mate of mine lost a camera to a "waterproof" zip and waterproof pocket once.
It looks as if the issue there is that the pocket itself is waterproof so it filled up and gave the blokes phone a dunking. Mesh would have let the person get damp but probably saved the shiny electronics.
A mate of mine lost a camera to a "waterproof" zip and waterproof pocket once.
In reply to davidbeynon: If you can find one, the Mountain Hardwear Ethereal FTX ultra jacket was absolutely incredible and right up your street!
Closest thing I've come to that since mine is the Klattermusen Brede, though that does cut close to the upper ends of extreme... and heavy.
Closest thing I've come to that since mine is the Klattermusen Brede, though that does cut close to the upper ends of extreme... and heavy.
In reply to davidbeynon:
Oh right, I thought the only thing on your list that wasn't pretty standard was the large number of pockets (which seem to be a victim of the tendency to optimize everything for maximum climbing performance even when it's not actually going to be used for cutting edge climbing...). If I went to a shop where the majority of their winter hardshells didn't have properly wired hoods, I'd start looking for a different shop...
I've got a Rab Suilven which is good and would be pretty much what you're after, but they don't seem to make them any more. The Latok (not the Latok Alpine) looks like it does similar stuff.
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
>
> Trying the thing on is important, but given that most shops seem to carry the kind of thing I'm not interested in owning it helps to have a short list & some idea where to find it first.
>
> Trying the thing on is important, but given that most shops seem to carry the kind of thing I'm not interested in owning it helps to have a short list & some idea where to find it first.
Oh right, I thought the only thing on your list that wasn't pretty standard was the large number of pockets (which seem to be a victim of the tendency to optimize everything for maximum climbing performance even when it's not actually going to be used for cutting edge climbing...). If I went to a shop where the majority of their winter hardshells didn't have properly wired hoods, I'd start looking for a different shop...
I've got a Rab Suilven which is good and would be pretty much what you're after, but they don't seem to make them any more. The Latok (not the Latok Alpine) looks like it does similar stuff.
In reply to davidbeynon:
Patagonia Storm Jacket, if you can still pick one up. Epicentre were doing them for £90 a while back, may be worth giving them a ring to see if they've got one or two left.
Patagonia Storm Jacket, if you can still pick one up. Epicentre were doing them for £90 a while back, may be worth giving them a ring to see if they've got one or two left.
In reply to davidbeynon:
I have an ME Kongur MRT and that thing is awesome. I bought it mainly because it would stand up to geological fieldwork as well as climbing/scrambling/walking but the thing really is bombproof. I've dragged it up thrutchy Stanage chimney 'classics' amongst other things and it's as good as new. Many decent pockets, excellent helmet-compatible hood and good fit.
Expensive, but worth it in my books. If you don't need the extra reinforcement then get the standard Kongur - I bet it's still a bomber bit of kit.
I have an ME Kongur MRT and that thing is awesome. I bought it mainly because it would stand up to geological fieldwork as well as climbing/scrambling/walking but the thing really is bombproof. I've dragged it up thrutchy Stanage chimney 'classics' amongst other things and it's as good as new. Many decent pockets, excellent helmet-compatible hood and good fit.
Expensive, but worth it in my books. If you don't need the extra reinforcement then get the standard Kongur - I bet it's still a bomber bit of kit.
In reply to davidbeynon: I saw some "heritage" red/ blue Berghaus waterproofs in TKMaxx that looked like they could take a bullet. They'd hear you coming a mile away and probably weighed 5kg
In reply to jadias:
Thus far, the only jacket to survive such a thing...
http://www.blipfoto.com/entry/1356700
> (In reply to davidbeynon)
>
> I bought it mainly because it would stand up to geological fieldwork
>
> I bought it mainly because it would stand up to geological fieldwork
Thus far, the only jacket to survive such a thing...
http://www.blipfoto.com/entry/1356700
In reply to davidbeynon: I've a haglofs thing you might like - but it's proshell so might not last as long as you want. plenty of pockets and flaps, hood is pretty good but not wired, it has a stiffener in it though. managed to tear one of the side pocket stitchings slightly when I hooked it on a door handle once .
In reply to davidbeynon:
Berghaus Trango Extrem XCR - I've used mine for skiing, ski touring, off-piste and general climbing / mountaineering, and it's never let me down. If you look on a well-known auction site (ahem), there's a yellow and grey one the same as mine for sale @ £40ish.
HTH, JW
Berghaus Trango Extrem XCR - I've used mine for skiing, ski touring, off-piste and general climbing / mountaineering, and it's never let me down. If you look on a well-known auction site (ahem), there's a yellow and grey one the same as mine for sale @ £40ish.
HTH, JW
In reply to John Ww:
I searched for 'made to measure goretex' because Slioch clothing appears to have vanished from the web (gone bust?). Until recently they would have made you a nice dependable goretex which would last (mine is 20 years old now),
The search turned up these folks though:
http://www.thistlegarments.co.uk/made-to-measure-royal-navy-gore-tex-jacket...
who sound interesting.
And an offshoot from Slioch called Firemore.
Worth a look?
I searched for 'made to measure goretex' because Slioch clothing appears to have vanished from the web (gone bust?). Until recently they would have made you a nice dependable goretex which would last (mine is 20 years old now),
The search turned up these folks though:
http://www.thistlegarments.co.uk/made-to-measure-royal-navy-gore-tex-jacket...
who sound interesting.
And an offshoot from Slioch called Firemore.
Worth a look?
In reply to davidbeynon:
If you're not too bothered about Army DPM colouring try one of their surplus stores or `that` auction site. I Got a goretex one for £7.50 and is absolutelty brillinat. performs just as well as my Berghaus XCR or indeed my Rab Latok and not much heavier!!
Cheers
If you're not too bothered about Army DPM colouring try one of their surplus stores or `that` auction site. I Got a goretex one for £7.50 and is absolutelty brillinat. performs just as well as my Berghaus XCR or indeed my Rab Latok and not much heavier!!
Cheers
In reply to davidbeynon:
I´d go for Klättermusen, e.g. Brede jacket.
Expensive like hell, but I have never seen anything better.
CB
I´d go for Klättermusen, e.g. Brede jacket.
Expensive like hell, but I have never seen anything better.
CB
In reply to cb294:
Can't argue with you there, my Klättermusen hardshell trousers have been with me for seven years or so of hard abuse and are still waterproof and without any major nicks. There is one through the pocket but that isn't waterproof anyway and a small hole when I caught my trousers with a crampon whilst stumbling and they'll keep being used even though I got a pair of free paramo salopettes. Would buy a new pair if I could afford them
> I´d go for Klättermusen, e.g. Brede jacket.
>
> Expensive like hell, but I have never seen anything better.
>
> Expensive like hell, but I have never seen anything better.
Can't argue with you there, my Klättermusen hardshell trousers have been with me for seven years or so of hard abuse and are still waterproof and without any major nicks. There is one through the pocket but that isn't waterproof anyway and a small hole when I caught my trousers with a crampon whilst stumbling and they'll keep being used even though I got a pair of free paramo salopettes. Would buy a new pair if I could afford them
In reply to Hannes:
I just looked them up, as I hadn't heard of them before. Looks great, but beyond my budget I think.
I just looked them up, as I hadn't heard of them before. Looks great, but beyond my budget I think.
In reply to Siward:
http://www.firemore.com/garments/01_mt.html
>
> And an offshoot from Slioch called Firemore.
>
> Worth a look?
> And an offshoot from Slioch called Firemore.
>
> Worth a look?
http://www.firemore.com/garments/01_mt.html
In reply to davidbeynon:
look for something designed for guides. often bombproof, heavy duty and loaded with pockets.
lots of companies do them.
gotta say, its refreshing to see someone looking for something other than the lightest, thinnest, most hi-tech, stripped down, ultra specific, latest textile hyper jacket. quite sick of that conversation as it never ends.
good luck. agree too that something military could work.
look for something designed for guides. often bombproof, heavy duty and loaded with pockets.
lots of companies do them.
gotta say, its refreshing to see someone looking for something other than the lightest, thinnest, most hi-tech, stripped down, ultra specific, latest textile hyper jacket. quite sick of that conversation as it never ends.
good luck. agree too that something military could work.
In reply to davidbeynon:
http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/product_info.php?cat=137&products_id=61
PHD Alpamayo? Not goretex, double storm flaps with velcro. No idea what the fabric is like however but pockets look good enough.
http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/product_info.php?cat=137&products_id=61
PHD Alpamayo? Not goretex, double storm flaps with velcro. No idea what the fabric is like however but pockets look good enough.
In reply to davidbeynon:
Come over to the dark side. Once you have tried Paramo you will never go back.
Big pockets and masses of them
Durable
Incredibly breathable (no membrane comes close)
You do need to re-proof it from time to time and it will make you look like an old man.
Come over to the dark side. Once you have tried Paramo you will never go back.
Big pockets and masses of them
Durable
Incredibly breathable (no membrane comes close)
You do need to re-proof it from time to time and it will make you look like an old man.
In reply to Exile:
I've got one of those. It's a very nice jacket, but I wouldn't describe it as 'bombproof'. My old three layer Goretex was much tougher.
> (In reply to davidbeynon)
>
> Patagonia Storm Jacket, if you can still pick one up. Epicentre were doing them for £90 a while back, may be worth giving them a ring to see if they've got one or two left.
>
> Patagonia Storm Jacket, if you can still pick one up. Epicentre were doing them for £90 a while back, may be worth giving them a ring to see if they've got one or two left.
I've got one of those. It's a very nice jacket, but I wouldn't describe it as 'bombproof'. My old three layer Goretex was much tougher.
In reply to davidbeynon:
Apart from the sweat that finds its way into the phone (as vapour) and then condenses. That's also a problem when putting electronics in pockets of breathable waterproof jackets; vapour gets through the jacket into the pocket via the lovely breathable fabric. But it's cold in the pocket (being separated from body heat by the jacket fabric), so water condenses either in the pocket, or inside the phone itself (as above).
Really best not to put any electronic devices into any pockets of waterproof jackets, not even items that have are 'waterproof' (i.e. have high IPxx ratings), as water vapour may be able to breach even high IPxx protection.
> It looks as if the issue there is that the pocket itself is waterproof so it filled up and gave the blokes phone a dunking. Mesh would have let the person get damp but probably saved the shiny electronics.
Apart from the sweat that finds its way into the phone (as vapour) and then condenses. That's also a problem when putting electronics in pockets of breathable waterproof jackets; vapour gets through the jacket into the pocket via the lovely breathable fabric. But it's cold in the pocket (being separated from body heat by the jacket fabric), so water condenses either in the pocket, or inside the phone itself (as above).
Really best not to put any electronic devices into any pockets of waterproof jackets, not even items that have are 'waterproof' (i.e. have high IPxx ratings), as water vapour may be able to breach even high IPxx protection.
In reply to captain paranoia:
Oh, and 'waterproof zips' generally aren't... Certainly not for long, anyway...
Oh, and 'waterproof zips' generally aren't... Certainly not for long, anyway...
In reply to davidbeynon:
Watching with interest because your shopping requirements are pretty much the same as mine. Mountain Equipment were looking best last time I browsed.
Watching with interest because your shopping requirements are pretty much the same as mine. Mountain Equipment were looking best last time I browsed.
In reply to davidbeynon:
Montane have a new winter jacket out. The superfly XT.
Not cheap, though.
Review here http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/gear-news/just-in---montane-super-fly-xt/8926....
Montane have a new winter jacket out. The superfly XT.
Not cheap, though.
Review here http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/gear-news/just-in---montane-super-fly-xt/8926....
In reply to davidbeynon: I would avoid ME Kongur, got one 2 winters ago after reading the trail gear test and talking to local instructors, first time on was a winter night nav and I burst a hole in the pocket with a laminated map, a local outdoor ed instructor did the exact same so hardly bombproof.
Worse still I was soaked through after half an hr of drizzle about the 3rd time out.
Might be a quality control issue as lots of people seem to have no probs.
Worse still I was soaked through after half an hr of drizzle about the 3rd time out.
Might be a quality control issue as lots of people seem to have no probs.
In reply to davidbeynon:
After trying on a few options I ended up getting a Kongur MRT.
I hadn't read the preceding comment about pockets failing. Looking at it I can see how a sharp edge from something like a laminated map could damage it but I'm not too worried.
After trying on a few options I ended up getting a Kongur MRT.
I hadn't read the preceding comment about pockets failing. Looking at it I can see how a sharp edge from something like a laminated map could damage it but I'm not too worried.
In reply to davidbeynon:
Good luck with that then. I would have seconded the Marmot Glenmore suggestion - all the features you mentioned and certainly bombproof in my experience.
Some UK guides I've seen working in the Alps seemed to favour a light and cheap shell, favouring soft-shell and wanting something light to carry just in case. I guess use it for a season, trash it, buy another...
Good luck with that then. I would have seconded the Marmot Glenmore suggestion - all the features you mentioned and certainly bombproof in my experience.
Some UK guides I've seen working in the Alps seemed to favour a light and cheap shell, favouring soft-shell and wanting something light to carry just in case. I guess use it for a season, trash it, buy another...
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