UKC

I was out shopping today thinking about my winter climbing (icefall mostly), which I did comfortably last year in borrowed 1980's goretex salopettes and my winter weight fleece and thermal underwear. Frankly I was shocked at the cost of a simple softshell jacket - £175!!! Am I looking at the expensive end of the range there, or do all soft shells cost that much? I appreciate that wearing hardshell isn't sensible with axes and crampon points but will I really get my moneys worth if I buy a softshell? if I will please could someone explain how they are superior to winter weight fleeces topped with my old pertex windproof?

In reply to mutt:

If you wear your fleece and windproof you will be more or less comfortable, and more or less protected from the winter weather.

If you wear a £175 softshell you will be less comfortable, less protected from the weather, but attractive members of the opposite sex may wish to chat you up in the bar afterwards.

In reply to mutt:

shelled fleeces were the starting point for most softshells, there is a definite law of diminishing returns at work here.

In reply to Oceanic:

And unattractive ones definately will!!

In reply to mutt:

It's my understanding that deacent soft shells are ment to be windproof enough and waterproof enough for most weather, and breathable so you don't get damp, and quick drying enough to be okay if in the worst weather and able to keep you comfortable when you do get wet, so you're warm and wet rather than cold and wet.

If this works out in practice or not i've no idea, from not having used any soft shell gear.

Tim

In reply to mutt:

I've found soft shells to be excellent for cold windy rock climbing days (eg fairhead)and maybe for skiing/ski touring when it gets warm. Definately fleece and hard shell for ice climbing

< but attractive members of the opposite sex may wish to chat you up in the bar afterwards>

a worthwhile point - but unfortunately there is no way that I can afford to go to a bar in norway!

In reply to mutt: For ice fall climbing I'd stick with hardshells as you'll likely come across running water, even in -25 deg there will be running water.

I used to use soft shells for everything but now use mainly hard shells for climbing as they offer much better protection, from the wind mainly, and I don't find them sweaty. I still use softshells for walking, ski touring, summer in the alps - but in winter hardshells rule for technical routes.

In reply to mutt:
Yeah, the existence of fleeces and windproofs is the main reason why I haven't parted with the cash for a softshell (or a windproof fleece).

I can see situations where a softshell's better than a hardshell, but not so many where it's massively better than a fleece and a windproof with the option of sticking a hardshell over the top.

In reply to Timmd:
I think you have just defined that trusted and stylish combination of buffalo jacket and winter weight Ron Hills over fleece long johns that held sway for so long.

In reply to mutt:

Hi, I have tried both hard-shell and softsell. Scottish winter I go all out gore-tex. Lots of spindrift.
But ice on a clear crisp day go for a desecent base layer and a medium weight fleece top and a soft-shell. I have a Hagloft jacket and a Cloud Veil pull-over. Both work well. Actually I wear my soft-shell jacket and trousers in the Lakes.
Good layering is key. To be honest, if it ain't broken....
I have a medium weight arc-teryx long sleeve top with a half zip. Cost about £50. Best piece of kit i have.

In reply to mutt:

Depends what you mean by 'soft shell'...

You'll find my spin on origins of, and the four basic types of softshell, and how they behave, in this OM thread:

http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/printthread.asp?UTN=6983&URN=5&S...


Those are not really reasons to choose a soft shell over a hard shell. A soft shell should provide improved comfort over a hard shell when it's not raining, because they allow sweat to escape more easily (depending on the type of soft shell). It's the stretch and improved comfort that you're after.

In reply to Kane:

I think that depends on where and how hard you climb. I ice climb at least once a week for 3-4 months of the year and wear softshell for almost all of it (much less last winter as I was reviewing a goretex for UKC!) and rarely get bothered by dripping water. Normally I find if the ice is wet my gloves get wet and sometimes thighs get dripped on, but that's generally climbing stuff less than vertical and mainly single pitch. When you get into complex big ice falls with overhangs and mushrooms and all that malarky, then it can be pouring down with water even on cold days - and then I totally agree - hardshells are the way to go!

In reply to mutt:

I've worn softshell trousers and jacket for Scottish winter climbing for the last seven years or so and have been warmer, drier and more comfortable for it. Over that period I think I've been caught out maybe three times when I wished I had a hardshell with me and I got a soaking. Not a bad ratio. I'll continue to leave the hardshells at home.

In reply to mutt:

If you glued your fleece to your pertex top... you would essentially have what is now considered a 'soft shell' just without the versatility.