UKC

Cue - carnage thread. Bolts should never be near Cornish granite. Can't say I'm so convinced about Carn Vellan after taking a look at the place recently but still. Some epic routes down there, and plain crazy to have done them on trad gear. Sorry to be the instigator if it descends into the usual arguments but the vid and routes are awesome regardless of the other stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=csUC0ZHSbvg#!

In reply to royal:

Great video.

I'm sure there's one somewhere of Mark trying or doing one of the routes trad, but haven't been able to find it.

In reply to royal:

And your stance is....?

In reply to royal: You're about 8 months too late for the Carn Vellan debate. Conclusions already reached, no new fixed gear on Cornish sea-cliffs, sport climbing at specific inland quarries only (or something along those lines).

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=450612

Haven't heard whether anyone has carried through with the proposed cleaning up of Carn Vellan or not yet.

In reply to royal:
I'm well aware of the debate and have spoke with many of the people who were historically involved. I dont have a 'stance', I was very anti but these days going the other way on Carn Vellan specifically ( Still very much the other way on anywhere else). Apart from not being in the country at the time, I didn't vote either way because of this. I'm not interested in further debate, I just think the routes are epic and the video is better than anything that's come out before and worth a look.

In reply to royal:
Thanks for the video, it sheds a little more light on a place most of us have only heard about.
Great looking routes.

Jb.

In reply to John Mcshea:

I note there are two or more camera angles. If there was only one camera, then this is a compilation of more than one attempts/ascents.

Shame nobody gets to try these epic routes any more

In reply to royal:

I like the way he gets 'quarry' into the very first sentence.

In reply to teddy:

To be fair, I'm not sure anyone ever did much did they? I don't think they've even been chopped yet and people aren't exactly flocking. Anyway, Fun Curve Factory looks much better than anything on the roof - and that's coming from someone who voted against the chopping.

In reply to lowersharpnose:

And the point you're trying to make is?

In reply to teddy:

At least one of them can be done as trad - Rewind (which is awaiting a repeat isn't it?). It will be a little hard to practice on top rope first though given the angle.

In reply to winhill:

And the Boreal Lasers Mrk 1, the shorts and Mark's hair show when this was made.

In reply to winhill:
>

Quite, I was going to make exactly the same point. Surely it was a 'crag' long before it was a quarry?

In reply to Cusco:

That the film is not a record of the second ascent Rowland states, but a compilation. We see Mark fall then cut to Rowland holding a fall from a different angle. There are lots of climbing videos out there which show the climber start at the bottom and climb to the top, this does not do that.

In reply to lowersharpnose:

Lots of other things it doesn't show - drilling cam slots, chipping holds, bolting, lying about it...

In reply to JJL:

Have you watched him doing this JJL ?

In reply to properjob:

Who?

In reply to JJL:

Mark Edwards of course, you are accusing him of all sorts of 'climbing crimes' yet I want to know if you've actually witnessed any of it first hand ?

In reply to properjob:

I would find it more suprising if someone didnt believe it?

In reply to Fraser: Eh? What an odd way to look at it. I'm sure Stoney M was a crag long before it was a quarry, as was Kilnsey, as was cheddar, as was portland, as were the llandudno crags... a very odd perspective... I take it seeing as it's all joined to another crag via the rock beneath it you don't advocate bolting anywhere?

In reply to mike kann: Looking at your profile, you obviously don't think that, so what IS your point?

In reply to Vince McNally:

It's not a question of whether we believe or don't believe, this isn't about faith, it's only ever about what is fact, and what is witnessed.

I have never seen any published photographic or video proof to validate any of the spurious claims. All we ever get is 'hearsay' often from jealous climbers from the lower leagues, joining the 'let's hate the Edwards' bandwagon, citing ethics as the reason, but most likely because they would never ever be able to climb at Mark's level.

It doesn't matter what sport or activity we are involved in, there seems to always be the need for a witch hunt, for victimisation, for a scapegoat on which to blame all ills, for years it's been Mark, but in the meantime many will never been privileged to witness the undeniable extreme talent of this climber. Fortunately I'm one of the lucky ones who has.

Best wishes nevertheless

In reply to properjob:

Well maybe 'There are none so blind, as those that will not see'

In reply to properjob:

He certainly seems to attract controversy...
One of the first things I did when I checked out this thread was to see who the OP was. I thought we were in for another one of him posting as someone else to big himself up or getting his burd to register to do it!

In reply to JJL:

What's the current FACTUAL situation in the Mark Edwards saga? Was anything proven beyond doubt? Did he ever respond? What's the deal with this H10? Has anyone tried to repeat it, is there any reason to doubt him doing it? I'm genuinely interested, as there's loads of BS thrown around and the hard facts are hard to come by unless you're in the centre of it all.

Thanks,

Franco

In reply to Vince McNally:

I climbed with him, and photographed him on numerous occasions Vince, and my eyesight is not clouded by malicious rumour. Best wishes, Glyn

In reply to properjob:

Sorry, where did I accuse Mark Edwards of anything?

In reply to JJL:

If you're going to associate a Mark Edwards video with drilling cam slots ect. on a public forum, at least have the guts to stand by your inferred comments. Do you realise how damaging it is to imply foul-play, to a climber like Mark Edwards, developing new areas with very few people about? If you have evidence that he's lied, then stick to your guns, but don't back track and start discussing semantics like a 'clever dick' with something as serious as this.

In reply to JJL:

Are you away with the fairies today JJL or did you not say this ?:

"Lots of other things it doesn't show - drilling cam slots, chipping holds, bolting, lying about it..."

If that's isn't unfounded accusation (should read libel) then I don't what is?

In reply to properjob: It would be really good if you could explain exactly what you've seen him do and perhaps offer an insight into why he hasn't commented on the accusations.

In reply to properjob:

I did say that.

Could you point me to the bit where I said it was about Mark Edwards (as you are alleging)? Because I can't seem to find it.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Chaps

I replied to LowerSharpnose's comments about films not showing everything.

I implied that a) this was true and b) there are a fair few other things that we don't have records of.

Without film/credible witness of either a top to bottom ascent (by anyone) or chipping (by anyone) we'll never know.

So wind you neck in and have a cup of tea. Oh, and climbing really isn't that serious.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

IIRC, there was a recent thread about Mark Edwards and drilled cam slots. I think there was a UKC News article on it. I have not found it yet.

In reply to properjob:

Have any of these routes been repeated by anyone not named Mark Edwards? If not, why not? Are they still in existence or have they already been chopped? They look great routes... I don't know Mark, but have met him on a couple of occasions with a mutual friend. Seemed a very nice guy.

In reply to properjob:


We've been down this road so many times. These are the facts:

Cam slots have been drilled, holds chipped and bolts placed on West Cornwall seacliffs.

Many of the above actions have occurred on routes first climbed by Mark and Rowland Edwards.

No-one has come forward as far as I'm aware to verify who was responsible. The only conclusion that can be stated is that the perpitrators know who they are, unless they suffer from instant amnesia after the event.

On 2 April of this year the BMC arranged a meeting in Redruth to debate these issues and the agreement that followed can be found here.

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=4211

Rather than continue with personal attacks and innuendo, libelous or not, let's move on as the truth may never be known.

It is entirely possible that sometime in the not too distant future an extremely talented and bold climber will accept the obvious challenges of the Carn Vellan roof and climb them without recourse to bolts, following the examples of Indian Face, Echo Wall, The Walk of Life and the Longhope route to name just a few.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

And another thing (I'll humour you because you're young) - if you were to ask me what I thought, then, yes I do believe those who say that Edwards drilled the slots. Just in the same way I belive that Rich Simpson never climbed A.D.

Doesn't mean I'm right...but for me the likelihood is very much that way.

In reply to JJL:

Believing something is one thing, but writing it on a public forum gives your hunches the appearance of being hard facts. I agree that the evidence points that way, but I think it's very dangerous accusing climbers without solid evidence. To 'wind my neck in' would be hypocritical I feel, as I would not be winding my neck in if people were spreading ill-founded rumours about my ascents.

Thanks Iain Peters, good to know what the exact facts are.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Franco

You were very discourteous having jumped to ill-founded conclusions. I have explained pretty clearly what I was responding to. You are continuing to attribute actions to me that I have not made. I'm quite happy to clarify and I'm quite content to disagree, but you need to learn to ask for the former and conduct the latter without first checking that you have understood correctly and also without reaching for the ad hominems.

Out.

In reply to JJL: you're going to have to explain exactly what you meant with your original comment, as I've re-read it many times and I can't interpret it any other way than you insinuating that the video not only doesn't show a full ascent, but it also doesn't the scandalous acts that Mark has been accused of.

In reply to anyone interested In drawing their own conclusions

Thread about drilled cam slots etc here
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=416516&v=1#x5932388

In reply to thread:

As Iain Peters said above, the bolting/non bolting situation was resolved earlier this year.
The discussion was very thorough and well reasoned arguments were forwarded by leading local climbers from both sides.

As a quick reminder it was decided that:

No new bolts and/or fixed gear should be added to Cornish sea cliffs.
Existing fixed pegs would be left to rot.
The bolts at Carn Vellan would be chopped.
Non specific inland quarries can be bolted - hopefully with a good deal of discretion from the FA.

Despite proven 'misdemeanors' in the past, Red Rose bolt, Carn Vellan etc, it's worth remembering that Mark (and Rowland) Edwards, have made massive contributions to climbing in West Penwith. Most of the very classic lines at Carn Barra were originally climbed by them. Although this is an oft overlooked venue, it's second only to Bosigran really in terms of quality.
There are large numbers of unrepeated E5,6,7s, several E8s, a few E9s and at least two E10s claimed by the pair throughout West Cornwall, not to mention hundreds of routes in the low to mid grades.

It's hard to think of anywhere else in the country where such a wealth of hard routes would go unrepeated; unnoticed even for so long. Notwithstanding the obvious geographical difficulties in getting down to West Penwith, I've a notion that Mark's notoriety has a lot to do with the fact of them being largely overlooked. I could be wrong, but then Cornwall isn't exactly an unpopular place to visit and many of it's crags are in decent condition year round.

Mark's always seemed like a helpful and clearly enthusiastic bloke on here and like most posters presumably, not knowing him, that's all I've got to go on. Anything that anyone's done in the past is (hopefully) just that, in the past. Cornwall seems like a bit of a laughing stock sometimes where hard climbing is concerned and that's a shame - there's plenty to do! Contiual sniping on here from people doesn't really help matters, it's not like he's exactly coming on here and stirring shit up all the time, so it seems a bit unpalatable and behind his back.

What a shame that Cornwall's climbing is infamous for the wrong reasons, let's drop it and move on.

In reply to royal:

Extremely impressive climbing (especially for a couple of decades ago) - and in crap conditions too!

Mick

In reply to Southern Man: well said that man ! the amount of new routes that he and his dad have done, and still are doing,(all though now in spain), is astronomical, and i cant think of many if any who have achieved as much as them. mark has been pushing standards of trad and sport for many years, and very rarely do his hard routes get repeated!
i find it a shame that a few occasions of someone pushing the boundaries in an area like cornwall,(which is all ways gonna be tricky), over shadows the other 99.9% of the routes they have put up down there, which rarely do they get praised for, unlike climbers in other areas of the country.

i would be interested actually to find out just how many routes they have amast between them over the years!

carry on mark, and rowland, as he`s still new routing up to E3ish i believe, for as long as you can!

In reply to royal:

Well it certainly looks like a sport crag...

In reply to JJL: Oh come on pal, you did the archetypal snide internet attack, phrasing your OP in a way that the intent was obvious to anyone familiar with the subject while allowing you to say you never accused anyone of anything. Then you get on your high moral horse when someone calls you on it. At least stand up and say what you mean in the first place.

In reply to Southern Man:

Not just directed at you Southern Man, but no-one has managed to answer my question higher up and you seem more likely to know:


Well, have they?

In reply to jon: As far as I'm aware they've all been chopped apart from Monster Munch F8b that was originally chopped then rebolted so still has a line of bolts on it just to the right possibly of Nuts.

youtube.com/watch?v=-HNp7mh5LeM&

Does this answer your question?

In reply to gg4419: Sorry it may even be F8b+.

In reply to gg4419:

Thanks, well almost answers it... has anyone else ever repeated any of these lines? If not, I wonder why not? This is just out of curiousity - why would some fantastic looking, albeit very controversial, routes be completely ignored by the better sports climbers in the country - especially with the history of Peak climbers going down to Cornwall sometimes with the intention of downgrading Mark's routes. Maybe Mark knows, if he's listening...?

In reply to jon: As far as I'm aware the sport lines have had no repeats. The line of monster munch can be wet in places and from the looks the rock isn't amazing all the way up, there is at least one hold that looks like it has been stuck back on near the start. (That isn't a dig at Mark or anyone as I appreciate holds can be put back on to routes). Maybe that and also how much else Cornwall has to offer are contributing factors to why it has had no repeats?

In reply to gg4419:

Thanks.

In reply to jon:

Because its so far away from the Peak. While Anstey's cove in Devon has seen some attention from Northern climbers over the years, it is relatively accessible being under 2 hours south of Bristol. Up until recently there were few people operating at 8b and above in this country so that would explain why nobody made it down up until when the bolts were chopped. Sports climbing really was out of fashion in the late nineties and early 2000's. Also, few people were really training for these massive very steep Euro style pumpfests as we don't have much of the rock for it apart from perhaps Kilnsey and a few other places. As standards have risen in the last 5 years, there are a few more people up north climbing stamina 8b+'s who might well be interested in trying these routes and who go out to Spain to try similar testpieces. However, that possibility has been removed. I am sure if these routes were bolted again, people would be planning summer trips down to Cornwall to try them as severely overhanging, sustained routes like this are very rare in this country - you normally have to fly to Spain to try them.

By the way, which Peak climbers ever came to Cornwall and repeated any of the harder trad routes down there, I can't think of anybody. I know Andy Pollit did a tour in the late 80's but since then?

In reply to teddy:

There must be loads more sport in the S/SW nowadays than the Peak?

In reply to teddy:

Also, the nature of harder routes, whereever they are is that they don't get tried/ done much because not many people are operating at say 8b+ as this level is so hard. Just because an 8c doesn't get done very often is not of itself an argument for somehow diminishing its worth in my view. For me, its inspiring to think that there are hard routes out there to try irrespective of whether they were last done 15 years ago or whatever. In fact, that would almost increase the attraction because if they have held out that long without a repeat, they must be really hard. Obviously a climbs location plays a role in how frequently it will get repeated but this is to be expected - how cool would it be for Monster Munch, a far flung climb of the highest standard, to get repeated so long after the 1st ascent.

In reply to Bulls Crack:

What do you mean? In the South West there are several sport climbing venues, Ansteys being one of them, Portland, parts of Swanage, Cheesewring and Torbryan Quarry being others

In reply to teddy:

Well I disagree with almost all your points there! And yes it was Andy that I was thinking of, with Chris Hamper(?) I think. That's why I said 'history'.

In reply to jon:

Well we will have to agree to disagree then. Unfortunately, there are not many climbers who would be able to climb these routes as bolted challenges in Cornwall or outside so it seems to be other clibers who would not have any interst in doing them who decide whether the bolts are in or out.

In reply to teddy:

But this is equally true of any hard trad route: imagine the outcry now if bolts were to appear on Indian Face.

Mark himself has proved that it is possible to climb the Carn Vellan roof without bolts, but it is only one of many similarly challenging lines both in West Cornwall and all up the Atlantic Coast that await those with the ability and the balls to climb them. Believe me I've seen them.

I do sympathise with those local sport climbers in the area who have to travel to The Cheesewring and beyond, but the same is true of anyone living in Pembroke.

It is also a fact that the BMC meeting in Redruth was loaded with the big guns from the SW trad scene, Littlejohn, Cannings, O'Sullivan and others, but judging by the various postings on the subject here on UKC and elsewhere over the years, the decisions arrived at at that meeting did reflect a consensus that the Cornish seacliffs, whether altered by man or not, should remain free of fixed drilled gear. It almost went further as a proposal to remove all in situ pegs was narrowly defeated by one vote with many abstentions.

Regarding your question about the lack of repeat ascents of the harder Edwards routes since the 80s, there are three possible reasons: the first is that Mark Edwards is indisputably an extremely talented climber, and that the routes are well 'ard even by modern standards; secondly West Cornwall is perhaps the 'UK holiday rock' destination for many thousands and that the whole atmosphere lends itself to a more lighthearted approach than other areas. Finally, access to many of the harder climbs is dictated not only by the tides but by the sea state. Setting up an abseil or top rope prior to a headpoint ascent can be impossible. The Edwards had the privilege of living over the shop and certainly made good use of their extensive knowledge of the coast.

It was following the visit of Andy Pollitt and other top peak climbers, and the subsequent magazine article questioning some of Mark's grades as well as the obvious desecration of Red Rose that brought this controversy to an unpleasant and highly personal head. Subsequent mysterious actions over the years have only added fuel to the flames. Controversy seems to follow Mark and Rowland around wherever they go. There must be someone out there with a massive chip (pun intended) on their shoulder concerning Edwards' routes who is hellbent on destroying their reputation whatever it takes....???

If only we could all draw a line under this long-running and unsavoury episode, and agree that this incredible coastline of granite, killas or greenstone should remain as pristine as we can make it.

I'll end with a confession: I was in the party that placed the first bolt on Bosigran, years before Biven and Peck took the drill to Beowulf. In those days (late 50s) Porthmoina Island below the main face was a popular destination for its various low grade traverses and also made a superb viewpoint for watching the action above. The easiest descent was down steep grass slopes below Gendarme Ridge. Unfortunately these ended in an unpleasant cornice of mud and boulders which could be by-passed by an abseil or tricky down climb, with no obvious belay. Following a bad accident, my grandfather The Admiral, then custodian of the Count House and therefore, by default, guardian of the crag decided to place a bolt. With help from the Devonport dockyard apprentices and a 'borrowed' phosphor bronze propellor a truly impressive example was forged.

It took three of us a weekend to drill the 1" diameter hole. The admiral and his brother wielded the sledge hammers, whilst my job was to hold the drill bit, very much the short straw of the episode as both the old boys were blind as bats without their specs! My secondary job was to keep the primus working to melt the lead for the fixing, again a somewhat dangerous occupation given the situation. The result was most impressive and remained in an untarnished state for the next 30 years, until removed and photographed by.....Rowland Edwards!

In reply to Iain Peters:

There is definitely some strange goings on in these parts.

I was saying the fact that some hard sport routes not getting done very often is not a reason for them not to exist as a response to an earlier response which said that as nobody had shown an interest maybe it didn't matter if the routes didn't exist - on the contrary I say. This has nothing to do with bolting trad routes. Nobody is interested in trad climbing Monster Munch - I'm sure it will not be a priority in the future any more than it would be anyone to trad climb True north at kilnsey. On the subject of stripping sport routes of their bolts, I'm sure that Zoolook at Malham could be trad climbed with the odd crap wire and half in friend but what would that prove. The Tunnel Wall routes in Glencoe probably could too, creating some E10's that would very infrequently get done. There are many places for dangerous trad climbs but I personally don't think the very steep bit of Carn Vellan is one of them.

In reply to Iain Peters:

Mark Edwards has just contacted me to say that his father did not remove the Bosigran bolt, he just photographed it for an article. If that is correct I apologize.

In reply to teddy:


I haven't read all the thread Teddy, but if you're referring to me, I can assure you that I was simply curious as to whether they'd been repeated and if not, why not. And though I think they look like very good routes of their type, it was not to put forward that suggestion. If you were referring to someone else, I apologise.

In reply to jon:
As far as i know no one has claimed to have repeateated any of these routes except as aid climbs, this raises the question has anyone ever witnessed anybody flashing- redpointing - or otherwise climbing any of these routes without weighting the gear? as this is not the case in the videos .
"is there anybody out there?"

In reply to jon:

Are you just interested in the sport routes or the trad ones too? I am pretty sure some of them have been repeated or at least looked at, or have they? What about that fuss with the drilled cam slots (something at Land's End?), and the drilled pegs on 29 Palms, now done without?


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
I am pretty sure some of them have been repeated or at least looked at, or have they?

They have, or at least some on last year's BMC International Meet. I think a full account can still be found on the BMC website. I was on that meet but only as chief cook and bottlewasher, but the likes of Mark Glaister, Alex Ekins, Shane Ohly, ands Pat Littlejohn actually witnessed or took part in some of the more notable ascents.

Perhaps all this publicity, both positive and negative, will encourage more of the top climbers to pay a visit to the Peninsula, there are certainly enough quality routes at E7 and above, quite apart from Carn Vellan, to keep them out of the fleshpots of St Ives for a day or two!

In reply to lowersharpnose:

The only climbing video in 1992/1993 when this film was made was Stone Monkey and the god-awful Masters of Stone series from the States wasn't it? The film is dated from that time as it refers to the Carn Vellan bolt-chopping which was in 1992 or 1993 (I know because Mike Raine made great lengths to speak to me in my first term at Uni about some comments I'd made in a public forum about my thoughts of the bolt chopping and bolt choppers - hi Mike, hope all's well by the way).

In 1992/1993, there was no Alastair Lee, Hot Aches, Posing Productions, internet, You Tube, Vimeo, UKC forums and no obsesssion with having video of ascents from bottom to top as the only evidence that climbers will accept as proof of an ascent.

You seem to be insinuating that Mark hasn't climbed any of his routes simply because there's no video evidence bottom to top. If so, that's a somewhat lame for the reasons given above. You presumably also believe the old Sheffield/Peak chesnuts that John Dunne never led Parthinan Shot or Totally Free etc etc etc for the same reasons and because no one that big could possibly ever climb that hard!

If you think Mark's routes are a load of bull and, as Rich Mayfield once very publicly said on this site, are seriously over-graded, get down to Cornwall, get on the routes and prove your point - with video evidence of course.

In reply to JJL:

I may be wrong, but I'm not aware Mark lied about placing bolts on those Carn Vellan routes.

And as they started out life as bolted routes, there was no drilling of cam slots.

You seem to be mixing up the recent First and Last Wall debate with the Carn Vellan routes.

In reply to Cusco:

How does this square with the comment from Mr Edwards?

'... there is a video taken by Penzance based film company Three S films (John & Robin) on the day of the first ascent. The shot is wide angle of the whole cliff so you see the climb from bottom to top in one take.'

In reply to Vince McNally:

Some of it may well be true Vince. The circumstantial evidence from Nic Sellars and Shane Ohly about First and Last Wall appears strong to the majority.

But the only people who really know the truth about any affected routes are Mark and Rowland themselves.

And, get ready to be surprised, I don't believe all of it is true Vince.

For example, I seem to recall that someone on this site last year posted their anger at Rowland Edwards for having claimed the first free ascent of Resurrection on the Cromlech despite the fact that they'd been climbing on Dinas Mot (yes - that does say Dinas Mot!) that day and they clearly saw Rowland using some aid on Resurrection. Someone later pointed out in the same thread that Rowland's entry for Resurrection in the North Wales new climbs book clearly referred to the aid point/s (and Paul Williams' guide refers to four aid points). Sadly, I couldn't see that the original poster ever came back to apologise for the erroneous post.

For me that kind of neatly summed up the fallacy of the 'it's true/it's not true' debate about the Edwards and their climbs.

The majority take the staunchly principled "They've always chipped, they've always drilled, they've always bolted, they've always lied, we don't like them (although we haven't met them), they're crap climbers who always over-grade (although we've never done their routes, are too scared to and Cornwall's too far away) and their hundreds/thousands of trad routes must all have suffered the same treatment etc etc" stance.

I can't take that stance as I've actually met them, liked them, climbed with them and they taught me multi-pitch trad 20 years ago (I finally did Anvil Chrous after all these years yesterday!). That doesn't mean I condone any chipping, drilling, bolting etc that they may have done on various routes.

There have been other great anti-Edwards nuggets on UKC in the past - like Rich Mayfield's classic ANOTHER EDWARDS OVERGRADED ROUTE! thread a few years back.

Iain Peters' threads, whilst he clearly doesn't support any chipping, bolting etc, are more balanced and worth reading.

A few years ago, Mark posted a list of his big grade trad routes in Cornwall. They're there for you, Rich Mayfield and other visiting stars to try and then confirm or ridicule the quality, the grades and the extent of any hold manufacturing etc. Just make sure you're now filmed on your top-roping and headpoint ascents bottom to top otherwise lowersharpnose won't believe you!

In reply to Cusco: nice. to the point. i look forward to some of this countrys best getting there arse`s down to kernow next year, if the current wideboys account of superjam is anything to go by, then maybe some more real and interesting accounts of well ard cornish routes may appear!!

In reply to Cusco:

Steady on.

The video swaps between shots from two different viewpoints. Now, with one cameraman, Mark must have climbed and been filmed twice with the two being edited together.

A single bottom to top film from one viewpoint would be simpler and clearer.

Why film two or more ascents and edit them together?

In reply to Cusco:
But not to you? That's an ambiguous way of saying "I don't believe it", if that's what you mean.
You're forgetting the Jealous Guy (or Gal - perhaps it's a jilted ex) who follows them around vandalising their routes in between the first and second ascents.
Are you sure that's an accurate summary? I just had a search and couldn't find the thread, but that's not how I remember it.

So you think they have done these things, just not as often as claimed?
I liked the one where someone pretended to be his girlfriend and posted asking for information on some new routes at some crag (in Cornwall was it?) and Edwards unknowingly replied.

Unlike you, I don't know them etc. I'll just forever be annoyed by what they did to Red Rose. I remember climbing around there as a kid and being so impressed by that lump of rock, wondering if and when it would be climbed, if I'd ever be good enough. Enough bolts and a new attitude to brushing and I could have done it there and then.

In reply to edwardwoodward:
so has anyone, anywhere at any time witnessed any of these claimed routes being done by anybody without weighting the gear?? "simples"
ps the girlfriend and the boyfriend were one and the same person posting and then answering their own posting!!!!! where's "Daisy" she must have seen something over the years?

In reply to edwardwoodward:

Here you go...

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=319853&v=1

In reply to egg:

As per the first post I was hoping that people could appreciate the Penwith routes and not descend into the usual insults. Penwith doesn't need it anymore and has moved on (by vote!) from the past. The Edwards are responsible for many of the best and hardest routes in the area and I don’t see any of the keyboard warrior's on here doing even the mid grade ones let alone the hard stuff even 20yrs later. Put your money where your mouth is if you can't resist opening it. Insinuating that they didn't even climb their routes is plain stupid. It's blatently obvious to even those who are most critical of past events and refuse to move on that they are extremely good climbers.

In reply to royal:

Now there's a brave statement Royal.

In reply to royal:
No doubt I've replied to someone whos a climbing Ninja who has climbed half of the routes, but it's my thread and I did ask nicely in the first post

In reply to royal:


Absolutely.

Re Rowland, from a mate who climbed with both: "He's the best older climber I've ever seen."

Re Mark, how can anyone possibly doubt his ability, watching that clip?

A while back, I asked another mate, who really is clued up about things, just how good Mark was. My mate laughed and said, "Mark's the real deal." Take it from me, this is like the gold standard!

Mick

In reply to edwardwoodward:

i watched him on this route, and my brother was asked by mark to take some pics of him on it. i have seen the pics on many occasions, and there are several with close ups of his fingers on the holds, they were not altered.

i remember seeing the pics of the holds that were taken after andy pollit visited, they were vastly different!

i believe mr pollit told everyone it would have gone at some nominal grade even if the holds hadn`t been altered post marks ascent. My brother was climbing at around the e4/5 standard at the time, and could not even hold himself in on the route, so make of that what you will!

that was the first time i remember reading the kind of shit that has often been thrown at the edwards for no other reason than people trying to big themselves up.

it was also a shame for me, coz pollit was one of my climbing idles when i was younger, and he lost a lot of respect from me after that!

now, who enjoyed watching the vid, i though it was well made and interesting to watch, and well climbed !

In reply to chrisdavies:

i believe mr pollit told everyone it would have gone at some nominal grade even if the holds hadn`t been altered post marks ascent.

Wasn't it Paul Pritchard, who made the comment "Bog standard E6" if the route (Red Rose) hadn't been chipped?

In reply to MJ: yeah ya might be right, was a long time ago!

In reply to MJ: now, wot did mr pollit do to upset me then? lol.

In reply to Dave Todd:
Ta. That's just weird.

In reply to royal:Sorry every one to be boring BUT , well you all know the qyuestion " has anyone witnessed ............................................wthout weighting the gear???????
answers in writing please

In reply to lowersharpnose:

Really? Most climbing videos are edited together from different view points - it makes them more interesting to watch. This film was done by Alun Hughes wasn't it? Watch Buoux 8c, all the climbs in that are edited together, no one suggests that Jerry hasn't done La Rose. The film was made years ago, long before people started clamouring for single take video evidence. I've been filmed by Slackjaw for Hard XS doing the first ascent of an 8b+ at Raven Tor - unfortunately it was cut from the final film - but despite shooting me doing it in one push the final edit was made up from several different viewpoints after I repeated bits for the camera.

In reply to RupertD:

The voice of sanity. Thank you.

Mick

In reply to egg " has anyone witnessed ............................................wthout weighting the gear???????

guess the answer is no?

In reply to egg:

Or, more accurately, the answer is that amongst those on UKC reading this thread, the answer is "no".

In reply to GrahamD:

ha ha, thats it then, obviously all his routes are a lie!! and so it seems are hundreds of extreme routes that have been put up all over the world, i mean did anyone see half the big wall routes on el cap being first ascended, or wot about some of birkets, mcleod`s, pearsons, emmets, dunnes, dawes`s, etc.. etc... i mean, i have only seen the pics of indian face with johnny on it, was it all a conspiracy? in fact have i actually done some of my routes, i dont think i was witnessed on some of them, and deffo wasn`t video`d! is alan hughes real?

egg, get a life! )

In reply to chrisdavies:
Now you mention it I've often wondered whether Franco Cookson really exists, or Danby for that matter, has anyone been?

In reply to John Mcshea:
So Franco, you suggest is a climbing "Toof Fairy"?

In reply to chrisdavies;
How rude. In answer to your questions yes most big wall first ascents on el cap were and are witnessed by lots of people, when you are on a wall a least your friends usually go to the meadow to check out how your doing plus it's possisibly the most public crag in the world which on a normal day has at least 20 people some with telescopes there just to watch the action,
As for the cast of characters you mention firstly other impartial people did witness many of their top grade ascents if not all of them plus these climbers do not have a history of dubious practises and claims, therefore they have a credibility to their claimed ascents.If we are to have guidebooks with historical sections they should not be fiction. Along with several other local activists i am currently assisting route checking for the next guide to penwith area and the discrepancies being discovered in grades and nature of routes claimed does set off a red warning light that should at the very least be looked into, I would like to point as an example that the person who chipped and drilled ""fist and last wall" hasn't owed up to the appalling vandalism and the chief suspect has denied catagorically that he did it despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, but then perhaps we should just look a pictures of the crags and think up lines we wished we could climb free and write them up .
Alun Hughes is real and a very good friend of mine also i do have a life and it's very enjoyable, thank you for your concern,
I suspect it might be you that needs to get out a bit more so why not come down to cornwall and we will point you at some of the routes and then you will be in a position to comment with some degree of experience, we will be happy witness any ascents you do so you can rest assured that you have done them
egg

In reply to egg:


Could not agree more. People seem to get very upset when ascents are called into question and jump to defend those being accused. You only have to look at the Simpson debacle to see this. Just because they're a 'nice guy' or 'very talented' doesn't mean they can't lie / exaggerate / chip holds or anything else they're accused of. While I don't think threads like this should descend into just mud slinging and general abuse, and the usual "my mate said he chipped loads of holds" comments are not helpful in the slightest, I do think that people closely involved with events should be able to freely talk about their suspicions and ask basic questions. We don't have any formal investigations or commitees to deal with situations like this (thankfully), so how else are we able to confirm or deny that what goes in the guidebooks is accurate? Or should it just be ignored?

Would it be better if people caught cheating / doping in other sports were able to get away with it just because they're a decent guy?

In reply to iceox:
Not really, I had more in mind a sort of really extravagant troll that has snowballed somewhat. I have a vision of a Rab C Nesbit type character, drinking stella and eating pasties in front of his laptop, possibly even funded by ukc themselves, I've not decided on that one yet.

In reply to egg: yes i know aluns real, he climb`s at the same wall as me, i started climbing in cornwall as a kid until my early teens before moving to wales, i go back down as often as i can and climb when possible, so don`t need the invite thanks! i get out loads, and try not to diss anyone`s first ascents! as to you saying all of the climbers i mentioned had witnesses on there ascents, mmmm, not sure on that one, but wont batter them for it weather they did or not.

mark is a very talented climber, and i find it strange that over the years, he has been bombarded with assumptions of negativity,yes i know he has pushed the bolting boundaries in penwith, but if your the only climber operating at the standard he was / is, then it was kind of inevitable.

very rarely have either of them been portrayed in a good light, and i personally believe there is a huge amount of jealousy from many climbers who cant or wont climb the stuff he/they have done, or because not many potential first asscentionists got there quick enough!
yes there will all ways be some grade discrepancies of routes, dependent on your style / ability .
and as for the edwards been the only guys to have dubious practises, well, i`ve just seen the vid of mr birkett dry tooling on the bowderstone!! would`not get away with that on the plantation boulders, but then hey, that`s mr birkett! sure he`s a nice guy too.

there are many good and `nice` climbers out there who have there fair share of dubious tactics! but because they don`t have a band of haters behind them, it goes unnoticed, or unrecorded.

if mark said he`s climbed these routes and they have been video`d then why should we have any reason not to believe him. get some of our top lot down there and see if they can climb them and confirm the grades/quality etc...

and lastly, i`m not having a personal attack at you mr egg,, but i do get fed up of the same style of diss belief whenever there names are mentioned, and it is often by people who don`t know them, have not seen them climb, and are happy to jump on the proverbial bandwagon!!

In reply to chrisdavies: to be fair, they are/years ahead of their time, climbing entrepeneurs, amazing how folk slag them now..

good climbers? to me no, cos they didnt chase the dream in scotland in winter.. any different to any other fud professional climber now? yes, they have more class.. MUCH MORE

In reply to chrisdavies: Mark and Rowland Edwards may well be talented climbers, though in my humble opinion, i have seen and climbed with a lot better ones and yes i have also seen them climb on several occaisions. There is no group of jealous haters following them around merely a large number of people who have witnessed dubious tactics being used and false claims being made which is why the questions are being asked.
No one is follwing them around chipping routes after the "first ascent" to discredit them, this is just one example of a false claim that has been made, I know who chipped "first and last wall" and "red rose" he has publically denied this despite overwhelming evidence from more than one source! there are many other similar incidents reliably witnessed far too many deal with in this discourse, it is a complete falacy this claim about a group of people being out to discredit them unfortunately they do a good enough job of it themselves.
In conclusion this isn't a "style of diss" by people who do not know them or have not seen them climb, it is the considered opinion of a large number of impartial observers (no one that i know or have talked to has a personal axe to grind) we would just like the truth to be out so that we can have a relevant history and an reasonably accurate record of the achievements of the participants in the sport.
One reason that people havn't climbed some of these routes is that some of them may not be possible to climb free unless some more holds are created and as for the discrepancies being due to style or ability we are talking of differences both ways from severe-E1 HVS-E26a E6-E3 plus descriptions that don't match the actual rock and routes claimed that add less than 6ft of climbing to very good existing routes this makes it very difficult to produce an accurate creditable guidebook.
there is no band wagon just the same old song
egg

In reply to chrisdavies:


That's going to be rather difficult at Carn Vellan given that the bolts that Mark made the ascents on aren't there any more. I dont think anyone will ever climb these routes on trad and am somewhat surprised that Edwards did so on Rewind. Did he strengthen or weaken the bolts argument by so doing?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

History has proved such statements wrong on many occasions. You must have extraordinary prophetic insight.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

That is an extremely short sighted view. The crag is well known and hardly off the beaten track. And its past controversy makes it an obvious target for some current or future star.

In reply to jonny2vests:

Define trad. It'd be interesting to take the trad definition to its logical conclusion, wouldn't it. Just supposing one of the routes was soloed. Would this be trad? If someone soloed a big Malham 9a, would that be trad?

In reply to chrisdavies:


I think you've kinda misinterpreted the intent of that video clip?

In reply to royal:
I'm more amazed at the twin chalk bag technique... very futuristic!!!

Video of a trad master making mockery of bolts at - 8b
http://xianblog.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/obituary-walter-bonatti

In reply to egg: i have just uploaded a copy of a letter written by a mr paul c craggs, who witnessed mark climbing the red rose on the first ascent, and abbed the route with the intentions of having a go himself, finding it clean and unchipped! untill he abed it 10 days later, finding it mutilated. he sent the letter to climber and hillwalker, who never printed it, which did nothing to help the ensuing arguments , and a copy to mark.it was mark who sent me a copy of this said letter, after reading the comments on this thread.i have put it under historical photo`s. if anyone knows paul c craggs, or if he`s on ukc, then that may put this particular saga to bed, if not, then i`m sure it will continue, hay ho.

In reply to chrisdavies:
Would this be the same Paul Craggs that had his tendons cut in his arm during a very unfortunate collapse of a car jack? (I'm not taking the piss).
Jb.

In reply to Iain Peters:


Not really. Just my best guess. What's yours?

In reply to jonny2vests:


And the boldness, difficulty, tendency to dampness and difficulty in working the route will probably cause them to walk away. Not aware of it having any attention since it was debolted more than a decade ago.

In reply to jon:


Only if they wobbled a laughable RP into place halfway up.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I think the Carn Vellan routes had had some attention by some of those who lobbied to keep the bolts in place. I don't know to what degree of success, but needless to say there are/were some strong climbers amongst those who wanted them to stay.

You'll probably be right though for the foreseeable future, I reckon it stays pretty greasy down there, although access is not difficult. I think Rewind is a lot shorter too than some of the other (de?)bolted routes at Carn Vellan, starting as it does from the ramp of My Mule Don't Like You Laffin, I believe. Not that that means it's necessarily any easier, but I guess route length matters a lot at this level.

Fun Curve Factory looks fantastic and much better than the roof routes anyway - not that I could get up any of them

In reply to John Mcshea:

oops, thats abastard, poor bloke! it maybe the same fella, do you know him?

In reply to Southern Man:

The routes look very difficult to work, given that there is no gear to hold a rope in place under the overhang and that it will be prohibitively damp much of the time. I think Edwards conceded that it may have been impossible for him without the familiarity gained from bolted ascents. Not to mention living down the road.

Who else is going to headpoint these routes? The one person I can think of with the ability lives at the other end of the UK. It's probably easier to work Echo Wall.

I applaud the suggestion that these routes might be trad leads for the Stronger Climbers of The Future, but you can no more prove that they will be than I can that they won't. All we do know is that a high-standard sport venue will lie unused until then. Worth it? Not sure.

In reply to chrisdavies:

This is a pretty important letter. Thank you for putting it on.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

It´s now there Mick, Cheers.

In reply to M. Edwards:

Yes, I've just seen this. Pretty conclusive.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward: Being as it's panto season...

Oh no it isn't.

But being serious again it's a strong piece of evidence that would be strengthened if the author could be traced. However I think that the truth of all this will never be fully and properly established to those of us (i.e nearly everyone) who weren't actually there.

What would be useful (or maybe I should say interesting), would be other top climbers repeating Mark's routes thereby establishing how hard Mark was climbing in those days. Because he was the only climber operating at that level in that area, unless Mark also climbed extensively in the rest of the UK, his grading would be very likely to be out of kilter. But by how much (if any) can only be established by repeats and consensus.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Well, if he's climbing V12 over 20 years later...

Mick

In reply to Michael Hood:

I have climbed new routes in other areas none as I know of have been downgraded yet e.g. Black Death (E7 6b) at Hare Crag in the Lakes, second ascent confirming the grade.. just to name one route. Also I have repeated several E7´s in N.Wales years ago too. Its also funny that some of my routes that were downgraded have recently been upgraded back to my original grades in Cornwall too. But at the end of the day grades are just grades, its how good the route is that really matters in my view. I can enjoy a classic VS more than a scrappy E8 anyday.

In reply to chrisdavies:Mr Pc craggs has in the past had as liberal an approach to the truth as Mark Edwards has, there are many tales concerning him and it is a bit coincidental the source of this letter, if Mr Craggs discovered the chipping ten days after he first abbed down Red rose, finding no chipping when he first abbed down, this being the day after the "first ascent" which apparently he witnessed , why then was nothing said by Mark Edwards at the time who would have surely been outraged to have his finest route vandalised( the hardest in the country at the time)he's not usually reticent to comment, untill Hamper Pollit and co dicovered the chipping nearly a whole year later even without mr craggs informing him Mark Edwards living on top of sennen would have to have be wearing a blindfold not to see it. when confronted by andy pollit and co, Mark Edwards is reputed to ave exclaimed with the surprise of the unaware "dad thev'e done it again"??
here is the timeline;-
June 1988 first ascent of red rose claimed
next day pc craggs abs down - no chipping
10 days later pc craggs abs down discovers "shocking vandalism" reports it or not (why) to mark edwards who dosn't see itdespite many visits to the crag, who then does and says nothing ????............
one year later
mid summer 1989 Andy Pollit, Chris Hamper and Glenn Robbins(no previous scandals or suspicions about claims etc) attempt Red rose and report the chipping to Mark Edwards - response - "dad thev'e done it again!"
Hamper writes article in craggs and states ;-

"Someone had done something obscene, a horrible act of vandalism, totally pointless. A line of holds had been chipped up one of the best looking lines i have ever seen. No not chipped, drilled with an electric drill(sic), then cleaned with a chisel . Some were blatant holes , others made by chipping around crystals to make them stand out like blunt horns ; the damage is extensive and irrepairable"

Fast forward to 2011 exactly the same done to "first and last wall" can there really be any dispute as to who did that?

When Hamper and co told Mark Edwards He stated that he "was unaware it had been chipped but he was not surprised. He said that many of his routes had been chipped by local climbers to discredit him".

Hard to believe he didn't know or hear about this damage to his finest achievement despite it being on his local crag, one that he must have visited at least 50 times in the year following the chipping or that that helpful chappie mr PC Craggs didnt tell him of the outrage? and his reported initial outburst on being confronted?

later Mark Edwards took Hamper and co to Folly cove or porth loe cove maybe it's not clear which,, where they climbed an impressive roof (assumed to be scandals)
hamper stated "Unfortunately mark had got a bit over enthusiastic with his electric(sic) drill; the crucial hold over the lip is a line of drilled holes about an inch deep. Mark explained that he had tried to place a bolt in this position but had encountered loose rock this he removed with the drill(loose?) which uncovered the hold .Mark has now removed the hangaers and the route is no more ?

In conclusion
there is no date on Paul crags letter yet it must date from the early 90's as he refers to Mikr Raineregarding bolt chopping. Mike did not move to cornwall untill several years after the Red rose issueand was never mentioned in that episode is craggs refering to the carn vellan chopping if so this was in 1993 a full 5 years after Red rose
This suggests that mr craggs actually wrote his letter several YEARS AFTER the red rose event and his claimed witnessing of non chipping followed by chipping ten days later.

answers on a post card please

egg

ps these are just two routes of many with similar issues












here is the time line.

In reply to egg:

Firstly, I don´t know why I am giving the time to answer you Mr. Egg, you are probably gaining some kind of ego boost from all this misinformation you vomit to the UKC.

I will just say one thing, Get a life Egg, and stop continually dragging Cornwall down, it deserves more.

In reply to M. Edwards: Am I right in thinking that a number of your routes in Spain have been subsequently drilled/ chipped by the same person responsible for the damage in Cornwall?

In reply to Kendal47:

Apart from drilling bolts in Spain(for 20yrs and now in their many thousands and on several thousand new routes) where are the ¨chipped¨ holds?

In reply to M. Edwards:


It sounds like this guy is assisting in writing the latest guide to the area and doing some fact checking along the way. So instead of 'dragging Cornwall down' he is in fact hoping to do the opposite. It might be more useful to help him by clearing up some of the discrepancies instead of just insulting him. You could start by commenting on the timeline relating to this letter.

It might not be important to you any more, but you owe it to future generations to ensure that the historical record is accurate. If you care as much about Cornish climbing as you say then you could at least take the time to set the record straight.

p.s. I have no bias or strong feeling one way or the other, having spent very little time climbing in Cornwall, but the stories I've heard have always struck me as a little odd. And controversy does seem to follow you around. Unfortunate coincidence? I have no idea. But I would like to know.

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

Now just uploaded onto youtube...the first ascent of Nuts are not the only Fruit. Just to show you I did indeed climb the whole thing and not in the style as Egg has continually been spouting. I find his remarks offencive too. Hence why I do not have any time for him at all. My advice to the CC...choose someone else for me to ¨talk¨ with about my routes, and you will gain a better guide.

In reply to M. Edwards: This one for example: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=23256, see the added photos for additional close ups. It looks quite similar to the handiwork here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=160172.

In reply to M. Edwards:

Mark, I would really like your name to be cleared. It would be great to show all the doubters out there, that you have indeed climbed these routes and not modified the holds in anyway. I think you probably have the evidence to prove it as well. However, It would be so much easier to resolve all this if you would just answer people's questions!

Did you know about modified holds at the time? And if you did, why didn't you report them until years later?

In reply to Kendal47:

¨Modified holds¨ I think mot. Firstly one of the routes is in Spain, and there is a lot of sika (glue) use here on routes that have poor rock, and in some circumstances even to add extra holds (this I do not agree with at all). I have seen a lot of glue use on British rock too (The Ormes and the Peak District limestone). I am sure it happens elsewhere too. The fact of life is that sometimes rock just snaps away under body weight, and if you have invested your hard earned cash on equipping the route, and suddenly your route starts to disappear, then restoration. The route in Cornwall is the second route I have done that to there, for the above reasons, as the hold started to part company with the rock on my ¨third¨ ascent. However,the first time I used glue on the rock was to restore Red Rose to its former self, and that happened over 10yrs ago now, and nobody has said a word or noticed it seems. I also reclimbed the route too, just to check it felt the same, and its just about there.

In reply to M. Edwards: So could cenotaph corner be restored to its former unpolished state and the start to gates of eden be re-built?

In reply to Curiously Austrian IP:

I would like my name to be cleared too, but certain individuals are hell bent on drumming me down....its become a sort of sub-sport ¨Edwards Bashing¨, and from my perspective I find the sport, and way of life I have devoted my whole life to, very sick. There are so called climbers out there that don´t do anything anywhere near what I or my father have done in first ascents, and we are talking thousands of new routes in the UK, Spain, Jordan and first on-sights in USA, that I just feel saddened by what type of people are attracted tp our sport. I think many will agree with me, as its happened to them too, but at a less harsh and continuous degree.

In reply to shaggypops:

When my father first climbed The Corner there was a forest at its base, you had to fight through bushes to get to the route....So it really is a question of what you really mean by restore and re-build Eden?

In reply to M. Edwards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?hl=en-GB&v=a4PKT5Z4gvI


Here is the first ascent of Nuts are not the only Fruit (especially for Egg whom has continually posted above and in the past that he does not believe I climbed my routes, and in a distasteful and hurtful way I may add) So, as this is a hard sport routes (8b+) shall we take it that lesser grades I have been able to climb? Or must I re-climb many thousands of routes just so Egg can gain video evidence???

In reply to M. Edwards: No idea about all that but you've got some tasty shorts going on in that vid. Do you still wear them?

In reply to all:

Just to point out the Paul C Craggs referred to in this thread is not me (and no one related to me as far as I am aware).


Chris

In reply to JH74:

Er....no

In reply to M. Edwards:

Shame. That sh*t never goes out of fashion (just like when French people talk about Phil Collins). I saw the vid earlier but only left a comment just now. When I rechecked the vid I realised I actually had a pair of frikkin shorts just like them!

I was 13 at the time though so I have an excuse.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Please tell me he's a copper!

In reply to JH74:

When this kit went out of fashion we had a ceremonial bonfire..included some mighty colourful lycra too!

In reply to royal:
Great vid. I can't think of much that compares to that route in the UK, it's a monster?

In reply to M. Edwards:

Hi Mark, while you're in the UKC area I've got a couple of questions in my mind about Carn Vellan and Rewind, but this thread seems to have taken a different turn so I'm about to start a new one...

In reply to royal:

Thanks ¨royal¨, I agree a great route, on an awesome crag. It´s just a shame some young wads can´t get on it and enjoy it too. But there you go!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I´ll look out for it Jamie....fire away!

In reply to M. Edwards:

Um... what?! Dude, no! Recalibrate your idea of what is acceptable!

In reply to Chris Craggs:
I remember bumping into you years ago in Sardinia, and regaled to you the various stories that I had heard in your name, you looked a little nonplussed and your wife amused.......
I think the red hot poker story was the other Craggs. Just to jog your memory further as you turned up at the crag my wife in a random confused moment was belaying my on the end of a short sling (!)- I hadn't noticed, this also had the effect of making me a little self conscious, and when talking to you and your friends later I was unable to tie my bowline in front of you, a bit like being bladder shy!

Jb.

In reply to Tdubs:

Like it or not, but there are dozens of climbs around the UK with glue to hold once loose holds, someone was even given the nickname ¨stick-man¨ in the Peak District. I remember trying a project on the Ormes and there was a huge amount of araldite around the crux hold. So, don´t point the finger at just me because you think I am a soft target. I have even come across painted resin holds on almost whole routes on sandstone...that was to stop erosion of the rock too. Same ethic in my view.

In reply to M. Edwards:


I did, and then it disappeared... Strange goings on.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Contact me via face-book or email if you want?

In reply to M. Edwards:
Saying that other people have done it doesn't make it OK! Don't suggest it's a personal vendetta - I don't know you. But I'm saying that's not OK. That's all there is to it. If you find any of those other chaps what have done it, feel free to tell them that I think it's not OK from me, will you?

In reply to M. Edwards:
You sound awfully like mr Davies who also thinks i should get a life,
I get no ego boost from any of this, I just find the whole issue very sad.I believe from the evidence available that you are guilty of the vandalism that you have blamed on others andhave claimed to have climbed route free that you have not , it is this behavior that drags cornwall down and not people asking simple questions that anyone who is innocent of these acts as you claim you are would be keen to answer as you would have everything to gain by clearing the doubts that surround your activities and statements. perhaps you would be good enough to read my earlier post and address the questions raised and explain why and which parts of my post are misinformation instead of insulting me and attempting to belittle me
Thr evidence points strongly to your guilt ion this matter please prove me wrong i honestly would like nothing more but untill you do i think you are guilty of what i claim and i think you should be ashamed of yourself who ultimately is the person you actually cheat. as i said it's actually sad
egg

In reply to Tdubs:

I think you might be surprised how much gluing and re-enforcing of holds goes on on UK limestone, its usually done pretty discretely and sympathetically to ensure a climb does not deteriorate from it's original state, rather than to create holds. Abroad all manner of chipping, hold creation and drilling goes on.

In reply to egg:

You just can´t admit you were wrong to say that I did not climb Nuts are not the only Fruit can you Egg... you just can´t do this simple little thing, I find you distasteful and small minded idiot with no guts to admit they were wrong. Goodbye, adios!

In reply to Tdubs:

think you need ask a vast majority of limestone new routers the same thing, best not do it at parasellas cave though, coz hardly any of the routes would exist, lol. good luck on that one!

In reply to M. Edwards:

Come on Mark - answer the questions please instead of deflecting them.

In reply to M. Edwards:

Have FB'd you.

In reply to egg: you are very concerned about 'evidence' when you proffer none yourself to back up what you are saying;

what's the 'evidence' available to show that it was definitley mark edwards who did what you say he did?

what's the 'evidence' to show he didnt climb the routes he said he did?

he has provided video evidence of him climbing an 8b+ from top to bottom from an era when no-one videoed climbs.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

>Not aware of it having any attention since it was debolted more than a decade ago.

At least one of the routes was rebolted prior to the last round of debates, and I believe still is bolted. It's still had zero attention at least in the public eye.

jcm

In reply to royal:

Perfect - a mysterious eye-witness surfaces 20 years on. You, er, couldn't make it up.

Anyone know this Paul Craggs then?!

Incidentally, did Pollitt and Hamper find the bolts chopped? My memory was that they arrived and set about trying to repeat it, only to find the chipping. I don't suppose they'd have tried to repeat it if the bolts weren't there. And indeed if they'd found the thing both defaced and chopped it would be surprising if their assumption were (as it was, from what I recall of the article) that the chipping had been done by the first ascensionist - until he set them straight, of course.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I'll just say that another eye witness contacted me directly and wrote a lengthy account, which I believed. It seemed a great testament to mark and I'd challenge anyone to read said statement and not think that Mark was a victim in all of this. Unfortunately the person who contacted me (and he claims there are other's who could vouch for Mark too) ignored my suggestion that he should make his comments public.

This whole thing is incredibly weird. There appear to be a large number of people who are witnesses of mark's routes, but none of them are willing to stand up for Mark publicly. Even more suspiciously, Mark himself won't stand up for himself in public, which can only lead me to the conclusion that the said individuals would not testify in public, because their statements would not hold water under thorough cross-examination from those with a greater knowledge on the subject than I.

In reply to M. Edwards:
Yet again you resort to insults to aviod the issues raised in this thread regarding your actions and claims.
You accuse me of misinformation but provide no answers to legitimate questions raised, you accuse others of vandalism when all the evidence points to you being the culprit.You accuse me of not having the guts to admit when i am wrong but you have not added anything to show that i am . You provide an undated letter to support your case re;- Red Rose by someone who apparently witnessed your first ascent , abbed down it the next day found no damage, abbed down it ten days later found it horribly vandalised, didn't inform you of it and then wrote a letter supposedly sent to a climbing magazine 4 years later?
re;- "first and last wall" you make the "first ascent " shortly after you make second ascent photos of that ascent by Egbert Dozekal show the extent of the chipping done but you don't notice it , no one else except you and your friends even knows this route exists but when asked about it you yet again say someone that else chipped it after your ascents? despite the damage being clear in the photo provided of the Dozekal ascent. You announce this route as Cornwalls last great problem in a magazine article which is the first time anyone else knows of it , Nic Sellers repeats the route does notice drilled cam slots and manufactured holds you deny doing it , sorry but it is you that has a problem admiting the truth not me.
We could go on to discuss the Pelitras point area, plus other crags and routes in penwith which bear the scars of your attentions but no doubt you would deny this too.
Your claimed first ascents in penwith some as recent as 2010 many of them "solo", if true would make you the most proficient and certainly most prolific rock climber that this country and possibly the world has ever seen, you can not make these kinds of claims without coming under some scrutiny, but when you are asked questions regarding these issues you just slag off the person who asks the question.
It is shamefull the damage done to the cliffs of Penwith and I believe you are responsible however as I said before I really would like to be proved wrong and if I am shown to be I will be the first to admit it.
It does take guts to admit when your'e wrong, perhaps you wil find some yourself because one thing that is for sure is that you do know where the truth lies in this matter.

egg

Routes in Kernow get repeated on a BMC meet and you hear all about them. Believe me, there are other repeats going on down there, just passing under the radar.

In reply to Curiously Austrian IP:

Franco - have you just made that story up? Why would this witness contact you personally when you've had very little to do with this thread and have absolutely no first-hand knowledge of Cornish climbing and even less about this particular debate (correct me if I'm wrong). If so then it's not exactly helpful, is it?

In reply to M. Edwards:

Mark - no-one is likely to ever know with 100% certainty what you got up to with your routes, in Cornwall and abroad. All I know is that, along with all your hard ascents and numerous first ascents of some very good routes, there are a lot of very suspicious and unsavoury things that have surrounded your climbing career. It's very easy to blame all this on some twisted individual(s) that are following you round and trying to ruin your reputation. But I cannot believe that. I'm a firm believer in the saying "where there's smoke, there's fire" and around you there is certainly a lot of smoke.

You have not helped yourself on this thread in the slightest. You came on here to insult certain people, deflect certain questions, attempt to excuse some of your actions because 'other people do it', and then disappear again without tackling the important questions. In my opinion those are not the actions of an innocent party with nothing to hide and certainly not one who has the reputation of Cornish climbing at heart, as you claim.

This situation is very reminiscent of the R Simpson debate, and his reluctance to answer any of the accusations against him ultimately did not help his cause. The same is true of you.

In reply to M. Edwards:



Mark - did you add the extra holds to this route Millenium in Spain? Or did someone else do it and you just climbed the first ascent?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

And what's the connection with a tiny little hardware store in Hungerford?

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

No, I occasionally talk crap, but I wouldn't make up anything about a topic, which I think is so important for the whole of the UK. If Mark is proven to have lied and vandalised routes, then it is going to have large repercussions about how much people believe developers of esoteric areas (ie me). Likewise, if it is proven that there are people so envious of outsiders climbing well in their area, that they are willing to destroy their own last great problems, then that also has very serious knock-on effects. I know there are a great many people who just want to forget this messy issue, but it appears to me as if it can be resolved one way or another.

In reply to your other assertions. You're right that I don't know a lot about Cornish climbing, but I have spent countless summers down there as a child and spent 2 weeks shunting unclimbed lines there this summer, so feel some affinity with the place. The witness contacted me, because I was defending Mark from unproven allegations. Accusing Mark and then saying he MUST defend himself isn't going to work, obviously. We need to ask him who he thinks vandalised the routes and the questions on strange timings in a polite fashion (which egg was doing at the start).

If Mark has chipped routes, then he needs to own up. The video of him shows that he was obviously a talented climber, but I know how a vast quantity of hard unclimbed lines can seem daunting and I could imagine how it would lead to wanting to find short cuts. The worst thing for a climbing scene is uncertainty. Either Mark needs to own up, or the people who chipped need to own up.

In reply to Michael Hood:

You are quite right Michael, but in the meantime, I WAS there, as photographer, on a pendulous over-hanging abseil rope for maybe an hour and a half whilst Mark climbed the route in sections for a photo shoot! - I photographed Mark on practically every stretch of the route and it was my photograph in High Magazine which publicised the new route.

That same baking hot shoot day, Mark belayed me (me as a meagre E3/4 climber at the time) whilst I pathetically tried to hold the tiny quartz crystals on the steeply overhanging and blindingly sparkly exposed upper wall. It was SO thin, so steep and so punishing. There were NO chips or manufactured holds on that wall, just crystals.

I watched Mark cream each section, flawlessly. There was not a move he couldn't do.

Other people have since trashed this route, and successfully managed to discredit Mark - out of sheer jealousy for his phenomenal ability, his daring to be different. He was a Northerner claiming almost every new route in Cornwall - he is denounced as a heretic because he used bolts in places where self-appointed 'guardians of rock' decided there should be none. They hated the fact that a non-local was stealing all the lines they'd never ever have the balls or skill to climb, and here today, on this forum, having checked out the low climbing grades and even young ages of Mark's biggest critics, the no-can-do's are still bleating about Mark, fogged in their blind ignorance about a climber who could 'whoop their arses' with his eyes closed. It is supreme arrogance for those who can't, to criticise those who can. The only people to question Mark's ability are his peers, those who climb at his level, and who either climbed with him, watched all the videos and at the very least have had the courtesy to try out his actual routes.

None of us own the rock! Mother nature never appointed rock climbers to make decisions about bolting, chalk, pegs or which crags to climb on! Nature crafted all of our crags, but climbers, and only climbers, hypocritically think that bolting beautiful landscape crags is fine in such places as the stunningly impressive Malham Cove, but for some random reason not Cornish Granite ! Is it more heavenly ? If bolts destroy beauty then lets remove every single bolt on every single natural crag in the world, but if bolts are not ugly, let's not have the hypocritical stupidity to single out one climber in the UK for 'misdemeanours' when it seems misdemeanours are happening throughout the climbing world. This is nothing more than witch hunting by a mindless mob with a 'club' mentality.

200 years ago Cornish cliffs never bore rock climbers and in far less than 100 years all of us here will be dust, and any pathetic whimpering about who is right and who is wrong will be irrelevant. IF the route can be climbed gear free in 50 years time, then responsibly remove the bolts at that point, and fill the holes so that they become invisible again, but never ever let it be someone who hasn't free-climbed it first. Make sure the bolts are also removed without the idiocy of those who have now REALLY left damage on the Cornish sea cliffs in their botched efforts to remove them.

In the meantime, some will continue to waste their lives in ignorant aggression, wanting to watch the hanging in a simpletons' witch hunt, fuelled by lies upon lies, deliberate sabotage and pub driven anecdotes about the devil they desperately need.

I was there, I was ON Red Rose with Mark, and there were no manufactured holds when he climbed it, so I put it to you all, as Mark didn't create the damage, who did, and why ? Where are all the top climbers of E7+ condemning Mark on here ? There are likely none, because like in all professions, those at the top can still hold respect for each other, even when in competition, but the lower ranks are so insecure that they spit bile & ignorance at others so as not to spill their mask of false importance.

Fortunately amongst the ignorant and stupid comments on here, there are thankfully some wise words too. There will never be an end to this issue, as mob rule always dominates over fact, sense and human compassion. It seems the climbing world I knew has disappeared, and that genuine love of the sport and respect for great climbers has given way to anger, hatred and competition, the complete antithesis of what rock climbing in the great outdoors always meant to me.

Mark needs to remember that he has put up some of the best, hardest and boldest traditional and sport routes in Cornwall and the UK, and that even without the bolts, the routes will always exist (albeit vandalised by 'witch-finder' generals) and that really, the only losers are those who will go to their death beds as lifelong doubters, Thomases with lacklustre skills, who will never ever feel the exhilaration of acrobatic moves up some of the hardest rock in the landscape - Mark, you have always been one of the hardest and most graceful climbers of your era, no one can take that away from you, bolts or no bolts. Real climbers just get out on the rock rather than freak out on-line about what others are doing. Forget the no-can-dos and stupid trolls on here, live your life, for none of us are more than a speck of chalk dust in the winds of time.

In reply to properjob:

Whilst I disagree with the bolting of the crag, I don't see Mark as a villain for bolting it and it's a side issue in any case. I applaud you for having the balls to make a very public statement that supports Mark like that. Now hopefully Mark can explain the strange timing of chipping-reporting.

In reply to Curiously Austrian IP:

I would advise him not to. I have never seen anything as pathetic as this Kangaroo Court of ignorant people. It won't matter what Mark says, for there are people on here who clearly don't listen to anything. They have already decided his guilt, and will not be happy until they see him hang.

History has proven that many innocent people have been burned and gone to the gallows for crimes they didn't commit, for heresy, for political opposition and even for acts of humanity.

This forum is NOT a court. It is a bunch of mostly low grade climbers spouting bullshit about a human being they want hung. I wish it was a court, I wish this was a legal hearing, as the libel against an individual, about unproven 'crimes' being spouted on here would earn Mark a fortune.

If this was in a court I'd be able to stand at the witness box and give first hand evidence and photographic proof, whereas the trolls on here can offer NOTHING as proof, only anecdotes. Until this is a real court, I will not bother to get involved in it's stupidity. Life is for living, not for wasting, and it seems some on here don't know the difference.

In reply to properjob: If only there was a public forum where you could give your evidence and show your pictures, ah well.

In reply to JLS:

Note: the rock in the center of the glue is exactly the same colour, tone and texture (if you have indeed been able to touch it in real life?) as the rock around it. Therefore, it came from the very same position, it got stuck back on when it snapped off. The rock on this part of the crag is very brittle. You can maybe have a couple of ascents, then something will snap guaranteed.
So Mr JLS, get off your arse and do the extension to this route, as its only a short 8a and there is lots of rock above, and maybe then you will understand what happened here. Not pretty, but the bolts and the first ascent happened first, and then the holds started snapping...they still are I have noticed...if you get on the route and have yourself a look of course.

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

All I can say is get on the route, prise off the hold and you will see it fits perfectly to the rock behind it. But please put it back when you have had a look.

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

I don't think I'd employ him to tile my bathroom.

In reply to pasbury:

Maybe thats why I go to the loo outdoors more than I do indoors. But seriously, it does not look great so close up. this is a small hold not a whopper of a jug, and the sun does bleach the glue to the colour of the rock over time...and we have a lot of sun here in Spain where this route and hold is. I have seen whole blocks stuck back on routes, its part of the deal with climbing on loose rock at hard grades, stuff rips off, holds get stuck back on. Like or not....we are stuck with it!

In reply to M. Edwards:

I will have to take your word for that. I would prefer not to damage the rock any more than it already has been. Surely if so many holds keep snapping off then it's not really worth repairing. One or two I can understand, but every hold on the route?! Rock doesn't seem to be in that short supply in Spain!

Genuine question Mark - when and why do you think this campaign against you started? If it's not you then who do you think it was? It's a lot of effort for someone to go to.

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

The campaign against me started when I was a young lad of fifteen....I got pushed up against the crag and held by the scruff of the neck on my t-shirt and shouted into my face ¨Why are you putting up these hard routes, its not the image Cornwall wants, its not what we want!¨
Some years later, this man went on to write the guide for the area, with lies, untruths and innuendo. His name was Dez Hannigan.

In reply to properjob:

Nicely put PJ

E

In reply to M. Edwards:

>"Note: the rock in the center of the glue is exactly the same colour, tone and texture"

Regardless, I still think whoever made the repair was misguided. I think they would have done better to re-grade the route appropriately and as others have said if the rock is that snappy, why bother?

In reply to JLS:

I could go on to say why bother climbing all the routes that have been applied glue at some point. But on this occasion there was already investment made in purchasing the bolts, brackets and lower off stations (two rings). The first ascent had been made, and a couple of ascents after, then the rock snaps, leaving no alternative hold whatsoever. so logical conclusion stick it back on and enjoy climbing the route many more times. When we invest so much of our own money in a route, we want to enjoy it....I believe that is what its all about at the end of the day surly?

In reply to M. Edwards:

Anyway, I´m out of here now.

I've been putting a few photos of a cave I have been using training for some 20yrs, out here on the Costa Blanca Spain.
My good friend Gustavo Adolfo Henao helps run a topo site called Norop.es where you can find the topos to this cave. Look it up, its got some great long problems in there 15m to 35m long and all horizontal roof climbing, with grades from Font 7a+ to 8b.

Can´t say its been a pleasure...but you can understand that I guess.

Enjoy your cyber climbing, I´m off for the real stuff...
Adios
Mark

In reply to egg:


Can you put these photos online so we can ave a look?

In reply to M. Edwards:

Do I hear the sound of an early Cuckoo? Do I hear my name being taken in vain - and of course misspelled...

Young Mirk Edwards seems to be declining into gibberish and typical Edwordian obfuscation (fogginess to you). Be careful.

My solicitors Messrs Boots, Bollocks and Crunch, have alerted me to this dismal misspelling of my name on a public forum. As a long established author of travel books I am concerned to find publishers already contacting me, alarmed that there may be an impostor out there called 'Dez' pretending to be an associate of some obscure rock climber, aged 15. Dez! With a zeee..!!? Pleeeze...!

For the record. Any physical confrontation relevant to the matter emanating from Young Murk's fundament was sadly perpetrated against me at Levan's Wall, Cornwall many forgettable years ago. By Edweirds senior, Rollon, who indeed grabbed me by my shirt, and sprayed bile in my face. It was above a thirty-foot drop. I think I had cast mild aspersions on the Edwizards' difficulties with syntax. The response was dangerously nuclear.

Edwardz' junior was present. There was no one else other than we three. Not surprisingly, I felt very threatened. To Mork Edwardz' credit, he restrained his, by this time, raving elder and pulled him away. I felt that such pathetic and dangerous behaviour by a commercial climber was shockingly unprofessional, but I remained calm, your Honour; not something an ex-fishing skipper is necessarily good at being, especially when faced with mindless behaviour. But it was sensible, given the circumstances of a thirty-foot drop. Not surprisingly, I avoided the Edwardses' kindergarten gatherings, thereafter. I hope this clears things up in Merk Edwardzes notoriously shallow and, by now, well-chipped memory.

As to the awful drivel about my saying;

'Why are you putting up these hard routes, its not the image Cornwall wants, its not what we want'.

Slot the inevitable bolt and chip (and apostrophe) into this comment and you'll get the truth. What I said was that Cornwall could do without bolted and chipped routes, a view that I maintain to this day and a view that is shared by a huge number of climbers. I hope this clears up this particular delusion. Oh, and I certainly would not have laid hands on a fifteen year old juvenile, your Honour.

As to the Climbers' Club guidebooks that I had the privilege to write during the 1980s and early 1990s (Gawd help us! Is that 'the Past'? Is that where Murk Edwardz still lives?); In those guidebooks the Edwardses received a far better press than they deserved. That they were feverishly desperate to produce a 'guidebook' of their own was the base reason for their baleful and very foolish antagonism and obstructiveness towards me and many other innocent bystanders. Silly boyz. It was pathetic and deeply unedifying and this dull arrogance and inexperience of life outside climbing, diminish and demean them to this day.

Oddly enough, I quite like the Edwirdsus,(occasionally) and I admire and have thoroughly enjoyed many of their splendid routes even unto such modest outings as Astral Stroll and Illustrated Man. I have also, of course, had a lot of fun and laughter from their unfortunate pantomime behaviour over the years.

I live in a much bigger world than that of Mark Edwards' obsessive and narrow compass. My advice to him (he must be at least sixteen by now, if not intellectually ten and a half,) is to lie down in a darkened room somewhere and ponder on the frailties of life and the misery and internet whining and twisting and turning that his peculiar behaviour seems to have led him to.

My advice to everyone else, other than Mirk and his alarmingly hysterical cheerleaders, is to tiptoe quietly away from this awful unravelling 'thread' and leave the digging of deep holes to the boy himself.

Cornwall? I say again, me hearties...The climb and the climber mean little to me and never have done. The Cornish cliffs and coast are what matter and anyone who exploits, damages and despoils that environment for their own narrow pastime and vanities, especially with a drill, lies somewhere south of my instep. Holding that view is my privilege, not my prejudice, for any bolt-necked knee-jerkers out there.

'A man may climb like a monkey, but there is no reason that he should think like one'
(A Guide To The Higher Ranges Of the Brain, 1878)

In reply to HanniganD:

Liar! Again... It was only a very young me (I was bouldering and soloing on my own), and you with your laughing mates.

In reply to M. Edwards: Mark, did Mr. Craggs inform you of the chipping at the time he found it?

In reply to Curiously Austrian IP:

No he did not. Why he did not you will have to ask him. I have only met Paul once maybe twice and very breifly. The only other contact I had of Paul was through a copy of this letter.

In reply to M. Edwards:

PS There is a chance we may not have been available for contact.

In reply to HanniganD:

PS You have really shot yourself in the foot...How many bolts had we placed on Cornish rock when I was 15yrs old (and a minor I may add Captain Dez)...well its zero!!! So what are you on about? Get yer fact sorted for gods sake man.

In reply to M. Edwards: i thought you said you were off out climbing?

In reply to GDes:

Pissing it down over here at the moment so no climbing for us lot! anyway this is much more fun to stay in a read! ;0)

Sam and Rich Mayfield

In reply to Sam Mayfield:

Its raining on your side of Finestrat too!?

This just gets more and more strange by the hour. The real loser in all this is the reputation of Cornish climbing. What a shame.

Anyone care to share any of these photos showing the obviously chipped / unchipped holds on the routes in question? Mark? Egg? Surely you have some snaps on first and last wall etc?

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

There's a load of pictures on Egg's profile, and a *whole* load more info on a 850-post thread from last year some time.

jcm

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

As JCM says...

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=56420

In reply to properjob:

>If this was in a court I'd be able to stand at the witness box and give first hand evidence and photographic proof, whereas the trolls on here can offer NOTHING as proof, only anecdotes.

Well you say that, but you can say what you've got to say and upload your photographs, you know. And I think if you do a bit of a search you'll find a certain amount of eye-witness and photographic evidence of one thing and another.

jcm

In reply to properjob:

Disregarding your silly nonsense, what it comes to is your saying, 22 years on from the actual events, that actually you have all along had decisive eye-witness evidence that Red Rose was chipped after it had been done.

And yet, like Paul Craggs, you chose not to come forward at the time. Why was that?

>Where are all the top climbers of E7+ condemning Mark on here ?

Again, I think you'll find that a search turns up quite a number, actually.

>you have always been one of the .....most graceful climbers of your era

Come now. There's enough video evidence that effectiveness rather than grace was the keynote of ME's style.

Incidentally, an aside from higher up this thread, surely the 'Buxton stickman' was Simon Nadin and/or Richard Davies, wasn't it? I always had the impression they were so-called from their perceived reach and low weight, not from a tendency to glue holds. Any better informed person like to enlighten me?

jcm

In reply to Curiously Austrian IP:

>This whole thing is incredibly weird. There appear to be a large number of people who are witnesses of mark's routes, but none of them are willing to stand up for Mark publicly. Even more suspiciously, Mark himself won't stand up for himself in public, which can only lead me to the conclusion that the said individuals would not testify in public

Agreed, that is a strange feature. The one thing that is totally apparent is that with the possible exception of his father ME is his own worst enemy. It's rare to meet someone with such an anti-flair for dealing with his critics.

On the other hand, a cursory acquaintance with the history of Cloggy in the 1960's will show anyone how much of this happened.

jcm

In reply to HanniganD:



Phew! I am heartily relieved that your apparent doppelgänger ("a paranormal double of a living person, typically representing evil or misfortune"), responsible for a guide full of lies, untruths (as opposed to lies?) and innuendo does not exist. We can all sleep in our beds at night in the safe knowledge that the author of such a distorted record of Penwith climbing up to the 80s and early 90s is a mere figment of the imagination.

Surely this thread is beginning to diminish us all on both sides of the debate?

Earlier Properjob makes an impassioned and polemical defence of his friend; the main problem with polemic as with war itself is that the truth is often the first casualty.

First off, very few on here, least of all myself question Mark's ability, his record of hard climbing on the cliffs of Cornwall is outstanding. The argument has always been about whether or not drilling for bolts, holds or protection slots is acceptable on Penwith seacliffs. There is no doubt that all of these have been found on routes first climbed by Rowland or Mark and their companions but as yet no-one has admitted responsibility. They were not the first to place bolts on Cornish granite. I was there, (failing to make a clean unaided lead of Grendel) when Pete Biven and Trevor Peck placed protection bolts on the FA of Beowulf in 1966. Pete justified his action in print by alluding to their combined age and the lack of natural protection, but even in those dark days before the advent of cyberspace, there was a howl of protest from virtually all those who had climbed at Bosigran and the bolts were soon removed.

That is the point. The Cornish seacliffs and West Penwith in particular have a long history of true adventure climbing: the same as Cloggy, where there was a similar outcry when Rowland placed bolts on his girdle traverse, or Pete Crew on The Boldest. Malham Cove is, I agree, a stunning ampitheatre of natural limestone, but crucially it's central and highest section was first and foremost an aid venue, and so it's development as a high quality sport crag was widely accepted.

One of the joys of this crazy game we play is that there are no written rules. Climbing evolves, not logically, but mostly by consensus amongst the players themselves. There's no bolt on Hairless Heart because the majority agree that it would destroy the essence of the climb. Down here in the westcountry we have hundreds of hairless hearts throughout the grades, some of them requiring total commitment, the ability to handle loose or brittle rock and an acceptance that failure could lead to injury or worse; Mark's Rewind, the first E10 in the country according to his website, represents the top end of the trad ethic, whilst the loose holds and lack of protection of say Wreckers' Slab lie somewhat further down the scale. (You would need a container full of Sika to fix most of those in place!)

I will never climb Rewind or any of Mark's harder routes, with or without bolts, nor any of the futuristic lines I have found in over 50 years of climbing and exploration on the Cornish seacliffs, but that does not mean I cannot promote a principle or hold a view.

Simply put, I believe that the Cornish seacliffs should not have been (nor should be) bolted, their holds glued or otherwise altered and as far as I'm concerned the grade is immaterial. It would seem that the majority share this view, even those who perhaps feel that Carn Vellan should be the exception, which is why I put my hand up at the BMC meeting in Redruth to join the small group who volunteered to carry out the removal of all drilled gear.

Whenever it can be demonstrated that the majority of the British climbing community would not object to placing bolts or manufacturing gear placements on these routes then I will retire (dis)gracefully. The Redruth meeting agreed a moratorium on the use of drilled pegs and bolts. I would be more than happy to continue to debate this question, and I regret the distasteful, highly personalised nature of much of this thread: if only the truth could be given the light of day then we could all forget the furore, lighten the load of those unfortunate enough to be struggling with finding out the historical facts for the next edition of the definitive guide, and perhaps grant the Edwards the recognition they have earned for the hundreds of quality routes they have contributed. Let's all argue on the principle not the individual.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Just looked at those and Egg1952's gallery. That really is disgusting and whoever did it should be ashamed of themselves.

But I meant more specifically where are photos of Mark on his ascent of first and last wall to see if the chipping happened before or after.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Precisely. Care to share the photos you took at the time? It's pretty easy to scan old prints and slides these days.

In reply to M. Edwards:
Apart from slagging off everyone who questions your actions and inventing sad stories of ""minor abuse" that are as laughable as they are fictitious, anyone who has ever met Des Hanigan would know that this claim of yours is complete B/S, i think the comment you refer to;- re bolts would be a comment made in the 90's during the bolt debates when you were somewhat older but obviously had'nt grown up very much, now wee "dez" as you like to call him would not be silly enough to tackle physically such a strapping lad like you he's far too canny for that. However what these claims do do is to divert attention from the real issues, please get these mates of yours "Proper job etc to post the photos they claim to have of you climbing an unchipped Red rose.
I don't know exactly how old you are but I was under the impression that you were 16 when i met you and your father in 1982 and you had'nt at that time put up any routes of your own that were a significant grade leap so why would Des be confronting you violently around this time.When I met you in 1982 you and your father made no complaints to us about the other local activists at the time and only started this antagonism when the guide book was given to others because by now people were aware that your claims could not be trusted why else didn't the most knowledgable and prolific climbers who were mad keen to do it , be given the guide to write? perhaps it because of incidents such as "cool diamonds" when 1982 you and Rowland suggested that Dickie Swinden and I try your new route "Cool diamonds E3 6a you even have a photo of us in your guide which shows we were there, When we did get on it we found the lower part to somewhat harder than E3 and the top bit impossible due to lack of any holds, we met you in the queens arms later that evening and told you of our findings to which your father said he did'nt remember the route being hard at the top even though it was only two weeks since the "first ascent"The next day whilst climbing at zawn kellys one of our party(seven witnesses) said "hey there's someone on that route you guys were trying yesterday", out come the bino's! lo and behold it's you and your dad , with your dad aid climbing feet in slings up the difficult lower part followed by a 45 minute pause at the impossible part hacking away , some years later, Stephan Glowacz repeated the route( the only other ascent as i am aware) when it was given a post chipping grade of E56b quite leap from E3? It is issues similar to this that have been ongoing in both yours and you fathers climbing careers that have led to the need to querry your claims.
As for the other questions re chipping and route creation please lets keep it simple and to the point(no slagging)
HOW DID YOU NOT NOTICE THE CHIPPING ON FIRST AND LAST WALL WHEN YOU MADE THE ASCENT PHOTOGRAPHED BY EGBURT DOZEKAL AND PUBLISHED BY YOU IN THE MAGAZINE AND HOW DID YOU NOT NOTICE THE CHIPPING ON RED ROSE FOR A WHOLE YEAR BEFOR MSSRS POLLIT AND HAMPER BROUGHT IT TO YOUR ATTENTION?
answers please
egg
ps the video of the "pink point" ascent of "nuts" is an impressive albeit well choreograpghed piece of climbing tough there are a couple of instances where there appears to be some tension being applied to the rope by the belayer, I have never said you didn't climb these route merely asking questions about the style, a video of the trad ascent of rewind, the bolt free re ascent of the repaired red rose or solo of academia would be appreciated.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


True. The Buxton Stickman was Simon Nadin, so called because of his long skinny limbs. He was the Ondra-shaped-climber of his day.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

According to Wiki Simon and Richard Davis (Davies?) were the original Buxton Stick Men - a name coined by Phil Burke.

I remember them at Stoney, top-roping Scarab, Simon slipped of at around half height and hit the ground "You can take the bloody rope in next time if you want" says he!


Chris

¨if only the truth could be given the light of day¨

1. I have given video evidence of the first ascent of Nuts are not the only Fruit (8b+) after I was continually insulted that I had not climbed the route on this thread. I have been given no credit for that or no apology from you or anyone.

2. I have provided historical record that witnesses were present on the first ascent of Red Rose and the route was NOT chipped for my ascent. Yet all you do is try to discredit this evidence.

3. My good friend and professional photographer has taken his time to come on here and say he was witness to Red Rose not being chipped for my ascent. Yet all he gets is abuse that he must be lying because he is simply my friend.


What more must I do to satisfy you? You still keep giving innuendo to the side that I am responsible contrary to all the above. Why? Is it some kind of sadistic fun you are enjoying from prolonging this quite frankly ¨a witch hunt¨?

Finally, I do not apologies for placing the fixed equipment on any of my routes. In Cornwall, there was NO BMC policy when I climbed these routes, the BMC policy came many years after the first ascents. Carn Vellan´s fixed equipment was placed when the BMC policy said and I quote ¨NO BOLTS ON GRANITE¨, Carn Vellan is NOT granite. The person or persons who made the quite frankly mess of chopping the fixed equipment, leaving often 90% of the fixed equipment but unusable for climbing, only did so after a whirlwind meeting to vote and change the policy to ¨No bolts on Cornish rock¨ when they realised their error.

Finally, during my ascent of Rewind, that was purely made to throw the insult back to the fixed equipment choppers, I found one of the holds at the crux severely damaged. This I believe was probably done whilst the Fixed equipment chopper tried to attach something like a peg into the rock to hold themselves in to do their chopping. If you don´t believe me the video shows how I use the hold as its former sport route, and the reality now is quite different, more of a poor two finger flared jam. Go have a climb and see for yourself.

In reply to egg:

>the bolt free re ascent of the repaired red rose

I don't think Mark's ever said he did RR without the bolts, has he? My impression was that the reascent was on a top-rope.

jcm

In reply to M. Edwards:

Mark: The BMC policy on bolts in West Penwith came about because of the serious concerns expressed by many climbers about what was happening. Some of them were themselves equally talented climbers as keen as you were/are to push local standards.

As I pointed out in my previous post, the precedent for not bolting back at the time you and your father began to use the drill, was already there with the speedy removal of the bolts from Beowulf. Your re-ascent of Rewind might have been inspired as an insult to the "choppers" but it may well have had the effect of proving that even the hardest and most serious routes at Carn Vellan or elsewhere can be climbed without bolts, if not now then at some point in the future.

As the representative body for English and Welsh climbing the BMC try to be even-handed over such issues. Where climbing using fixed gear has become established they support, through their area committees, any initiatives to ensure that best practice is followed. This is what gives British climbing its immense variety.

To give you another example. Anyone who has sought to take a drill to Cloggy or Scafell East has soon discovered that the majority view of leaving the last great challenges free from bolts has prevailed. I would argue that the likes of Birkett, Pearson and Macleod have taken that challenge on board, and that if drilled gear had been placed routes such as The Walk of Life, Echo Wall and so on would never have happened or would have been seen as run-of-the-mill hard but safe routes.

It seems that nowadays the FA of any top end new route has to be filmed, photographed and witnessed before it is accepted. I find that a sad state of affairs, but with the financial and celebrity stakes so high and the apparent lack of transparency in the past perhaps it's inevitable.

In reply to M. Edwards:

>2. I have provided historical record that witnesses were present on the first ascent of Red Rose and the route was NOT chipped for my ascent. Yet all you do is try to discredit this evidence.

Is that right? Paul Craggs says he abseiled down it the day before and ten days afterwards, and Glyn Davies says he did a photoshoot at some unspecified time. I don't think either of them says they were there on the first ascent. Not that it matters, really.

As for 'all you do is try and discredit this evidence', that's what happens in historical controversies, I'm afraid. SOMEONE has acted in an unthinkable manner and lied about it all these years; it's natural that people try and discover who and that that means examining what people say carefully.

If it's right that this people have emerged for the first time in public with their stories on this thread, then it's surprising, don't you think?

And to say you've had photographs all the time, but didn't produce them before and won't do so now. Is that what most people would do?

Let's take Paul Craggs' evidence at face value. He says that ten days after your ascent the bolts had been smashed and the route chipped. We know who smashed the bolts (or says he did) - Andy Newton. It seems a bit unlikely that he'd heard from as far away as Llanberis that the route had been done, and driven down and smashed the bolts within ten days of its first ascent, doesn't it?

Still, the first ascent date is a matter of record, and it would be easy enough to ask Andy N whether he did indeed go and take the bolts out within ten days of that date. And indeed whether he noticed the chipping when he took the bolts out.

jcm

In reply to egg:

>The next day whilst climbing at zawn kellys one of our party(seven witnesses) said "hey there's someone on that route you guys were trying yesterday", out come the bino's! lo and behold it's you and your dad , with your dad aid climbing feet in slings up the difficult lower part followed by a 45 minute pause at the impossible part hacking away

Let's have less of this I-have-witnesses-but-they-won't-come-forward stuff, on both sides.

Who were these seven people and are they prepared to corroborate what you say?

jcm

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

>But I meant more specifically where are photos of Mark on his ascent of first and last wall to see if the chipping happened before or after.

There were previously published in High photos of the FA, and on a Dutch blog photos of a second ascent by a friend of Mark's. The link to that blog from the old thread now takes one to the most recent posts on the blog, but I expect one could scroll backwards to the right date.

From memory, the FA photo showed the same cam placements being used, but Mark said that they had not then been improved as they were later. The shot was too distant to see whether any of the heavy cleaning had occurred.

The second ascent photo suggested to some people that there had been at least some of the heavy cleaning, and to others was inconclusive. An email purporting to be from the (German I think) friend of Mark's who made the second ascent was produced saying that there was no sign of the drilled cam slots then, although I don't think it was specifically put to him (he didn't appear; I think ME or a friend produced the email) whether what's in Egg's photos was present. The possibility that he thinks that's just normal cleaning remained (at least as far as I understood it).

jcm

In reply to Iain Peters:

>Anyone who has sought to take a drill to Cloggy or Scafell East has soon discovered that the majority view of leaving the last great challenges free from bolts has prevailed

Well, just to save Mark the trouble, there was the Boldest and AMSND, of course.....

jcm

In reply to egg:


Can you put these photos online so we can ave a look?

-------------------------

Surely these photos are the obvious 'smoking gun', so lets see them.

In reply to M. Edwards:

I still see no apologies coming forward for saying (and thinking I bet) I did not climb Nuts are not the only Fruit (8b+) when the video clearly shows I did. Not one of you can put your head up and admit that.

Shows the spineless types that come on this thread and say these things against me all the time.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

>And indeed whether he noticed the chipping when he took the bolts out.

Actually there's no need to ask him that; he says it was already chipped when he took the bolts out in his post on the other thread. So if we accept PC's evidence, that means that within ten days of the route being done ME and GD had done their photoshoot. Then news had got out to wicked perpetrators in Cornwall and they'd abseiled down ME's local crag and chipped his route while he wasn't looking without actually chopping the bolts, and news had also got out to Llanberis, and someone from there had driven down to Cornwall and chopped the bolts, again without ME noticing. Local climbers unknown to any of the three parties then abseiled the line and discovered both the chipping and the bolt removal, but told no-one. No-one else then noticed the damage for the next year, including ME, a professional rock climber who will have presumably guided many parties at Sennen in this period and walked past his greatest masterpiece on many occasions.

It would be easy enough too, presumably, to find out who the editor of Climber and Hillwalker was at the time and ask whether they received PC's letter and why they didn't publish it.

And to ask Chris Hamper whether the bolts were there when he went down.

It would be interesting if someone abseiled down RR and provide pictures of what's there now. I don't think anyone took photos at the time, did they? Anyone up for this public service?!

jcm

In reply to M. Edwards:

Only one person has said that, Mark. It's hardly the main point.

Equally, it's a little surprising that you won't apologise even now for placing all your bolts. I thought that you said in a previous discussion that it (or at least some of them) had been a mistake?

jcm

In reply to MattDTC:

>Can you put these photos online so we can ave a look?

They have been on line and probably still are, as I said before. I doubt if egg has them to post up.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

The only bolt that was a ¨mistake¨ was the one I tried to miss drill on the lip of the roof of Scandals and just above a jug. The rotary drill cracked the rock and split it open. If you've seen Scandals you will see its a narrow roof of quite poor granite, bits have fallen off to produce the roof. There is no natural protection. So, I do regret that, but if I knew about sika glue then, I would have repaired the botch job myself.

Both Pollit and Hamper enjoyed the climb, Pollit doing the second ascent redpoint, although Hamper failed to climb it. I know, because I was there when they climbed it....I took them there to do it.

There was no mention of chipped holds, they saw what had happened and nothing was said more. We just enjoyed a sport route in the sun on a Cornish crag.

In reply to M. Edwards:

PS I should say Pollit, Hamper and Glenn the photographer were staying as guests at our house. Also a previous visit Hamper with Martin Atkinson had stayed as guests oft our house, and on that occasion the both had encouraged me to bolt Red Rose.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

There are also the two placed by Redhead, since chopped.

Not to mention the West Buttress Girdle which had a number of bolts on one pitch (now avoided a few metres higher by free climbing of a relatively low grade). Now who was it that put those in? The name escapes me for the moment.

ALC

In reply to a lakeland climber:

Two? Tormented Ejaculation - what was the other one?

jcm

In reply to a lakeland climber:

And I believe still not climbed free after how many decades now since the hand places pin head sized bolts went in as an aid pitch?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Margins of the Mind - there was a high bolt placed "to backup the belay" - check the photo in Welsh Rock of JR on the lower wall.

ALC

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I give up! Scandals is quite a few MILES away from Red Rose.

In reply to M. Edwards:

I'd be surprised if the route has had more than a handful of ascents in whatever style (one tick in the logbooks). Definitely a connoisseur's route.

Just making the point that slightly more bolts have gone in to Cloggy over the years than most realise.

I think the bolts/golos/pins that your dad placed have long since rusted away - I don't remember seeing them the last time I was in that area of the crag and that was over ten years ago. I doubt you can even see the rust stains!

ALC

In reply to M. Edwards:

I realise Scandals and Red Rose are different routes. I took your comment about Pollitt enjoying the climb as being about Red Rose, which is what I'm interested in and I thought we were talking about. Presumably you were in fact talking about Scandals. So my inference that the bolts were still in then was wrong, and so was my previous post about Paul C.

Did you go with Pollitt and Hamper when they tried Red Rose, then?

jcm

In reply to Iain Peters:


It doesn't though does it. At most it proves that it is possible to solo the route once you have got the sequence wired on bolts.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

No, we had just returned from the States on a climbing trip, so we had a busy house at the time to organise for the summer. They returned to say Red Rose had been chipped, and that´s the first we knew of it. My knee jerk reaction, and I regret saying it, was to say local climbers were responsible. But under the continuous witch hunt I have been receiving since I was kid its no wonder I had come to that conclusion. At the end of the day I have no hard evidence, but I was given a name under the understanding it must be kept confidential.... All I can say here there are reasons beyond climbing for doing so.

In reply to Quiddity:

Totally agree.

In reply to M. Edwards:


So do you think this person may be responsible for chipping your other routes?

I'm a bit confused about the timeline of events relating to Red Rose and how Paul Craggs, and Pollitt & Hamper fit in. Any chance you could just set that straight for the people not familiar with the dates etc please?

In reply to M. Edwards:

>At the end of the day I have no hard evidence, but I was given a name under the understanding it must be kept confidential....

That's interesting.

Who gave you this name?

How did he/she say that he knew this name had been responsible?

What reason was given for saying that the name had to be kept confidential?

jcm

In reply to M. Edwards:

>My knee jerk reaction, and I regret saying it, was to say local climbers were responsible.

Well, why regret that? It wasn't you, so presumably *some* climber was responsible, and why does it matter really whether you guessed they were local or not - certainly a reasonable guess in the circumstances.

So were the bolts still in at the time Hamper and Pollitt visited, then?

jcm

In reply to Quiddity:

I don't think Rewind was soloed, was it? The photos on CW's website show it as being done with gear, and I seem to recall at the time it was written up as being done with various (said to be very poor) gear.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

My mistake. Irrespective of whether it's a solo or a bold lead on poor gear, though, I don't think it can be described accurately as having been done 'without the bolts' as the bolts were crucial to the process.

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

Lets not get ahead of ourselves here. As far as I am concerned only Red Rose has been blatantly chipped to destroy some holds totally, all within and about a THREE meter length. Note: NOT EVERY HOLD WAS VANDALISED. The route is 20m high. And the difficult to reach hard climbing under the roof was untouched. Probably because it could not be reached by abseil.
My other new routes, often discovered in totally new undiscovered climbing areas, I simply cleaned as has been ethical to do so on just about every new route put up in the UK around that same time. I did not resort to whole scale clearing of vegetation, as some have done (check out Super-cruise that was first named The Gardened Path at St. Loy..We saw the huge pile of vegetation at the foot of the crag, reported it, and the name suddenly was changed!!! What a surprise!). I cleaned just loose blocks (normally at the top of the cliffs), and for the harder climbs I would test the route out via top rope, any looseness would be pulled off, wire brushed and chalked up. Some walls are grittier than others, the quality of the stone varies so much, so the results would vary obviously from route to route. BUT blatant chipping of holds on blank faces was NEVER done. Sadly, when Granite is cleared it leaves unsightly scars, its just the nature of the rock-type. But thankfully over a very short time, it does return to the colour and shade of the rest of the crag...its simple weathering by sea, sun and often bird shit on the ledges that had very dangerous loose blocks I have knocked off at the top-outs.

Granite is brittle, especially on the South Coast of West Penwith. Its unavoidable to pull off the stuff on the hard routes, the rock just does not allow for small holds on hard routes to be pulled down on hard, it just snaps.

But it does give great climbs. Son of Satan (E8 6c) Hella Point, has just had its second ascent by Alexis Parry and he has confirmed to me both grade and the crunchy quality of the route. He has NOT told me it is chipped, as I applied myself to this very crunchy loose wall in the same way as I have on so many lesser grade routes as described above.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

The bolts had been chopped when they visited the route.

In reply to Alan James - UKC:
the photos here clearly show the chipping of first and last wall as it is today, who else knew the route existed at this time ? also the picture taken by egbert Dozekal which i think was published in the magazine article also shows the full extent of the chipping as it exist today,so how come this was not noticed by mark it is he in the piccy on this ascent?
I did aknowledge marks pink point of "nuts" though i not sure if the rope wasn't weighted on this ascent, from the video it looks as if it possibly was and as i never acussed mark of not climbing the route no apologies are necessary, i merely questioned the style of ascent pink point was never how the route was written up . Now rewind? was the gear preplaced on that making it just a sport route using fixed trad gear? or was it climbed properly? how come we don't get the un chipped red rose pictures and explanation for not noticing the chipping on both red rose and first and last wall? or an explanation of what mark and rowland were doing on and to cool diamonds the day after the second ascent with one point of aid by dickie swinden and i? can marks witness's please just post their photos why would they keep them hidden when they could exonerate their hero and make us all look silly why ?
these routes that have been mentioned of course are not isolated incidents pellitras zawn area looks as if a demo crew have been through with wrecking bars, rats in a rage and the tempest at chair ladder both have chipped holds the damaged crags and vandalism is widespread and all of it seems to be on routes claimed by mark or rowland ?
as the chipping does exist the culprit has to be either mark or rowland (remember mastadon rowland when it was E5/6) or there is a mole in their camp who is aware of what their next move is going to be for it seems he or her have chipped the holds whilst they are still warm from the duos chalky grasp, so speedily efficient is this chipper to be able to chip routes nobody else even knows about.

In reply to egg:

My very good Egbert has contacted me and said the First and Last Wall is NOT the same route as he climbed with me on the first ascent. There are DEEPER holes in the route and more of them. He even told me recently that more have appeared, so how does that weigh-up Mr Egg, I have not been to Cornwall for 2 and a 1/2 years now? Don´t you live a mile and a half from it?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:




In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Well, why regret that? It wasn't you, so presumably *some* climber was responsible, and why does it matter really whether you guessed they were local or not - certainly a reasonable guess in the circumstances.


John;

For clarification; At the time of the Red Rose debacle there were, at a measured guess, only about a dozen 'local' climbers active in Penwith. This is something that outside climbers can never quite understand. West Cornwall always produced young surfers in those days rather than climbers in any number. Visiting climbers made up the bulk of those out on the cliffs.

It was always weird that the Edwardses became so demented about such a tiny group of modestly performing local climbers, although the Edwardses only became aggressive and oppositional after the bolting and chipping issues emerged and a few local climbers had the 'audacity' to object. There was never any ludicrous 'personal attack', 'vendetta' or Perrinesque 'witch hunt'. Just fair and honest criticism. The Edwardses created a poisonous atmosphere over bolting and chipping and were fatally encouraged by the likes of Perrin's sycophantic Climber magazine articles -('Burn the witches'; I think Old Uncle Jim had been slavering over fevered memories of Brit Eklund in the Wicker Man) and by heavily biased magazine reports - by people who worked for the Edwardses! My writing of the CC guidebooks produced paranoia of a different kind.

Contrary to Mark Edwards' confused memories, I knew little of him as a teenager, but from the occasional meeting, I thought he was a very pleasant and obviously talented lad at that time.

Red Rose has been raised here and is relevant to the current bananas of 'unknowns', 'knowns', 'not knowns', 'known knowns' etc. regarding who the Edwardses ''Phantom Chipper' is alleged to be. Regarding Red Rose; for the Edwardses to allege in the first instance that 'local climbers' had vandalised their routes was very damaging to our small group of clearly identifiable local climbers. The Edwardses soon panicked and extended their allegations to the entire West Country! But, the damage was done because Chris Hamper had honestly and fairly reported the Edwardses' allegations in a national climbing magazine. In Penwith, we soon got really racked off with outsiders, even jokingly, saying that some of us were going round vandalising Edwards' routes. It was not funny, believe me.

The past is indeed another, often alien, country and we really should leave much of it behind; but not all of it, if we are to learn from mistakes and to make positive progress. My belief, sadly, is that none of this will ever subside for so long as apologists for the Edwardses, however sincere they may be, keep trying to 'rehabilitate' them through such damaging often unregulated forums as these. I believe that it must be very damaging to Mark Edwards generally and is certainly not helping his image in the wider climbing world. This thread was started by an admirer of his. Nothing wrong with that; but Edwards carries too much negative baggage for the thread to have remained a mere love-in among his friends and apologists. The fact that Edwards was foolish enough to suddenly throw out gratuitous and dangerous allegations about a still snappy old dinosaur like me, when I had made no comments on the thread, indicates how out of control people under stress can become. Did he expect me not to whack him down with contempt!

Perhaps he should just shut up, reform his tactics (if he thinks they need reforming?), get on with his life, lose his UKC addiction and expand his horizons beyond the fluff-filled navel of his climbing. Sadly, as he slips in further sly innuendoes about a 'local climber' living 'a mile and a half' away from Cornwall's latest chipping saga, there's not much hope of that. He's back at square one, it seems.

I move that this thread be terminated, regardless of unanswered questions. (Not much chance of that either, M' Lud).

In reply to a lakeland climber:

Thought I had a copy of Welsh Rock but it turns out I've two of Cumbrian Rock! Anyway ...

From page 177 of the current Cloggy guide:

"A belay bolt was placed above the roof. This has been removed since and a nut placement excavated beneath"

ALC

In reply to M. Edwards:
"As far as I am concerned only Red Rose has been blatantly chipped to destroy some holds totally"
As far as I remember, when Andy and I abbed the route (we never tried to climb it) we found chipped holds not removed holds. The bolts had also been squashed flat. If the holds have been chipped off then that must have happened later.

In reply to chrishamper:

Thanks for your input Chris. When I repaired the route, over 12yrs ago I guess now it must be, I had to rebuild some holds and fill in others. What there is left there now is as accurate restoration as I could remember climbing. I re-climbed to check, its about there for the grade. Looks better and there for someone to enjoy if they want to give it a go.

Regards to you, and can´t imagine how long its been since I saw you last,
All the best
Mark

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Mr James;

Oh dear...

Mark Edwards latest posting re. generators etc. is verging on paranoia. I have no personal information about, or indeed involvement with, the incident that Edwards alleges took place. Whatever it was, it seems an entirely isolated, if deeply unpleasant spat, divorced from the central issue of alleged widespread damage to climbs in Cornwall and Spain and who is responsible for same.

It also seems to be very distressing and damaging to the apparently vulnerable Edwards' family, to this day. On those grounds alone I again suggest that you terminate this increasingly directionless thread. It may spring up afresh, of course, but breaking this thread will at least create a healthy breathing space. There seems to be no way forward at the moment, frankly, and I have no wish to be involved further, however obliquely, in causing such obvious and escalating distress.

Des Hannigan

In reply to egg:

Egg;

Forgive my impertinence, but I would advise withdrawing from this apparently insoluble debate. Faced with similar problems over the 1990s Penwith guides, I simply plodded on with the job of serving the larger climbing community, regardless of the awful difficulties that confronted me. Only the collective force of several climbers for the year 2000 editions of the guide spread the irritation, although I am still abused over those guides!

I suggest that during research for the new guides, everyone involved should simply record objectively whatever they may feel are controversial issues, preferably with accompanying witnesses, and then leave the climbing public, who matter collectively much more than individuals, to make up their own minds.

Des Hannigan

In reply to egg:


Egg, you make some good points but I have to say your overall position is lessened by what seems an unduly vitriolic stance. (Re a previous thread on here, it seemed as though you felt you and your friends had been 'done down' by Mark and Rowland, over the years. Even so, the vitriolic stance - as it seems to me - leaves the reader decidedly uneasy.)

Rewind - is it really 'just a sport route using fixed trad gear'? 'Cos, if it is, then can I, as a useless middle(old?)-aged sport climbing punter, get on it?

Alternatively it's not only seriously hard but also death on a stick and punters of any hue or variety need emphatically not apply.

Now I'd love it to be just 'a sport route using fixed trad gear' but I seriously doubt that this is the case. And, if it's not the case, you might have the good grace to tender Mark an apology about this (even if you still disagree about most everything else.)


Mick

In reply to M. Edwards:

Good night and goodbye.

May your Gods go with you and may you resolve your difficulties, with climbing and with life.

Des Hannigan

In reply to Mick Ward:

Hi Mick,

I am not holding my breath for any apology from Egg. But thanks anyway for highlighting some good points.

All the best
Mark

Just about all this thread has done is to highlight what an unfathomly bizarre, petty and insular place Cornwall was through the 80's and 90's.

For even one of these pantomime-like stories that have been told by Des, Egg or Mark on this thread to be true is hard to believe, but if they all actually did happen then it's just comical. What a shame that the rock has been the one to suffer at the end of the day. I just hope it will be a lesson for this and future generations of how personal differences and insecurities can get out of hand and result in this farce.

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

An awful slowly unfolding car crash of a 'discussion', that has now completely gone to the (straw?) dogs.

In reply to HanniganD:

Absolutely; it is becoming an increasingly discordant unfinished symphony. Better for all concerned that we move on from an unsavoury recent past at odds with everything Cornish climbing stands for and respect the decisions of the widely publicised BMC meeting earlier in the year. Such drilled gear that it is possible to remove without damaging the rock will be removed, any that can't will be left to Rust In Peace.

I do not envy the current CC guidebook team, especially when it comes to writing the historical section as they will once again have to sift through a mountain of innuendo, conflicting accounts and misinformation.

If any good is to come out of this unfortunate thread, it might be that amongst the 10,000 or so who have viewed it there will be some for whom the bold, bald walls and roofs of granite, killas or greenstone will be incentive enough to venture across the Tamar into the wildest corners of Kernow and fearlessly face those savages now known as Local Climbers.

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

Pete, it's not just Cornwall, it's been many out of the way climbing places, though, I admit, Cornwall is the most extreme example.

In my experience, when a climber operating at a higher standard moves into an out of the way area, the scene is often set for friction.

Personally I got this, many years ago, in Ireland. Started climbing there, moved to England, got 'reasonable', went back grades better than the locals. Treated as God by some; snide remarks by others. You just want to be treated normally.

Many years ago, at the beginning of his climbing career, a leading activist here in Dorset was told, "Don't ever show us up like that again!" For f*ck's sake!!

Even in the early years of my more recent geriatric Dorset rambles, I got the feeling that the odd nose or two had been put out of joint... until it was obvious to all that I was entirely harmless.

So it's happened elsewhere - although this seems the most extreme example. If, as seems likely, the protagonists can never agree, then maybe we just have to agree to disagree - but draw a line under it. No more shit slung - from anybody.

Earlier it was suggested that this was fun. It's not fun. It's horribly destructive. We need to get beyond it.

We all share a common humanity. We all share a love of climbing. And we all share a sense that West Penwith is a magical, ethereal place. Can we not build on these three things?

Mick

In reply to egg: It might be useful (but maybe not in this forum) to compile a list of all these "problem" cornish climbs together with the problem (disputed ascent, chipped holds, style of first ascent, whatever).

This list could then be sent to all the main protaganists and known (or unknown) witnesses asking for any information that they are willing to divulge. Could also ask for any photos/videos that may be evidential and also whether they are willing for said to be published or only viewed by the guide team in trying to come to a conclusion where possible.

This might at least cut down the number of disputed climbs even if it doesn't clear up all of them.

And where the accounts don't stack up, the guide should be able to give both sides of the story.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

And who are you to call me names? I have never met you, never heard of you, sorry I don´t even know who you are at all. Have you done anything? I have not heard of it, and as you say my head is always in guide books. Your just a nobody, that´s it isn't it...you´re Mr Nobody!

Good night!

In reply to M. Edwards:

Guy's I'd drop it, as already said by someone this is like watching a car crash .. and people tend to get hurt in these. I am sure that there are mutiple viewpoints etc etc and I'm also sure there's a great deal of truth in Mick Ward's wise words. I'm also very sure that Mark is a much better climber than communicator where he comes across as being a bit naive. Fascinating though the vitriol is to read, it would probably be best left alone now. If I were Mark, I 'd make damn sure I got independent witnesses and video in future ascents and avoid personal attacks. The sceptics would be better sticking to facts.

I don;t climb much in Cornwall, I don't know MArk or any of other protagonists but I did do an early ascent of Demolition at Sennen where IMHO there were definitely a couple of chipped holds in positions which seemed totally unnecessary for a climber of Mark Edwards reputed ability. EIther the guy's an idiot ot there was something funny going on there.

In reply to JimR:

I don´t know if you read the article by Jim Perrin in Climber about me some years ago now? Well, Jim came down to Cornwall to interview and climb with me and my dad. It was originally going to be one article, but there was so much he could write he made too, one for each of us. I took Jim up Demolition (and Atlantic Ocean Wall), and that was the first time I´d climbed Demolition since the first ascent. Jim wrote in his article, I still have a copy, that he ¨saw no chipped holds¨ on Demolition. So, either they had magically disappeared, or you may have been mistaken in you findings, I don´t know? But I do respect what you say, please don´t take offence.

Just to add a little humour to this though, my interview was called ¨The bad boy of British Rock¨....but the article does indeed defend me none the less, and I thank Jim for that.

A year later, I think it was, his son William Perrin comes to stay with us for the summer. We climbed lots of new routes together, went bouldering and soloing together, and generally had a great time. He was excellent company and a great young man. Will (William Perrin) also belayed me on my ascent of Rewind (E10) too. Will also had a go on the rope, he thought it was in his words ¨nails¨. Just thought you´d like to know that.

In reply to M. Edwards:

Alternatively, Mr Perrin may have been wrong, it would'nt be the first time!

In reply to Iain Peters:

Iain

I think there is perhaps a more wide-ranging concern about routes claimed by Mark and Rowland than whether or not they were responsible for chipping etc, and that is whether they actually climbed all of their claimed routes properly (or at all) in the first place. I have heard many accounts over the years, about routes climbed/claimed by the Edwards, from people whom I trust without reservation, but I prefer to rely primarily on my own, limited experiences. In the "daisyclimbing" thread I referred to a number of routes at Pellitras Point that I and others had climbed some time before Mark's claimed ascents. His grades came in some two to four grades higher than ours, which we found puzzling. It was pointed out to Mark on UKC that we had done the routes earlier and he was directed to our route descriptions on javu website. After initially claiming that his routes differed from ours (tantamount to arguing black was white as far as Cold War/Seal of Approval and Rapscallion/Elegant Universe were concerned) he conceded to our claims.

I haven't climbed many of Mark's more recent routes, but towards the end of one day a few years ago Rik Meek and I attempted what we thought was a new line on Porth Loe Buttress. We discovered later, when the West Cornwall supplement was published, that Mark had claimed it. Mark's name for the route is Disiecta Membra, p. 72 of the supplement. On that day, I led the crux mantleshelf moves low down but then cheated by climbing easy ground to the right to place a high runner to protect the otherwise unprotected padding moves up the slab, which turned out to be much easier than expected. Having blown the ascent, I had a half-hearted look at the top crack before scuttling off right up easy ground and back left to belay Rik. Rik climbed the entire route comfortably and confirmed that the bold mantleshelf was the crux. We agreed that the slab was no more than 5a and Rik found the top crack about 5b. Overall we thought it would warrant a grade of hardish E2 or perhaps a soft E3. Of course we didn't claim the route as neither of us had led it properly, and we never returned to climb it.

Mark graded this route E6, which again is so far removed from the correct grade that it unavoidably raises questions. I should add that the line of this route is obvious and we have no doubt that the line we tried was Mark's route.

The anomalies in the gradings of the above Pellitras/ Porth Loe routes are my only direct personal experiences that have caused doubts about Mark's claims, but these and other accounts I am aware of make me generally reluctant to accept any of the Edwards' claims with confidence, even though it may be obvious that they have/had the ability to climb the routes in question. It's a shame that such a cloud has been cast over Cornish climbing for so many years and I don’t see how – at least for me and many others I have spoken to - it can ever be removed. As far as I’m concerned Mark has removed any doubt about his ascent of “Nuts…” on Carn Vellan (very impressive ascent for the time) but, rightly or wrongly, the niggling or more serious doubts about many other routes will probably remain.

It seems that for many years Rowland and Mark's perception was that they were "big fish in a small pond" and their consequent arrogance led them to believe that they could act however they saw fit. I know that their actions are not only disparaged by a few "LOCAL CLIMBERS": there are a lot of climbers, some equally or more talented - if that matters - from further afield who have been very uncomfortable with the state of affairs in Cornwall.

I regret to say that whenever I read in a guidebook that a route was first climbed by Mark and/or Rowland my immediate and almost subconscious reaction is one of cynicism and a suspension of belief, even on long-established routes. I note that Mark has his apologists and supporters but even if their evidence/beliefs prove to be correct in relation to certain events I think it unlikely that I will ever accept unquestioningly all of the Edwards' claimed routes. I don't see how any guidebook writer can now produce a definitive guide for West Cornwall with any confidence, and that really is a shame.

In reply to M. Edwards:

Wow Mark, even Max Clifford can't help you now. The Public Opinion-o-meter has just dropped to the the red and started going Beep.

Congratulations on posting the nastiest, most childish and most foolish post ever seen on UKC, and making it very difficult for anybody to defend you.

In reply to JimR:

True, but all I can say is it wasn't chipped when I climbed it. And that´s a time old saying so many generations of climbers have said.... But for me its the truth, and I know I can live with myself knowing I climbed that route without resorting to manufacturing holds out of the rock. I have, since climbing with Jim, done a direct finish to it. Instead of stepping left to the bottomless crack. That's really thin! And feels even bolder on the lead...but really good climbing, Not claimed it though, like so many others around the coast down there. I just got fed up with it all.

In reply to Tdubs:

When you throw crap at someone, don´t be shocked that some may fly back at your face.

In reply to M. Edwards:

I really gotta go now. The bad weather has finally broke. Tomorrow looks a good forecast. So I´m going climbing, got a five pitch fully equipped brand new route to climb, on a 200m crag that has no other routes. I´ll post some photos so you have the proof...

Bye!

In reply to M. Edwards:
When somebody gives you advice, listen to it. Course, you can afford to ignore it because you know better than me how to maintain a positive public image. Oh wait...

In reply to royal:

I disagree with the general opinion that this thread has been a car crash, or at least an unmitigated car crash. There have been a few things we could do without certainly, but on the narrow question of Red Rose there's been a fair amount of new information which I find interesting, and which, like most new information, raises a whole lot more questions which I also find interesting. Now unfortunately Mark doesn't seem inclined to answer many of those questions, but still.

Assuming we accept that each of Paul Craggs, Glyn Davies and Andy Newton is correct in the recollections posted, then, the timeline is the following.

In 1989 Paul C abseils down the route. No chipping observed.

The next day Mark E makes the first ascent.

A few days later Glyn D does a photoshoot of Mark E. No damage observed. Photos are taken, which GD has not produced (beyond the ones which appeared in the mags at the time, which presumably aren't conclusive as otherwise I don't suppose this controversy would be going on).

Shortly after that, the chipping appears.

Shortly after that, Andy Newton appears, is the first person to observe the chipping, and chops/flattens the bolts.

Shortly after that (ten days in all since the first ascent) Paul Craggs abseils down again - and observes chipping and bolts smashed.

A year then passes, during which, if AN and PC do tell anyone what they've seen, it doesn't get back to Mark E and nor does he notice anything untoward when he visits Sennen, if he does.

Chris Hamper and Andy Pollitt then arrive and notice the chipping and smashed bolts. Mark E blames 'local climbers' and is told shortly afterwards by someone unidentified that they know who did it but that ME mustn't tell anyone.

(as I understand, anyway), 21 years then pass before Paul C's and Glyn D's stories are told to the world.

I think that's quite an interesting narrative. There are some questions I'd like to ask quite a few of the people concerned, certainly, but still, it's a more detailed timetable than I've seen before.

jcm

I think

In reply to Brian H:

>It seems that for many years Rowland and Mark's perception was that they were "big fish in a small pond" and their consequent arrogance led them to believe that they could act however they saw fit

To be fair, this is Mark's stated position - that the little people shouldn't be allowed to criticise great climbers like him, that is; he has repeated it on here on many occasions in case his actions and refusal to apologise for them didn't speak loudly enough to that belief already.

jcm

In reply to Tdubs:

Don't patronise. It adds nothing to the debate. Try to keep it above the level of a kangaroo court so that neutral observers - and I'm sure there are many - can make up their own mind. At the moment NO ONE is coming out of this whiter than white.

In reply to Pete_Robinson:

It would be helpful if this debate could try to separate the climbing related facts from the character analysis.

It takes a very special kind of person not to come out with that sort of outburst under intense provocation.It would be helpful if we all tried to see through that.

In reply to royal:

I have avoided posting on this unpleasant thread so far - but here goes. In about 1988 I spent a month in Cornwall climbing with Binky and Mike Owen. With Mike I did routes like Evil Eye, Atlantic Ocean Wall and Burning Gold.
Mike wanted to do 29 Palms at Sennen. We called at the cafe and Mark lent us the four peg runners requires (stainless Peck ones) and briefly described the crux sequence (a long layaway move). I abbed down to place the pegs to find four drilled slots (for the pegs) and two subtly improved holds (a layayway and a blunt rib) where the drill-tip marks were clearly visible - it looked like these made the crux sequence viable.
Oddly I can't recall whether Mike did the route though my memory of the rest of this is still quite lucid.


Chris

In reply to GrahamD:

Graham, I completely agree. If Mark lost it last night, then who the hell wouldn't? There's only so much that any of us can take.

Probably the best thing that could happen today is that Mark gets out in the sun and does his new route. (And, pray the gods, I get mine done too!) And we all stand back a little. Because the damage level is getting dangerous.

If there is some kind of rational resolution of all this, it will only come about through someone like John Cox forensically analysing stuff. For me and probably for most of us, it's brain frying stuff. It's as though you've stumbled into a wilderness of mirrors and you don't know whether you're coming or going.

It's going to have to take such forensic analysis (which may take a lot of time, tracking people down, sifting through stuff etc) or the protagonists reluctantly sake hands and simply agree to disagree.

But people throwing shit from the sidelines doesn't help. It's like rubbing dirt in a septic sore. So please don't.

Mick

P.S. [To Mark] I didn't know that William belayed you on Rewind. I can't describe the emotions I have over that. He was so proud of you.

In reply to Anonymous:

I think whoever chipped the holds on all these routes is less moral-bankrupt than some one who would stick the knife into an already-down man anonymously. There appears to be quite a strong case 'against' Mark, if you (that's a collective you, not just you) believe it enough to risk his eternal reputation by publicly slating him, then surely you believe it enough to risk your own reputation in condemning him?

franco

In reply to HanniganD:

I was out last night (at the BMC Peak Area Meeting) when this latest set of exchanges took place.

I have just been through and removed the nastier posts that were made last night - please can we keep those off the thread.

I must admit that I am unsure exactly what to do in this case. I tend to agree with JCM that some interesting details are appearing as they did the last time this issue got raised on here, however there is also a degree of going around in circles which is inevitable.

Contrary to your comment higher up Des, this is a moderated forum and we do take our moderation duties very seriously. The interest in this thread, which has now reached almost all the main players in the saga (just waiting for Andy Pollitt to reappear from the Outback now!) is justification itself for leaving it in place, however, when we reach the point that nothing more useful is being said then it would be time to close it.

I don't think we have got there yet but I will keep an eye. Please keep the abusive language off it since then not only will I have to close the thread, I might have to remove it from public record which would be a shame.

Alan

In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Thanks for that Alan. I had decided to withdraw from this thread on the grounds that it was degenerating into nasty mud-slinging and going round in ever decreasing circles. However, the broader issues concerning bolts, chipping routes and possible inaccurate reporting of routes are ones that concern us all.

The BMC have tried their level best to find a solution that appeals to the majority, I now appeal to all those (it must run into many thousands) who have experienced the delights of Penwith and Cornish climbing to respect the present initiative to keep these cliffs in as untampered state as possible.

There is a precedent for this: Gary Gibson, arguably the most prolific new router of all time and no stranger to controversy, placed bolts on many of his magnificent new routes on Lundy granite, but when opinion turned against him, returned and repeated many of those routes removing his own bolts in the process.

There can be few amongst those for whom discovering new crags and routes is central to their climbing aspirations who do not have a few skeletons rattling away in their closets, but at the end of the day it is the route not the individual that remains.

In reply to Alan James - UKC:


I think you have a moral duty to end this now toxic thread (the more measured posts about climbing matters are the exception), remove most of the detritus and archive the pertinent material about the climbing issues.

The pointless material may start up again on another thread, but at least there will be a break in the proceedings and a possible end to the negativity and the potential for damage to individuals. And I mean that in a very specific way.

I regret being drawn in earlier with my knockabout response to an unfounded allegation of my having assaulted a juvenile. I realise it may have contributed to a deterioration in subsequent recent responses and I'm sorry about that. I'm used to more robust jousting with fellow hacks.

I think also that you should definitely withdraw the libellous comments re. Sam Salmon. You are on seriously dangerous ground there.

Des Hannigan

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Can you recall how the conversations went about this route? Did ME say something along the lines of "here are the pegs you'll need to go in the slots I've drilled.." or was there no comment made before you did the route or when you presumably returned the pegs?

In reply to Removed User:

I don't know if Mike knew Mark, but he certainly knew to get the pegs from him - I have a vague recollection that they were numbered. We were stunned at the drilled slots (two hole close enough together for the rock in the middle to be missing, a perfect fit for the pegs), and at the drilled holds (very small and subtle - but obvious if you looked). It was the way that Mark described the moves that was the clincher - linking the two improved holds by a layaway and long reach. That's all I can recall.


Chris

In reply to Removed User:

Just to be clear; I don't think it's ever been in dispute (or indeed concealed) that the peg slots were drilled. A number of the Edwardses' routes from this period have drilled pegs - Rats in a Rage, for example. Mark maintains that this was in accordance with the ethics of the time (and/or that there hadn't been a specific BMC resolution against them), and to be fair I don't think any of them date from after the resolution of 1990 (?or so) which said there should be no bolts on Cornish granite sea cliffs (or whatever exactly it did say; I haven't looked it up just now).

This particular route had removable drilled pegs, which was not usual with the Edwardses routes (or any other routes for that matter). In fact I think it may be the only one, though I'm not sure. At about this time, I think, Mark wrote an article in one of the mags in which he declared his intention (or at least the fact that he was thinking about the possibility) of carrying on bolting but removing the bolts after his ascent. I forget exactly his reasoning for saying he was contemplating this. The phrase I remember is 'I've had my fun', meaning that he'd enjoyed doing the routes and that (for some reason which as I say I don't recall) he didn't need to leave the bolts behind. I think this article was connected with a route called Eat 'Em and Smile, whose name presumably told a story, but as I say I could be wrong about that.

It's possible this (ie drilling slots and then removing the pegs but supplying them to appropriate suitors of the route) was part of this notion. Otherwise I'm not very sure what determined whether the Edwardses would choose to place bolts or drilled pegs.

That article is probably quite an interesting historical guide to the controversy. If anyone happened to have it sufficiently to hand to post up a pdf it would be interesting.

Anyway, so far is not controversial. Of course the suggestion of chipped holds is different.

jcm

In reply to M. Edwards:

Just for completeness, it turns out mine was a third ascent- Shane Ohly did the second. It's bloody good. Brilliant moves, holds cleaned up after a bit of top roping. I have no reason to assume that it's chipped or drilled.

There are stunning hard routes down here. I am amazed by the lack of traffic. If Off the Mark at Robin's Rocks was in Pembroke it would be well-known and well-travelled (and probably on-sighted).

Lack of context there- comment was in reference to Son of Satan at Hella Point.

In reply to egg:

This intrigues me, egg...


... because I did Mastodon shortly after the first ascent - it was sometime towards the end of 1978, I think, but I haven't got my diary here to check - and can't recall it warranting such a grade. Indeed, I wouldn't have got up it if it had been that hard. Sorry for the slight digression...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



Chris wrote;
We were stunned [...] at the drilled holds (very small and subtle - but obvious if you looked). It was the way that Mark described the moves that was the clincher - linking the two improved holds by a layaway and long reach.



Sounds rather more than a 'suggestion' to me.

In reply to jon: hi jon, it was probably E5 + before the manufacturing for the first ascent,just like cool diamonds was probably E6 or more before it was chipped down to E5 , both of which are a long way from the E3 grade given to us.
egg

In reply to egg:

I must admit I'd always assumed it was natuaral and therefore never questioned it. Not that I can remember it now after all these years, other than it being a brillant route. So you're adding this to the list of mysteriously chipped routes?

In reply to jon:

So which climbs are currently on the list??

In reply to Vince McNally:

Currently?

In reply to jon:

Yeah you know, at the moment.

In reply to Vince McNally:

Yes, I know. But it has a sort of temporary slant to it - like a route could be on a list one day and then removed the next. Unfortunately, once a route is chipped, it remains chipped.

In reply to jon:

Well I suppose what I meant was, which routes involving Mark do we currently Know to have been chipped. Given that it could become clear that there are, as yet chipped routes we are un aware of.

In reply to Vince McNally:

Ah, unknown unknowns! Sorry, wasn't trying to be difficult... No, I don't know, I was simply registering my surprise at egg's assertion that Mastodon had been manufactured. Note that Mastodon is Rowland's route, not Mark's.

In reply to jon: Hi jon as you know recently i have been checking routes for the next cc guide and in the course of this have found widespread evidence of chipping or route manufacture on many climbs that have been claimed by Mark and Rowland Edwards for example every route in the Pellitras zawn area shows signs of manufacture some more extensive(very) than others, however none of it is consistant with holds simply breaking off as i said this is widespread and systematic, Pellitras is not an isolated example, as for Mastodon I obviously don,t have first hand knowledge of the chipping done as I wasn't living down here at the time and it is so long ago that the sea has air brushed the evidence away, however it is common knowledge amongst climbers living down here that the route was manufactured and there is a local anecdote that a friend of Sam salmon appeared at the crag and shouted down "hey Sam is that legal?" I don't know the veracity of this tale but it fits with everything else that i have seen and heard about the activities of Rowland and Mark, they have so far refused to provide credible answers to any of the questions i have asked them, Mark just resorts to insults and diversionary tactics when confronted with compelling evidence that he is guilty of the shameful misdeeds that have been purpetrated on the crags down here.The overwhelming evidence points stongly to them being the culprits and in the absence of any evidence of a phantom chipper as claimed by them it makes me think of a couple of puppies next to a pile of poo.
cheers egg

In reply to Mick Ward:
I was simply enqiring as to wether Rewind had been climbed in trad style as claimed? ie;- start at bottom with rack -place gear on lead as required- do not weight said gear - ascend route?
still havn't had an answer and don't understand why you think i should apologise for this question
I think if you properly read this thread you will find that i am a lot less vitriolic as some of the other protagonists i'm sure you know who i mean and in my defence for having some ire there are a lot of people who are upset by the vandalism perpetrated on our commonly held crags which are not the private property of any individuals and we don't want to lose access to them because of the activities of a couple of people who appear to think they are somehow above and beyond common consensus, it is a shame that someone with your years of experience would appear to be condoning these activities.
egg

In reply to M. Edwards:

I know Egbert Dozekal very well and have a great respect for him and know that he would not fabricate a statement perhaps you would be good enough to post his contribution , i will also ask him about it next time he is over
however you, Andrea van der witt who i believe you initially claimed was your partner on the first ascent (not Egbert) and Egbert were as far as i know the only people who knew of this routes existance prior to your article in the climbing magazine, the photos of which show exactly the same extent of chipping that i saw and photographed when i shunted the route shortly after the Nic sellars ascent.
So who else knew of the route before it was chipped , I could not imagine that egbert would do it, if you know of anyone else who knew of this route prior to the chipping we would probably have the phantom chipper identified, how come you didn't notice or mention this chipping when you did the second ascent also photographed , these are simply questions no need for any insults, what do you mean when you say i only live a mile and a half from it? come on Mark you know who really did it don't you?
egg

In reply to egg:


Re 'weigh said gear', well I doubt that Mark dogged it!

Re 'place gear on lead as required', I don't know. Obviously 'place gear on lead' is the exemplar of trad climbing (as is ground up.) Both of us know that, at or near the cutting edge, sacrifices to style are often made. That doesn't necessarily invalidate the ascent. We don't deny Siegfried Herford the first ascent of CB in 1914 'cos he did just about everything bar chip. It was cutting edge; he (as so many have afterwards) made concessions to style. Big deal. Obviously the ascentionist must be strictly honest.



I don't think you 'should'; I just think that it would be a good thing if you did. Calling Rewind 'a sport route using fixed trad gear' sounds like a wanky F6b+ where five bolts mysteriously get replaced by five threads and we have a dodgy E3 makeover. I gather that Rewind is somewhat more challenging than this. (One of the most dangerous routes ever done??)

In my view, an apology to Mark over this would not weaken your position in the slightest. But it's entirely your choice.



Totally agree. And, as per a previous thread on this, I entirely accept that you and your friends have suffered over this.



Believe me, I'm not condoning chipping, lying, etc, etc. All I'm asking is for Mark and Rowland to be treated as human beings, not pariahs. Whether innocent or guilty, throwing shit from the sidelines (which you haven't done but others have) doesn't help. Occasionally, it seems, your bitterness seeps through - and that's as understandable as Mark losing it, the other day. We're all human.

I fully accept that writing the historical section of the forthcoming guide must be an unmitigated nightmare. If I were in your boots, I'd solicit John Cox 'cos the bugger has exactly the forensic mind to sift through the evidence to the nth degree and possibly get to 'beyond all reasonable doubt'. This is no reflection upon your competence or fairness and you may well have already got to 'beyond all reasonable doubt'. (You probably have.) But I'd still ask John. (I've asked him for help in a similar (but easier!) project and he couldn't have been more forthcoming.) Just a suggestion.

This whole business has rumbled on for decades, to the detriment of all. I can't see that it's ever been bottomed. Surely we either need to bottom it or agree that it's bottomless, shake hands, agree to disagree and move on.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Quite

In reply to Mick Ward:
Hi mick i didn't call rewind a sport roue with trad gear i asked if that was the case because it obviously makes a difference and the current guide book description clearly states " reclimbed with traditional leader placed protection according to the first ascentionist" having seen the route myself, if this is true this would be by far the greatest climbing achievement by anyone in this country ever! indian face would pale in it's wake this is why the truth is important if we are to have a relevant historical record , anyhow i have just read your post and Des Hanigans and agree with both of you that its time for everyone to come to their own conclusions about this issue, hopefully as the strength of opinion about the vandalism is so overwhelmingly anti, it will discourage anyone phantom or otherwise from engaging in this sort of behavior again as it does our sport a great dis service. thank you for your comments
egg

In reply to egg:


This is what I really disagree with. People love 'coming up with their own conclusions', but more than 95% of people reading this thread do not have enough information about the issues and should remain utterly impartial. Why the need to decide whether Mark is guilty or innocent without any kind of conclusive evidence?

In reply to Iain Peters: Really good post! Well-written and fascinating.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Well said and as with many others on UKC I've tried to remain impartial thinking it a well orchestrated UKC troll to get more site visitors... Surely some of the characters posting can't be real!!!
I have to to say that whatever truth (or not) there was in the original accusations against the Rowland's, the detractors venomous posts have not shown themselves in a good light AT ALL.
On the other hand Mark E has shown considerable restraint given the corrosive barrage of accusations and the petty childish language used. For this and and the many excellent rock routes and areas the Edward's have opened up they deserve credit not criticism.
I used to wonder why so many superb trad routes and whole areas in Echo Valley, Spain were either not fully listed or strangely graded with detracting comments like fluttery, chipped holds, loose etc. I'm now just beginning to understand why and this aspect of human nature on UKC disturbs me greatly. The term "witch hunt" is very apt.
Well I've tried a few of the easier Edward's routes and they turned out to be superb. Mark also turned out to be surprisingly helpful, friendly, great with clients and quite different to the witch or devil he has been portrayed as on this post...

Cheers Ron

In reply to Ron Walker:
It's hard not to have an opinion isn't it?
Either the Edwards helped some of their routes into existence,
Or person(s) unknown vandalised these routes in between the first and second ascents.
Or ... what?

Which do you mean? By far the meanest-spirited posts, at least one of which has been removed, were posted by Mark Edwards.

Well if they're clients, he'd be daft not to be helpful and friendly, wouldn't he?

As stated elsewhere, good luck to the guidebook writers.

In reply to edwardwoodward:
As stated elsewhere, good luck to the guidebook writers

Thanks Ed (Head) shouldn't you be in bed?

In reply to edwardwoodward:


Somewhere in between ? I'd be very surprised if this was entirely black and white. You know, good and bad on all sides ?

In reply to GrahamD:

But that's the thing about Red Rose at least, isn't it?

Everyone seems to agree that it was about E6 in the state Pollitt/Hamper found it in. Either you believe ME chipped it down to that level and then claimed it at E8 7c - and presumably always planned to claim it had been chipped by others - or you believe someone vandalised it. I don't really see a middle way.

Similarly, someone drilled the bolt holes on Question Mark half-way up and at the top. Either the Edwardses did it and didn't declare the bolt en route (I believe they deny this but eventually admitted they did install a bolt above it to facilitate top-rope practice), or someone else did it to frame them. I don't see any real alternative.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I'm not arguing that the individual cases have to be black and white - its the extrapolation to an overall picture I'm uneasy with. According to some, if someone did something wrong (deemed 'wrong' in retrospect) or ill advised on one route then every route they did gets tarred the same way.

The bolting issue seems to be more about where you are than the act itself. To me Cornwall isn't any different to Tunnel Walls or Swanage except that at these places someone got away with it. (I hadn't realised that Question Mark had been drilled - I can't remember it being mentioned by subsequent ascensionists but I probably just missed it)

More serious to me would be the accusation of regular chipping. In my naivity I hadn't realised that this was also common practice to those who have a continental outlook onrock or to sport climbers who will - when pushed - readily admit to "smoothing" (AKS chipping).

So question is - are these 'misdemeanours' really so far outside the boundries of what has been practiced with apparent impunity by others or is it a witch hunt ? I really don't know.

In reply to GrahamD:

The Tunnel wall hasn't been chipped, only bolted. Outside of the Angus quarries I can't think of a single route I've climbed or know of in Scotland or the North of England that's been chipped.

Chipping may be the done thing on Euro sports routes (although I doubt it) but certainly isn't the done thing in the UK.

So to answer your question, yes chipping is far outside the boundaries of what has been practiced with apparent impunity.

In reply to Removed User:

In the UK its called "smoothing". According to the protagonists on a thread a while back, its very normal to smooth (improve, render more useable - take your pick)holds in this country. It surprised me.

In reply to Removed User:

>"Outside of the Angus quarries I can't think of a single route I've climbed or know of in Scotland or the North of England that's been chipped"

The North Berwick Law sport routes look a bit iffy... I've always understood them to have been chipped.

In reply to GrahamD: haha, ley quarry

In reply to Removed User:

There was once historical chipping aplenty in Yorkshire, and to a lesser extent in Northumberland, but this is quite rightly regarded as completely misguided now, and I seem to remember the current Northumberland guidebook saying things to the effect that "some routes have been reported on this face but they will not be described due to the use of manufactured holds".

In reply to GrahamD:
"So question is - are these 'misdemeanours' really so far outside the boundaries of what has been practiced with apparent impunity by others or is it a witch hunt? I really don't know"


Graham: this is an old chestnut; the idea that bolting in Cornwall was just part of what was going on in the rest of the country etc. Or that drilling Cornish sea cliffs was all just an 'occasional' lapse by noble and elite activists who were head and shoulders above a few local gurners, jealous witch hunters and the "mindless mob with a 'club' mentality." (I think the local club had about 12 members when I joined. Hardly a 'mob'. There was simply not a large climbing community. Not the fault of locals! The Cornish prefer seagoing action.)

There are those who would burn you at the crossroads, Graham, for suggesting that West Penwith overall - "that magical, ethereal place" - as praised so emotively in a previous post - equates to nothing more than Swanage. Swanage!!! (Wherezat pile o' choss?) Tell that to the Cornish tourist authorities and you'll end up in court. Tell that to the Kernow nationalists and you'll wake up with your head bouncing around several feet away with a pasty in your mouth. But I acknowledge your point.

Now, I apologise to those who think that the devil in the detail is mind numbingly boring, but this thread is at least now keeping to the climbing issues. People continue to seek clarification. So brace yourselves...

The issue of bolting and chipping in Cornwall is unique, compared with the rest of the UK. The whole sorry tale started in the 1980s when unilateral bolting in West Penwith was becoming widespread and getting out of control. This was not happening in Pembroke for instance. It was the responsibility of two climbers working together during the 1980s and early 1990s. They placed approximately 130 plus bolts on 43 climbs on 18 cliffs including Mennen and Chair Ladder. Other individuals placed (Approx. two to three bolts during this period). This was not happening in similar traditional climbing areas.

KC has a detailed list of those bolt placements, although I warn you, the main bolt placers have described the list as being ' lies, untruths and innuendoes'. All these bolt placements are recorded in the Climber's Club guidebooks of 2000.

The 'damage to the rock' issue (I'm trying to pick my words carefully, you'll notice) in Cornwall, started in 1986 at Carn Boel (page 29, CC West Cornwall Guide, South Coast, 2000) on a rough old granite cliff next to Immaculate Crack. Several routes were 'cleaned vigorously'. One protection bolt and a drilled thread were established and two belay bolts were also placed. (Believe me, I'm yawning more than most, but it is a key point if you are curious about the objective details of the Cornish controversy rather than the soap opera.) There was huge unease among the tiny handful of local climbers that "the line between cleaning loose rock and deliberate hold improvement had been crossed" (CC Guidebook, 2000). (Ironically, some locals thought that only wicked climbers from outside Cornwall could possibly be responsible and approached the actual bolt placers to enlist their help in exposing those culprits! You really couldn't make it up...)

Word soon got out and climbers outside Cornwall began to take note of what was going on. The late, great Nat Allen and I were quoted in The Observer newspaper's sport' pages. (The Observer!!! Hell! That took it out of witch-burning country surely?) We were responding to a hopelessly one-sided previous article in The Observer about 'safety bolts' and 'environmental bolts' that the Cornish bolt placers were trying to promote.

With reference to these 'cleaned' Carn Boel climbs (Total Eclipse etc.) The Observer reported Nat Allen quoting a famous comment by Don Whillans about similar cases of heavy-handed 'cleaning/chipping', by saying that the Carn Boel wall was 'ready for pointing'. Those responsible for the mess claimed the scars were caused by rough seas throwing boulders onto the cliff face. The scarring was featured at least 80 feet up the cliff. Big seas; big boulders.

From that key event all those years ago, the Cornish controversy' started on its dreary way. As the guidebook writer for the Climbers' Club I was accused immediately, by those responsible for the bolting and scarring, of launching a 'vendetta' and a 'personal attack'. All it was, frankly, was perfectly reasonable criticism that was shared by many others from outside Cornwall, not least a climber of Nat Allen's stature. The rest is dismal history.

This may be 'in the past'and 'best forgotten' as far as many people are concerned, but it is crucial to a broader view of the Cornish controversy and to the integrity of the Cornish cliffs and Cornish climbing; unless it is all just left to suppurate in tit for tat claims and counterclaims, silly allegations and nasty libels about individuals' private lives? If none of it matters then you can forget all about the truth and just re-write history in a Soviet-style revisionist take on Cornish climbing.

I cannot stress enough Graham, that the 'witch hunt', 'vendetta' nonsense that outsiders with no experience of the realities still drone on about today, is unmitigated tripe. Of course, there soon developed mutually stupid and often overheated comments and allegations, (try joining your local rose growers' club and watch out for blood and guts all over the roses). But the 'witch hunt' propaganda was nothing more than a bid to divert attention from incidents of bolting and chipping that were becoming widespread practice rather than just being occasional 'misdemeanours'. The sport bolting of Carn Vellan was the inevitable escalation of all of this.

I hope this clarifies some of your questions, about the issues rather than the soap opera.

Hell! I could write a book about all this yawnery. Any more of it and I'll be charging professional fees to UKC. Fortunately I can whack it out in quick time, but I'm off back to what I get paid for.

Des Hannigan

In reply to Jon Cox and Graham D

For information: re Question Mark, at Cribba Head (page 169, CC West Cornwall Guide, South Coast, 2000).

Jon; Question Mark had two bolt placements drilled on top of the cliff. They were used to 'save time' during repeated top rope practice of the route. Two bolt placements were drilled on the other side of the arete of Nick Dixon's Pre-Marital Tension, (Dixon had nothing whatsoever to do with this) on a route called Pre Marital Tension Right-Hand. One of these was used for a bolt runner. Each one of these placements was drilled by Mark Edwards. (I hope I won't be screamingly accused of conducting a 'witch hunt' by stating these facts. They are recorded in the West Penwith guidebooks.)

For interest:
The bolts at Cribba Head were placed after the infamously mis-recorded 'No bolts on Cornish Granite' BMC meeting that has been repeatedly used as justification for the bolting of 'non granite' Carn Vellan. The fact that Cribba Head is one of the finest granite features on the Cornish coast says something about the Byzantine twists and turns and glaring contradictions of the Cornish controversy. Are climbers who oppose the drilling of truly beautiful places like Cribba Head to be condemned as 'witch hunters' or insulted as "those who waste their lives in ignorant aggression"? I don't think so...


Des Hannigan

In reply to Removed User:

The notion that Euro sport crags are littered with manufactured horrors is nonsense, at least in my experience. There are some famous examples however but they are exactly that, well-known and I don't think without controversy. Sometimes these holds make a route (uber-classic) so arguably they are 'justified' (very subjective idea I appreciate).

Another thing worth bearing in mind is that continental limestone can feature very sharp / thin incut holds that we just don't have in the UK. It's another judgement question but I can totally see the rational for removing the worst offenders.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Is that not the problem i.e. it should be simple to resolve?

One of the first things would surely be for Mark to answer the questions that have been put to him. He seems, despite repeated requests, to be unwilling to do so.

I don't get how Rowland and Mark can stand by and let their names be associated with the situations described; why not, once and for all, sit down with all those involved to to discuss and resolve all issues?

It's not that it's bottomless, it's just never been properly dealt with. It's virtually impossible not to draw conclusions about why this is.

In reply to HanniganD: Swanage!!! (Wherezat pile o' choss?)
Steady On don't dis Swanage there might be the odd loose block but thats all part of the adventure. Isn't Swanage part of the Heritage coastline so maybe we should join forces with Kernow and ban bolting there too.

In reply to Mark Lloyd:

My reason for mentioning Swanage is because, as you say, it is beatiful piece of unspoilt coast but one on which, for some reason, a prominent local activist has got away with pretty large scale bolting. I was curious as to why one person gets away with it whilst others don't.

To be more blunt, has Mark Edwards done anything significantly different to Pete Oxley ? again, I don't know but it would be useful to outsiders to understand whether this sort of thing is isolated to one person in one place or its actually a wider issue in climbing.

In reply to HanniganD:

Thanks for the long reply, firstly I'm not trying to act as apologist for people who damage rock (including bolting, chipping and new pegs)- but sadly I'm no further into understanding how these events in Cornwall compare with apparently similar events in other parts of the country (see post above).

For all that locals say that Cornwall is somehow different, I don't see it - our coastline is beautiful pretty much all round.

In reply to GrahamD:

Graham; one answer may be that there was already, in Cornwall at least, an understanding that bolts were unacceptable. I was living and climbing in Penwith in 1966, when Pete Biven made his final significant FA on the Main Face at Bosigran. Beowulf, placing a number of bolts. I remember clearly reading his description, along with a number of the main activists, and beside each mention of a bolt someone had added the words "A bolt? Another bolt? Not another bolt?" Pete was furious, accusing me (unfairly) in a long and vitriolic letter of making snide comments, and having neither the experience nor the skill to question how a route should be climbed. He was the uncrowned "king" of the Penwith castle, or The Bos(s) of Bosigran, you might say, but with young former acolytes such as Frank Cannings and Pat Littlejohn about to fulfil their own dreams of liberation in the Great Zawn and elsewhere.

The point of this historic aside is that virtually every climber competent enough to repeat Beowulf believed that the bolts were a mistake and inappropriate on Cornish granite. Pete may have recognized this when he gave the route the strange grade of HVS 5c in his 1968 guide. They were soon removed without any apparent dissent.

West Penwith might be out of the mainstream as regards proximity to the major cities of the Midlands and the North, but the for over a century it has proved itself as a forcing ground for adventurous routes throughout the grades.

Without doubt, many of Mark's and Rowland's routes are superb, committing adventures in every sense of the word, but I, and many others, feel that the unilateral decision to place bolts where they considered them to be necessary, without consultation and with little regard for local tradition was insensitive to say the least. I still believe that the majority of the climbing community support the principle of not placing bolts on the Cornish seacliffs.

As to alterations of the rock, glueing holds and manufacturing cam placements might well be welcome in Parasella's Cave or on other limestone crags both in the UK and on the Continent, but not on Cloggy or Stanage methinks.

We climb using often arbitrary, sometimes anachronistic but always unwritten rules. There's no real logic as to why granite and greenstone are more sacred than say limestone, but by and large we stick to them.

This unsavoury controversy has been running for at least two decades, and only Jack the Chipper (or Jill? There's a thought!) knows who is responsible and he/she/they ain't saying. I say move on and "kids leave them walls alone!"

In reply to ksjs:
I agree. There are some European sport venues where, on occasion and in the past, it has been, to a degree, acceptable to place extra holds - some of the climbs in the Zillertal are good examples. However, this practice was short lived and most of these routes have now been re-ascended with offending holds removed, or are now projects.

There are some places where hold 'comfortizing' takes place; typically to reduce sharpness. I know there are some climbs in El Potrero in Mexico that have been altered in this way. Even there it is controversial.

I don't want to comment on the Cornish debate, mainly because I'm from South Devon! However, I would like to say that practices in one part of the world are irrelevant to those in other parts of the world. Ethics vary from place to place, and I think most climbers are alive to respected these local variations.

In reply to Mark Lloyd:

Mark, I was being ironic and light-hearted. Of course the Swanage area is every bit as beautiful as any coast. I was talking about coastlines in general, which is perhaps a key point in this debate. The coast and the cliffs are a more important aspect of things than just the climbs or the climbers, in my view. It amazes me that climbers happily discuss drilling cliffs as if they own them. And I'm not talking about the so-called 'ownership rights' of landowners. I believe that landscape is universally 'owned' by everyone, but with that 'ownership' comes an absolute duty to respect the landscape and views of others on how we exploit the landscape, whether it's sea cliffs or mountains, or William Blake's 'green and pleasant land'. Climbers, walkers, anglers, everyone, have every right to enjoy wild coasts and cliffs, but within reasonable limits of intrusion.

And, I happen to think that even desolate industrial areas have a certain beauty.

In reply to GrahamD:

Graham; it would not enter my mind that you were "trying to act as apologist for people who damage rock".

If you extend this debate to Pete Oxley, however, you're opening an entirely different field of 'discuss and dissect.' I met Oxley once. A big boy. I think we agreed to differ...

I'll throw in Pembroke as a compare and contrast item with West Cornwall.

However, if you think that 'all cliffs are equal', I really would argue that some are more equal than others when it comes to the drill.

In reply to HanniganD:

>Two bolt placements were drilled on the other side of the arete of Nick Dixon's Pre-Marital Tension, (Dixon had nothing whatsoever to do with this) on a route called Pre Marital Tension Right-Hand. One of these was used for a bolt runner. Each one of these placements was drilled by Mark Edwards.

Sorry, you remind me that the bolts en route were on PMTRH as you say and not QM.

Has ME come out and said he drilled these and the QM top-rope bolts, then? I thought he'd admitted to the latter but not the former.

I was a bit surprised you date the start of this to Carn Boel, since personally I thought the first real fuss was about Demolition, though obviously some local complaints go back even further than that. Humour me, who was the 'second ascentionist' of Demolition you mention in your intro to the 1990 guide?

I must say I don't think it's necessary to argue that Cornwall is in some way special in order to show the difference between that and Swanage: in the former case it was overwhelmingly clear from an early stage that an overwhelming majority of local climbers didn't want the Cornish cliffs drilled, whereas in Swanage it was equally clear that at least a very substantial minority did. I also think Pembroke's pretty comparable - another beautiful sea-cliff area with a single wannabe operating out of control and against the wishes of a vast majority of local climbers. The difference was that there were more talented locals in Pembroke than Cornwall and they embarrassed the wannabe by doing his routes without bolts.

I still think it would be interesting if those with evidence about Red Rose gave it and answered the obvious questions, but evidently they aren't going to. It's such a fascinating little poser; it's clear that someone has behaved unthinkably, and it's just about possible to construct convincing psychological narratives on either side...

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
jcm or others, forgive my ignorance but what actually is the state and status of Red Rose now? I see it's not in the ukc logbook.
Am I right in thinking it's had just 2 "ascents", both by Mark Edwards, one of these being the claimed E8 7c first ascent (bolted) and the other (unbolted? E6 6b?) after "repairing damage"?
Is it now universally disregarded as a route?
What would it take for it to be rehabilitated?
Anyone else been on it?
Anyone got any photographs?

And out of curiosity, were the bolt hangers on this coloured? In my memory they were purple (or at least the first one was).