UKC

For those desperate to get hanging on axes I have been adding some new routes to the Ibex Wall in Dinorwig. Hopefully its now a decent winter training venue. I'm not that sure about the grades so any feedback welcome.

At around M6+ Monkey-Bar Kid is the warm-up/easy route that both Ibex and Deerhunter were intended to be. The Deerhunter (M7?) is pumpy route with a great crux sequence, more sustained than Ibex but easier to onsight as the hooks are all deep and easy to see. Ibex Direct (M8?) has a bouldery start across and out of the tunnel linking into the slightly sketchy left-hand footholds of Ibex, so far I've only top roped this but I'm happy for anyone to jump on it and go the first ascent. A Bambi/Ibex link up should also now be possible. The left-hand corner is a project I'm working on with Rhys Huws, it with hopefully climb with few (if any) driled hooks and is really techy and tenuous, potentially the best route on the wall. There is room for another line between Bambi and The Deerhunter.

For those who don't know the wall stays dry and sheltered in most conditions except a N or NW wind. All the routes have 4-6 bolts plus lower-offs and can be climbed with a 30m rope. The lower-offs can't really be reached from above without abseiling over loose, sharp slate, top-ropes are easier to set up by clip-sticking from the ground up. There is also the quarryman's clip stick lying around that will reach the first bolts.

Full descriptions below and on the Slate Wiki.

The Deerhunter M7?

Start in the short corner to the left of the tunnel. Fairly straight-forward but sustained climbing leads to a more technical and powerful crux between the last two bolts including a dry-tool take on the slate high-step. Take a quick draw for the chains as the in-situ locking 'biner is hard to open with one hand. 6 bolts FA Torquil Bennett 9/10/11

Ibex Direct M8 ?

Tunnel start - two meters inside the tunnel on the left there is a small ledge for your feet and a drilled side pull, start here then lock off and swing over the roof on a large thread hole. Side pulls and steinpulls take you out of the tunnel to the lower shot-hole.

Powerful moves from the shot-hole bring you out onto the wall, pull your way past two good hooks until you reach the marginal left-hand footholds of Ibex. Follow these up and join Ibex between the 4th and 5th bolt. No new holds were needed after the initial two hooks so Ibex remains the same. 6 bolts.

Monkey-Bar Kid M6+

Start on the ledge to the left of The Deerhunter. Good hooks, no big reaches, few hand changes and close bolts make this about as easy as a route on this wall will get. Cunning axe-work will even reward you with a hands free rest when you're standing in the shot-hole. 6 bolts. FA Torquil Bennett 6/12/11

In reply to torquil: video of ibex youtube.com/watch?v=kDEonYG5k28&

In reply to torquil:
fantastic piece of aid climbing on dodgy sky hooks - sums up everything that is wrong with dry tooling

In reply to Andy Kassyk:


Oh, the rather tiresome and silly old joke about ice climbing too. Drytooling might be silly and contrived, but hanging off an ice tool is nothing like sitting on sky hook, regardless of what the ice tool is in.

If people are really trying to "aid climb" by hanging onto skyhooks by their hands, I think they need to really go away and read a beginners guide to aid climbing!

In reply to torquil:
good job torquil, great venue, fantastic routes. keep it up.

In reply to torquil:

Great great job, are these all "drilled" holds?

In reply to torquil:

Awesome, can't wait to get myself there. Great training for my winter projects

What this bloke on about aid climbing? I don't understand. Venues like this is where I trained for the world cup and do Wi6. I think he come out of cave or sumethin

In reply to Scarab:

I was just going ask this!

Is it acceptable in a place where it's quarried, wet & mossy and there is no rock climbing?

Just wondering!

In reply to Ramon Marin:

I think he is saying how the activity appears to the uninitiated - which is that it looks like aid climbing with very arbitary 'rules'.

This was illustrated to me when I asked why can't you just use axes that reach the good hold and the answer was that "you simply don't understand". This is absolutely true and it will remain true whilst the officianados can't articulate WTF its all about.

In reply to TobyA:

- silly old joke about ice climbing -

I never said anything about ice climbing. That's what ice axes were designed for. Not for rock climbing, which is what this is. Sorry if this upsets the dry toolers, but it needs to be said.

And as regards aid, if you use a device to hang onto the rock, rather than your fingers, then that's aid in my book

In reply to Ramon Marin: Dry Toolers are exactly that - Tools!

In reply to torquil: Hi mate, I'm heading to wales to live in a couple weeks, if you are free any time to show me the routes i'd be happy to come hold your ropes.

Drop me an email

Regards,

Anthony

Nice one Torquil, good to have some other additions in there. And a bit closer than White goods eh?

For those having a go, give it a rest. These are dedicated routes up predominantly unclimbable rock, in a quarry........

You'll also find most 'drytoolers' are summer climbers and also winter climbers so leave off the labelling will ya. Nic

In reply to mynyddresident:

Hear Hear!

In reply to Andy Kassyk and Goucho:

No its not its drytooling.

>Sorry if this upsets the dry toolers, but it needs to be said.

why does it need to be said?

Dont be so short sighted as to think that just because you dont understand and/or appreciate a particular genre of climbing that you need to barge in and start slating (no pun intended) it.

It's been said before and will be repeated many more times that for anyone with aspirations to climb hard mixed, ice or compete in world cups (ala Ramon, Neil Gresham etc) then drytooling is the form of training required for this.

I dont get whats so hard to understand about that.

In reply to mynyddresident:

I for one am not 'having a go' (provided you don't cause damage of course). I'm just pointing out what it looks like to us uninitiated and to try to seek some explaination as to what the 'rules' are.

In reply to mynyddresident: The problem with Dry Tooling, is that for every 'one' responsible experienced climber, who understands the context, and where it should and shouldn't be practised, there will be 'two' wannabe noddy's, unable to differentiate between a dank, crappy pile of rotting choss, and Embankment Route 3 at Millstone - "It's a quarry isn't it!!!!"

And of course, they may take a look at the picture on Ramon Marin's profile - now that really does look like a grotty dank quarry doesn't it?????

No doubt within a year or so, there will be a thread on here, filled with hundreds of irate comments about someone Dry Tooling up Great Wall on Cloggy!

In reply to Goucho:

that should not limit what the rest of us "responsible" drytoolers (climbers) should do and it certainly isn't right that drytoolers should face comments from you like...."drytoolers are tools"

In reply to torquil:

And off it goes again...

Good work, you have equipped a suitable venue and shared its location. Too far away from me to be of any use but I am sure many will take pleasure from your work (and a few will take pleasure from ranting about it).

In the interests of safety is it time to use a code word on here, drytooling must be wrecking some knees with all the jerking they are doing!

I suggest we crag protecting instead, by developing these venues, this is what you are doing.

In reply to tom290483: Just seen the photo on your profile page - if you think that's acceptable, then I stand by my comment!

You can justify anything in your own self interest, if you spend enough time convincing yourself!

In reply to Goucho:

whats my profile pic got to do with it? Do you even know where that is? Have you visited the place?

In reply to tom290483: If there's nothing wrong with Dry Tooling, why so coy about the locations - yet again look at your profile page - why not name the crag???

In reply to torquil:

Oh a self righteous idiot in a dry tooling thread. I for one am shocked.

In reply to Goucho:

Ha ha! Those routes are listed on the UKC crag finder....

There is no secret, its Masson Lees and the DT routes there are in the cave at the back of the quarry.

Good to know your are making informed comments about a sport you clearly do not know.

I'm bored now, no doubt this will come up all over again many times this winter.

In reply to Kid Spatula: So being concerned about the damage dry tooling does, (and if you think it will only be done in disused quarries outside of mainstream climbing, then you're kidding yourself) makes me a self righteous idiot, then I'll live with that!

In reply to tom290483: Maybe if Dry 'Toolers' like you, could put together a coherent case for the point of it, people like me might put the effort into understanding it better.

But if the only case you can put forward, is that it's training for 'mixed' winter climbing, well I'm sorry, that's a bit flimsy.

In reply to torquil:

i hate go-karting.

stupid, pointless pastime. destructive and without any reason aside from the pure pleasure of ruining the world for others.

what if real drivers with real cars want to drive round the silly little artificial track?
fcuken selfish if you ask me. why cant they go somewhere else?
its ruining driving for the rest of us.

its not even real driving. with that big steering wheel and lowdown chassis, it shouldnt be allowed because its too easy. theres no skill in it and it makes a mess of the asphalt. it also attracts hoodlums with no interest in other forms of driving. they dont drive real cars as well you know.

i dont understand it and never intend to try it so it should be banned.

In reply to Andy Kassyk:

That's great then! With that ethic you can still go and do the first free ascents of all the classic Scottish mixed routes then, and indeed probably most of the great alpine faces as well!

In reply to ice.solo:

Very good

In reply to ice.solo: Without wishing to state the obvious, go-karting takes place on tracks specifically designed for the purpose - not public roads.

So if it was meant as a witty metaphor, it wasn't very good was it?

In reply to Goucho:


When a new sport or something like this evolves, the people involved are usually so positive that it their passion becomes contagious. Negative concepts, like engaging with sceptics is not usually on an agenda, after all it may prevent progress. These days of the internet does change the rules a bit though.

In the same way that it would be difficult to convert someone online to the pleasures of rock climbing, don’t expect that someone will easily change your view (or mine) on here.

However, I do recall from times out ice climbing when I came across rock sections, I often thought “this is quite fun’ These crampon things stand on amazingly small edges and the axes can be put in at some weird angles. Except for the Mick Fowler style routes, I never thought people would one day try whole routes in this style.

Even though I have not tried it myself, looking back it now seems obvious someone would one day.

In reply to Goucho:

And dry-tooling takes places at dank and dirty holes in the ground. Mixed climbing debates on the other hand, since that seems to be your main objection (e.g. those dudes at Millstone) has got a good argument on another thread that you should join... http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=484401

Enjoy

In reply to Goucho: Hey Grouchy,
You don't know the half of it! Not only did the author of this thread sell me some mono points but he hangs around in climbing shops trying to tempt people up there. Filth! Like a crack dealer outside a school. You could come over from wherever you live that makes you so angry and we could go a lynchin. There's a few of them over here. I could set them up and you could scythe em down

In reply to Bevans: Ha Ha Ha - like : - )

i've nothing against dry tooling as a branch of the sport, but just like covering your partner in whipped cream and celery sticks, there are places you should, and shouldn't do it!

In reply to Goucho:

It's a shithole of a quarry. why are you so precious about it or are you just trolling?

In reply to Goucho:

yes and no. i actually do hate go karting.

In reply to higherclimbingwales: i'm not precious about it in shitholes.

But call me an old cynic, but how long before they venture out onto proper crags - and don't tell me it won't happen - that's what I'm precious about!

In reply to Goucho:
You're an old cynic, please keep it to yourself. Torquil's routes are perfectly good additions and most climbers know where drytooling is and isn't appropriate. Can do without the tedious negativity of people who haven't even tried what they're moaning about.

In reply to Goucho:

You old cynic! of course it's not going to happen on proper crags, certainly not unless there's the white stuff on them!

In reply to torquil: Hi Torquil, was nice to meet you a few weeks ago whilst you were finishing the route that i assume is now deerhunter! does monkey bar kid go to left up the corner we were talking about at the time?? have u got any photos yet?

In reply to halfmanhalfbiscuit:

Do you have to try bashing an old lady on the head with a brick to know it's not the right thing to do!

All a nice little earner for gear companies though. Dry tools, sums it up really

To those complaining, I've just this minute heard that your blaming the wrong people. Apparently the FRENCH (typical striking surrender monkeys) have been drilling holds and bolting proper crags with hangy down icicle bits , manufacturing self indulgent and over the top ice axes (dry axes?) for exactly this purpose. I'm that angry I won't be eating Boursin on principle. Here lies your fight

anyone wondering why this can chipped be used for dry tooling:

this is overhanging blank slate.. slate is so smooth that it would be impossible to climb this without chipping it... also its in an out of the way area in an already massive man made quarry!

maybe the damage from dry tooling will one day result in classic trad routes like to old aid lines at millstone.. now perfect finger cracks

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
UKC is unbelievable. What kind of a retarded point is that supposed to be making?

'Do you have to try bashing an old lady on the head with a brick to know it's not the right thing to do!'

Implication - 'dry tooling is on a par with assaulting old women with bricks'.

Further implication - you have a very skewed sense of perspective.

In reply to halfmanhalfbiscuit:

I think you might find it was Bruce who made that implication, not UKC as UKC is not a singular entity!

In reply to higherclimbingwales:
Yes, I meant UKC is unbelievable in the way it seems to attract more than its fair share of 'Bruce Hookers'.

In reply to halfmanhalfbiscuit: thanks for the clarification. I am afraid this attraction is not unique to just these fora.

In reply to hooker and groucho:

on a more serious note...Britain now has some excellent venues where dry tooling takes place:

White Goods
Newtyle
Masson Lees
Dinorwig
Chalk cliffs

Your complaint appears to be in the possible future paths the sport can take (venue/rock type etc) but based on what has happened so far in drytooling (not mixed climbing.....drytooling, two very different pastimes), no harm has taken place.
Hopefully with the venues developed thus far people can understand what has been started here and chose suitably any new areas they chose to develop.
Lets me honest about it, if a crag isn't already claimed for free-climbing then chances are its a falling down pile of choss e.g. perfect for people like us! and just to re-assure you if i saw someone with axes at stanage i would be one of the first people to tell them to p*ss off.

In reply to torquil: These arguments seem to always surface when ever something new is tried by the next generation of climbers. Remember the moaning about the use of gymnastic chalk! The crying over people absail inspecting routes or practicing on top rope. The indignation boulders suffered when that first turned up, how pointless climbing a boulder was etc. or dare I say in the argument on fixed protection or in devil speak "sport climbing". The thing is people aide climbed hard routes that was the done thing, next came free climbing those routes while the aide climbers slagged off the tactics used. This goes back n forth.
The one thing that all of these "new" types of climbing do is progress some aspect of the sport to a new level. Without dry tooling some of the hardest hanging ice pillars couldn't be reached.
I agree we need to be responsible about where it's done which is why people should thank people for setting up dry tooling areas so people can use them and keep off the other climbing areas. So thank you

In reply to torquil:

It would e really good if the people took a bit of time to read what people post which is a request to explain the passtime to the uninitiated. Instead all I'm seeing is attack after attack on those asking.

CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN THE F*CKING RULES OF THE GAME, PLEASE ? just for us old luddites who really can't see what its about and to whom it does look like aid with arbitary tools. Please don't blather on about you can do it if you want to (within agreed areas where we agree that radically accelerated rock degradation is acceptable) ofcourse you can - just explain what it is and what its appeal is.

In reply to GrahamD:

Simple. You climb using the tools only. Grabbing holds with hands is usually not in, but holds are normally too small to do so anyway.

The appeal? It's like hard mixed climbing but without the need to clear snow before you use a placement. The technique, balance and strength required is very different to that of rock climbing. It is pumpier than rock climbing, and a large degree of faith in your placements is needed, along with a much smoother style so that your picks don't come flying of the placements.

Besides, it's a lot of fun! vimeo.com/32637414

In reply to Goucho:


I would wager enourmous amounts of money that will not happen.

In reply to Mr Lopez: So nothing like hard mixed climbing then - also, most of the photo's I've seen show pre-placed gear (usually bolts) as well, so that's really really like hard mixed climbing isn't it.

What you're really saying, is that it's sport climbing using ice axes - christ you lot must have a really low boredom threshold!

Still, as long as you keep it hidden away in your grotty slum crags, I suppose we have to respect your freedom.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: You're On!!!

In reply to Goucho:

You sound like Ken Wilson in relation to bolts.

Bolts never appeared on Left Wall or other Classics and folk won't drytool them either.

Stop worrying about a chossy bit of quarry.

Do you even live near North Wales?

I would wager enourmous amounts of money that will not happen.


it is a mountain crag, a thin bit of ice and i am top roping Indian Face, for a good dry tooling session, where is the harm in that ?

In reply to WILLS: The problem isn't the fact it's something new - every sport has to develop, and break the rules in order to do so, it's the 'wannabe noddy factor' that's the problem.

Lets take some of your points above.

Chalk - introduced for use at the highest level of the sport - now used on Diffs!!!!!
Abseil Inspection - again introduced as new standards were being set - now employed by people 'working' E1's which were climbed 50 years ago.
Sport Climbing/Bolts - introduced mainly as a concept to climb unpprotectable routes of a tremendous difficulty - now used on 15' boulders!!!!!!
Working/Headpoint etc - again developed in order to push the sport to new levels of difficulty - now universally employed on HVS's!!!!!

So while all these developments have undoubtably developed the sport tremendously at the highest level, the trickle down effect - in other words the 'wannabe noddy factor' has taken the sport backwards.

Dry Tooling will do exactly the same, but with far more potentially serious and damaging consequences.

In reply to Goucho:

Were it not for the knowledge that you could contrive an outcome, I would wager a three-fugure sum and be entirely confident of making a return.

Nothing that I have seen in the development of dry-tooling (a process that I've been close to if not directly involved in), suggests to me that teetering up E4 slabs with tools is the "way forward". If anything, the reason that we've seen the occasional misguided bit of crampon use on rock-climbing crags is that there have been few if any other options for those who have decided (rightly or wrongly) that this is good winter training.

Places like the Quadrocks and Earl Crag were getting vandalised 10-15 years ago; this is hardly a new phenomenom, although internet coverage of Calum Nicol's recent tw*t attack is. I've always maintained that tooling is only a worhwhile training method if you're pulling down on steep ground; the new generation of venues recognise this and give grade-pushers what they want. This should help anyone move away from naive notions about slab-teetering being in any way useful and save the rock theat matters.

In conclusion I think we'll see less crag-vandalism and not more in the years ahead.

In reply to torquil: here's a link to a topo of the wall. Thanks to Simon Panton of Ground Up.

http://news.v12outdoor.com/2011/12/07/monkey-bar-kid-m6-never-never-land/

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: I've had a few heated 'discussions' with Ken Wilson in the past (always stimulating, entertaining, and frustrating in equal measures!!!) and whilst he was entrenched in certain areas, he was always coming at things from the perspective of protecting the precious climbing environment of the UK, and wanting to keep things as natural as possible.

As he once said during a particularly heated discussion in a pub in Hathersage - 'whats wrong with leaving something for the next generation!'

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: The problem is, one man's 'dry tooling', is another man's 'mixed winter climbing' !

In reply to halfmanhalfbiscuit:

No, try brushing up your reading skills! I was replying to a poster who complained that people were against dry-tooling without even trying it... my example shows that when an activity is perceived in an obviously negative way then it is not really necessary to try it before forming an opinion.

Other examples: I don't need to actually chip a hold to be convinced that this is a "bad thing", or go to visit Israel to know it it is a nasty racist place. In none of these cases is it implied that the activities are similar.

In reply to gd303uk:


It would take pretty exceptional conditions for Great Wall to form enough ice to be climbable. But if it did then a winter ascent would be justified, although I don't think ther'd be a que for the lead.

Nobody would go there for a "dry-tooling session" on a top-rope. With the time factor of the walk-in, the hastle factor of getting to the top to rig a rope, and the fact that the rock is probably barely climbable with axes, you'd get a far more worhwhile and time-efficient session at White Goods!

In reply to Goucho:


If it's white, easier with axes than without, and in a mountain environment, it's winter climbing.

In reply to gd303uk: Why wait for ice a dusting of snow is ample.

In reply to torquil:
Would the 'Ibex wall' have been accepted if pockets had been drilled a la Paul Pritchard's Pocketeering and Satisfying Frank Bruno to create a pumpy and technical sport line?

What if I had placed some bolt on holds to create routes there as they do in Europe? Would this have ben as accepted as the dry tooling development has been?...I doubt it!

I've said it before about the first route that was put up here, Ibex clearly interferes with an existing trad line 'Rest in Petes Eats'.

I am all for the development of the quarries and though I have no interest in dry tooling or winter climbing I think that there are more obscure quarries that should and could be developed.

Hopefully those involved in developing these new Dry Tooling routes on North Wales Slate will consider very carefully where they develop next. As I've said above there are loads of quarries in North Wales to choose from which would be great to develop...

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Ian, yours has been the first bit of criticism that carries any weight whatsoever, as it actually comes from a position of knowledge. I hope it gets read and understood amongst all the dross.

In reply to Goucho:
your profile says you live in France, home to some of the hardest bolted mixed climbs in the world, have you heard of Jeff Mercier??? Have you ever been to the alps??!!

yes!!! it is sport climbing, often referred to as sport mixed! have a watch of this.....its france, its ice and rock and its got bolts.....

http://chupaprec-production.blogspot.com/2010/02/lou-monstraou-cest-raide.h...

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: I will refer you to the comment immediately below your post, from DavyB.

A dusting of snow is NOT winter conditions - but in some peoples mind????

As I said...one man's.......

In reply to Sl@te Head:

This wall is perfect for a dry tooling venue - it seeps quite badly so has little use as a rock climbing venue - if it stayed dry I wouldn't mind at all if somebody produced a Satisfying Frank Bruno type route.

There has always been experimentation in the quarries (for example: many classic routes were chipped) and one of the attractions is the diversity of styles on offer: everything from classic trad, neat clip ups to aid lines, big loose adventures and nowadays a handful of dry tooling routes on bits of rock that have little or no value to conventional rock climbing.

I think Torquil should be applauded for his efforts.

In reply to tom290483: Have I ever been to the Alps.....mmmm.....let me think!!!!! Oh yes, I started going before you were even a twinkle in your fathers eye!

And just because I live here (around 9 months of the year anyway) doesn't mean I'm part of, or remotely interested in developments in the French climbing scene.

Also, France has got about 100 times more rock than Britain.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

At what point do tools get modified specifically for climbing on rock and lose any pretention of being related to climbing ice ?

In reply to tom290483: Just watched the clip - superb, and very impressive - now that is what I call high-end 'mixed' winter climbing.

However, it bears about as much resemblance to 'dry tooling' in Britain, as the Wonderbra model does to Anne Widecombe!

Mixed climbing means 'ice' and 'rock'.

Using ice axes on pure rock, not in winter conditions, is 'mixed up' climbing.

In reply to Goucho:

Then why don't you just move there permenantly then? you are obviously disillusioned and scared of the new and exciting!

In reply to higherclimbingwales: So because I don't agree with one aspect of climbing, that makes me disillusioned and scared! - god you do come out with them don't you - I'll put it down to the over enthusiasm of youth.

And if sculking around in dank rotten quarries, like an old man in a mac outside a back alley porn shop, is 'exciting', then go for it!

In reply to Goucho: If you're struggling with this have a look at Greg Boswell's blog here: www.gregboswell.blogspot.com. If you scroll down through the posts you'll notice he's been doing a lot of dry tooling. Two days ago he onsighted Defenders of the Faith IX9 with Will Sim. The two things are associated. Almost everybody who is pushing climbing forward in winter at the moment is using dry tooling to train. Another good example was Korra Pesce and Jeff Mercier's recent free ascent of No Siesta on the Grande Jorasses, both are top end dry tooling climbers using the strength they've gained on a big mountain routes. Jeff's blog is here: www.jeffmercier.blogspot.com, if you scroll down you'll find both dry tooling indoors and out and the hard mountain routes the fitness has been applied to. It's exactly the same as the way the extensive use of climbing walls and sport climbing has pushed rock climbing standards forward. Give it a try, it's fun and might mean you can get up some inspiring things which you can't at the moment!

In reply to Kendal47: Thank you!

At last someone who has actually explained what it's about - training for proper mixed climbing.

Now I completely understand that - although, I stand by my reservations, that it is still potentially a Pandora's Box!

In reply to Simon Panton: Hi Simon

The message I'm trying to convey is that Dry Tooling development is a good thing (even though I'm not interested on a personal level)

It looks like this area is approaching being worked out, and obviously just as sport climbing accelerated to a rapid pace of development, I predict that so will the development of dry tooling routes on the slate.

It's a great thing for the local area that we can attract climbers to come and play and spend their money here whether they be trad, sport, boulderers or dry toolers...it's all fine by me (I don't expect my opinion to be any more valid than anyone elses it's just 'my opinion').

We both know that there are a load of obscure quarries that would be ripe for development as dry tooling venues which would have little or no interest for trad or sport climbers.

Long before the Ibex wall had been developed a few local climbers had discussed drilling holds and adding bolt on holds but we were beaten to it...though admittedly we may never have got round to it!

The acceptance of this development has given me and Chris Davies the green light for a whacky development we've been discussing for a couple of years....watch this space

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Hi Ian, thanks for the reply, I'm happy to have some sensible criticism as opposed to usual UKC spraying. And thanks for putting up the excellent new Twll Mawr routes.

Ibex may run close to Rest in Petes Eats (a loose scrappy route that is rarely climbed, it is in no-one logbook here) but i'm not sure how much it really interferes with it. That aside none of the other routes on the face interfere with anything. This wall is completely unclimable, even Johnny Dawes (master of getting up what others consider to be blank and unclimable) told me he reckoned he could maybe hang from the wall in 3 seperate spots only and they are all at least 5-10m apart from each other with seeping wet blankness inbetween.

I agree with you that there are other more obscure area of the quarries that are also approriate, however the Ibex wall I feel is an excellent addition to the quarries, providing an easy access, well sheltered winter training area for many local and visiting climbers. Perhaps it will even give winter climbers a better option when they are tempted to get on out of condition winter routes.

I'm not about to go drilling a route that could be climbed without, drytool or otherwise, in the same way that I imagine you wouldn't bolt up a possible trad route. All my routes choices have been carefully considered and I too hope others will do the same.

In reply to GrahamD:

...err? quite a while ago.

http://www.climbubu.com/Equipmnt/bb_mur01_i.htm

In reply to torquil:

Hi Torquil

I'm not really criticising the development at all, more trying to steer future development to other Quaries!

There are plenty to go at in Snowdonia, Moel Wnion, Rachub, Moel Tryfan, Nantlle and a few smaller holes near the Dinorwic Quarry itself (fachwen)+ a few holes on the Gideon side of things. I've looked at the development in Gideon and think it looks great!

Honestly keep up the good work....but do go for an explore (If you haven't already)

Ian

In reply to torquil: Before I ask this, I'd like to point out I'm pro dry tooling, although I've never tried it!

A couple of questions though:

Firstly, would this M6+ route be suitable for somebody like me, who has only dabbled in Winter climbing and never dry tooled before? If not, are there any easier alternatives in the slate quarries or even white goods?

Also, what happens with footwear? I'm assuming rockshoes are used, but I'd like to clarify. And finally, how much relevance does dry tooling on slate have to mixed climbing on Rhyolite? Surely the angle of the routes, friction, holds and lots of other things are a lot different, so is it really as beneficial as you'd think? Surely it's like training for a slabby slate route, on a steep grit route with slopers.

Mike

In reply to Sl@te Head: Ian, personally I would draw the line at bolt on holds. I look forward to seeing what you've got lined up with Chris, but I hope bolt ons are not on the cards.

As for the spread of dry tooling development - there are a few significant things that will limit this:

The lack of suitable bits of rock (i.e. steep, blank, of little/no interest to conventional rock climbers)

The amount of effort involved - far more than establishing a standard sport route.

The incoming winter conditions - as soon as it kicks off properly you won't see many people dry tooling in the quarries as they'll all be out on the Ladders/Clogwyn Du etc.

In reply to GrahamD:


Graham,

The rules were invented a long time ago, by like’s of O.G.Jones etc ca 1800.

http://marchill.net/adobe/Owen%20Glynne%20Jones/content/o%20g%20jones_2091_...

Ice Axes were part of the standard equipment. The originators of climbing would not have thought it cheating to use axes on rock routes!

Therefore Dry tooling can be seen as a return to original values of climbing.

Hope this helps?

Mit

In reply to Sl@te Head:


I agree with the first point, I think there is only room for one more route in the middle of this wall and then maybe some link-ups and variations but that's all.

One drilled line is very much like another (hook-pull-repeat) and these routes are more in the realm of training than real climbing. Natural drytool areas like White Goods are a completly different thing and far better, so unless appropriate areas in the quarries are found that can be climbed without drilling I don't think there will be that much more development.

If there are appropriate areas then they'll be a great addition to what is already an amazing climbing area, I'm sure if any inappropriate development took place that would be stopped pretty quickly.



????? I'm very curious.

In reply to Goucho:

Universally? Really? Over-egging somewhat I think. I don't know anyone that has headpointed HVS. But if they wanted to they could. And I wouldn't give a sh*t. And nor should you. So what if the grade is way below the top end and the challenge is reduced, that's their lookout.

In reply to metal arms: Your attitude typifies exactly what I mean - drag everything down to lowest common denominator.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

re. tooling on GW, Cloggy


You're right of course, that probably won't happen any time soon. Doesn't mean a rash of scratches and manufactured 'holds' isn't going to spread through the quarries over the coming years.

I've nothing much against dry tooling (besides a lack of interest in it) but it saddens me to see Dinorwic being set up as the sacrificial anode. Ah well

jk

In reply to Mike Nolan:


This route was meant to open up drytooling to more people. I'd say if you were happy on a F6b(ish) 25-30 degree overhanging juggy sport route then you would do okay. Top-rope to start and be aware of axes popping out and smashing you in the face , which is quite possible if you are not sure what you are doing (I wear safety glasses most of the time).


Monopoint crampons and leashless axes otherwise you wont get anywhere.

>And finally, how much relevance does dry tooling on slate have to mixed climbing on Rhyolite?

With the exception of the corner project, the relevance is mainly in the strength and endurance of pulling up on axes as you would on a steep ice or mixed route. The foot work/balance is also quite similar and suprisingly important. The marginal hooks on Ibex Direct are good training for pulling on bad hooks, i.e. keeping you hand still and pick angle perfect.

In reply to halfmanhalfbiscuit:


Perhaps fortunately, our dear old Brucey is wonderfully unique!

In reply to Simon Panton:
Ian wont be the first to add bolt-on holds, Ed Stone did it at the boulders heaven on the Orme in late 80's early 90's and fun it was to play around on them it added a variety to the bouldering to be had ...
some of the old studs are still there i remember.

the dry tooling looks fun ... who knows I might try to haul my self up one of the easier ones one day ....

In reply to Ian McNeill:
Hi Ian

Not planning on adding any bolt on holds, though a line of Beacon Pink and Black jugs would look surreal on the Rainbow Slab!!!

In reply to TobyA:

So are you! Never seen someone react to the mention of Israel being racist so quickly! Don't tell me you agree with chipping dry-tooling routes too?

The mind boggles!

And as for the person who, thinks this takes us back to old and true traditions of O G Jones!!!! Someone should remind him that climbing ethics have advanced a bit since the old days! The first recorded rock climb in Europe was when an army officer climbed Mont Aiguille at the orders of the king of France by nailing great logs all the way up in 1492. Anyone suggesting we should go back to that?

In reply to torquil:

This question sounds so ridiculous I'm almost ashamed to ask it, but here goes...

Am I right in thinking you sometimes drill the holds for the axes? Or chip them to use an alternative expression.

In reply to TheGeneralist: Looking at the video, I suppose the holes could have been made by a rare Welsh Slate Burrowing Worm, but to me it looks more like the work of the far more common Lesser Spotted Hilti!

However, we shouldn't be surprised - I doubt ethics are of any real concern to participants of this branch of the sport, and lets face it, the Dinorwig Quarry's have got more man made holes in them than 10 million tons of Jarelsberg cheese.

In reply to Goucho:
I'm absolutely gobsmacked.
So the idea is that you find a piece of rock that's too difficult for you to climb and drill holes in it until it's easy enough for you to climb.

Wow..... um.....

that's just plain wrong.

In reply to TheGeneralist:

In reply to TheGeneralist: So presumably if I try one of these routes and find it too hard then I'm perfectly at liberty to add a few more holds to bring it even further down to my level.

Or is the idea that whoever chips it first gets the right to say how hard it should be?

In reply to TheGeneralist: I think it's more a case of this piece of rock being impossible for anybody to climb, due to the damp conditions, which are fairly obvious when you look at the topo.

To me, it looks like an area which may never be dry enough for a 'proper' ascent, so it may only ever have seen 3 or 4 'proper' ascents. Why is it a problem then, to open up this area for dry tooling, meaning it will be used frequently and at least put to some good use?

In reply to Mike Nolan: The history of climbing is full of routes which were impossible for one generation, yet reality for the next!

This is just another example - and climbing today is depressingly full of it - of dragging routes down to peoples level, as opposed to people raising their level to meet the challenge.

As I've said before, the top climbers of the day are producing bewilderingly difficult and impressive leaps forward in performance. The standard of average mainstream climbing however, seems to be taking an equally big leap backwards!

In reply to Goucho: So what is your solution?

In reply to Goucho: You seem to miss my point. Whilst I'm for dry tooling, I'm not that fussed on drilling routes down to your level.

However, the point I'm making is that this piece of rock will never be climbed, because of the seepage it gets. Therefore, surely it is ok to dry tool on?

In reply to Goucho: In reply to Goucho and the other folk slagging off dry tooling on this thread. Firstly the walls that have dry tooling on are not for the next generation as they don't have any holds on, are over hanging and usually perennially wet.

Secondly there are more drilled and chipped holds on trad and sport routes in the quarries than on all the tooling routes put together, by the likes of Paul Prichard, Paul Williams and John Redhead to name just a few, and a lot of these are area classics.

Also, yes a third point, can we get away from this 'dry toolers' label bullshit so typical of UKC threads where some folk have to pigeon hole everyone; everyone I know that go dry tooling are CLIMBERS, they go tradding, sport climbing, winter climbing, bouldering, indoor climbing, and dry tooling. All these are aspects of CLIMBING. This is the brilliant diversity of our 'sport' and we can dabble in all or any of them. Is Dave Macload a 'tool' for dry tooling? What about Andy Turner or all the Scottish climbers who dry tool and also climb hard, scary and super adventurous winter routes that hold the torch for our almost unique onsight new mixed route ethic so admired by climbers from abroad? The tooling routes in Wales have already helped push new route standards here both at the top end and the for the general standard, when conditions come in people are fitter and ready for it, the number of new mixed rputes in the first 2 weeks of last season is testiment to this to some extent. Almost all of which where done in goid style ethically. Nobody is under any illusion that dry tooling is anything but just really good training for 'real' mixed climbing and this together with the sensitivity of where these tooling routes are established begs the question, what exactly is your problem? And yes, of course you are entitled to your opinion but it would be better if it was a better informed one.

In reply to Owain: If you have to do it, then at least face up to the challenge presented, instead of drilling it down to your level.

In reply to Mike Nolan: As I've said before, it's not the responsible climbers who worry me. It's the 'wannabe noddy's (and judging by this forum, and the number of people I've seen on my rare trips to the crag, there's a lot out there) unable to differentiate between an acceptable place to dry tool and an unacceptable one, that worries me.

In reply to chummer: I suppose I'm just a grumpy old fashioned fart, who doesn't like the idea of people wielding ice axes all over the place.

There are a lot of idiots out there, who adopt the 'I'll do whatever I want' attitude, which is alien to me - I was bought up in an era when peer pressure made you very concious of what was, and wasn't acceptable in terms of climbing style.

Now we see people stacking crash mats at the bottom of routes climbed decades ago, people 'working' E2's which were put up before we went decimal, chalk plastered V Diffs etc etc, and it's accepted as the normal style.

I suppose climbing is merely representing the modern attitude of 'me me me' and that again is something I find very negative.

Regarding Dry Tooling, I just see the potential risks as huge.

In reply to Goucho: I understand where you're coming from, but for mixed climbing to progress, dry tooling is an essential training aid, just like indoor climbing is an essential part of a lot (not all) climbers' training. Again, like somebody has mentioned above, the amazing FA's made by the likes of Dave Macleod or Andy Turner would not have been possible if it wasn't for the dry tooling they did, especially when you consider that these routes are put up in an onsight fashion. I also think that in general, dry tooling is done responsibly (I've never seen anyone dry tooling where they shouldn't be, I'm sure you've probably not either). However, like with most things, it only takes the actions of a select few morons (Aka Calum Nicol) to do something which gives *all* dry toolers a bad name.

I think it's important for people to realise that it's not a case of 'Dry Toolers' vs 'Climbers'. They are the same 'thing', and in general we all share the same worries. Developments like the one mentioned in the OP of this thread and other places such as White Goods are surely a good thing, because it might just prevent the idiots (aka Calum Nicol*) from going dry tooling at Millstone etc. They also promote the development of different branches of climbing, and in my opinion, that's never a bad thing, especially when it means walls, such as Ibex wall, which wouldn't see any trad ascents, are opened up and put to some use.

I definitely disagree that climbing is representing a 'me me me' attitude, but I'll save that one for another time!

Mike

* I do believe that Calum Nicol and his crony dry tooled at Millstone to cause a fuss, not because they didn't know they weren't supposed to.

In reply to Mike Nolan: Thanks Mike for a measured and informative response and argument.

Whilst I agree that dry tooling is undoubtably great training for those pushing standards at the top end of the sport, I'm still not convinced that argument holds water for the masses - my generation were pushing out Grade VI mixed without this form of training, and with equipment that today's youth would find hilarious - I remember the revelation that came with the first McKinnes Terodactyls!!!!!!

i think this winter will provide an acid test as to how well you can control the correct use of dry tooling, because there will be a lot of people bashing there way up classic rock under the argument - it's winter, and it's white - even though it won't be proper winter conditions - but of course, that's another argument alltogether.

In reply to Goucho:



And this is why its important for those developing the sport to promote good ethics and educate those naive to what it considered good style. It is NOT a good Idea to Label everyone who would like to improve thier winter capabilities as Nicol Toolers. As chummer (I think) said most if not all involved in the development have a good understanding of what is right and wrong and choose drytooling sites or winter areas for development on that basis. I personally don’t like the drilled routes on the slate but this is not because of the damage caused it is merely because they feel like set routes and not natural lines, that doesn’t mean I would knock the development though when done in sensible areas.

I for the record do drytool
And Winter Climb
I also trad climb
Oh and sport climb
Bouldering is for puffs though and should be banned with all mats confiscated and beanies burnt and that Parrawhatsit cave should be bricked up too…..actually no don’t brick it up it would make a good drytooling venue.

In reply to Goucho:

Whilst I agree that climbing walls are undoubtably great training for those pushing standards at the top end of the sport, I'm still not convinced that argument holds water for the masses - my generation were pushing out E5s without this form of training, and with equipment that today's youth would find hilarious - I remember the revelation that came with the first Boreal Fires' !!!!!!

I do worry about the spread and misuse but this argument doesn't hold water to me, basically IT'S FUN!

In reply to lithos: Good piss take, I asked for that one

In reply to Goucho: I can almost see your point but really part of climbing is about doing whatever the frig you want to, if you want to headpoint an E2 then do it, all it means is that you're less adventurous than the onsighter. Yes I agree it's a little sad when you see chalk plastered Vdiffs but you've got to get over it as there's nount you or I can do about it and does it really matter?

There are no rules just ethics and the main thing is people respect other climbers, the environment and other uses of that environment. I think within reason people can 'do whatever they want', I do.

The huge 'potential risks' for dry tooling is unbelievably reminiscent of the old bolting debates. Basically apart from a very very small number of chummers it's all fine, developers or activists are climbers who go climbing a lot and know the score and the last thing they're going to do is trash a good crag.

In reply to chummer: Almost forgot to say, good effort Tarquin on the routes, that wall has been waiting for one of us to get off our arses and I'm looking forward to getting down there soon to try out your handy work.

In reply to chummer: I don't subscribe to this 'you can't do anything about it'!

You can, you can create an environment where people know it's wrong to use chalk on V Diffs, and that head pointing an E2 just tells everyone you're not good enough to do it in the first place - you can embarrass people to not do this!!!!

And I don't subscribe to the point of view that you can do whatever you want on the rock - there are responsibilities for all climbers to recognise that ethics are not an 'opt in' option.

As for the comparison with the bolting argument, I bet there are ten times more bolts on the crags, than people predicted when bolting was first being justified.

15 years ago, did anyone think people would be retro bolting trad routes, or putting bolts on a 15' boulder?????

There's such a thing as setting presidents, and once you do that, there are always idiots waiting in the wings to get it wrong, which then encourages even more idiots.

In reply to Goucho: does setting presidents involve Obama and concrete?

In reply to Goucho: I think we actually agree with each other in many ways except I'm trying to let go of it as I have realised climbing is full of chummers who haven't got a clue. Fortunately virtually all developers/local activists have got a clue as they actually go climbing a lot and have done for years, much like yourself I don't doubt except they've embraced the newer aspects such as dry tooling as training for mixed routes.

With regard to dry tooling itself I am happy to agree to disagree but I truly wouldn't worry about it's development too much. We're pretty good at self regulation particlarly local climbers.

With regard to it spreading into the mountains and rock crags, folk have been scratching their way up Idwal slabs, for example, in Winter for years well before we had any tooling routes in the quarries and no doubt they will misiguidedly continue to do so.

In wales we are having a 'White guide' published in partnership with the BMC to outline our ethics for others to follow, a really positive step and one which helps define the do's and don'ts including the subject of climbing summer rock routes in winter. In fact, the Ground Up N.Wales winter guide has many pure rock lines 'out of bounds' for winter helping set that 'precedent' you speak of.

All the best
Jon

In reply to chummer: Thanks Jon for a very informative and positive reply (quite rare!!) which has certainly put the topic into a more mature and considered light for me.

i hope the example you and others are setting, is followed and appreciated.

And thanks for enlightemning an old fart, and maybe even teaching an old grumpy dog some potential new tricks.

Thankfully, Mrs Goucho is due back from visiting family in Oz this weekend, so I should be a less grouchy Goucho next week

In reply to chummer: Jon, just to clarify the North Wales White Guide is focussed upon conservation issues and specifically limiting the impact of winter climbers upon rare plants.

Obviously there is some crossover (e.g. only climb mixed routes if turf is frozen solid), however if people want some guidance about climbing ethics (i.e. thou shalt not trash classic rock climbs) there is plenty on this in the Ground Up North Wales Winter Climbing guide.

In reply to Sl@te Head:

cant wait to see the art ...

In reply to Goucho:

In reply to Goucho:

Okay I feel I should do you the courtesy of replying directly as you seem to have a particular interest in this.

>As I've said before, it's not the responsible climbers who worry me. It's the 'wannabe noddy's (and judging by this forum, and the number of people I've seen on my rare trips to the crag, there's a lot out there) unable to differentiate between an acceptable place to dry tool and an unacceptable one, that worries me.

So don't worry about this particular development, I'm a responsible climber with strong ethics, this was a considered decision and i feel anyone who has seen the wall in question up close would agree. I'll say it again, this wall is totally blank with the exception of a few shot-holes, hugely overhanging (maybe 30degrees) and permanently seeping, it's also quite hollow and I doubt if it will stay standing for many more years.

Development like this is in no way about me, me, me. In fact the absolute opposite, it involves a huge amount of effort and time, and one of my motivators is to provide a good training venue to the winter climbing community. Particularly in the more moderate grades, (most existing drytool routes are incredibly hard or very hard, these are only quite hard). Already this wall is turning into a busy spot and getting positive feedback from people who have climbed the new routes.

I (and every other climber I personally know who drytools) would be as equally outraged as I guess you would be if there was inappropriate development, or more drytooling on existing summer routes (like the millstone incident). I understand your concerns and do share them.

If you are ever up this way then do take a look at the wall and put yourself in the position to make an informed comment on this specific case, you be welcome to borrow my axes and monopoints if you fancied a play yourself, who knows you may even enjoy it!

I hope that helps calm your fears a little.,

In reply to torquil: Thanks for your considered and informative response.

Maybe, if other posters adopted the approach of yourself (and Mike Nolan & Chummer) as opposed to the highly defensive 'it's new and exciting, and therefore right, and if you criticise, it means you don't understand' attitude, old crusty's like me (who also used to be young thrusting Turks in the past - seen it, done it, bought the T-Shirt) would adopt a more open-minded approach to these 'new' developments.

As mentioned in a previous response, as long as there is a strong ethic, and understanding of context regarding dry tooling, then go for it.

Just beware though, that for every sensible responsible climber, there's always a 'wannabe noddy' waiting in the wings

And if I'm ever in Wales again, I may even take you up on your kind offer of participation.

Gouch.

In reply to torquil: Been a couple of times now, very good fun, well bolted, good climbing and you can get pumped out of your mind if you try. There couldn't be a more appropriate place to have done it and i really don't see any ethical problems.

Will

In reply to torquil: To all those claiming that dry toolers will soon be running around doing any route they can get their grubby little axes into and ruining all your classic rock routes; are they part of the same army of ignorant and unethical vandals that have run around bolting every classic trad route as soon as they discovered sport climbing? Oh wait... that hasn't happened. Which raises the question, why do you think that anyone who dry tools won't understand the ethics behind it?

In reply to 2PointO:


It has on the continent... perhaps, you should open your eyes a bit?

In reply to torquil:

BTW I got the maths all wrong when working out the angle of the wall, its more like 20degrees, you land about 5-6m out after climbing 14-15m up.

In reply to torquil:

Had a look at a few people Dry tooling there earlier today, I have to conclude that it looks like a good development

I did however have a closer look at the top of Ibex which clearly interferes with the top of 'Rest in Petes'. It would be possible to clip the top 2 bolts and the lower off + the top part of the Rest in Pete's ramp is covered in scratch marks. Rest in Petes may not be the best route in the quarry though no doubt the First Ascentsionists would have been proud of it. I was there the day Ibex was bolted and drilled and I remember advising the couple who were drilling at the time that they should avoid the trad line.....they clearly ignored my advise and carried on regardless. This is the scenario that highlights my concerns for future development in quarries where trad, sport and dry tooling co-exist.

Having said all of the above, I did spot another potential Dry Tooling venue on the overhanging face opposite the Mau Mau would be worth checking out for anyone thinking about developing some more Dry Tooling in the Dinorwic Quarries.....

In reply to Sl@te Head:

Thanks for taking the time to check out the development, I appreciate your input.

In reply to torquil:

video of bambi for those interested in such tomfoolery....

vimeo.com/17345806

In reply to torquil:
Well aren't you going to respond to the accusation that your new routes have destroyed a pre-existing route 'rest in petes'.

You can appreciate his input all you want, but what I (and other to probably) want to know is what you hve to say about it.

In reply to mattmurphy: Last time I was there I looked at 'Rest in Petes Eats'. It genuinely looks like one of the worst lines I have ever seen. It has no stars, no ascents on UKC logbooks, is on one wishlist and a loose nonline. Torquil didn't bolt Ibex and you would be doing well to clip the bolts on Ibex from Petes. Nobody is forcing you to clip the bolts and nobody ever will because nobody ever climbs it. I realise that on a wider scale this would be an issue, but in this circumstance it really shouldnt be an issue. Chill.

Will

In reply to mattmurphy:

you should probably go ask the people who bolted ibex in the first place then and not torquil.

In reply to mattmurphy:

Probably worth getting your facts right before having a go. Ibex isn't my route and has been there for a couple of years.

But for the record I personally wouldn't place bolts (be it drytool or sport) that would affect an existing line of any sort. None of my routes interfere with anything, I also made sure that Ibex Direct in no way affected either Ibex or Bambi as I feel that would have been unethical.

In reply to tom290483:

This thread is brilliant, really. The more exposure we get to DT the better. It will be better understood by everyone.

Drytooling is here to stay chaps. We, those who want to do well in winter, we'll continue its logical and respectful evolution. White Goods is now training ground to Tim Emmett, Ian Parnell, Nick Bullock, Greg Boswell and Andy Turner, to name a few. Drytooling is crucial for us to move things forward in winter climbing. We don't need much, and we don't for much either. Some fly-tipped, dank, dirty little hole will do for us. White Goods was a bloody shit hole. Now it's nice and clean. New people come around, get motivated about training and hitting the highlands strong. There's a healthy community. Mountain Rescues come train their skills there. Tim was training for Spray On project with me last weekend.

Last year I came 27th at the World Cup in Saas Fee, my training was drytooling at White Goods and the quarries. I did better than any French, American or Canadian, all major alpine countries. I know most of you dont care about the Ice Climbing World Cup, but some of us do. This year I want to climb Mission Impossible, and M11 by Bubu Bole, famously repeated by Steve Haston. It's mainly a roof crack with a massive icicle hanging at the end of it. Most of the fun is solving that roof crack (protected by pegs) to get to the icicle. I might get a few swings at the ice before topping out. BUT, most of what I'm looking forward to is to solve the drytooling section. But I'm flipping psyched for it! Because I could NOT free climb a 5mm-wide frozen roof crack with your fingers, could you? But yet, I'm compelled to climb it because it looks awesome and it's the ONLY way to climb it. Otherwise I would be packing my rockshoes and chalkbag instead.

Only last year BMC produced a vague code of practice for drytooling, in reaction to the Millstone event. If they would have embrace it and dealt with it earlier, the accident probably would have not happen. Action is always better than reaction. They produce all sorts of booklets for other climbing disciplines. They ignored drytooling as if it wasn't happening, despite them being fully aware. We, the activist, do all we can to promote respectful practice, but our reach is limited. Every year we see more and more people getting into it, and it needs to be dealt with.

White Goods is my training for Mission Impossible. White Goods is Tim's training for his Spray On project. It's Andy's training for his Scottish top-end ascents. Honestly chaps, it's a positive thing this is happening.

In reply to mattmurphy: "climb crack to loose flakes. Go up on the lefthand side of the flakes to a broken corner. "

Sounds wonderful! Such a pity Ibex may or may not have (i don't know or care) have destroyed it.

In reply to Ramon Marin:

jeezuz ramon, get out of here. this thread is for uninformed ranting at a dead horse in the arse end of the winter climbing world - we dont need you and your experienced friends coming on here and trying to relay real information.

if anyone was listening they would have picked it up 5 winters ago. that drytooling has its own ethics and applications that happily coincide with any other form of climbing, but are unknown to those who choose not to listen, is a mute point.

this argument isnt about drytooling, its about the paranoia and now-legendary actions of wannabe drytoolers who because of the hysteria have come to represent apparent drytooling in the eyes of the uninformed.
why look at the climbing of timmy emmet or josh wharton when its more fun to abuse callum and torquil?
im yet to see more than one or two actual discussions about drytooling amongst the barrage of opinion over the scratching of summer routes - something 'real' drytoolers dealt with years ago.

if we ever were to discuss drytooling, and not just the non-drytoolers worries about it, itd be dull - imagine the scale of those 'gloves for winter?', 'nomics or rebels?', 'do G14s go on scarpas?' and 'petzl picks are expensive' threads if drytooling took of!
jeezuz, itd be like bloody winter all year! the t-shirted and prana-wearing hoards wouldnt get a word in edgeways.

i just wish summer climbing was set by the standard of jimbo numbnuts fcuking up a 5.9, rather than chris sharma.
would make me look like a better climber.

In reply to ice.solo: Like a lot of things in life climbing is prone to fads and fashions, somethings come, some things go and some things stay.And other things people get bored of.
Only time will tell what is beneficial and what is detrimental.

In reply to muppetfilter:

very true.

lets hope this tired trend of the uninformed judging drytooling by its lowest denominator passes soon.

In reply to torquil:
Good work fella! Saw some of the projects/routes in passing before I got the new guide, stood there for half an hour thinking that's a 6!! All makes sense now, look forward to giving it a try.
It makes sense for this kind of research and development to occur in Dinorwic, it's not Stanage, some of the best routes include the odd bit of industrial detritus.
Perhaps some of the previous posters this tore down the original Looning the Tube for being impure.

In reply to ice.solo: The lowest denominator can regularly be spotted on saturday afternoons in climbing shops up and down the land... They gravitate to the ice axe display and brandish the most pointy grevous tool in a way that makes you fear for neighbourhood pets.
Its these chap/chapesses that go out and peddle up trad routes on topropes wearing crampons. By simply and discretely wiring up the display tools to 240V mains electric and dampening the carpets this issue of untowards drytooling could be swiftly resolved.

In reply to muppetfilter:

i like it. and a sniper at every crag just to clean up those who might have slipped thru.

the sooner the route-scratchers are eliminated, the sooner the ethics-worriers can go back to their guardians and the sooner those who tool otherwise-unclimbable routes can do so without the attention.

In reply to torquil: good effort torqui

In reply to ice.solo:



I know i'm no Tim Emmet but please don't group me with callum of Milstone fame!

Did this thread really just hit 140 posts, clearly there are no good conditions around here yet and everyone has too much time to waste.