UKC

Hiya,

I'm a design student and as part of one of my projects i'm redesigning the ice axe. I am wondering what people find annoying or problematic with their ice axes etc.... Any ideas or comments for improvements and problems would be great!!!! Thanks!!!!!

In reply to AJP_1990:

-weight
-unweildiness
-ease of changing picks without tools
-a genuinely comfortable and effective hand rest that gives as good support as a Quark or Viper, whilst folding (like the Aztarex) or sliding (like the Sumtec or Jorasses 2) away with no tools to leave a bare metal shaft with no rubber grip etc to interfere with plunging and stomper belay technique
-find some magic way of using an adze as a hammer instead of needing a second tool for alpine stuff where I only need one.
-find an answer to getting good hand clearance with a bent shaft vs straight shafts for plunging

In reply to AJP_1990: see grivel force carbon

In reply to naffan: although a self sharpening pick would be good. like metals of different strength next to each other

In reply to naffan: Use the self-sharpening effect of BMGs?

Also, a way of keeping your hands warm. Use the energy from the swing to generate heat in the grip somehow?

Some sort of integrated belay device?

In reply to AJP_1990:

How about some holes in the shaft so it could be played like a tin whistle to while away those long lonely belays...

In reply to AJP_1990: The PRICE!!!!

In reply to NottsRich:


It's already been done by e-climb. It's going to be hard to come up with anything new, original and genuinely useful on a an ice-axe. Surely the first essential for a design student is recognising where there is potential for re-design and where there isn't?

In reply to AJP_1990: blue LED's.....

In reply to AJP_1990:

Make the ice axe light. Very light. Almost weightless. This is important for the times when you are carrying it for a long time, or on long climbs when you are holding it above your head.
At the same time, give the axe enough "umpty" so that the pick digs in, the adze digs out the snow, and the hammer can hammer things in.
And at the same time ensure that pick and shaft retain the T rating.

Make the sharp bits out of a material that stays sharper longer.

Make the picks stick when you want them to stick, and yet come out of the ice freely when you want them to come out of the ice.

Do all of the above, yet keep the price to consumer at under £50.

In reply to timjones:

The first essential for a design student is recognising that every product ever made in the past or the present or the future has the potential to be improved and redesigned to make it better

In reply to AJP_1990:

Some sort of safety feature to stop it making holes in your head etc - a cork-like bung thing or make both ends a hammer?

In reply to tatty112:

Maybe. But if their choice of items to re-design is confined to fannying about with fiddly minor refinements they leave the bulk of the work to the marketing guys

In reply to AJP_1990:

An internal flask.
Probably not possible for hot beverages, but should be able to hold a fair amount of your favourite tot.

In reply to timjones: Why would they be confined to fiddly minor refinements? I don't know what they might be but I'm sure there's some significant improvements that could be made to ice axes.

In reply to remus:

You could be right but will they come from the practical uses of the axes or from deskbound designers?

In reply to timjones: I wouldn't discount either.

In reply to remus:

Are you a design student

In reply to timjones: Not a chance! Far too much work involved!

In reply to AJP_1990:
A modular system would be interesting, a pair of axes but all parts can be changed. With several shafts to choose from too - walking axe shaft, 'Fly' bent shafts and more technical shafts for water ice, different bottom spikes, adze, hammerheads and picks. Couls also have small extender peices too to make axe length as variable as we wanted it. It would all allow us to build the axe that we wanted and offering cheaper upgrade options - just needing to by a pair of shafts for example. We do it with cramps so why not axes

In reply to AJP_1990: Here are some mods I have made to my Aztars...

I have duct taped one of these http://www.toyssexshop.com/products/bms4321.htm to the shaft of my hammer. This makes alpine bivvies a lot more enjoyable, if somewhat awkward for my partner.

In reply to blanchie14c:

I suspect that waht you would end up with would be heavier axes with more potential for breakages ;(

In reply to Roberttaylor:
I can't believe that folk actually reviewed and commented on it! One bloke said it 'smelled bad' - that realisum for you

In reply to timjones:
I suspect carbon is the way forward, what they are doing with fishing rods these days is amazing. A nice thing to see would be a trig-rest type hook that folded away inside the recess of the shaft when not in use. My trig-rests work well with flys but being plastic they aren't going to last forever

In reply to blanchie14c:

Carbon may be one way forward but surely it's real strength is likely to lie in one piece shafts. Once you start adding fittings and joints you add weight and reduce strength.

If the end of your fishing rod falls in the canal it's no big deal, if the handgrip detaches from your axe whilst you're swinging on it you have a bigger problem.

In reply to timjones:
Thats the thing, the end of rods simply don't fall off. Rather than thinking of a very light rod used on a canal, think on the lines of a top grade beachcaster. These beasts store a massive amount of energy once compressed and can throw a 6oz lead over 200 yds. The join of the 2 pieces is ground to a tolerance fit taper and they don't come apart. Years ago before the carbon manufacturing techiniques were in common use these types are rods were a mixure of carbon/aluminium but over time rod builders have learned to make the carbon emulate the properties of aluminium making them lighter and stronger. Its a nice thought though, carbon axes. I think its been done recently

In reply to AJP_1990: Grvel make a carbon drytooling axe don't they not? Only one pair in the uk though.

In reply to AJP_1990: What sort of ice axe? and what price point?

In reply to AJP_1990:
for an 'alpine' axe, then how about having a extendable shaft, which can fit a shovel on? something like the bast*d love child of a BD Deploy crossed with a snowscopic??

In reply to Dr.S at work:

What about a ski touring axe which is normally a ski pole with a pick but converts to a snow shovel?

This is all a bit like playing with transformers.

I don't think the OP is a student at all, but is from Alpkit and wants free ideas.

In reply to AJP_1990: Yeah something modular would be the way forward, I want something I can use on the walk in with as well as having a huge grip

In reply to blanchie14c: It certainly does smell bad after spending August in the alps and not washing it.

R

In reply to Dr.S at work: making your ice axe an integral part of the shovel might not be a great idea. i imagine it's easy to lose your ice axe in an avalanche and if you then need to dig your mate out you're a bit f*cked.

In reply to remus:

Don't grivel already do a shovel head the slots on to the end of some of their walking axes?

In reply to Dave 88:

there's defintely some out there.

In reply to timjones:

the minor refinements are what take good products and make them better.

In reply to AJP_1990: For climbing axes, I think there is a lot to be gained from closer study of the ergonomics of hand angles, swinging and pulling. What about making specific left and right axes that have shafts that are bent in 3 dimensions?

In reply to AJP_1990:

make one that attracts girls in bikinis

In reply to ice.solo: See my first post for why that is no longer necessary.

In reply to Roberttaylor:

aha! i admire your work. mens and ladies versions, very metro

In reply to iksander: Woulsnt left handed and right handed axes be a step backwards? I change hands so many times when mixed climbing. Axes designed for each hand would be a nightmare!

In reply to AJP_1990:

Serious answer,


1: Modular design, take off from the newest Quark went. I want a shaft whiich I can change the ergo handle on to normal, to yes yo uguessed right, plunge and all that jazz.


2: More comfortable handles, more rubber.


3: Weight somehow but thats very tried..

In reply to AJP_1990:

A compartment in the shaft (fnarr) that fires a parachute oot so you can go free solo'ing or BASE jumping at the same time as climbing. Should be easy enough to design.

In reply to AJP_1990:

Retracting leashes in the handle

loose weights inside the head so that it works like a shot hammer

built in bottle opener

In reply to AJP_1990: a soft(softer than rock) pick(plastic) for summer tooling

In reply to Flatus Vetus:

Thats a pretty good idea

In reply to Mike Nolan: hmmm fair point - back to the drawing board

In reply to AJP_1990:

Might as well be radical. Who says gripping two curved picks is the best use of your hands? Don't improve the ice axe, replace it. Spiked gloves? A pair of ice screws with fist-size winder handles? A hollow tube head fitted with a trigger operated butane/catalytic heater that melts the head a few mill into the ice?

Knees and elbows have been traditionally shunned in climbing circles. I quite like the idea of knee pads, and elbow pads that strap on tightly and are covered with many small spikes. On non-vertical ice it might work very well. Lethally dangerous for your partner, but hey.

In reply to AJP_1990:

For dry tooling, a long telescopic handle with fold out foot rests. On short crags you could even hook the top of the route with such a device.

In reply to GrahamD:
For dry tooling, a long telescopic handle with fold out foot rests. On short crags you could even hook the top of the route with such a device.

I think they used to be called parrot perches, basically a rigid etrier with a hook on the top for aiding past short unclimbable sections in the days when men were men and mountaineering was meerly a way of putting scientific equipment up hills.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

Theneat bit is to make it convert, transformer style, back to a more conventional ice tool for when there is ice about.

In reply to AJP_1990: I know it's a bit pathetic (coming from a woman) but when using axe for walking it's COLD to hold on to!

In reply to Chip444purple:

Some sort of glove would seem to be in order?

In reply to Chip444purple:

Good point. Maybe a rubber grip. And many axes simply aren't that comfortable to grip at the head.

In reply to Ander: There is a weak point in the axe, but it's on the user - the hand. It's rubbish.

If the impact pressure from impacting the axe head was fed straight into a bone of the arm (for example a reversed armature from a lengthened axe handle going round the back of the lower arm), and the hand was merely used as a control surface, then grip would be more secure and more potential energy (through torque) would be transferred into the head. A security strap would also pass round the back of the upper arm to help those less strong climbers (novices, etc) or with shorter arms who are less able to impart torsional energy.

Spiderman's web is also in the news today...

Additionally, humans have a very low weight to strength ratio, and partly thanks to their stupid size, a dynamic centre of gravity which is very disruptive to activities such as climbing.

Are there other devices (like centre of gravity reporting based on sensors around the body - waist, ankles, chest, arms, head) which can provide logging of position and either record body movements for later analysis (in 3d space) or provide instant feedback like "increased torsional weight bearing on right leg, adjust position of left arm to compensate"

It would be a great training aid to have for the pros.

In reply to jhsp:



Something like that has been done, not only by ninja fantasists but also by serious climbers. Can´t find the article at the moment, but I recently read a trip report by a German climber joining a Russian expedition for some big wall stuff in the Pamirs. Apparently the Russians used knee pads with attached skyhooks on the aid sections.

CB

In reply to cb294:

These "knee attached" skyhook were to hook in to lightweight etriers...

In reply to AJP_1990: As an ex-design student (with my design career on long term hold), can I suggest that there are two kinds of products: Those which are re-invented and refined but often fuelled by marketing; and then there is innovation. An innovative design is an answer to a problem, a genuine need. If I were you I would look for a specific user (ice climber/walker/ski mountaineer) and address a challenge or problem they face which an Ice axe could be the solution to. That way you may even find that there is no need's concerning Ice axe design for that user as its already been done and dusted, but find another problem with another solution, and therefore address a genuine need.
A good end user to address, in my opinion, would be winter trail runners. Hope that is helpful.

In reply to AJP_1990:

redesigning the back of the head and hammer into a noce little mixed nut/torquing thing thats not too dangerous incase it pops would be interesting.
something that can be used where the pick doesnt work nor jamming a regular hammer does either. maybe even something that goes well into very shallow ice or turf by pressure rather than momentum.

In reply to Murray Walker: Agreed. In A-level design and technology, many of my peers fell foul of the "I'm interested in something therefore I am going to redesign it" way of finding a project. Their projects were inevitably rubbish because the reality was that they were not solving a problem. Merely inventing a problem that didn't exist.

In reply to AJP_1990:

Suction cups for classic waterfall ticks during mild winters would be good.

In reply to timjones: ha ha ha yes i am, studying in Newcastle...

In reply to Roberttaylor:

Hi everyone thanks for the info it's great!!!! Being a 20 year old female design student it is great to see some really helpful posts.....A big thank you Roberttaylor, I will make sure that I show my tutors that idea in my review Ha ha ha. Cheers.

How about these:
http://www.utsidan.se/forum/showthread.php?t=54558&page=2

Leashless axes with leash!

In reply to ERU:

That's a peice of minor genius....

In reply to AJP_1990: http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/classic-mountaineering-ice-axes/summit

I would think about classic mountaineering axes, this is a current example. In the last 10 years these have gained EU rating (T or B), & curved shafts (From technical tools) You might need to go climbing to do some research!

In reply to ERU:

Wow, that looks great,


TACK!

In reply to AJP_1990: Would it be possible to have a "Strike Plate" (like the old Aliens and Predators used to have) at the head. Thus when you are hammering an axe down to make a T Axe belay you don't trash the head of your other axe. Also could we strengthen the shaft of the "Adze" ice axe just below the adze so that this could be used as a hammer for the above use also.

In reply to ERU:

already been done:-

http://www.e-climb.com/dragoneras_en/handclip_en