UKC

Windy but good conditions today in Sneachda, lots of folks out enjoying themselves.

Some photo's and more words from today: http://elementsgb.wordpress.com/

Off over to Loch Avon tomorrow before the weather changes again.

What else did folks get done today?

Cheers
Chadders

In reply to Chadders:

Good stuff Mark, we just drove up from Leeds today, in Roy Bridge now (met Steve earlier) & it looks like your side is the best bet tomorrow. Might see you over the New Year!

In reply to Chadders: did the runnel today. Was a bit thin on the pitch, but otherwise good

In reply to Chadders: Went up Spiral Gully. Had friends on the Runnel and Crotched Gully too. Conditions were ok, better than the day before for sure. Pretty intense spindrift and wind though - almost lifting you up the route!

In reply to brianblock:

Almost complete neve to the chimney then rock and frozen turf covered in some fresh snow unless I'm mistaken or has it completely changed!!!

In reply to Ron Walker: Yes that was pretty much correct Ron

In reply to insaniak: Did one of your group lose a camera?

In reply to Chudders:

Pleez get ur spelling rite. Its Coire an t-Sneachda.

Regards, Donald

In reply to Saor Alba:

Ah but is it the Northern Coires?

In reply to Andy Moles:

No as "Corries" is well established and in general usage. Whether it'as actually a place-name is a matter of debate. What is clear is that Coire an t-Sneachda is the correct spelling of the feature known as a corrie in the English language. It isn't an English language place-name though.

In reply to Saor Alba:

Brilliant.

In reply to Soor Blabber:

Chudders?

Of all the variations that I've had on Chadders 'Chudders' is about the poorest. You should talk to my good friend DR Sharpe he'll give you loads.

Spelling has never been a strong point of mine, you should take some pleasure that it's almost spelt correctly in some form! But I do thank you for correcting me and I'm sure you'll carry on doing so unless you find something better to do with your life? Or I eventually learn!

Surely the standard non Gaelic speaking public have some leeway when in your own words, "as "Corries" is well established and in general usage." ?????

You should invent some form of Gaelic spell check App. for uneducated mignons like myself, a free one of course.

Looking forward greatly to your next lesson.

Cheers
Chudders

In reply to Chadders:
Chan eil donath Mr Chadwick... Dr S was indeed tolking about Ecosse Libre with a cornucopia of nice epithets only just last night.

In reply to French Erick:
Forgive the typo "talking" indeed... but then I ain't even no good English speaker anyhoo. Coire, corries are "cirques" in Moliere's own dialect!

In reply to Chadders: did you not know that ukc is strictly patrolled by the spelling police!! you want to consider yourself VERY lucky indeed to have got off so lightly!! i`ve seen people dragged from their screens screaming & lynched for similar spelling misdemeanours!!!

In reply to Chadders:
In future just call it the Norries, surely no one could object to that? Or is it the Nories? Indeed is it the same in the galic but in adifferent colour like all the road signs?

Getting back on topic conditions in the loch Avon basin were quite good today with good frozen exposed turf on our south facing crag. The crags on the other side looked in good mixed condition. I couldn't see hells lum but I don't think it was significantly icy.

I'm back out tommorw wearing two water proofs...
James e

In reply to James Edwards:

Cheers for that James.

I was out working today and got Route Major done, good conditions from bottom to top. Some clearing to do and not much ice about but great all the same.

We walked under Hell's Lum and it was very white and icy, not sure how good the climbing would have been but after this melt - freeze thing over the next few days things should be Bon!

Good luck tomorrow, pant wetting forecast!

Chadders

In reply to James Edwards:

Was that you on Stac an Fharaidh? We could hear voices from Stacan Dubha.

In reply to James Edwards:

I object very strongly indeed. Can't stand it.

In reply to Robert Durran:
What about 'Corie an t-sphincter' then? You must admit it does have a ring to it.
James

In reply to French Erick:
Les Cirque Nord?? Would that be right?
I like it. Maybe we could have bolted belays then.

In reply to James Edwards: Ha ha, that tickled me!

In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Yes. I'm surprised that you heard anything over the chopper that was circling.
James e

In reply to James Edwards:

I think it was much later, maybe around 14.00 or a little before.

In reply to Hay:

Les Cirques Noires surely.

In reply to Robert Durran:

And doubly apt after today's temperatures.......

In reply to Robert Durran:
It was 6 deg and windy and very soggy at 1000m today where I was in the. Orthern Cairngorms. We were scrambling on very nice granite ridges and had a surprisingly good day.
The contrast to yesterday was amazing and the snow loss and thus Conditions loss very disheartening.
We were thankfully finished by the time a wall of rain came down loch Avon and made it back to the car in the dry.
I dont think I will be out tommorw with folk but maybe Monday. We will see
James e

Felt so much like winter today, I ended up bouldering.
Low level but very mild.

In reply to James Edwards: What happened to the phone calls Mr Edwards. I now have new secret weapons bringing me into the 21st Century so bring on those big winter routes.

In reply to Lone Rider: Out today in the norries, went up Crotched gully. Was badly bonded powder for the most part, my heart raced for a moment when I triggered a small slab slide near the top, moved about 2 ft down across the width of the gully and about 3 ft depth. Reckon there'll be similar conditions tomorrow with the wind as it is so stay safe.

In reply to Chadders:

I was taking the mick with some deliberate spelling mistakes. The internet isn't good at conveying humour. The best place to get the correct spelling is on the map where most of the names are correct.

There is a Gaelic spell-checker but it runs on Windows (not sure about windows phone) and not in browsers.

You can get soundfiles of the Munros here: http://www.cnag.org.uk/fuaimneachadh_nam_beann.php I work for these people and realised that people needed sound files to assist with pronunciation. There aren't MP3s of the CairnGorm Northern Corries names though ut if you message me I can email them to you.

I'd also recommend a "Gaelic Awareness Course" - ask Shaun at the Lodge about this as he did a condensed one. I can help if you are interested.

The basic point I hold to is that I think it's important that mountain professionals go some way to learning the correct pronunciation of the names in whatever language they are in. I recognise that this is not easy to offer the help above. Contact me though my email if you want any assistance on this at any time.

Tiors, Donald

In reply to Saor Alba:

Hey Donald

You are right and I was wrong to knock the offer of assistance with my Gaelic spelling and pronunciation. Having grown up in Gairloch you would have hoped that some Gaelic awareness would have rubbed off on me, not enough obviously.
I was at the Lodge when Shaun did your condensed course and he spoke very highly of it, he even influenced the way I try and pronounce Corie an t-Sneachda.
I'll check out the sound files and would welcome the CairnGorm / Northern Corries names. If you send them to: info@elements.gb.net
It's to easy to be lazy with correct pronunciation and spellings and as you put it, as a "mountain professional" I've got a role to play with passing on the correct knowledge.

Cheers
Mark

In reply to Saor Alba:
Snorfle!

In reply to Saor Alba:


http://www.munromagic.com also has sound files of the Munro names, plus the Corbetts as well. I can't vouch for their accuracy, though.

In reply to Martin W:

I heard they aren't so good those ones (MM) although haven't used the ones posted above either.

In reply to Coire Bog:

What's really needed on those sites are more-or-less correct but slightly anglicised pronunciations, because if as a non-Gaelic speaker you go all out for the real thing you just sound pretentious. Or like you have a cold.

In reply to Andy Moles:


Better not be having a go at the Welsh pronunciations on MM,That's my voice

In reply to Andy Moles:

I follow that ethos Andy.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Like Corrie An Trek...

Crap idea bud.

I'd rather people just make an attempt at pronunciations rather than the bastardised versions you often hear. I think the sound files area great idea - just wish more poeple would make the time and effort to learn a wee bit about the Gaelic.

In reply to george mc:

What is the general Glenmore opinion on that Corrie An Trek thing? A gaelic speaker (non native though) said that snow is still pronounced sneek-ta.

In reply to Milesy:

It is, sort of but not in the genetive case of which Coire an t-Sneachda is.

It's more like Sneachd = shneachk and Coire an t-Sneachda - Corra an treachka

In reply to george mc:
rap idea bud.

Part of the problem is that there are loads "experts" who can pronounce gaelic. Unfortunately though they all have different ways of doing so! For example, above someone has gone to the effort of making sound files only for someone else to come along and say they are wrong. I'll stick with "Corrie an schnecta" because everyone understands it!

In reply to MG:

That's not true at all actually. There is accepted pronunciation and it's all about subtlety and the individual. The version you prefer is wrong.

In reply to MG:
The problem is that the last native gaelic speaker in Strathspey and Badenoch died years ago.

Every region would have had its own pronouciation pecularities and dialects. Which have been more or less lost for the Eastern highlands. With only a very few individuals, such as Adam Watson, in a position to comment from first hand experience of talking to those last few local speakers (often several years ago).

I know a Gaelic speaker (western isles) whom is very reluctant on providing (or ajudicating) on a pronouciation for this reason.

Essentially we are arguing over differing Gaelic speakers best guesses, in some cases these clouded by other agenda's.

In the meantime language has continued to evolve, as a means of communication, to the point where a bastard anglicised form is now (for better or worse, and for this coire in particular), the most effective means of 'communicating' where you are going or have been.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

That's not true actually, there is one guy whose name begins with N left but also Seumas Grannd is the authority on the dialect. Like you say Adam is the authority in areas further east.

In reply to george mc:

I agree - but some of the correct pronunciations are never going to roll off the tongue of someone who struggles even with a velar fricative.

I also agree that it's good to learn a bit more about the Gaelic, but realistically only a small minority ever will, and without some understanding of the language trying to learn off foreign sounds by heart is just parroting - you aren't speaking the language, only imitating it. What's the point in that?

Personally I do generally try to be correct, and I do find those sound files very useful, but as far as Coire an t'Sneachda goes, the use of 'shnecta' or something like it is so common that you can be certain everyone will know what you're talking about, thus achieving communication - back of the net.

In reply to Andy Moles:

You are quite right. Pretty much the only way to get to some form of confidence is to learn some Gaelic through classes or other forms of tuition. Check out http://learngaelic.net/index.jsp

The point is that Gaelic feature and place-names are a fundamental part of the Scottish hills and in my view, a fundamental part of reading the map of these areas. Of course one can choose to ignore that part which is fine but it certainly bring a huge additional level of understanding to the Scottish landscape.

"Snekta" is of course common amongst climbers but less so in non-climbing circles.

In reply to Saor Alba:

A laudable idea. Sadly there is a distinct shortage of classes for those of us doomed to live south of the border

In reply to Toreador:

Yes that is a shame but you can use the BBC stuff which looks to be quite good: http://www.bbc.co.uk/alba/foghlam/learngaelic/

In reply to Toreador:

There is a distinct shortage of classes north of the border too. Back in the early nineties I was able to go to evening classes in schools and colleges in Grangemouth and Falkirk, then teachers moved, interest wained and all the courses dried up. I still listen to CD's, watch my old "Speaking our Language" VHS tapes (Kept a hold of an old telly with built in video for this very reason!!) but really miss the interaction that the classes used to give.

In reply to Joak:

Give Clì a call on 01463-226710 to find out about classes in your area.

In reply to Saor Alba: Thanks, unfortunately my current shift pattern makes it nigh on impossible to attend any classes on a regular basis but I'll keep a note of the number.

In reply to Chadders:

Has anyone been up today? I realise temperatures are rising but thought a quick route in mess of pottage area might be ok tomorrow? Is it looking white at all? Dont wanna drive all the way up if theres no chance.

thanks in advance for any help

Jon

In reply to Jon Wylie:

It's black.

In reply to Jon Wylie:

http://www.winterhighland.info/cams/cairngorm-mountain/morlich.php

In reply to Jon Wylie:

Totally black over the whole corrie, I'm afraid.

We did The Runnel as it was pretty much the only white streak. Some others did the Seam and said it was in good condition with enough ice but it was absolutely black to look at. The temperatures today were not as cold as forecast. The neve was perfect but turf was generally unfrozen. It was 0 C in the car park as we left at about 3.30

Hope that's of some help.

In reply to Chadders:

*sigh!* oh well thought I was maybe being a bit optimistic. Thanks for the info anyway, I
Appreciate it-saved me a drive. That websites really good

Cheers

Jon

In reply to Andy Moles:

Likewise 'Anoch Eegach', but it's just so wrong that I can't and won't say it anymore!

In reply to paulipauli:

That's keen! Did you manage to finish the route before it got light?

In reply to Chadders:

I was climbing in Garbh Choire Mor, Braeriach today and the easier routes are swamped with snow. There's so much that some of them are banked out. But the steeper routes (like White Nile) are fairly bare (not climbable). The difference with Cairn Gorm is staggering. There's enough snow to last next summer even if it doesn't snow again!

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

good to know!! thanks Andy

In reply to Michael Gordon: Second that. Wandered up to Coire Lochain, pretty black up there too. Had a sneaky peak at the vent (very drippy and lean), saw a few groups heading up the Couloir, looked about the only thing worth doing.

In reply to Andy nisbet

Thanks for that info. I wonder if lochnagar might also resist this thaw
A little better than the northern corries

In reply to Andy Nisbet:
What are the cornices on the Braeriach like Andy?

In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Very public spirited, I had that penciled in for a possible quiet trip at the w/e.........

The joys of winter conditions forecasting, I forgot in this day and age you have to predict the internet wind direction as well.

Oh well its a big area and I can look forward to a bit of banter in grand surroundings.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

With that walkin I can't imagine it being mobbed!

In reply to CurlyStevo:
Aye, but the line I was thinking of has a few stars, and there may be a few folks with ideas to ski down things that were back up options.

However if you lurk on forums for comditions tibits and confirmation of how the weathers turned out versus predicted, you cannae complain to loudly.

Since the cats out the bag; if your good on planks (and I'm not) a high level approach from Feshie could be very efficient.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:
Well at least on the way home........

In reply to CurlyStevo: I second that. Apart from Andy who's a breed apart how long do you reckon for the walk in. Dependent on conditions of course.

In reply to Alan Breck:
Living east of the gorms on my three previous winter climbing trips I've walked in from Derry lodge most of the way on friday night bivvied and done the rest in the morning. Giving times is hard, depending on conditions. More normal approach would be:

Chalamains Gap from the Sugar bowl: Good if limited snow, or expecting neve to ease the approach up Sron na Lairige (or ski's), i.e. very suited to dropping into Coire Bhroachian, the quickest corrie to get to. The alternative traverse round from the pools of Dee could be an arse. The boulders of the gap are horrible if lightly dusted, or hidden in fresh snow. I also know of a chap who popped through a hole into the stream in thaw conditions, at the north eastern entrance. Walked through this way a couple of times, for a wander rather than climbing.

Less frequented:
Einich: By mountain bike, again optimal with limited low level snow (and ice).

From Feshie on ski. This and Einich require knowledge of the corrie rim to find a suitable drop in point(s). Had friends grin at thier sucess with this, but does need good conditions, and an urge to ski as well as climb.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Baggsy the bothy! (Such that it is)

What about Sphinx Ridge and/or Gulley? Is that gulley banked?

Or Crown Buttress?

In reply to Alan Breck: I've done it in summer by the gap, I can't remember the exact time but I was carrying 4 days supplies and climbing kit and my mate wasn't fit I seem to remember 4.5 hrs to the bothy. I've done it in winter in december by loch einich by bike seem to remember that taking around 3.5 hrs, the cycle took an hr by the time we'd stashed the bikes and it's still a fair trek up and over the plateau. By the time we had found route in nick without a mental cornice (that took atleast another hour) We just got one easyish route done, the cycling both ways was done in the dark and the rest in daylight.

Thanks Scraggygoat & CurlyStevo. Ski-ing for me isn't an option so it would have to be bike or foot. It's a long way from the Feshie though. I'd have thought that the Lairig from Coylumbridge might have been good but I hear what you both say.

Another read of guide book shows that the cornices are somewhat extreme on most routes. Especially the lower graded climbs that I'd be looking at.

In reply to Alan Breck:
The cycle took us so long as much of it is on quite icey tracks, to be honest I think we were lucky we didn't fall off!

In reply to Alan Breck:
The cornices in Garbh Choire Dhaidh were much smaller when we went, we did a route called The Chimneypot, which gets II but was probably more like III,4 on the day, quite a nice route although only one shortish crux pitch.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:


In such conditions, it's better to traverse just above the gap on the Creag a' Chalamain (north west) side: there's a faint path and the extra height gain is no more than 20 metres.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Mostly big but breaks in a few surprising places. It's a bit hard to tell from a distance how easy the breaks are but where I climbed looked steep and scary but was actually fine (West Buttress Lower Corrie). There was definitely a break at the top of Solo Gully. Some of the ridges ended at a very steep looking snow arete but no actual cornice. I think if it froze properly, they would be worth a go. I descended into the corrie at the regular spot just on the Mor side of the Mor/Dhaidh boundary ridge. It would be hard to find in the mist.

In reply to Tony the Blade:

Sphinx Gully was just a snow slope (Grade I). The ridge would be good but I think the cornice there wasn't possible. I didn't really pay great attention but Crown Buttress was certainly in good nick and the cornice might have been OK. Phoenix Gully looked thin but probably doable. There was a break in the cornice at the top of the ridge to its left, but it looked steep. It really needs to be clear weather and then you'll find something good.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Thanks for that Andy.

I guess we'll wait and see what weather the next week brings - I'm aware that a week in Scotland is a very very long time, weatherwise.

In reply to Tony the Blade:
which day do you arrive Tony?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

We're driving up on Saturday, first 'hill-day' will be Sunday.

Conditions are looking mighty cold, and probably windy.

In reply to Saor Alba:
>Never mind the spelling, how do you pronounce it for gawd's sake? Some expert said "trayack" or something of the sort.
Gaelic is an odd language - half the letters are silent, and the rest sound nothing like English pronunciation!

In reply to Rog Wilko:

See above and I am working on sound files.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

A few years back, a group of us were on the way back to Barra from Mingulay and decided to ask the wonderful native speaking old boatman what the correct pronounciation of t'Sneachda was, explaining that it was a subject of much debate amongst climbers. He looked thoughful for a moment, then said (in his beautiful Hebridean accent), "Well, you see, it doesn't matter too much. There are several ways" (or words to that effect). We all fell about laughing.

In reply to Robert Durran: I feel a bit of variety should be injected into this vital debate :

"How to pronounce the name of the mountain called Liathach?"

If we can't reach 10 alternatives, I will be disappointed.

It really is amazing the ways that Winter climbers find to pass the time when conditions are crap.

In reply to Simon4:

The gaelic speakers in Lochcarron cal it Lia-ach (with a long a). But in Kinlochewe it's Liahach (with a definite h).

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Then there is Lia-g-ach...

Jim

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

I seem to remember Sorley Maclean on the Munro Show saying it is sometimes pronounced locally as Lee-aghach.

In reply to jameshiggins:

That's just lazy

In reply to Chadders:

http://www.speygaelic.org/place-names.asp

Sound files with Cairngorm name pronounciations.

In reply to george mc:

That's brilliant! Thanks.

I'll have to practice next week.

In reply to george mc:

I should say George that the way "Coire" is used there is slightly difficult. I know the person involved and was in the room at the time and I hope to be able to produce an easier version soon which is just as authentic.

In reply to Saor Alba:

Glad you said that - I was trying the pronounciation out myself and it was tough getting round 'coire' - it seems to be said more in the roof of your mouth. Can't wait till morning meeting on Thursday and I say where I'm going

In reply to Chadders:

so in thespirit of the original thread what are conditions like? And do we think it'll get cold enough this weekend? Im heading up on sunday and cant decide between glen coe and cairngorms appreciating that neither will he perfect?! :'(

In reply to kermit_uk: There is a photo on my blog with a link to some more of yesterday- http://alanhalewood.blogspot.com/2012/01/more-winter-awareness-for-arqiva-a... Even most of the easy gullys were broken, snow was variable, some soft, some much harder. There s a little more snow in Coire an Lochain.

In reply to kermit_uk:

I'm heading out tomorrow with a team of strong climbers, hoping to head up towards the Lochan if it's white and wintery enough.
I'll report as to how we all get on!

Chadders

In reply to Chadders:

Is that a (very) light dusting and/or a hard frost I see before me*?

http://www.snow-forecast.com/resorts/Cairngorm/webcams/latest

*Wishful thinking!

In reply to Tony the Blade:

The crags are lightly rimed. From appearance conditions are borderline to too bare. Obviously you could do a route and enjoy it, but new routing looks out of order. Only thing is that you can't see ice from a distance so some routes might be slightly better than they look.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Thanks Andy. I think on Sunday we'll take a wander down Lairig Ghru and see what we can see.

We'll look into Lurcher's or possibly Braeriach - thanks so much for all your emailed comments.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Looks like tomorrow is a day for hill-walking rather than climbing. Ho hum.

In reply to Tony the Blade:

Lochain is whiter (more rimed) than Sneachda, there was some steep stuff done there today.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Great - I will take even the tiniest morsel and transform it into a cracker of a session (in my head during the 9.5 hour drive up there tomorrow)

In reply to Tony the Blade:

Though with temps hovering just about zero tomorrow, it could be black in the space of half an hour

In reply to Andy Moles:

Even the tiniest morsel - now don't go spoiling it for me

In reply to Andy Moles:

I knew there would be. At borderline, you don't go up and do nothing, just I hope no-one claims new routes.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Hi Andy... Lochain was actually a whole load better than that today... in fact it was in superb mixed condition!! I was a bit apprehensive I admit, but boy was it worth it. Went in with Greg, Will, Ally, Chadders and visiting Austrians Charly & Matthias... a percentage call, but one which paid off. Daddy Longlegs, Overseer Direct, Fallout Corner, Grumbling Grooves, (plus more??), climbed and all in top condition, and hardly any other folk around!. See my blog for some more info and pics http://tinyurl.com/7scks4y . The key question, is will it stay rimed for Saturday??? Possibly...possibly not!!

In reply to Simon Yearsley:

Looking at the pictures I still say it's marginal (and I know I wasn't there and can't tell). But of course pleasure is all that counts. But if one of the lads had gone on to a hard new route, then I think others would be justifed in being pissed off. Sure it will stay all weekend.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Yeah pushing the "in" when it's white ethic a little to far, The BMC may as well pay some painters to white wash the cliffs before the event, it is the dry toolers symposium isn't it? climbing all year round! sorted.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Andy, the only bit which I'd say was marginal was the bottom 3m of Western Route - everything else, believe me, was most definitely in good condition, and new lines would have been perfectly justifiable! I have loads more photos if that would help!

In reply to Simon Yearsley:

Looks 100% in condition to me, although probably at the "helpful" end of the scale...

In reply to Simon Yearsley:

Now you know I'm being devil's advocate here, but did the whiteness influence the climbing in any way? If it hadn't been there, would the moves have been any different or any slower. In other words, was the whiteness anything other than cosmetic. And if that is acceptable, then why does anyone climb new routes in any other condition, because hard routes are a grade easier like that. I walked half way up to Sneachda today (recovering from a cold) so I did see it, but it won't be my choice to go up to Lochan tomorrow. Of course if folk want routes in easy nick, then they should go there.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

I know its all in the eye of the beholder (and I'm not criticising anyone!) but it does look rather more wintery than this

http://teamascent.blogspot.com/2012/01/lucky-us.html

MB

In reply to Matt Buchanan:

Looks a lot more wintery towards carn etchachan. Took today.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/alastair_s/6691050415

In reply to Simon Yearsley:
I have some good shots of your Austrian pals on Grumbling Grooves. Get in touch and i'll email you them.

In reply to Matt Buchanan:

The difference is that we were climbing snow and ice, so if the walls above were black (and smooth) it isn't relevant. They were climbing slightly rimed rock with dry cracks and backs of grooves. So their axes were on dry rock much of the time. Appearances aren't everything.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Andy, we most certainly weren't climbing 'slightly rimed rocks with dry cracks and backs of grooves'. There was useful (but sometimes unhelpful) ice in the cracks, hard packed show on ledges, ice glaze over most things. Please believe me, it was in very very good winter knick....

In reply to Simon Yearsley: im off there next friday for a week. hopefully there'll be a lot more!

In reply to Milesy:

That's Creagan a' Choire Etchachan. Looks stunning though, wish I'd been out there!

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Andy, to be fair (playing devils advocate here) When you climbed Crotched gully on 27th December it wasna in condition! Never in a million years!

In reply to Chadders:
Looks pretty well ideal conditions to me- I have seen pics of first ascents from some very prominent Scottish climbers doing routes in much less wintery looking conditions for sure.
Looking forward to heading out somewhere tomorrow,
Alastair

In reply to drunken monkey: I think if you read what Andy said mOre carefully he is saying that it matters greatly when climbing a new line, specifically a new hard line as this crew a likely to be aiming for. For the four thousand and fifthty second ascent of crotched gully then it is less important as at that point it is about the personal experience and what you think of it yourself. If you see what I mean.
James e

In reply to James Edwards: I kinda see what you mean but: If its not in nick, its not in nick! Now I'm not overly bothered, however can you say its alright (to climb something out of condition) on a grade I/II Gully but not alright on a grade V/VI mixed?

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

It looks like perfect conditions to me looking at the pictures. I don't see how anyone could look at that crag and say it didn't look "wintery".

I do completely agree that the routes (harder rocky stuff) will of course be easier to climb in these conditions than with more snow with the whiteness just being cosmetic really.

So why would anyone climb routes in other conditons? Well, because we don't control the weather! If the choice is climb in harder conditions or not at all, then most folk will just put up with the extra clearing etc rather than just sit on the couch.. I bet you conditions such as now are what most folk doing the hard rocky stuff like best though, it's certainly how i prefer it, just a shame it's not like this more often.

In reply to drunken monkey:

Vintage UKCism - no one climbed a new route and there's still an argument about it

Hopefully they did climb a new route today, just for badness.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Andy have you been taking drugs? Some of the best and exclusively hard mixed climbing crags in Scotland will never be as white as the photos of Lochain on Simon's web site, but this shouldn't stop people climbing new routes on them. And you've made first ascents on blacker Cairngowm rock than that.

Easy conditions, perfect conditions - whatever, it's certainly winter conditions. I hope our Austrian visitors have a blast.

Cheers, Guy

In reply to Matt Buchanan:

Naughty naughty Andy - and a new route too!!!

In reply to Chadders: a bit of Colgate toothpaste could be used to whiten up the crags before new routing?

In reply to drunken monkey:

Well he didn't say that. Why shouldn't it be alright on a grade V or V1?

In reply to Wry Gob: Thanks Guy. Spoke to Charly today (after his crampon hassles), and turns out they flashed Never Mind after they'd done Fallout, not Grumbling Grooves as I thought (they were just starting the route, and we were down at the bottom of the Great Slab... and my eyes aren't what they used to be!!). Not a bad first day for them - Charly did say he thought Never Mind was more like hard VIII,8 rather than IX,9... but of course that was the 'easy conditions' effect! Cheers, Simon.

In reply to Simon Yearsley:

I'm willing to accept that I may have stepped over the mark, but conditions were hardly "ideal". I've done routes in the past where I was disappointed because they were too easy due to thin conditions.
Strangely enough, it was Wry Gob I was trying to protect, as one of his maguc lines will undoubtedly be climbed on the forthcoming International Meet if thin conditions are acceptable. But if he doesn't want suppoort, then I withdraw it.
So I go back to "ideal conditions". Folk believe what they read, and will start looking for the least acceptable snow on a crag, until they end up with none ("it was frozen"). But is it as satisfying? Or are they missing out by not seeking something better?
So I got it wrong, but someone has to say that less isn't always better.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Hi Andy,

For me the 'easy' mixed conditions up in Lochain at the moment are actually quite special, in that they are hard to find. Much more often up there, the crags are either deeply buried and / or heavily iced / verglassed, or just plain black. It's maybe only two or three times a season they are like they are at present and the harder routes feel 'easy'. So just perfect conditions in my book. That said, it's all second hand information for me!

Appreciate your support, but to be honest I don't care much about new lines in the norries Andy - they're really just little training routes anyway, and a good distraction from the tastier cuts elsewhere And I probably wouldn't venture onto an unclimbed line that looked grade X if there was a foot of hoar and ice on it, would you?

I always said Pic n' Mix (Never mind) probably only VIII - it was almost laughable how much rime ice was on the route for the first two ascents (about 10 inches deep in the top groove). And the only reason I upped Gathering to IX was becasue it's harder than Pic n' Mix.

Cheers, Guy

In reply to Wry Gob:

Some English lads who cruise VIII failed high on The Gathering recently, then they did Ventricle quickly in the afternoon as a consolation. So IX sounds correct. That said, it's all second hand information for me!

In reply to Simon Yearsley: Did the boys ever get their crampons back? In terms of routes, I thought they had done 'Happy Tyroleans ' on friday? Maybe I misunderstood, and they were planning to do that route on saturday? Pretty bad show if someone 'half-inched' their crampons from their stash point - doesn't reflect well on the home based mountaineering fraternity/sorority(not wishing to be sexist..............!)

In reply to Andy Nisbet: Thanks Andy, really appreciated. And you're right, less isn't always more, and as Guy says below, 'ideal' condition are pretty hard to come by and very very special.

In reply to Simon Yearsley: Just in case this saves anyone a drive, we were in Coire an Lochain today and the rime has all but gone now. A few routes tucked in around the Gaffers Groove area are still whiteish but everything else had depleted greatly overnight and continued to strip through the day today leaving all the other routes completely black. There were a few things climbed today, Hoarmaster got done but was pretty black, we pottered up Deep Throat which was much the same, some whiteness but definetely not properly "scottish" and Hookers Corner saw an ascent (it was in better nick early on) as did a few harder things (new line from Greg and Will, Pic and Mix had an attempt and the austrians were tooling everything in sight...).

In reply to neil the weak:

What I say here is based on photographic evidence rather than first-hand experience.

The Pinnacle was the only area of the coire in condition on Sunday. Deep Throat was a rock route. There's no two ways about it. Uk-based climbers should know better and set a better example. The Austrians tooled their way up a very black and dry Nocando Crack (and perhaps also the Vicar and something in the vicinity of Happy Tyroleans). Some disrespectful and, in my opinion, disgraceful behaviour. It's all very well the BMC inviting continental climbers over for the international meet, but do they have an obligation to educate them about Scottish ethics? I have no problem with taking advantage of the "easy" conditions of the last few days, but I do have a problem with clearly out of condition routes climbed with/by tools.

Jim

In reply to jameshiggins:

As far as I could see, the only ones doing almost completely unrimed routes wer the Austrians (a new line near happy Tyroleans, Nocando and the Vicar I think) so I'm not sure who was setting a bad example to whom! It was disappointing to walk in and find how much blacker things had become overnight, so we went for plan B be and did a "lean" Hooker's Corner (it would have been harder without tools and crampons, so as far as I am concerned, met my criteria for satisfying winter climbing). Everyone except the Austrians were crammed into that area and everyone seemed to be having fun. I'm afraid I cannot see what is disrespectful or disgraceful about enjoying oneself and doing no harm to anybody else or damage to the routes (or at least no more harm than an ascent in whiter conditions). I suppose some people might get upset about the Austrians' new line, but I'll leave that debate to those at the cutting edge - except to say that they seemed nice guys who were also having a lot of fun!

In reply to Chadders:

I don't know if this will be of any help to anyone but we went and tried Deep Cut Chimney on Saturday as Hells Lum looked the whitest from the week's photos.

Half way up it was clear that the last couple of pitches in the chimney were black (well, brown in the sunshine ) and dry, so we retreated.

I'd imagine the existing ice and exposed turf will freeze nicely at the next cold spell, but something might be needed make the tops 'in'. I think I noticed on Guy Steven's blog on the day we were there that he had to mix three routes to get a line that was acceptable.

In reply to all whack and danglers

The blind leading the blind, classic group think scenario.
i'm really glad you had a happy time, doing what ever it was you were doing with those sharp metal things.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

As one of the english lads can I say ...Conditions are a funny thing hey.
We bailed due to the wind and nasty conditions. PLacements where hard to find and The Cracks were very hard to protect, and as my partner found out by a dramatic inverted all bar 2 bits of gear ripping plummet toward me even the nuts were not staying put. After I got a little higher and my ropes getting blown up the gully I decided I didnt like the idea of tourquing above the only bit of gear I trusted. In hinsight I should have been a big girl, but at least I get to see my little one again. We then popped off to do hoarmaster, Ventical would have been nails that day. The following day was worse and we went home. I will put that trip down to experience. boo !!!

I am both pleased and upset that Mr B has done it now .... its good that its getting attention because what climbing I did was very good and definatly felt harder than Pick'n mix (I had been standing in the cold for an hour and a half so who really knows) but if this picture of very lean conditions that is forming from all the comments on hear is true then I am a little dissapointed and think maybe we should just wait a little longer. It will come good again.

hopfully for next weekend when I head back up

In reply to jameshiggins: Hi Jim, I don't want to take away anything from the sentiment of your post, but just for clarity, the BMC International Winter Meet is next week - Charly & Matthias are here independently.

In reply to Simon Yearsley: okaydokey Simon. Hopefully the buttresses will be acceptably white again very soon. In fact it's sounding promising for the back end of this week/end...

Jim

In reply to jameshiggins:

From the photos friday definitely looked like the best day for conditions. Things like Ewen B direct start and a reasonable amount of No.2 buttress looked (from the path) in condition yesterday but I imagine those routes won't really be on these guy's ticklists.

In reply to neil the weak:

That's Will in that pic.

In reply to jameshiggins: Hi James.

I'm not sure what example you want us to set here? Everyone up there yesterday knew what they were doing, and was enjoying themselves within the limits of the day. It is a funny thing though mixed conditions itsn't it. We could have climbed deep throat 24 hours earlier and it would have been essentially no different at all asides from looking a bit prettier with the wee rime flakes everywhere and no deabte would be occuring.

As it was, we did as you say climb a rock route albeit one where some (most) of the flat holds were covered in snow and some of the cracks were ice chocked. I'm still not clear what's disgracefull about that. We didn't make a "winter" ascent but so what, no (more) damage was done than normal (maybe less) and we had a nicer day doing some climbing of some kind than we would have had we just turned round and plodded back to the car. We did talk about doing just that as there was pretty obviously nothing properly "in" and free but then my partner talked me into climbing something anyway to make something of the day out and retrospectively I'm glad we did. I think it is good to try and remember that it's all just supposed to be a bit of fun at the end of the day....

Will try and stick up a photo or two from the day to add further fuel to the indignation fire anyway, I have a couple of decent ones from our route and one nice one you won't like at all of the Austrains in action.

In reply to Craig Mc: Oops. Same route.

In reply to neil the weak:

I'm going to eat humble pie here, that photo from friday looks wintery enough up in that corner of the corrie, hopefully the farm boy mk11 will give a little guidance to the less initiated in the art of what consitutes a Scottish winter ascent.

In reply to jameshiggins:
James,
You seem quite cross - I think you should just have a wee seat.
What difference does it make?
The Austrians were on holiday, Will and Greg nabbed a hard route in the best possible conditions and everyone else had a good day (by the sound of it).
Why does it have to be all chittery belays, misery and terror? That would be a bit like tee-ing of from a bunker. Why make it hard for yourself.....?

In reply to Chadders:

Do you use analytics? If so how much traffic has this thread generated? MP3 coming by the way. Saw Dr Sharpe on Saturday but in sad circumstances.

In reply to: Jim's comments and annoyance are solely regard peoples choice of routes yesterday (not to be confused with friday or saturdays conditions), when conditions were a significantly poorer than the previous day and a number of people walked in on the assumption of good conditions and were surprised and disappointed with what they found! Out with the gully lines in lochain, in my own opinion, few other routes that were being climbed were 'in' a condition which I feel acceptable to winter climb. I don't believe the sentiment that I've travelled all this way so I have to climb something is acceptable either......

I also think it was disappointing to see foreign climbers climbing routes in a condition which a local would have got a bollocking for i.e. black. Should we turn a blind eye as their not from the scene? Does this pull down our own ethical standards, or what we think on a given day can be climbed when we see people on something a lot worse?

Yesterday was the 3rd time this year I have been shocked at people climbing miles out of condition routes.....what the %$£*'s going on people???? And not just in the norries.

Andy

In reply to andyinglis:
Good / Lean conditions I heard.

In reply to andyinglis:

Hi Andy,

I agree, I couldn't believe the stuff people where climbing on Sunday, e.g. the Message had not even the tiniest bit of white on it and yet people were scratching up it. Same in Lochain...

In reply to andyinglis:

As one of the people you are presumably referring to (we were on Hooker's Corner), please can you tell me what harm I was doing to anybody or anything? I don't think the route was "miles out of condition", just marginal. (Good effort on Pic 'n Mix by the way!)

In reply to Heike:

Twas ever thus Heike.

For what it's worth with the weather set to change, there's lovely ice conditions on the right hand side of Hell's Lum at the moment.

In reply to neil the weak:

We didn't make a "winter" ascent but so what, no (more) damage was done than normal (maybe less) and we had a nicer day doing some climbing of some kind than we would have had we just turned round and plodded back to the car.

Playing Devil's Advocate, you could say the same about dry-tooling Savage Slit in August.

In reply to Chadders: Get a grip people. British climbers should be just so honored that climbers of Charly and Mathias' calibre would want to come and play on our cliffs. At least thats how i feel when i see the grin on Charly's face standing atop every route he's done so far.

How are they supposed to learn about our very specific, weird and (to an outsider) a bit rediculous ethics?

For some very impressive photos of some true winter climbing, and a reminder that in Scotland, we're just playing, wait and see the next update of this blog - http://www.alpineexposures.com/blogs/chamonix-conditions .....

Will

In reply to Will Sim:
>

Maybe someone could tell them? Like the Bleausards do when they catch you using chalk.

In reply to mux:
I didnt mean to come across As slagging an accent off ..more that I hadnt done it.



I am always slagging accents off. Unfathomable ones like Kenny Dalglish's really annoy me.

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

'The best climbers are the ones having the most fun'

They didn't drill holes in our mountains, if they thought it was in, it was in. If others didn't, then it wasn't.

I once climbed a mixed route in Canada with Scott Semple, telling him it wasn't in. I then explained our ethics to him and he understood. When I couln't get up it on second, he laughed 'nae wonder you're pish, if we waited for those conditions, we wouldn't get climbing'.

Stuart

In reply to earlsdonwhu:

That reminds me...

Dalglish was once asked in an interview what he thought his best facial feature was to which he responded: "Mebbes ayes, Mebbes naws"

In reply to DaveHK: very good sir...very good..

Small phone thick thumbs too little time ..

Very good non the lecc

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


Hello Jamie,

I think I'll leave much further comment till tomorrow as I've just uploaded some photos of our route, the austrians and also of Andy on Pic n Mix for comparison. Will add a comment with links as soon as they appear.

All I'll say for now is that our route felt pretty different from how it would in July, in fact I'm not sure I could have climbed it at all without tools(which is basically a large part of how I tell if a route feels "wintery" to me or not) although there were for sure sections which were totally dry. Also the crag wouldn't be frozen in July and for most routes that kind of matters if you care about the turf / mud etc.

But - if someoene did tool up that specific route in summer what would be the harm? I don't know is my answer. It would seem a strage thing to do to me, I wouldn't care to do it myself but would I mind if someone else did? Not really.

In reply to Chadders: To those that think its ok to dry tool winter routes in the Scottish mountains - its not ! Not looked at the photos and dont care if your routes were in nick or not but generally the whole thing leaves a bad taste. Kid yourselves you are doing no damage if you like but to my mind you are damaging someting special and perhaps intangible about Scottish winter climbing. You are damaging its ethics and its history and leading others to do likewise. A climbs best protection is not to be climbed at all, therefore several dry tooling ascents will do more damage than if it had one ascent when it was in condition. Seems a selfish and disrespectful attitude to me and to Scottish winter climbing, which for most,is something a bit more special and serious than merely playing around. Keep up yer attitudes and wait and see where we are in 20 years.

In reply to Pete.T:
its also the thin end of the wedge for climbing when the turf is not frozen. As soon as climbing black rock becomes acceptable to winter climb, it becomes more acceptable to pull on unfrozen placements and destroy them perminantly (or atleast until humans stop winter climbing).

In reply to Pete.T:

That is an excellent point and one which I had not considered before. Climbing out of nick probably doesn't do any more damage than an in nick ascent but it increases the number of ascents.

In reply to Chadders:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=473715&v=1#x6543835

Celebrating the late arrival!

In reply to neil the weak:

Brilliant! I think you can rest your case (though no doubt you will not be allowed to do so....)

In reply to neil the weak:

Puts the kettle on and pulls up a chair...

(Pete.T, brilliantly put by the way.)

In reply to Pete.T:

The routes climbed on Sunday were in marginal conditions and would certainly been a lot harder without crampons and tools (this seems to me the only rational, uncontrived way of defining a winter ascent - I just don't buy this arbitrary, ill defined thing about cosmetic whiteness). I don't think anyone is suggesting it is semsible or aesthetic to tool routes when it would be easier to rock-climb them.

But yes, you are right, a route's best protection is not to be climbed at all with crampons and tools, so let's not climb them at all then. At least then brilliant summer rock climbs like Savage Slit would be protected from further trashing as a mediocre (in my opinion) winter route.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

That is a completely separate issue; to confuse them is plain stupid.

In reply to Pete.T:


So to all scottish mixed climbers then, since everyone I know who does it (without exception) has made ascents of routes where the climbing is basically dry tooling a rock route with some rime or snow on it.



You're right. Mixed climbing should be abolished immediately. If an ascent in or out of condition is damaging and bad then we shouldn't be limiting the number of ascents surely - we should be stopping them outright. Or we could just ban the climbing of rocky routes until there is enough build up on them to stop the tools impacting the rock, though that would effectively be the same thing anyway.


We are both talking about two pitch high wintery rock climbing here right? Big alpine faces are "serious and special", the norries are cragging.

One of the nice things about a winter day climbing in this country is that it can be so many things. I've had full on long days with the outcome in doubt till the end, very scary experiences on poorly protected ice, powerfull days doing big solos, battles with terrible weather and conditions and also.... nice pleasant days in the sun with mates where it really is just nice to go out and play in a nice place.

It's the narrow minded defintion and rule making of what "should" constiute a climbing day I object to. I think if you went far enough back in time you would find there wouldn't have been the same pigeonholing of summer and winter climbing, it was all just climbing and you used whatever tools seemed most appropriate given the conditions on the day.

It seems to me that people are sometimes so keen to claim or categorize what they are doing (winter, onsight, whatever) that they lose sight of why they are doing it in the first place, which is hopefully to have a good and memorable experience. As long as you are doing that in a way which doesn't stop anyone else doing it for themselves in the future then really, what is the harm?

In reply to Robert Durran:

to think they are mutually exclusive is even more stupid. IMO ofcourse.

In reply to neil the weak:

But surely "cragging" is a just a word? The activity is the same with no exceptions. "Climbing" would be the best description.

To me, who doesn't climb at those grades, the three pictures above would not count as a winter ascent. I don't think anyone is saying what a climbing day should be, just do those conditions fulfill the vague definition of "winter conditions" in a Scottish context. To me they wouldn't but to you they do. I have no issue with that.

In reply to neil the weak:

'Like'

In reply to neil the weak:


Yes, this pigeonholing can lead to the ludicrous situation where you find yourself,on a particular day, not "allowed" to do a particular route at all unless you are prepared to desperately skate your way up verglas in rock boots, because there is not the arbitrarily prescribed necessary average weight of rime per square metre to "permit" the use of crampons.


Precisely. Actually, I think a lot of the objectons are probably based on a hard to admit envy that someone else is having a good, proper muntaineering day while one is missing out due to some absurd self-imposed "ethics", tenuously justified by a marginal decrease in the scratching of rock that is already massively scratched anyway.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I'm in the odd position of agreeing with CurlyStevo for once - they are not separate issues. Because Scottish climbing has never had an accepted winter season like in the Alps or Himalayas, winter became defined by how it looked not by what date in the calender it is. One positive spin off of that is that by saying things need to be wintery to be winter ascents it also helps protect the turf. Of course I know that sometimes snow stops turf from freezing and it can be well frozen when there is no snow - but over all as people come into Scottish winter climbing, them grasping the idea that cliffs should look wintery for winter climb helps protect turf.

Were the Austrians climbing on their own or did they have a photographer with them? I'm sure they did no harm to the route but, if the latter, it would be a shame if pics showing conditions like in your pic turn up in German magazines as showing "Scottish winter climbing" when many in the UK wouldn't actually consider it so.

In the general scheme of things, ascents in marginal conditions like these appear to be are hardly something to get worked up over but when pro climbers bring camera people with them as well it changes the dynamic rather.

In reply to TobyA:
it's not that odd, I can't be wrong all the time

In reply to TobyA: They very much did not have a photographic crew in tow (unless I count! and they didn't "bring" me). They are just on holiday not too worried about ticking grades or making waves, just doing some climbing in nice weather and loving it.

In reply to Chadders:

sorry but have i miss read the title of this thread?


has anyone actually got any conditions reports then?

In reply to Northern Climber:
In

In reply to Saor Alba:

No no. I don't think they constitute "winter conditions" either, in the scottish sense of the word. I just don't see why that means you should be banned from attempting to climb up a cliff just because it isn't either neatly "winter" or "summer". It's still climbing.

In reply to TobyA:

Neiltheweak. Could you please delete these pictures.
The UKC massive would hate for them to fall into the wrong hands.
Could you imagine the harm done if johnny-foreigner thought you could go winter climbing in Scotland on nice days. And have fun.
We would be inundated with sport-strong, M climbers who might show us all up.

In reply to Grahame N:

But there is a better definition: the route is easier to climb with crampons and tools than with rock boots and chalk.

In reply to TobyA:
>Saying things need to be wintery to be winter ascents it also helps protect the turf. Of course I know that sometimes snow stops turf from freezing and it can be well frozen when there is no snow - but over all as people come into Scottish winter climbing, them grasping the idea that cliffs should look wintery for winter climb helps protect turf.

No. This is very muddled thinking. It is the fact that the turf is frozen that protects the turf, not a "wintery" appearance. This is not hard for beginners to grasp. As you say, the very snow that provides the wintery appearance can sometimes insulate the turf and stop it freezing!

In reply to Robert Durran:


That's not really a better definition (although IIRC it goes back to Joe Brown doesn't it?) at all.

I'm sure there are certain rock climbs (thin cracks or with tiny edges) that would be easier to climb with ice tools than without. That doesn't make them winter routes.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Hmmm, that definition would work well with Chouca at Buoux

In reply to Robert Durran:

'But there is a better definition: the route is easier to climb with crampons and tools than with rock boots and chalk.'

Don't say that or we'll end up with photos of people dry tooling at Millstone.

Oh... hang on...

In reply to Robert Durran:
Robert it's quite simple, if there is no snow on turf and the frost is melting then the turf is also unfreezing, the meltw*ter (as can be seen in some of the pics) will also be further causing the turf to unfreeze.

I'm not commenting weather all the turf was fully frozen on the day as I was not there to check it. But there must have been some doubt regarding this.

Furthermore if it becomes acceptable to climb winter climbs in the absense of wintery apperence then it becomes more likely climbs will be done when the turf has never frozen in the first place. Atleast when climbs look wintery and it is winter there is a fair chance the turf will be frozen.

In reply to Robert Durran:


A bit like the occasional day when a mountain is covered in snow but the turf not frozen you mean?

Are the DT routes at Newtyle and White Goods winter routes by your definition?

In reply to TobyA:

Th odd special case shouldn't be allowed to undermine the obvious common sense of the definition.

Or, if you prefer, I could add that it should be ice and snow that makes it easier with tools and crampons than with rock boots(as on Sunday).

In reply to Robert Durran:

I don't agree. Some rock climbs, probably steep a crack, might well be easier with axes and crampons summer or winter. Also, the wintry appearance thing is more unambiguous (black and white in fact!). Easier in rock boots or crampons is not very clear cut - you probably wouldn't know until after you finished the route. Also you can tell from a distance if a route looks wintery or not, often from the car.

In reply to Robert Durran: Bring back nailed boots and fingerless mittens; problem sorted

In reply to CurlyStevo:

There was no meltw*ter - no idea where you get that idea from!


I can assure you that the turf was absolutely bullet hard on Sunday - nothing was melting. Conditions were curious though - the rime was decreasing as we climbed, but seemed to be evaporating directly into the very dry, cold air (sublimation?) and our route looked less "wintery" when we finished than when we started.


This is a ridiculously patronising - by all means discourage people from climbing when the turf is not frozen, but credit them with the intelligence to judge this directly for themselves, rather than via the presence of snow which may or may not lie over frozen turf. As I said, they are separate issues.

In reply to Grahame N:

But then you might bin it from the car and deny yourself a great day climbing on very icy but not more or less black rock. Last winter I did No Blue Skies in conditions where the first pitch was definitely easier with crampons and tools but the rest would probably have been easier in rock boots but we kept our crampons on and used hands (much as I have frequently done on alpine routes). No harm done and we had fun. What's the problem - that someone who saw us thought we were somehow cheating and claiming bragging rights of which others might be envious?

Seems ironic that we're we arguing the toss about protecting rock routes from damage on a crag that is two miles from a major ski centre with all of the attendant mess it has caused. And lets not mention the very convenient road to the centre and the fantastic network of paths that we all use to get to the crags that we are so desperate to protect.

Maybe a bit of perspective on damage.

In reply to TobyA:

So your definition has exceptions too. So what? Mine is still much less contrived.


They are what they are - DT routes. I think most people look them as a training faciklity.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I was wondering if this was sublimation - I've been on the hill the last five days and it's never felt like it's been thawing - nothing has been wet - yet the rock has been getting blacker. Around the top of Sneachda for example seemed to go directly from icy to bone dry.

P.S. who wears rock boots these days?

In reply to Andy Moles:


Old farts like me.

In reply to Robert Durran:


No it's not - it's just as contrived; you immediately had add to your first amendment: "thou shall only find climbing with tools easier due to snow and ice, not due to the underlying rock's nature". I'd add a second amendment, same as the US one, and then whatshisname can defend himself from the mob when he goes back to a snowy Millstone to have another crack at Embankment 1 at VI,7.

In reply to CurlyStevo: There is no meltw*ter at all in that picture?

In reply to neil the weak:
ahh right what do you call that stuff under the climber then or indeed in several other dark patches over the wall. I think it's commonly assumed that dampness on rock is water and that a day or two prior to the picture that stuff was frozen!

In reply to CurlyStevo: I have no idea having not been there but could it no be that there is very light rime elsewhere but those patches haven't caught it?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

You were not there. You are talking out of your arse. Or are you just accusing me and Neil of lying?

In reply to Will Sim:

"true winter climbing.... in Scotland, we're just playing"

??!!!!!!!

Fall off and break a leg on the Leseur, you'll get a free lift to the hospital.

Fall off and break a leg on Beinn a'Bhuird?

It's all games Will - it's your chosen board and the rules that really matter

In reply to TobyA:

So I conceded a point and made my amendment. I thought that was the point of debate. I thought you would be happy! I still contend strongly that my definition is less contrived since it does not lead to the absurdity of feeling obliged to climb heavily verglassed rock without crampons.

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I think the darker patches are lichen Steve. I can send you the full res image if you like so can zoom right in on it yourself.

In reply to Robert Durran:

That the route must be frozen is much more important than that one can climb it easier with axes and crampons. This is the most important rule (to protect the turf and stop blocks being pulled off) and therefore if you want a simple definition (not necessarily the best option) then best go with this.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I agree that if you want an "ethical" rule then this is the one to go for, but it is not the same as a necessary and sufficient condition for claiming a winter ascent; you can get, admittedly unusual, conditions when the turf is frozen solid, but the rock is bone dry - easier to climb with rock boots than with crampons. Some routes or pitches would have been like this on Sunday (in fact the ones people were avoiding in Lochain by climbing in the Y-Gully area!). Conversely, a route could be buried in snow with ther turf unfrozen; an ascent would definitely be a winter one, but I think most would agree that it should not be made! There are two separate issues here which should not be confused.

In reply to neil the weak:
Ok fair enough I'll take your word for it my misinterpreation.

In reply to all recent posts:

Whilst I understand the importance of such discussions, from a sustainability aspect, as a mere traveller of relatively low grade, uninspiring and non-groundbreaking routes (compared to all the VII+ repeats, etc) this thread is making me both scared and disillusioned with the winter climbing community.

I've managed to get out about 8 times so far this winter and have not considered the issue of whether my ascents would be counted by anyone else as 'ticked' or that my choice of route would be frowned upon by others. Having said that, I have always made my own personal assessment of what is acceptable.

After the brilliant days I've had with friends and the pleasant chat I've had with other mountain-goers, I fear that I may be subject to the same kind of scrutinisation, and potentially disgrace, for picking the wrong objective in the future. This slightly detracts from what the mountains are about for me: going and having an adventure and exploring the unknown.

Where is this discussion heading? I don't see a conclusion on the horizon. Can I expect to be harassed by others for picking the wrong route? Because if I am relied upon to make my own judgement, then surely that's the same for everyone?

In reply to OwenF: I wouldn't worry too much Owen, these discussions were happening nearly 20 years back when I climbed first in Scotland and I'm sure Andy and Grahame will tell you they were happening well before that too! If people respect and protect the turf and aren't claiming new routes, then I suspect very few are that bothered. I guess some known and very talented overseas climbers are what has made this case discussion-worthy.

In reply to OwenF:

If the only issue is to avoid setting an example which might lead to others' claims of new routes which might give guidebook writers the dilemma of who's egos to massage, then I really wouldn't worry about it. As I and probably most others on here have been arguing, it certainly should be about just going out and enjoying doing your own thing.

In reply to Chadders: This is mental

In reply to Chadders:

SO! CONDITIONS!!

Looks like they'll hopefully be enough snowfall over the week to bring the likes of Lochain into decent winter nick. Can't wait to kick start my stalled winter climbing season this weekend.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Aye I'm off into the Northern Cories tomorrow with work for a scratch around hopefully, I'll let you know how it all looks.

Maybe we can bring this thread back on track or even let it slip in to the dim and distant past??????

In reply to Chadders:

Some photo's of the Northern Coires from afar, Black is the word for how they looked all day!

http://elementsgb.wordpress.com/

In reply to Wry Gob: indeed, Colin Haley doesnt think much of the Mt Blanc Massif, clearly his version of the northern corries

In reply to Erik B:

Maybe that's because it is similarly being disgracefully turned into another dry-tooling venue:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=66139

In reply to Robert Durran: good to see your on here, clearly a heidcase amongst the WRI coffee morning scene which is what scottish winter has become

the austrian dude should have his passport taken off him!

In reply to Erik B

And he prefers the proper climbing to be properly rimed up)

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.climbing.com/news/hotflas...

In reply to Robert Durran:

your halfway up the Dru and its -15. would you take you gloves off and start jamming your hands inside a crack?
personally i'll keep my gloves on and torque my axe in the crack.

In reply to Andy Nisbet: I could be mistaken but there is a photo on the bottom of page 58 of the current Climber mag and the conditions dont look a million miles away from the ones in the photos shown in earlier posts on this thread!!!

In reply to tom290483:

That Swiss dude should have his passport taken off him. Anyone with any moral fibre and a respect for the great traditions of alpinism would have walked away and left it for a day when there was a little cosmetic whiteness to give it a wintery appearance.

In reply to Ecosse Images:

I haven't seen the mag, but pictures don't always tell the story. Like the ones of Sron na Lairig which show black rock but it was an ice route. And if it's not a new route, then you can do what you like as long as it doesn't spoil the route for others.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Apparently not, if some of the posters on here are to be believed.

In reply to Robert Durran:

haha.

i'm not sure i should post this link then......

http://jeffmercier.blogspot.com/2012/01/mixte-climb-au-blade-stadium-nightm...

shoot the b*stards!

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

So, is it ok if it is a new "route" but you don't tell anyone or claim it, so that the eventual "first ascentionists" still get their effectively virgin adventure and the `guidebook writer doesn't have the dilemma of whether to accept or reject it?

In reply to tom290483:
I can only asumme that people's tongues are in their cheeks on some of these posts, but it is hard to tell on the internet and when 50% of climbers on here are probably on the autism spectrum (me included some would say).

Alpinism is Alpinism. Scottish winter is Scottish winter. Ice climbing isn't mixed climbing, west coast rocks don't rime as well as cairngorm granite, first ascents are a limited resource, etc etc.

There are lots of subtlties and destinctions that are important but may not be apparent to some people but are blindingly obvious to a more seasoned and thoughtful person.

Oh well, fresh snow in the NW last night down to low levels and a very healthy covering on the hills, ice is slowly building on the more 'intersting' remote locations and the forecast looks good. Whoops i went off topic, but i'm just keeping in the spirit of this thread.

James

In reply to Robert Durran:

If it's not in condition, then No

In reply to Smith42:
fair enough I already accepted it was my misintertpretation. TBH as the turf was frozen and no extra damage was done, I personally don't really take issue with the ascents (and nor would it be my buisness to do so)

In reply to Robert Durran:

I know folk already climb new ground and don't tell anyone. But it would seem to need a strong will to never tell anyone. Claiming a route 10 years later is worse.

In reply to James Edwards:


Seroiusly, with my tongue no longer in my autistic cheek: Is there an actual geological reason why west coast rocks don't rime as easily as those in the Cairngorms, or is it just that the lower altitude means that there are less often the right meteorological conditions for rime to form? If this is the case, is the fact that it seems to be generally accepted that it is less poor form to climb unrimed routes on the west coast, really just that people can't be bothered to wait for the rarer rimed conditions that one is expected to wait for in the Cairngorms?

Anyway, enough of this banter. Back on topic to the serious question that people are really interested in: IS THE RUNNEL IN?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Apparently it's irrelevant. You can legitimately climb it in any conditions, just so long as you're having fun.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Speaking as a free lance scientist...
yes there is a geological reason in that the surface tecture of the granite aids the growth of rime, but given the right conditions any rock (even corners and cracks on slate) will rime. These conditions are more likely to be found in the mini arctic platau that is in the Cairngorms.

It is perhaps worth pointing out the evolution of even having rime as being in condition. Meeting a few old boys from the craig dubh in the 90's really opened my eyes to what other older more experienced climbers called in and out of condition. Whilst i was looking for rimes up cliffs and then climbing them and then scraping the rime off i was in their eyes perhaps too eager. I should have waitied for the rime to build, then a melt and a refreeze made it climbable. These conditions where what we had two seasons ago and i found them to be amazing. A total head game. However i recognise that expecting everyone to wait for this is these days unrealistic, but i mention it to refer to the continued evolution of the game.
James

In reply to James Edwards:
of course in the days of old it was always cold in winter and the conditions became excelent every winter right?

In reply to CurlyStevo:
no
there were some terrible winters in the 80's and before. That was when people went hill walking and went to pub.
Getting everything right in those days for an ascent of something like slav route or ravens gully would have taken a lot more savey than now and would perhaps seemed a bigger adventure for all that rather than another notch in the bedpost or tick in your online ukc profile. The only people that you could tell would be your mates or a few randoms in the pub who would mostly have just thought that you were weird anyway!
James

In reply to James Edwards:

Well said. If blogspot shut down there would be less climbing in "marginal" conditions. Marginal these days means not winter.

In reply to James Edwards:
a notch on your bedpost for a winter route, surely not, wouldn't that be for dry tooling at newtyle quarry A good winter route is like making love to the woman of your dreams

In reply to James Edwards:

So I take it a rougher surface rimes more readily? Sandstone will rime better than the quartzite in the NW then.

In reply to Robert Durran:
You would think that would follow, but it doesn't seem to. I rarely see sandtstone as well rimed as quatzite.
Someone will come along and speak about atomic covalent bonding!
I think that rime likes growing on other rime and it needs an initial seed so to speak. I dont think that it is the 'roughess' but rather the surface texture (granite being rougher on a larger scale)
james e

In reply to Saor Alba:

I'n not convinced about that. In fact I sometimes wonder what the real affect of all the blogs, forecsasts and avalanche reports is. I suapect that in the old days people just went out more on spec more and climbed what they found, so people perhaps more often climbed in gnarly, difficult or marginal conditions (I know I certainly did in the eighties!). Nowadays, it is sometimes all to easy to be put off by negative reports on the internet and decide to wait for a better day or better conditions( Or maybe it's just me getting soft and looking for excuses to have a lie in at the weekend.....). I'm pretty sure the internet does have the effect of concentrating people in the same places (the usual suspects plus the odd one off route like Resurrection after the article on here last week.) What does seem certain is that the internet has gone a long way towards demystifying winter climbing and is at least partly responsible for the explosion in numbers and standards in the last few years - I'm not sure whether this is a good thing or a bad thing!

In reply to James Edwards:

I think a controlled experiment is needed; I might collect samples of different rock types from various locations and set them up in the same location and measure the rime build up.
Wooden fence posts certainly work well!

In reply to CurlyStevo:

wild and wet?

In reply to CurlyStevo:

A good winter route is like making love to the woman of your dreams

Looks improbable but still goes?

In reply to tom290483:


Leaves you aching and skint.

In reply to CurlyStevo: and there's usually a queue waiting to get up it

In reply to James Edwards: i always thought rime was to do with the critical mix of temperature and humidity (moist cloud) most often found at higher altitudes in scotland. not many rock types above 1000m other than the usual suspects.

somtimes freaky coniditions of cold and humid at low levels occur eg cobbler after certain weather patterns, very cold and still moist thick cloud usually from SW S through to SE. northerlies nae chance

In reply to Erik B: ps forgot to mention wind helps as well

In reply to Erik B:
Yes I think that location is probably the major factor as you say but I suspect that the faceted nature of the surface of the object encourages the growth
James e

In reply to James Edwards:

A quick google and I failed to come up with anything on how the surface affects the initiation of rime. It is caused by supercooled liquid droplets hitting the surface and freezing, so I imagine it is something to do with the geometry of the surface trapping the droplets - on what scale I wonder. If rime forms more readily on quartzite than on sandstone it would presumably have to be on a fairly microscopic scale (are the droplets microscopic?). I presume some research has been done, since there are very good reasons to avoid rime forming on aircraft, but maybe little is actually known about rocks.

In reply to Erik B:

"northerlies nae chance"

On the contrary - northerlies + wet rock = hoar frost (not to mention ice!)

Rime ice, as has been explained, is something different.

In reply to Wry Gob: Im talking about the Cobbler mate

In reply to Robert Durran: i dont think the rock type has any relevance in scotland with rime, smooth metal, wood, cables,wire, all rime like feck

In reply to Erik B:

Quite right. It's all in the location, aspect and altitude.

In reply to Erik B:

James sems to disagree - the rocks in the west don't rime up as readily as Cairngorm granite, so it is considered less poor form to climb blacker stuff apparently!

In reply to Robert Durran: james needs to ask himself if arran granite rimes up a lot, its even rougher than gorms granite

In reply to Robert Durran:
To clarify my thoughts...
I think that the local weather and conditions are by far the biggest factor . The other minor factor is I think that the faceted surface of granite better allows the initial seed of Rime to grow perhaps due to the propensity of small 'cormers' etc. This initial seed then encourages the further growth of the rime.
Those people who spend their spare time reading books on avalanche and snow studies will perhaps remember the kenetic crystal growth that occurs in the corners of a snow crystal more than at the apex of the point where it sublimes from. Of course in this moist environment very little sublimation with be occurring as the air is already saturated hence the riming but my point is that the local humidity in a corner (micro scale) is greater than on a flat and or on an apex.
I'm finding it a bit difficult to really express myself but that is about the extent of my hypothesis from observations and some knowledge of the science of water and crystallography.

This is now widely off topic but I would be very grateful if any millionars reading this would fund my practical research with a grant that I would put towards climbing and hill walking through out Scotland.

James e

In reply to James Edwards:

To get back on topic the gorms granite ( in Sneachda) was not riming up at all today, with the butress's all black, despite the snow. Too windy / powdery i guess. Invernookie looked to be the only thing marginally ok. I wouldn't expect it to be any better tomorrow, but could be wrong.

Cheers, Loz

In reply to James Edwards:

But much more interesting than the state of The Runnel though.


I think the. MCofS should provide immediate funding.

In reply to James Edwards: heres the acid test, stick a big block of glass, a non stick frying pan, block of schist, block of sandstone and a block of gorms granite on the summit of Cairngorm, see which one gets the deepest hoar. ill wager it makes feck all difference

In reply to Robert Durran: I wont have you slag the runnel, my first ever winter climb.. crackin wee route

In reply to loz01: Aye black as you like and the snow patches still there were mushy too. I was working in the Coire today until the wind blew us back out again. In the car park at about 3.30 there was a lot of heavy wet snow falling though: http://alanhalewood.blogspot.com/

In reply to Erik B:
You haven't thought this thru old boy, or maybe you have. The glass wouldn't rime. Lots of panes of glass in ski centre and un heated wee sheds dotted about up there. I've never seen rime on the windows. however a piece of polished glass and a piece of badly scratched glass could be interesting.
However your suggestion for an expedient is a really good one as it important to have extreme ends of a spectrum to get interesting results or have a null hypothesis.
I feel a Grant application to NERC coming on.
James e

In reply to James Edwards: erm mate, your no the sharpest knife in the drawer.. the windows in ski centres are clear because humans like to allow light into their wee rooms

In reply to James Edwards:

I have a photograph of a discarded bottle completely frosted up. I imagine window panes would do the same.

In reply to James Edwards:

Right, I'm going to do it. Between now and next winter I'm going to collect small slabs of different rock types from all around Scotland and then next November set them up at an appropriate location in the Cairngorms and compare their riming qualities. It will have the added benefit of providing some good training. I'll report back here with photographic evidence. It should be genuinely interesting.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Good stuff! You may also want to set a time lapse camera to see which materials rime more readily/ first. Once the initial rime has seeded then it is easy for rime to grow on rime.
Shame this is all buried in this overlong rambling thread.
James

In reply to James Edwards: I want to hear more about your windows hypothesis mate

In reply to Erik B:
I only use Linux so have no experience of Windows I'm afraid Erik.
Much love
James e

In reply to Erik B:

I'll prop up a piece of glass alongside my rock samples to settle the matter. My money's on it being vey reluctant to rime.

In reply to James Edwards: what about the windows in ski centres?

In reply to Robert Durran: verglas rimes up like feck mate, even smoother and slipperyier than domestic glass amde from sand

In reply to Erik B:

Ok, I'll freeze a sheet of ice in situ and test that too.

In reply to Robert Durran: thumbsup! think you should have a miniature model of James's ski centre complete with windows and wee robots coming out to clear the rime off, and of course roasty toasty radiators in the rooms

In reply to Erik B:

There's a good one in the funicular station (not that I have ever been in there myself you understand). I'll see if I can borrow or otherwise obtain it.

In reply to Erik B:
Eeee eeeerrrrr. Verglas is made of water and thus is likely to have a chemical affinity with super saturated water vapour and this form rime. Glass on the other hand whilst it looks the same to a casual eye is Silica based and will have quite different surface bonding properties. But I'll give you the fact that they are both slippy.
If I'm wrong and glass rimes at the same rate as granite then the next stage of the research project is to develop a non rime coating to sell to the ski centre and I will spray on my granite projects so that no one else can climb them (only after I develop a coating remover mind as being an upstanding gentleman of the hills I would never climb black cliffs. Honest guv)
James e

In reply to James Edwards:

I can't believe you are still arguing about this. Glass rimes up. End of story.

In reply to James Edwards:

Glass is nowhere near as slippy as ice. I've just tried a rock boot on my window and its actually hardly slippy at all. But I still bet it will be reluctant to rime.

In reply to Blobb: hes deflecting away from one of THE classic UKC Faux Pas

In reply to Robert Durran: sand is more slippery than watter, so glass has more friction that verglas.. James's hypothesis is arguably complete and utter bollocks my learned friend

In reply to Robert Durran: That's because the pressure exerted by your boots on ice will create heat and melt a surface layer providing a lubricant for you to slip on your ass

In reply to Blobb:
My good man I have an open mind on the matter. I am a rime agnostic and I await Bob lugging a couple of tonnes of test materials up to the plateau.
I look forward to peer reviewing Bob's paper before it is published in the Scottish Mountaineer.
All I can say is I bet we are all glad that the norries are not made of glass... but then again the cliffs wouldn't be black.
James e

In reply to Lone Rider: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_rime

In reply to Lone Rider: Some more reading.
http://www.geophysica.fi/pdf/geophysica_1982_19_1_075_ahti.pdf

In reply to Lone Rider: Reminds me of Bob Dylan song
"A hard Rime 's goin' to form"

In reply to Lone Rider: By the way Mr Edwards just making the pieces for the morn. Get the kettle on about 10.

In reply to Lone Rider:

There's a picture of a rimed up window there.......

In reply to Lone Rider:

Slackers.

In reply to Auld Nick: Oh...... that was a typo?

In reply to Robert Durran:
Its a conspiracy. J'accuse monsieur Blobb of planting that there and secretly email the lone rider so it looks casual like.
Right I have to go and make a bigger piece and pack my back for a new route on shist in the morning. I will report my finding late tommorow evening as to whether it was rimed up. As i see it i can argue an ethical ascent either way if i rig Bob's experiemt.
However it can be of little interest to this thread as it is far far away and the only thing that it will have in common is that I will miss pronounce both venues names according to Donald.
Much love
James e

In reply to James Edwards: new route? never forget the NW moratorium.. prob done before mate

on a side note, remember your windscreen scraper for the motor

In reply to Chadders:

Hi, just wondering if anyone's been up over this weekend. Are the buttresses looking white at all, particularly mess of pottage area or alternatively up to lochain. Thinking of heading up for a short day tomorrow.

Any help appreciated

Jon

YIn reply to Jon Wylie: Lochan was hored up nIcely today. Lots Of snow as well.

In reply to Jon Wylie:

I visited the new crag of Creagan Cha-No today for a bit of a Northern Cairngorms change. Good climbing conditions over there, well worth a visit?

http://elementsgb.wordpress.com/

In reply to Jon Wylie: Take look at :
http://teamascent.blogspot.com/ and http://dan-goodwin.blogspot.com/2012/01/winter-refresh-cairngorm-conditions...

reply to Robert Durran:
I think you will find that it is surface hoar on the window and not rime ice, as James is quite correct to say glass doesn't rime. His theory on roughness affecting speed of riming makes total sense, as will be seen comparing a new sling next to a furry old one - the furry one rimes much more quickly - and the same appears to be true on rock.

In reply to Chadders: thanks for the info there guys

In reply to James Edwards:

Unfortunately the Rime Stone Cowboys didn't find any Rime just very compact rock and lots of not very consolidated snow so continued up any easy gully and did a hill instead.

In reply to Chadders: I did Crotched gully yesterday and it was ok though the second pitch was devoid of snow ice and turf so had to bypass it. The top section had a good buildup of snow and ice.

There were a nnumber of parties on the Runnel and I beleive a BIG boulder came off it nearly wiping out a couple of them! No body hurt!

It's not perfect climbing yet but it's worth a trip if you're in two minds. I have also heard that Lochan has a good selection of climbs worth doing.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:
that said it could be worth waiting a few weeks too couldn't it. Next week is currently 50/50 chance of northerly winds!

In reply to Chadders:

For anyone who's interested: conditions on pot of gold very good yesterday: turf frozen, rimed up, not too much snow so didn't need much cleaning. The entry pitch was much harder than when I did it last year for the message as not much build up. Basically, steeper mixed stuff looked good in mosyot places but gullies didn't from where we were.
Thanks again to those who offered conditions info Sunday night, managed to steal a great wee day after my mates nightshift-much appreciated.

We also saw an enormous boulder crash to the bottom of the coire. I don't think it was from the runnel though: fall line looked like it had come from just right of Jacobs ladder. Gives you the heebyjeebies even if your nowhere near it!

In reply to Jon Wylie: Hi. That boulder came out out of the Runnel and went between me and another chap belaying at the bottom of the tridents. We were only about 3 feet apart, so quite a close call. Size was akin to a paving slab; so enough to break your leg had it hit.

Did first pitch of the Runnel. Good snow, ice and froxen turf. Ran in to a queue so nipped right to Crotched (traverse pitch frozen turf at II). Top of Crotched good snow ice.

In reply to cannichoutdoors: Maybe microwave would be a better description.

In reply to higherclimbingwales: We were in lochan over the weekend,not as much snow as previous years,unconsolidated on the milky way,great fun though and well worth the trip,plenty of people out and completing routes.

In reply to cannichoutdoors:

That sounds bloody terrifying. Mind you, I guess you didn't have much time to think about it! I might've done a Monty python and "run away!"

Sounds like a good day otherwise

Jon

In reply to cannichoutdoors: I didn't see it or know about it until my partners mentioned it later. glad it missed as that would have done a lot of mischief, no doubt!

In reply to Chadders: Anyone been into Clova recently?

In reply to radioshed: Considering how wet and black Corrie an t-Sneachda is I'd doubt it