UKC

It's the middle of winter and I'm starting to think about the summer.

I reckon I want to do all (OK, a lot) of the big, quality, clean E3s at Gogarth.

Anyone want to help put a ticklist together? Would be nice to have an idea of difficulty order too. Rhoscolyn is in, by the way. The only one I've already done is The Sun (which felt like E3 to me). I had a go at This Year's Model, but got lost before I got on the route, so that one's high on the list. Like the look of Assassin too (if that's the one you get a good view of from Nightride). I'm best at wall climbing, but don't mind Gogarth craks...but I'm terrified of the chimney pitch on Rat Race and will let my partner lead that when then time comes.

Cheers.

In reply to Jon Stewart: Strike. I think that gets E3 now. The gear is really good on this one but the start is very powerful so I would say it was quite high in the grade difficulty wise. I have done the Mask of Red Death at Roscolyn as well. This was very nice and probably mid to low in the grade.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Big Groove obviously
The Moon - even more obviously!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Centrefold
Big Groove Direct
South Sea Bubble
The Mask of the Red Death
Strike
Redshift
Supercrack
Wendigo

The Sun, used to be E3 `soft for the grade` or hard E2 !

In reply to Bulls Crack:

Indeed. I've done The Moon, but forgot it's E3 (because it's E1!).

In reply to mr mills:

Ta - quite a few there I'm not familiar with, will look'em up. Any particularly hard or easy in that lot?

I've had a look at Supercrack - looks brilliant.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Winking crack is amazing too.

Tim.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Syringe, Kalahari, Wonderwall, The Sind.

There's a list in the guide, surely?!

jcm

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Lets say E2 but brillant!

Fantasia - pushy on the first pitch, steady top pitch

In reply to loundsy:

But Winking Crack is only E2 or certainly one of the easiest E3s around.

Looking at my guide I seem to have done routes that are either easier than E3 or somewhat harder!

Strike
The Big Groove
High Pressure gets E4 but is very steady really
South Sea Bubble
Wendigo
The Sind

And for the real connoisseur:

Dislocation Dance

ALC

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Supercrack is superb, I thought it was quite straightforward if you like cracks, first 5m overhangs slightly, crux, then the angle eases to give pleasant climbing around E1 after the first 10m !

Have not done Wonderwall yet but have been told it it`s more sustained it is E3 6a though, all we need now is some sunshine weather been pish here for some weeks now

mills

In reply to Jon Stewart: Surprise nobody has mentioned T Rex yet.

In reply to Jon Stewart: Winking Crack is really good, and only soft if you have a big cam and offwidth ability. South Sea Bubble is good too, and massively soft - soft for E2 even if you wander off left at the ledge near the top. The Assassin is also fantastic, but also soft. The guidebook photo and description make it out to be way more desperate than it is. E3 because its on the Main Wall I think, and its long, not for the climbing.
'20,000 Leagues Under the Sea' needs a mention! Brilliant little route, unusual style for the area, and even a bit stiff at the grade. Three stars. Get on it.

In reply to Jon Stewart: 'Sai Dancing' on Holyhead Mountain is another really good E3 that absolutely deserves the grade. And the classic 'Penny' next to it is brilliant too, and though it gets E4 its E3 really.

In reply to Jon Stewart: All these mentioned so far are good,

If you like off-width traditional lines, not many get finer than T-Rex.

Not sure what grade Wendigo gets but also very good adventure.

I did Blue remembered hills on Red Walls this year, big adventure.
Also Fantasia is a stella climb.

Infidel looks awesome, I really want to climb it this year, although the first pitch is horrendous, having previous done Pagan that shares the same start.

Kalahari is another good line.

South Sea Bubble on North Stack Wall.

For utter weirdness, then you should get inside the cryptic rift and climb dislocation dance. (wen zawn area).

Super Crack in Easter island gully is a nice line, only a single pitch though.

Also doesn't Strike get E3, another one on my to do list.

In reply to a lakeland climber:


I found it very hard (early off-widthing days!), I thought I was going to have a heart attack when I finally made it up that slot and flopped onto the belay!

Good Choice

In reply to mr mills: I would also recommend big groove direct if you can get it - very very top end e3/low e4? The upper groove though is amazing, and you can run pitch 2 and 3 together to make one mega pitch (50m rope just makes it to a small but good belay).
The moon is at the other end of e3 but completely awesome.

In reply to Jon Stewart: Not sure whether or not these are still E3 any more, but I remember these as superb :-

Pagan
L/H Red Wall
Hysteresis
The Needle
Camel
Big Groove
Moon
T Rex
Wonderwall

In reply to Jon Stewart: I have plans on Wendigo this summer, that sounds very good.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Well there is, but it's absolutely no substitute for personal recommendations with the grade debates and discussion of the character and condition of the routes that you get on when you ask people on here. And no, that doesn't diminish the experience for me. When I'm climbing at the top of my grade on a serious crag, I rather like knowing what I'm getting into. I also like the route to be clean, dry and if possible, chalked

Plus, I have the selective N Wales guide, and I'd like to get some recommendations outside that - some above (thanks).

And Gogarth E3s are the kind of routes that people are passionate about and enjoy discussing.

In reply to jacobjlloyd:

Great stuff. I avoid offwidths like the plague, so will leave Winking Crack until I've done all the others. There's probably E5s out there I've got a better chance on.

In response to the T-Rex recommenders:

Didn't realise T-Rex was an offwidth? One that you layback though, I take it? One to go for if the less aggressive ones go well I guess.

In reply to Phill Mitch:

Hmmmm. Along with Winking Crack, anything on Red Walls is last on the list. Still haven't done Red Wall or Mousetrap, which I think will be my fill of loose Gogarth goodness.

In reply to Goucho: Whoa now. The Camel is no way E3. Ridiculous notion. More like E5..?!?!?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Rat Race - what's that like at E3? Looks very tempting, and this thread has got me thinking about a sea cliff summer as well...

In reply to Mark Reeves:

Mark, where does dislocation dance start and finish? I'm guessing you an into the start of the hvs (the rift?) I done that earlier in the year and couldn't work out where it went, do you scramble into the rift and an off the in situ sling? It's high on my list as it gets 2stars so must be really good.

Centurion05

In reply to Jon Stewart:



The first pitch of T-Rex turns to soap in the wrong conditions. If it's not dry when you get down there, do something else!

In reply to Jon Stewart: Apologies for any repetition but:

Mask of Red Death - Superb, especially upper section, should definitely be done in one pitch. Low in the grade but 'out there' at the top though good kit nearby.

Centrefold - Again superb, I thought this was a notch harder than Mask of Red Death though there was a crashing sea beneath me after we abbed in so I guess that adds to things. Does need a bit of commitment pulling through the bulge though. Reasonably sustained and bit steeper than it looks. Good gear throughout.

FWIW I thought The Sun was E3 too and not the easiest either as some would suggest.

An 'easy' E3 I have done at Gogarth is Kalahari, really good, steady, open climbing. Just feels a bit tricky after you step right into the short groove. Difficulties are short lived.

Holyhead has some good E3s: Sai Dancing is brilliant and at the harder end of E3, but very well-protected (slight sense of urgency / don't fall off at the start however). I thought it might be 6b going right at the top and the final pod is awkward. Really worthwhile.

Just left of that is The Final Solution (previously known as Penny which is now the name for Katana) at E3 5c. Really good and shares a chunk of climbing with Sai Dancing. Again, very good gear and this saves hardest to last, bit of oomph needed to exit the crack. Low in the grade though does have quite a big feel.

Nearby is Big Jim: physical and short-lived but with a sense of urgency, good gear with slightly bouldery climbing for the crux. Safe to fall off. Hard.

Strike on the Upper Tier is exceptional, really suits my preferences. Has been E4 but should feel 'easy' if you're fit and can hang around to get gear in (bombproof large runners). If not E4 then at the harder end of E3.

I haven't done much else (anything!) at E3 on Gogarth - must do better next year! I have seconded Wonder Wall at Easter Island Gully, this felt hard and with a very on / off crux, though it wasn't great conditions and I often get tangled up when seconding.

Good luck with the quest, hope to see you on Rat Race...

In reply to ksjs:


Sadly very apt...

In reply to ksjs: Just read the thread and 2 things:

I seconded The Sind main pitch last year: stunning and what a setting, Yellow Walls' architecture is a sight to behold. I guess this is 'easy' but I thought it wasn't though again I was seconding.

You're nearly always in balance but you end up slightly contorted due to the looming left wall that bounds the pitch and your left shoulder! If you're used to this style then it probably is easy but the gear wasn't awe-inspiring (but you never look that closely when taking it out) and the rock verges on dubious in some places.

Supercrack: I thought this was tough and E3, especially tricky if damp down there. Good gear low down and steadier but less good gear up top. Easy E3 with right conditions?

T-Rex and Rat Race have to get done this year, I see I mention 'next year' above, I meant 'this year'

In reply to Goucho:

Nice thread.....

Indeed, Pagan is extremely memorable & a route finding masterpiece. Deservedly given E4.

The Camel is also solid E4.

Syringe is worth a mention....now given E4 but more E3.

Sex Lobster is amazing, hidden away in Easter Island. However its a real sandbag at E3.

Big Groove Direct is far superior to the original & the logical line but solid E4 (IMO).

For an amazing day out avoiding the (sometimes) greasy starts & taking in the most impressive territory on the main cliff try Trunkline.
Four or five excellent pitches with a neat trick to protect the descent of the alien chimney. Given E3(?) but most feel E4.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
Lots of good E3's at South Stack, many of them quite soft (in both senses of the word). Wendigo, the Sind and the Moon are all 5b and steady (probably E2). Blue Remembered Hills, Fantasia, LH red wall and Pergyl pack more of a punch and probably deserve E3. Red Haze, Rapture of the Deep, Pagan and Dogs or War are a step up again (Hard E3/E4).

All very memorable though, and will stick in the mind for an awful long time. Don't be put off, the style of climbing takes a bit of getting used to but the rewards are immense

In reply to Goucho:

Thanks for the warning that these may no longer be graded E3 - though I would suspect that from a Goucho post anyhow

Hysteresis, an E4 5c in Mousetrap Zawn, wasn't exactly what I had in mind...I'm sure it's an amazing route, gets a fantastic write-up, but I might wait until I'm tired of Main Cliff and explored some of the areas more 'adventurous' cliffs before I attempt that one.

In reply to ksjs: Thanks for all those. Yes, Yellow Walls is amazing, I had forgotten about The Sind and Creeping Lemma (E2?) 'til this thread.

I've wanted to do Mask of the Red Death for ages but never got round to it.

I've done Kalahari too, again, not E3 I thought but a great route. I love the scenery down at the bottom of Castle Helen, especially around that huge cave/roof thing to the right - one of my favourite crags anywhere.

In reply to Dave Ferguson: There are quite a few Red Wall recommendations on here. I've met several good climbers who refuse to climb there, and to be honest, that does really put me off. Late this summer, I'll do Red Wall and Mousetrap and see what I think of the style; sounds like a bit of marmite thing?

In reply to centurion05: Its is an odd route, as it finishes about 8m away from where it starts. You head down into the the rift to a ledge, step across the zawn and climb the opposite wall, Good flake feature, until a hard pull into a cave, from there you climb on the other wall of the zawn, and after a few moves back and foot back out to day light.

Utter wierdness, that can stay dry in the damp.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Don't let it. The Red Walls are pure adventure. Good to have a bit of a margin. I'd leave Pagan till you've got a few others under your belt. As Rich Kirby pointed out, it's quite representative of that fearsome grade, E4 5c.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

TBH the routes on Red Walls aren't that bad, I'd describe the rock as "variable", some of the routes are solid but others have sections that you can rub the rock away with your fingers! The red colour is a tough skin, dunno how it's been deposited, but behind this is a yellowish rock which is soft. If the route's mainly on the red stuff then it's generally OK, if it follows a yellow weakness then be prepared for a scarefest.

The approach can be the scariest part of it.

ALC

In reply to Rich Kirby:

Especially with the only pro between the crux and the deck being a very sea washed peg

In reply to kevin stephens: Think I might leave that one off this year's list, but no doubt I'll do it one day.

In reply to Goucho:

Only one mention of The Needle which gets 3*, but isn't in my selective guide. UKC says high in the grade, as with Syringe at E3/4 - these are the routes I'd love to be getting on by the end of the summer: meaty, Main Cliff expeditions.

To all: a couple of questions:

- How does 20,000 leagues compare to Zeppelin (Mother Careys)?
- Do you reckon a winter of training on indoor routes and stuff is helpful for Gogarth E3s, or would you say that only experience can prepare you for that? I ask because I don't normally train stamina at all (usually just boulder indoor and out in winter), but this year I'm doing laps on routes, PE circuits etc. I don't think I normally fail on routes because I run out of puff and can normally hang on for hours (as my belayers will testify) so I'm a bit sceptical that it'll help...but if it makes 5c feel easier, it should have some effect?

In reply to Jon Stewart: Haven't done Zeppelin, but it looks fantastic! A different Pembroke route to compare 20,000 leagues to might be 'The Butcher': It is a bit harder but not dissimilar in style. Good, holds and good gear, so no problem if you're wall trained and can hang about on jugs.

All training probably helps, but often gogarth routes offer a different sort of challenge in my experience. Sometimes its full body pump and exhaustion rather than finger failure that has you off. But more stamina means more time to relax and puzzle out a sequence, and more beans to throw at it once you've got one. And that has got to be a good thing. Training doesn't make you better like climbing does, but then climbing lots of E2s doesn't necessarily make you able to climb E3s either. However seeing as you're bouldering v6 and doing stamina training, there is probably no E3 out there that will defeat you physically, or even any E4... the critical factors will be psychological fortitude and pure climbing skill.

In reply to jacobjlloyd:

Totally inspired by 20,000 leagues now!

True, that.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
There are a few treats in store for you boy! As Jon says, don't be put off routes at South Stack -I well remember following his lead on Pagan, as a young apprentice!
As for E3's here's a few to fuel your dreams:

South Sea Bubble - you'll be glad to gain the crack
T Rex - a dry wriggle, you hope, and commit to the layback
Wonderwall - the harder of the Easter Island pair
Super Crack - there's one more technical move near the top Mr Mills
The Needle - doesn't let up
The Big Groove
The Rat Race
Aardvark/Achilles - class combo
Winking Crack
Strike
Kalahari - the main pitch eases off but remains exciting
Infidel - Wintringham class
Wendigo - soft at the grade, in both respects
Blue Remembered Hills - once you've done the easier two either side of it
Fantasia - another great one from Ben
The Moon

And Rhoscolyn for:
The Sun - there's a bolt anchor somewhere at the top, shocking
The Mask of the Red Death - start from directly below, a little friable but better than starting on the left and a bit more direct for a oner
Centrefold - avoid til the sun has come round to dry it

That lot should keep you entertained. You'll have to wait for Ground Ups Gogarth South for the graded list.

In reply to JamieH:


Oof, that was a cold day Jamie - and three of us. Madness!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Actually, another really good one I'm not sure anyone has mentioned is Deygo. It does involve doing pitch one of Pagan though (the true crux IMHO and following one of the yellower bits someone mentioned above...).

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

The first pitch of Deygo is the crux pitch of Pagan? Are you sure you've got that right John? It's sandy and pokey (and the belay used to be a six inch nail driven in to the sandy stuff!) but it's easy 5b at most whereas the upper two pitches are 5c.

ALC

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Might be leaving the yellower parts of Red Walls for a couple of years. I know I'll love RW when I get into it (it's the kind of thing I like), but I think for operating at at or near my limit, "yellow" "cheesy" and "sandy" and "loose" will be kinds of rock I avoid for a little while.

Can't wait to do Mousetrap though. Have wanted to do it since I first got Hard Rock. I imaging most of the really disgusting stuff has been pulled off that by now, as with Red Wall itself (the E2), while the rarer delights of Deygo,BRH etc are more "variable"?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Red wall, whilst physically a bit harder, involves a lot less cheese and talcum powder than mousetrap - having done both I'd say mousetrap had a red:cheese ratio higher than I'm really comfortable with - Red Wall is perhaps a better intro...?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: There are lots of different ways to describe the 1st pitch of Deygo, however 'really good' would not possibly be one of them - unless you're into weetabix mixed with the contents of a child's sandpit

Mind you, it certainly does have a certain 'atmosphere' about it, which is especially true of the belay at the end of it!!!!!

But despite this, Pagan is undoubtably superb.

In reply to Jon Stewart: I'm sure they were all E3 when I did them - mind you, 'friends' didn't mean cams when i did them either, and Mousetrap was a lovely romp at HVS 5a!!!!!!

Hysteresis is a great route, although I will admit it's rather bold in the odd place for an old style
E3

In reply to Jon Stewart: I think Mousetrap is one of the routes you do that you will never forget. I was not keen when I did it but really glad I did. Have you done the strand? That's really good, I know your looking for E3 but.....

In reply to Phill Mitch: The Strand was one of the first routes I did at Gogarth. It's great, and it looks impressive for sure, but being away from the sea and lacking in any sketchiness (all big holds, gear all over, super-obvious at all times) it wasn't a very memorable route for me. Toiler on the Sea, earlier the same day, sticks out far more in my memory: as an introduction to sea cliff climbing, it was terrifying.

In reply to a lakeland climber:

>The first pitch of Deygo is the crux pitch of Pagan? Are you sure you've got that right John?

Matter of taste, perhaps. I reckon it's the one fewest people would want to lead, put it that way.

jcm

In reply to Jon Stewart:

That's an interesting perspective, Jon. You make it seem that you don't like to be completely in control of the situation, you don't like to feel at ease, to enjoy the climbing in the moment and that you'd rather enjoy the route in retrospect having been scared silly? Or have I misunderstood? Personally, I prefer to enjoy the climbing whilst I'm doing it, rather than wobbling my way from crisis to crisis. Serious question.

In a way, The Eternal Optimist, if you haven't done it, though quite a bit easier than the other routes that have been mentioned here might suit. Once started you look up and see a perfect nut placement, only to find when you get there that it's not... but looking up you see a perfect nut placement, but it isn't etc etc - hence the name.

In reply to Jon Stewart: I did mouse trap and the strand on the same day, loved them both. Mouse trap for its adventure and possition, and the strand for a total secure feeling after spending the morning on mouse trap!