UKC

Steve House is in the process of setting up this cool Alpine Mentor scheme. The idea is to help young alpinists, mainly from the US, progress into the next House or Haley.

http://www.alpinementors.org/

The would like applicants to be able to lead 5.11 trad and M7 quickly and efficiently.

One of the questions in application form is below.

You are climbing the 1938 route on the north face of the Eiger. The first day you manage to get to Death bivouac, half way up the route. That night a storm comes in and you are pinned down for 3 days. You started with three days of food and fuel, but by being careful, you have saved a small amount of both. You have a partner of equal experience, 6 cams, 4 pitons, 6 nuts, 4 ice screws, and 2 60 meter ropes. You have no radio or cell phone and no chance for outside help. It is 10 degrees F and has snowed 12" in the past 24 hours. What is going through your mind and what would you do?

It seems a very bizare and slightly stupid question. Especially considering:
-The Eiger isn't remote.
-There is Cell Phone reception on the face. So it is pretty reckless/stupid to leave the phone at home. Accidents do happen and who wants to die when they go climbing?
-The Eiger has a ruddy great tunnel going through the middle of it so you don't even have to abseil to the ground.
-If you and your partner are good enough to onsight 5.11 and M7 you should be doing the eiger in a day not in 3!
-There is a pretty good and reliable weather forecast for the Eiger. Only a fool wouldn't read it or ignore it.

My answer would be avoid the situation by not being on the face in bad conditions with a bad forecast.

What would you do?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I'd go rock climbing in Provence, Tom. Oh, I'm already here...

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I'm wondering if this is a troll

I think you should do a bit of reading on the Eiger and previous ascents/failures.

From what I have read:

-The Eiger isn't remote.
This is irrelevant. it is a shear face inaccessible in poor conditions in 1938 people could train a telescope on the face and the train line existed it didn't help the many who died in storms

-There is Cell Phone reception on the face. So it is pretty reckless/stupid to leave the phone at home. Accidents do happen and who wants to die when they go climbing?
This is an exercise, not real life and most phone batteries would not survive the cold for 3 days

-The Eiger has a ruddy great tunnel going through the middle of it so you don't even have to abseil to the ground.

Easy to find in a white out is it?

-If you and your partner are good enough to onsight 5.11 and M7 you should be doing the eiger in a day not in 3!
Have you never taken longer than you expected to on a route? If not you are due a rude awakening. P.s. Even at those grades things go wrong, and you are not Ueli Steck

-There is a pretty good and reliable weather forecast for the Eiger. Only a fool wouldn't read it or ignore it.
It is notorious for being quickly enveloped in storms that were not previously forecast.


Despite many successful attempts and several death free years the Eiger remains one of the most serious propositions in the Alps

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1517471.stm

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

So what. I fail to see the relevance.


Strange comment. If you were absolutely determined not to die climbing, you wouldn't want to go on the Eiger at all. Your cell phone might have failed, or been dropped, or the batteries might have run down through updating your facebook status after every pitch. You might have chosen to not carry a cell phone on ethical grounds.


The tunnel is quite low down and requires a traverse to reach it. Might be better abbing to the bottom.


The Eiger requires much more geeneral skills to climb it fast than these "crag" numbers. Even very good climbers won't climb the Eiger in a day in less than very good conditions - you might wait for ever to get the conditions to climb it in excellent conditions. If you go fast and light, you're probably f****d if a storm comes in anyway.


Forecasts can be wrong. S**t happens.


Tricky one.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Interesting answer.

BTW - I read your article on your ascent the other day and thought it was a brilliant and totally absorbing personal account.

Do you have a copy you could email me? I'd like to show it to a friend.

Cheers,

Tom

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Unless you want him to just bin your application form I wouldn't go explaining why his question is stupid and doesn't make sense to you. Instead I would look at it as a theoretical question.

The Eiger may not be remote but if you were half way up the face in a storm it might as well be the most remote location in the world because nobody is going to be able to get close to you.

I think the point of the question is to determine what you would do to save yourself and others with you in a perilous situation, the setting is just incidental and the stipulations are just there to give you parameters within which to answer.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Isn't it simply a decision between trying to go up or trying to go down? At guess down is better due to knowing the ground, the possibility of abseiling and greater chance of being seen from below?

I think jon has the best idea though...

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I hope you don't approach job applications with the same view.

Just answer the question.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Thanks!

I'll see what I can do - would need to scan it.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

>"What is going through your mind and what would you do?"

I'd be thinking, "what would Don Willians do?" Then make for the gallery window.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I would be wondering why on earth I had gone up there in the first place, especially with a partner who was just as inept as me! Also, I would wonder why I had gone back to the 1960s and started measuring snowfall in inches and temperature in farenheit.

In reply to ajsteele:

Yes. When I was in a not too dissimilar situation on the face to the one described (long before the days of cell phones,) being able to hear the sound of piste bashers etc, yet knowing that we were utterly alone and probably beyond help in our predicament was really quite surreal.

In reply to ClimberEd:
>

If he wanted you to answer the question he should have set it on 1800m hypothetical north face in a remote situation, with no phone signal.

Answering the question without thinking about how to avoid the situation in the first place is pretty foolish in my opinion.

In reply to MG:

It might be better to go up rather than risk avalanches on the icefields. Much above Death Bivouac you'd probably be best climbing out anyway. Recrossing the Second Icefield could be a total nightmare.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I suspect the answer is not...

I'd be thinking, "what would Bear Grylls do?" Then cut open my climbing partner and sleep inside his carcase for warmth.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

That's a different question.

- what did you do wrong

vs

- how would you get out of this

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

p.s. FWIW I'd try and climb out at that point.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

This question about the Eiger N Face might well be an intentionally tricky question rather than a 'stupid' one as you have commented- on a public forum read by many. Your comment is also easily searchable by Mr House himself if he did a quick Google.
Bit of a fail there, mate?
He could have picked any big N Face or huge technical climb to assess your response but since he has picked the Eiger it's probably to weed out people who might be more inclined to call for help rather than be self- sufficient?
Colin Haley is famous for his huge Patagonian and Alaskan adventures after all?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Would you not be skirting across the top of the second ice field to ab down the rote fluh?

http://www.alpine-guides.com/blog/blogpics/184.jpg

In reply to JLS:

I'd definitely be doing what Bear'd be doing: staying in the finest hotel in Grindelwald, sipping ice cold beer, feeling sorry for the poor bastards on the face.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I guess in a round about way he is looking for the same guille and tenacity, shown by the pioneers, they forced this route in those conditions many times over, without the advances in gear to start with.

The way the face is climbed these days is quite iluminating, a procession of ascents in nearly perfect conditions, quite often following a track, no clearing, no doubt, it is hardly suprising it is climbed in a day.

I remember this quote of his by Yukio mishima -

"although the core of the apple exists, it can not be seen from the outside, the only way to prove the cores existance is to cut it open, when the apple, or body bleeds, and dies the existance of the core is confirmed"

In reply to JLS:

I still wouldn't fancy it much...... I doubt you'd want to ab blind down the Rote Fluh!

In reply to Robert Durran:

I guess your first hand experience trumps my arm chair theory!

Can anyone remember from where Don Willians retreat started and from where he abbed to avoid the hindterstrol (sp?) traverse?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
i think the part "whats going through your mind" is the important bit to dwell upon and if you take everything into consideration (food supply, equipment left,energy levels and risk factors) and come to a conclusion/course of action it might not be what others would do but isn't neccasarily wrong !
The answer is irrelavent its the rational thoughts that give you the conclusion thats important IMO

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

It's minus 12c and you won't survive much longer staying where you are. There's 12" of fresh unconsolidated snow. Possibly fresh powder given the temperature. So you need to make the decision on your best exit strategy given your food and equipment, experience, and the conditions. What are the avalanche risks? What are the difficuulties if you ascend? What are the difficulties if you attempt descent? How useful is the gear that you have, where could be be used in each exit strategy? Which strategy gives you best chance of success?

In reply to PaleMan:

plenty of quetions, what about an answer?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: I'd probably wake up.

In reply to tom290483:

Maybe there isn't one. At least not one that doesn't involve ending up dead. Just like the whatsamajig test in Star Trek - 'Spock' House is trying to prepare his cadets for a no-win situation; Mr 'Kirk' Ripley has neatly circumvented the situation by thinking outside the box and electing not to be in the situation in the first place.
Which, by the way, I imagine is a course of action of which 'Yoda' Twight would approve.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

seems fairly straight forward a question really. a basic scenario.

i dont know the route at all (but would to a degree if i were in such a jam) it likes like youve got maximum 20 anchors give or take in-situ gear and slings on spikes (if such exist on the route) and anchors that need more than a single placement.
with 2 60ms that gives about 1200m of rapelling capacity, which by the looks of it is more than needed.

with all that id say youve got a reasonable amount of gear to make it to the gallery windows which is a bit over half the way back down, tho a slightly off-route traverse which will demand day light and attention.
as contingency im trying to save on gear in case we miss it.

im not going up or traversing out, so down is the sanest option. im not overly worried about food as skimping for 4 days isnt too big a deal (remember there was a day of climbing before the storm hit), but im not hanging on any longer if the snows stopped.
once the coldest part of the night hits im getting out.

whats going thru my head?
lots.
what did i miss in the weather report mostly.
im going to be focussing hugely on our ropework systems as we go down, to minimize gear left and rig as fast and clean as possible.
im watching my buddy for mistakes and signs of problems.
im freaking out about the icefields we have to cross
im probably thinking of andy kirkpatrick and what would he do.

all this rings harrowingly reminiscent of the 2 that died on the GJ a few months back...

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
I'd answer the question as it is asked (and my answer would be retreat - the Eiger is accessible enough that there is no need to take further risks when so much has gone against you already), but then consider other scenarios where you might consider going for the summit - i.e. differant peak on a differant continent and a once in a lifetime oppurtunity.

But then again, like Jon, I'd rather be rock climbing somewhere sunny!

In reply to ice.solo:


Lots of in-situ gear on it, according to all the photos I've seen. Never been on it (miles off being that good) but it sees a lot of traffic and all these speed climbing attempts have seen quite a fair bit of pegs and rope on the route.

In reply to mattrm: im not familiar with the route (other than in an armchair sense), but would have thought with 12 inches of snow fallen it may be best to push on. Any abseil points may be buried and difficult to locate and you run the risk of disturbing snow above you and causing avalanche. Just a thought. Then again.....

In reply to nufkin: twight as yoda...! lol

In reply to thommi:

i wondered the same.

my reservations (which i wouldnt set off on such a venture without investigating) being:

- there appears to be a series of chimneys, ice fields and the longish summit ice field to ascend thru

- what options exist with other routes to descend off (or a cable car for all i know...)

- if it took a day to the death bivvy, it looks like another day minmum (in decent conditions) to top out then descend.
we are 4 days into 3 days worth of food and FUEL (my main concern) so may not much enjoy another night out on top of what it took to get there, with 'there' being further into the predicament and possibly leaving gear behind or at least stretching whats left for any descent to be made.
(again, some cable car off the back alters this decision).

its true that rapping off and crossing a few icefields in that much snow looks grim.
angle on that would be timing things for the coldest period, the direction of travel is the most direct and the possibility (i dont know how realistic this is but would have a better idea if i were there) of bivvys on the descent in the ice fields.

anyone out there been on the damned route to lend an insight?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Armchair Alert!
I am yet to climb the Eiger, it has been on my wish list since I was 14. I've spoken to many people who have climbed it (summer & winter) and read just about every book on it (Havn't read Haston's book on it but I will).

Whats going through my mind?
After 3 days of being battered by a storm on the Eiger, I'd be fairly mentally and physically jarred (I spent 2 days on the Matterhorn storm bound in winter - pretty f#cked after that). I'd be cold and hungry having not had full rations, probably not had too much sleep so that will add to the mentally jarred bit.
What state is my mate in? Is still capable of looking out for me and me for him?
Options - Up, down or stay where I am?

Up - The consensus seems to be that the Entry pitch onto the ramp is pretty tough (N Bullock thought it was the hardest pitch by a long way on his ascent), am I capable of that in my current state?
- all exposed rock will be covered in powder making the climbing and protecting all the harder.
- The Spider will be sloughing powder snow avalanches continuiously, danger city.
- The exit cracks aren't a walk in the park (so I'm told).
- Is weather a prelude to the Fohn wind? ie thaw coming followed by a hard freeze. Powder melts and forms a verglas all over the face. Therefore making the face unclimbable.

Down - The next safe belay is the swallows nest - can I make it there in a day?
- Crossing the 2nd ice field is going to be like (quoting Don Whillans) "like driving the wrong way up a one-way street, the further you go the deeper into the shit you go". With 1' of powder coming down from above and lying on the ice field it's going to be a death march.
- The Harlin Route intersects with the 1938 route at the Death Bivi. They had fixed anchors at the belays (expansion bolt). If I was familiar with the route (had description) would this be an option for descent? But with the powder covering the route they are going to be hard to find, plus they are nearly 50yrs old.

Stay where I am - the Death Bivi is about as comfortable a place to sit out a storm as anywhere on the face.
- Sit it out for another 12hrs, if it has stopped snowing then the majority of the snow may have avalanched off.
- However if it starts snowing again then my window of opportunity may have closed.

In conclusion, I would sit it out for 12hrs, hope the majority of the snow avalanches off, hope I and my partner are in a state to look after each other and try and make for the swallows nest at first light.

He who sups with the Devil should have a long spoon.
-

In reply to ice.solo:

If going up is ruled out and re-crossing the second icefield suicidal, then a pretty direct abseil to the windows of the railway station might work (pretty much down the Harlin). This would be a scary journey into the unknown with some wild steep abs.....

In reply to Robert Durran:

And there was me thinking it would be a good idea to climb the face with single 60m 9mm and a 65m 6mm retrevial line.

In reply to Jim Walton:

now thats what we want! informative. cheers JW.

the whole intersecting route thing is especially interesting. any more?

whats the total length/height of the route off the base (glacier, bergshrund, whatever it is)?

In reply to ice.solo: In Haston's Route description for the Direct route, its 45 pitches to Death Bivi.

When they had fixed ropes in place it used to take about 4hrs to abb down from Death Bivi to the end of the difficulties. So I would susspect that neither you nor your partner would know the route and you would have to set up a belays etc you could be looking at 1 - 2 days of descent.

Once you start trying to abb the Harlin, all your eggs are in one basket. You could easily have 30+ abseils to do. I'd be concerned with the amount of kit I had to make them.

As I have not been on the face I can not comment on the features of the rock, Are there many natural horns, spikes threads?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Isn't that what a lot of people now do - you could still do 60m abs (scarily....)

Go fast and light and you are less likely to get into trouble, but if you do get into trouble you sre more likely to be f***** (it is a trade off)>

In reply to ice.solo:

>"the whole intersecting route thing is especially interesting"

http://wspinanie.pl/serwis/200808/01eiger2_sciana_polnocna.php

In reply to JLS:

right...looks like the tokyo subway.

In reply to JLS: I'm not a Whillans expert but i know he backed off the Eiger on a number of occasions. If you've not read Tom Patey's "a short walk with whillans" then i recommend it.

In reply to glaramara:
Yes, a superb set of one liners by Whillans to the Japanese climbers.

In reply to Conquistador of the usless: you mean amphetamines?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: If vis has cleared abseil out down to Hinterstoisser Traverse and thence into the tunnel (Toni Kurz et al nearly made it doing this)...this assumes that all the loose snow makes normal down-climbing to the traverse risky. I'd have to check route down from death bivouac but I think you have some dodgy snowfields to cross, so...

...especially if storm still raging sit it out, if vis is good maybe even sit it out waiting for fresh snow to stabilise - you have some food and fuel left. Once it has run out, reconsider options.

Don't tell them I told you the answer...actually I'm just guessing.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide: Psyche my feet up for friction and dyno for the top?

In reply to mike kann:
We have a winner!