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My friend and I took our first tentative steps outdoors today.
We went to Greator Rocks (the ones close to houndtor, towards haytor)
As we're both sensible / cowards, we decided to find the easiest route we could and top rope it.
Everything I know about anchor building comes from the articles on here, or the BMC website. Anyhows we built it and belayed from the top. Climbed the route a few times but never fell or were lowered so never put our full weight on the anchor.
So I think it was safe but I'd greatly appreciate it if a few of you could give me some pointers. I'll describe it below, but there are a couple pics at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leeeddy/6949004167/in/photostream
So Lets say I was belaying, I tied into my harness with a rethreaded fig 8.
The rope then went out to a small boulder which we put a sling round, it went through a carabiner then back to me where i clove hitched it to a carabiner which was clipped onto my belay rope loop. The rope then went out to 2 nuts, which were connected by a crossed sling, again the rope went through a carabiner then back to me and clove hitched to the same biner already used.
Again if someone could look over the photos to see if there's any problems I'd be very grateful.
One question I do have. Where we put the sling around the boulder, we tied an overhand knot in it and connected the carabiner into the bight. We figured a smaller loop stood less chance of rising up over the boulder (Although the sling was under a good lip.). My concern is the knot made the sling weaker, and also meant a larger angle between the two strands of sling, putting more force onto each one. I'm now assuming that knot was unneccessary but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Oh and it was great fun!
We went to Greator Rocks (the ones close to houndtor, towards haytor)
As we're both sensible / cowards, we decided to find the easiest route we could and top rope it.
Everything I know about anchor building comes from the articles on here, or the BMC website. Anyhows we built it and belayed from the top. Climbed the route a few times but never fell or were lowered so never put our full weight on the anchor.
So I think it was safe but I'd greatly appreciate it if a few of you could give me some pointers. I'll describe it below, but there are a couple pics at
http://www.flickr.com/photos/leeeddy/6949004167/in/photostream
So Lets say I was belaying, I tied into my harness with a rethreaded fig 8.
The rope then went out to a small boulder which we put a sling round, it went through a carabiner then back to me where i clove hitched it to a carabiner which was clipped onto my belay rope loop. The rope then went out to 2 nuts, which were connected by a crossed sling, again the rope went through a carabiner then back to me and clove hitched to the same biner already used.
Again if someone could look over the photos to see if there's any problems I'd be very grateful.
One question I do have. Where we put the sling around the boulder, we tied an overhand knot in it and connected the carabiner into the bight. We figured a smaller loop stood less chance of rising up over the boulder (Although the sling was under a good lip.). My concern is the knot made the sling weaker, and also meant a larger angle between the two strands of sling, putting more force onto each one. I'm now assuming that knot was unneccessary but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Oh and it was great fun!
In reply to ledifer:
Just by looking at the image only, personally, I would not have tied a knot in the sling on the left. I'd have just left it around the rock as this would have reduced the overall angle of the sling at the end attached to the crab.
Check out a book called A manual of modern rope techniques.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Manual-Modern-Rope-Techniques-Guides/dp/0094691703
Just don't buy the new copy, as its slightly overpriced by £100.
Just by looking at the image only, personally, I would not have tied a knot in the sling on the left. I'd have just left it around the rock as this would have reduced the overall angle of the sling at the end attached to the crab.
Check out a book called A manual of modern rope techniques.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Manual-Modern-Rope-Techniques-Guides/dp/0094691703
Just don't buy the new copy, as its slightly overpriced by £100.
In reply to ledifer:
The knot was unnecessary, and I'd wonder that the short sling might even be more susceptible to riding off the boulder? As the force is now being applied more sideways than downwards due to the angle it creates - I'd imagine that the longer sling has less of a chance of riding off as the force is being applied downwards. That's just me pondering aloud though...
It all looks ok. My main question would have been how secure was the sling around the boulder, but apparently it was under a decent lip. You've got the idea of how to build it with the rope correct. It's hard to tell what's going on with the nuts from that photo (I can't see what you mean by 'a crossed sling' and there's no way of assessing the placement from that photo), but nothing stands out as being horrifically wrong.
The knot was unnecessary, and I'd wonder that the short sling might even be more susceptible to riding off the boulder? As the force is now being applied more sideways than downwards due to the angle it creates - I'd imagine that the longer sling has less of a chance of riding off as the force is being applied downwards. That's just me pondering aloud though...
It all looks ok. My main question would have been how secure was the sling around the boulder, but apparently it was under a decent lip. You've got the idea of how to build it with the rope correct. It's hard to tell what's going on with the nuts from that photo (I can't see what you mean by 'a crossed sling' and there's no way of assessing the placement from that photo), but nothing stands out as being horrifically wrong.
In reply to ledifer:
When you say crossed sling are you referring to the trick where you put a twist in one strand and let it self equalise?
If so I'd recommend knotting the sling instead to ensure that you don't shock load the remaining nut if the first one fails.
When you say crossed sling are you referring to the trick where you put a twist in one strand and let it self equalise?
If so I'd recommend knotting the sling instead to ensure that you don't shock load the remaining nut if the first one fails.
In reply to ledifer: tying knots in slings (Especially dyneema) weakens the whole sling considerably. you could also consider using clove hitches to attach the rope to your anchor points to help make them independent.
overall well done!
Keep up the good work!
overall well done!
Keep up the good work!
In reply to scottie390:
He has - he's just tied the clove hitch to a krab on his harness rather than to the krabs on the anchor points. It does the exact same thing and is much easier to adjust if the anchors are out of reach of where you want to belay from.
He has - he's just tied the clove hitch to a krab on his harness rather than to the krabs on the anchor points. It does the exact same thing and is much easier to adjust if the anchors are out of reach of where you want to belay from.
In reply to ledifer: looks reet to me from the photo. biggest thing is... were you happy with it? (you must have been). ps. knot unnessesary but it wont weaken owt that much. unless you were taking running jumps onto it off top of crag!!
In reply to ledifer: think its all been said by others, looks fine to me without the knot. can't see the boulder fully on the RHS but I would have been tempted to lob a sling around that as well - bigger the better.
But I'd be happy to put my weight on it!
But I'd be happy to put my weight on it!
In reply to timjones:
Yeah that's what i did. I did think about knotting the sling but on the grounds of redundancy (eg. if the sling snapped at nut 1 it wouldn't affect the sling at nut 2), but since the slings were in open air and in no danger of getting sliced I opted not to in favour of it being easier to equalise. I forgot about it extending and shock loading should one nut fail. Will remember that for next time.
I chose to link the nuts with a sling just to avoid the rope going back and forth and having clove hitches everywhere. Also I chose to have the hitches at my harness as the anchors were out of reach so it made it easier to get the tension right from where I wanted to stand.
Thanks very much guys, oh and I've got that book on order now, 2nd hand for 1p (and 2.80 postage) - bargain!
> (In reply to ledifer)
>
> When you say crossed sling are you referring to the trick where you put a twist in one strand and let it self equalise?
>
> If so I'd recommend knotting the sling instead to ensure that you don't shock load the remaining nut if the first one fails.
>
> When you say crossed sling are you referring to the trick where you put a twist in one strand and let it self equalise?
>
> If so I'd recommend knotting the sling instead to ensure that you don't shock load the remaining nut if the first one fails.
Yeah that's what i did. I did think about knotting the sling but on the grounds of redundancy (eg. if the sling snapped at nut 1 it wouldn't affect the sling at nut 2), but since the slings were in open air and in no danger of getting sliced I opted not to in favour of it being easier to equalise. I forgot about it extending and shock loading should one nut fail. Will remember that for next time.
I chose to link the nuts with a sling just to avoid the rope going back and forth and having clove hitches everywhere. Also I chose to have the hitches at my harness as the anchors were out of reach so it made it easier to get the tension right from where I wanted to stand.
Thanks very much guys, oh and I've got that book on order now, 2nd hand for 1p (and 2.80 postage) - bargain!
In reply to ledifer: Good work :0)...
One minor point is on the two nuts, the forces exerted could possibly lift the bottom nut out of place. The use of a sling in this way means that if one fails then slack will be introduced into the system. The remedy would be to just use the bomber top nut on its own or to tie a knot in the sling to isolate each anchor.
Its always good to go for the two nicest big fat hefty anchors you can find (This doesn't include lasses from Rotherham wearing crop tops, shellsuit bottoms eating chips and curry sauce)
One minor point is on the two nuts, the forces exerted could possibly lift the bottom nut out of place. The use of a sling in this way means that if one fails then slack will be introduced into the system. The remedy would be to just use the bomber top nut on its own or to tie a knot in the sling to isolate each anchor.
Its always good to go for the two nicest big fat hefty anchors you can find (This doesn't include lasses from Rotherham wearing crop tops, shellsuit bottoms eating chips and curry sauce)
In reply to Winterbotty:
Oh and a bigger sling is on the shopping list. The 240cm one looked massive in the shop, the boulders there were bigger though
> (In reply to ledifer) think its all been said by others, looks fine to me without the knot. can't see the boulder fully on the RHS but I would have been tempted to lob a sling around that as well - bigger the better.
> But I'd be happy to put my weight on it!
> But I'd be happy to put my weight on it!
Oh and a bigger sling is on the shopping list. The 240cm one looked massive in the shop, the boulders there were bigger though
In reply to ledifer:
Don't forget, you can use your rope as a sling as well, provided you have enough to spare.
> (In reply to Winterbotty)
> [...]
>
> Oh and a bigger sling is on the shopping list. The 240cm one looked massive in the shop, the boulders there were bigger though
> [...]
>
> Oh and a bigger sling is on the shopping list. The 240cm one looked massive in the shop, the boulders there were bigger though
Don't forget, you can use your rope as a sling as well, provided you have enough to spare.
In reply to The Lemming:
that's a very good point, considering the route was only about 7-8 metres and my rope is 60m , i should be fine.
Cheers, you just saved me £20
that's a very good point, considering the route was only about 7-8 metres and my rope is 60m , i should be fine.
Cheers, you just saved me £20
In reply to ledifer:
Get a copy of Modern Rope Techniques as well. Its a superb book and has everything that you will ever need to know and more.
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> that's a very good point, considering the route was only about 7-8 metres and my rope is 60m , i should be fine.
>
>
> that's a very good point, considering the route was only about 7-8 metres and my rope is 60m , i should be fine.
>
Get a copy of Modern Rope Techniques as well. Its a superb book and has everything that you will ever need to know and more.
In reply to ledifer:
Bare with me as it's hard to tell detail from the pics.....
when you say the two nuts were connected by a crossed sling what do you mean? was it a sliding X? http://rockandice.com/articles/how-to-climb/article/71-climbing-anchors-cli...
If this is the case I'd avoid sliding X as if one nut fails the other extends meaning the anchor to the boulder is no longer qualised at all. You can tie an overhand not here and clip the loops http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2592 (see bottom video for example), or better still use the rope out to each anchor without a sling.
Also the bottom nut doesn't like it may not have great contact to me (the top right hand edge looks to have a gap around it)
the top nut is it wedged against moss or rock? If it is wedged against moss it's normally best to either clean the moss off first or find another placement.
I agree with the other posters the knot in the left sling serves no purpose and probably makes the placement more prone to failure.
Overall the belay is probably sound enough but could be improved on.
Also when belaying remember to sit down if the rope would pull you towards the floor when loaded.
Bare with me as it's hard to tell detail from the pics.....
when you say the two nuts were connected by a crossed sling what do you mean? was it a sliding X? http://rockandice.com/articles/how-to-climb/article/71-climbing-anchors-cli...
If this is the case I'd avoid sliding X as if one nut fails the other extends meaning the anchor to the boulder is no longer qualised at all. You can tie an overhand not here and clip the loops http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2592 (see bottom video for example), or better still use the rope out to each anchor without a sling.
Also the bottom nut doesn't like it may not have great contact to me (the top right hand edge looks to have a gap around it)
the top nut is it wedged against moss or rock? If it is wedged against moss it's normally best to either clean the moss off first or find another placement.
I agree with the other posters the knot in the left sling serves no purpose and probably makes the placement more prone to failure.
Overall the belay is probably sound enough but could be improved on.
Also when belaying remember to sit down if the rope would pull you towards the floor when loaded.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Also as pointed out already the sling is pulling the bottom nut up out of its placement, a longer sling or using only the rope would probably have helped minimise the angle here (along with sitting down when belaying.)
Also as pointed out already the sling is pulling the bottom nut up out of its placement, a longer sling or using only the rope would probably have helped minimise the angle here (along with sitting down when belaying.)
In reply to The Lemming:
It looks fine to me, I wouldn't have knotted the sling either, and wouldn't have put the lower nut in but it's hard to tell from a pic just quite how well placed/what angle etc everything is at. I'd climb on it as it is though
Regarding using the rope, I did this recently and was wondering if I had made the most efficient use of it doing so. I tied a fig.8 in the end, a fig 8 in the rope, andjoined them with a locking carabiner. Then further down the rope I put another fig.8 and locking carabiner, which was used for the top rope. Does that sound about right?
> (In reply to ledifer)
> [...]
>
> Don't forget, you can use your rope as a sling as well, provided you have enough to spare.
> [...]
>
> Don't forget, you can use your rope as a sling as well, provided you have enough to spare.
It looks fine to me, I wouldn't have knotted the sling either, and wouldn't have put the lower nut in but it's hard to tell from a pic just quite how well placed/what angle etc everything is at. I'd climb on it as it is though
Regarding using the rope, I did this recently and was wondering if I had made the most efficient use of it doing so. I tied a fig.8 in the end, a fig 8 in the rope, andjoined them with a locking carabiner. Then further down the rope I put another fig.8 and locking carabiner, which was used for the top rope. Does that sound about right?
In reply to Martin1978:
for top rope purposes a rethreaded figure of eight or bowline (with stopper) is more normal. For belays you can just wrap the rope around the boudler from you tie in and clove hitch the other strand back to yourself once you are in position. This approach can wear your ropes down quicker I have found (especially on rough / sharp rock)
for top rope purposes a rethreaded figure of eight or bowline (with stopper) is more normal. For belays you can just wrap the rope around the boudler from you tie in and clove hitch the other strand back to yourself once you are in position. This approach can wear your ropes down quicker I have found (especially on rough / sharp rock)
In reply to CurlyStevo: Of course, yeah. Skip the locking carabiner and rethread the end of the rope through the figure of eight. Saying that, around a large boulder as this was it would have been a bit of a guess as to where to put the knot.
Cheers, Martin
Cheers, Martin
In reply to Martin1978:
a bowline can help a lot here.
Using your technique how did you connect to the loop you'd formed around the boudler it's best not to split figure of eight knots apart (as they can roll), so it would have been best to tie another figure of eight in the rope (leaving some slack) and attach this to the loop around the boudler using a locking biner. However less links in the chain is generally regarded as a good thing so a bowline would have been a better option really.
a bowline can help a lot here.
Using your technique how did you connect to the loop you'd formed around the boudler it's best not to split figure of eight knots apart (as they can roll), so it would have been best to tie another figure of eight in the rope (leaving some slack) and attach this to the loop around the boudler using a locking biner. However less links in the chain is generally regarded as a good thing so a bowline would have been a better option really.
In reply to ledifer:
Wow, a bomb proof boulder and a couple of nice cracks for gear. Worry instead about topping out to find smooth sloping grass and nowt else. Then things get really tricky ..
Wow, a bomb proof boulder and a couple of nice cracks for gear. Worry instead about topping out to find smooth sloping grass and nowt else. Then things get really tricky ..
In reply to ledifer: Looks like you could do with some work on your gear placement.
Bottom of the two nuts looks a bit suspect. Oh and did you check that the flake which the top nut is behind didnt move?
As others have said, remove the knot in the blue sling and then I'd personally have put a know in the red sling where you've clipped your krab.
Bottom of the two nuts looks a bit suspect. Oh and did you check that the flake which the top nut is behind didnt move?
As others have said, remove the knot in the blue sling and then I'd personally have put a know in the red sling where you've clipped your krab.
In reply to ledifer:
If you ditch the knot in the sling and I was seconding the route then you'd get no complaints from me.
It looks fine, from the image.
If you ditch the knot in the sling and I was seconding the route then you'd get no complaints from me.
It looks fine, from the image.
In reply to The Lemming:
Can you tell how good the sling around the boulder is from that picture? I certianly can't as I can't see the back of the boulder. The other two nuts its very hard to tell how good they are but it looks like the lower one could be improved and the top one may be wedged in against moss. As mentioned the belay looks generally OK (giving the OP the benefit of the doubt) from what we can see but improvements can be made.
Can you tell how good the sling around the boulder is from that picture? I certianly can't as I can't see the back of the boulder. The other two nuts its very hard to tell how good they are but it looks like the lower one could be improved and the top one may be wedged in against moss. As mentioned the belay looks generally OK (giving the OP the benefit of the doubt) from what we can see but improvements can be made.
In reply to The Lemming:
Cheers guys, I have ordered that book Lemming.
The top nut i was very confident in, it wasn't contacting moss. The bottom one looked OK but I wouldn't have wanted to use that alone. I figured I'd include it as an additional bit of protection. Of course if the bottom nut did come out it would have shock loaded the top one. However as you guys have said tying a knot in the sling would have solved that.
Can't wait for the evenings to get brighter now. I finish work at 5 but my climbing buddy doesn't get back till 6 so after work climbs are still gonna be at the wall for a month or so.
Will probably go back to greator rocks next week, there looks to be loads of easy routes which are top-ropable. It's not listed in my guide book though so don't know names or grades, and the ones listed on here don't come with descriptions so don't know which ones are which.
Will work on them whilst practising placing gear and then get on to leading. Wanna look like I know what I'm doing before going to the more "on display" places like haytor and houndtor.
Great fun though, can't wait till next saturday
Cheers guys, I have ordered that book Lemming.
The top nut i was very confident in, it wasn't contacting moss. The bottom one looked OK but I wouldn't have wanted to use that alone. I figured I'd include it as an additional bit of protection. Of course if the bottom nut did come out it would have shock loaded the top one. However as you guys have said tying a knot in the sling would have solved that.
Can't wait for the evenings to get brighter now. I finish work at 5 but my climbing buddy doesn't get back till 6 so after work climbs are still gonna be at the wall for a month or so.
Will probably go back to greator rocks next week, there looks to be loads of easy routes which are top-ropable. It's not listed in my guide book though so don't know names or grades, and the ones listed on here don't come with descriptions so don't know which ones are which.
Will work on them whilst practising placing gear and then get on to leading. Wanna look like I know what I'm doing before going to the more "on display" places like haytor and houndtor.
Great fun though, can't wait till next saturday
In reply to CurlyStevo: I need to learn how to post pics lol. If you drop me an email with your email I can send you a sketch. It would be appreciated, although a bowline makes more sense now. Cheers, martin
In reply to CurlyStevo:
That's why i put it up on here, would've been bloody impressed if I got it perfect 1st time!
The top nut wasn't in moss.
The boulder wasn't quite as big as I was hoping. I was hoping for a "as big as your coffin" boulder. But it had a good lip round the back so the sling wasn't going anywhere.
I guess good nut placement will come with practise (or tagging along with an experienced climber)
> (In reply to The Lemming)
> Can you tell how good the sling around the boulder is from that picture? I certianly can't as I can't see the back of the boulder. The other two nuts its very hard to tell how good they are but it looks like the lower one could be improved and the top one may be wedged in against moss. As mentioned the belay looks generally OK (giving the OP the benefit of the doubt) from what we can see but improvements can be made.
> Can you tell how good the sling around the boulder is from that picture? I certianly can't as I can't see the back of the boulder. The other two nuts its very hard to tell how good they are but it looks like the lower one could be improved and the top one may be wedged in against moss. As mentioned the belay looks generally OK (giving the OP the benefit of the doubt) from what we can see but improvements can be made.
That's why i put it up on here, would've been bloody impressed if I got it perfect 1st time!
The top nut wasn't in moss.
The boulder wasn't quite as big as I was hoping. I was hoping for a "as big as your coffin" boulder. But it had a good lip round the back so the sling wasn't going anywhere.
I guess good nut placement will come with practise (or tagging along with an experienced climber)
In reply to ledifer:
One thing I devised to help people I have taken out as beginners when setting up Belays is the acronym DATES;
Direction of anticipated (and unanticipated but possible!) loading
Anchor selection and placement (quality/quantity spectrum, independence)
Thread anchors (slings, rope etc)
Equalise threads
Secure, clove hitch/tie knots/remove slack, do up screwgates etc
This gives a useful aide memoire as to the principles without being too descriptive as all belays will be different.
Hope this is useful.
Bob
One thing I devised to help people I have taken out as beginners when setting up Belays is the acronym DATES;
Direction of anticipated (and unanticipated but possible!) loading
Anchor selection and placement (quality/quantity spectrum, independence)
Thread anchors (slings, rope etc)
Equalise threads
Secure, clove hitch/tie knots/remove slack, do up screwgates etc
This gives a useful aide memoire as to the principles without being too descriptive as all belays will be different.
Hope this is useful.
Bob
In reply to DerwentDiluted:
The one i was using was NERDSS
No Extension
Redundancy
Distribution
Strength
Simplicity
This is where i got a lot of my info from, other beginners might find it useful as well
http://www.chauvinguides.com/Anchoring.PDF
The one i was using was NERDSS
No Extension
Redundancy
Distribution
Strength
Simplicity
This is where i got a lot of my info from, other beginners might find it useful as well
http://www.chauvinguides.com/Anchoring.PDF
In reply to The Lemming:
There's a newer version out for under a tenner
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Guide-Techniques-Revised-Edition/dp/071122...
>
> Check out a book called A manual of modern rope techniques.
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Manual-Modern-Rope-Techniques-Guides/dp/0094691703
>
> Just don't buy the new copy, as its slightly overpriced by £100.
> Check out a book called A manual of modern rope techniques.
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Manual-Modern-Rope-Techniques-Guides/dp/0094691703
>
> Just don't buy the new copy, as its slightly overpriced by £100.
There's a newer version out for under a tenner
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Guide-Techniques-Revised-Edition/dp/071122...
In reply to ledifer:
Cool sorry wasn't meaning to be over critical, just pointing out to lemming its hard to be sure from the pics how ok the belay was, from your description it sounds as if it was strong enough, but could be tweaked here and there.
Cool sorry wasn't meaning to be over critical, just pointing out to lemming its hard to be sure from the pics how ok the belay was, from your description it sounds as if it was strong enough, but could be tweaked here and there.
In reply to ledifer: I hav'nt read all the replies, but as long as you clove hitched at your harness, as you say, it lookes bomber to me. i'm still a novice (60+ leads)but i'd be happy with that set-up anytime if climbing with you.
In reply to ledifer:
Everyone is saying not to knot the sling round the boulder. That may be correct in most cases and in this case but this may not always be so. In some cases the knot could help to keep the sling below side lips that would help to keep it down. Can't tell in this case but you need to keep assessing as you go along not just applying universal rules (although these help to start with).
Everyone is saying not to knot the sling round the boulder. That may be correct in most cases and in this case but this may not always be so. In some cases the knot could help to keep the sling below side lips that would help to keep it down. Can't tell in this case but you need to keep assessing as you go along not just applying universal rules (although these help to start with).
In reply to ledifer: would be a pain in the ass to escape from this system ....
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Not at all, I genuinely did put this up to get it critiqued so I know where I can improve!
> (In reply to ledifer)
> Cool sorry wasn't meaning to be over critical,
> Cool sorry wasn't meaning to be over critical,
Not at all, I genuinely did put this up to get it critiqued so I know where I can improve!
In reply to needvert:
I love belaying with the gridlock - one less thing for me to check! But my climbing buddy wanted us to use his device instead of my reverso - he's got a mammut smart and the bloody thing is massive and won't fit on the gridlock.
Anyway we were running out of screwgates and the gridlock seemed as good as any
> (In reply to ledifer)
>
> Didn't like belaying with the gridlock?
>
> Didn't like belaying with the gridlock?
I love belaying with the gridlock - one less thing for me to check! But my climbing buddy wanted us to use his device instead of my reverso - he's got a mammut smart and the bloody thing is massive and won't fit on the gridlock.
Anyway we were running out of screwgates and the gridlock seemed as good as any
In reply to janko440:
Yes it would've as the player was directly tied in through their harness. Instead we should have tied a figure 8 on a bight and used a screwgate to clip into our harness belaying loop.
If I'm right escaping would then be fairly simple
Tie off belaying device
Tie prussic on rope to climber, use a quickdraw to connect it to the rope loop (the bight of previously mentioned fig 8)
Tighten prussic so it has the load.
Unclip myself from the rope loop.
Remove the belay device and tie the rope onto the crab using a live hitch
Transfer weight from the prussic back onto the rope
This would've also been a lot more convenient as since we done the same route a few times each we could have just unclipped and passed it over when swapping belays rather than untying and the new belayer tying in
> (In reply to ledifer) would be a pain in the ass to escape from this system ....
Yes it would've as the player was directly tied in through their harness. Instead we should have tied a figure 8 on a bight and used a screwgate to clip into our harness belaying loop.
If I'm right escaping would then be fairly simple
Tie off belaying device
Tie prussic on rope to climber, use a quickdraw to connect it to the rope loop (the bight of previously mentioned fig 8)
Tighten prussic so it has the load.
Unclip myself from the rope loop.
Remove the belay device and tie the rope onto the crab using a live hitch
Transfer weight from the prussic back onto the rope
This would've also been a lot more convenient as since we done the same route a few times each we could have just unclipped and passed it over when swapping belays rather than untying and the new belayer tying in
In reply to ledifer:
>
That would be a clove hitch unless my phones auto correct knows better
>
>
> Remove the belay device and tie the rope onto the crab using a live hitch
>> Remove the belay device and tie the rope onto the crab using a live hitch
That would be a clove hitch unless my phones auto correct knows better
In reply to ledifer:
Just be aware that if you fall on them you can shorten the life of the rope by damaging the sheath. Not a major issue but could cost you more in the long run.
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> that's a very good point, considering the route was only about 7-8 metres and my rope is 60m , i should be fine.
>
> Cheers, you just saved me £20
>
> that's a very good point, considering the route was only about 7-8 metres and my rope is 60m , i should be fine.
>
> Cheers, you just saved me £20
Just be aware that if you fall on them you can shorten the life of the rope by damaging the sheath. Not a major issue but could cost you more in the long run.
In reply to ledifer:
Looks pretty good to me.
If that sling is under a good lip then it doesn't look possible for it to lift off. A knot in a sling weakens it but not nearly enough to matter when it's one of 3 anchors being used ot bring up a second.
Looks pretty good to me.
If that sling is under a good lip then it doesn't look possible for it to lift off. A knot in a sling weakens it but not nearly enough to matter when it's one of 3 anchors being used ot bring up a second.
In reply to janko440:
No it wouldn't. The climber could either use the same phone he took the picture on to call for help, or could simply tie everything off, take his harness off and walk away. The photo does not depict a ledge halfway up a cliff face.
There seems to be an awful lot of emphasis on being able to escape the system, but in reality there are only a handful of scenarios where this is a useful thing to be able to do. At the top of the climb the number of options available are significantly more than half way up a climb.
> (In reply to ledifer) would be a pain in the ass to escape from this system ....
No it wouldn't. The climber could either use the same phone he took the picture on to call for help, or could simply tie everything off, take his harness off and walk away. The photo does not depict a ledge halfway up a cliff face.
There seems to be an awful lot of emphasis on being able to escape the system, but in reality there are only a handful of scenarios where this is a useful thing to be able to do. At the top of the climb the number of options available are significantly more than half way up a climb.
In reply to ledifer:
If that's what I saw when getting to the top of the route, and without a closer inspection of the nut placements, the shape/size of the boulder, the solidity of the rock etc, I'd be happy enough. Some people have suggested improvements, but it doesn't look like death-on-a-stick.
The crack on the right certainly looks like somewhere you should be able to find a good nut/hex placement, and slinging the boulder on the left meets the important principle of having a second point that's totally independent of the first.
You asked about the knot in the sling around the boulder. The perspective in the photo is forshortened, so I'm not sure if the angle created by the knot is really all that bad, but it's certainly something to keep an eye on when building anchors. The knot does reduce the strength, but it should be very hard to generate enough force from a fall in that scenario (belaying from the top of the crag with the climber below you, plenty of climbing rope used in the anchor) for that to be a concern. Yes, sometimes shortening the loop of the sling can help to keep it where it needs to be.
Also, you had great fun. That's a successful climb!
If that's what I saw when getting to the top of the route, and without a closer inspection of the nut placements, the shape/size of the boulder, the solidity of the rock etc, I'd be happy enough. Some people have suggested improvements, but it doesn't look like death-on-a-stick.
The crack on the right certainly looks like somewhere you should be able to find a good nut/hex placement, and slinging the boulder on the left meets the important principle of having a second point that's totally independent of the first.
You asked about the knot in the sling around the boulder. The perspective in the photo is forshortened, so I'm not sure if the angle created by the knot is really all that bad, but it's certainly something to keep an eye on when building anchors. The knot does reduce the strength, but it should be very hard to generate enough force from a fall in that scenario (belaying from the top of the crag with the climber below you, plenty of climbing rope used in the anchor) for that to be a concern. Yes, sometimes shortening the loop of the sling can help to keep it where it needs to be.
Also, you had great fun. That's a successful climb!
Second nut looks very suspect but if it wasnt there i'd have no complaints assuming the sling is tucked nicely under a lip. A bomber large nut and safe sling sling is fine with me. I wouldnt worry about the sling knot in a static situation like this, its more than strong enough knotted in an anchor and makes it slightly less likely to pop out of the lip.
In reply to ledifer:
Being as critical as possible:
Firstly, good job for getting out there and having a go glad you enjoyed it.
Secondly, don't worry too much about weakening things with knots and moderate angles, they're plenty strong enough either way. Likewise I'm sure someone will suggest putting two clove hitches on a krab 'weakens' it. They're right but it's fairly unimportant, even 'weakened' they're plenty strong enough. An alternative to two clove hitches is to replace the first one with an overhand knot (to form a clipable loop), leave it slack while you're getting into position and it's nearly as adjustable as a clove hitch but takes up less space on the krab, handy if you have 3 belay pieces or small krabs.
The sling and the top nut look good especially given the sling is under a lip.
Now for the bad bit... the bottom nut doesn't look so good though it's hard to say for sure, it looks like it's hung up on its edges/corners rather than with the faces in contact with the rock.
Ordinarily a poor placement in a belay (while obviously undesirable) is not the end of the world, it's backed up by others. However, in this case the sliding-x sling makes it a problem, if the nut fails there's a significant extension in your belay, this can be enough to dump you over an edge which can in turn lead you to lose control of the belayed climber. As a general rule you should avoid sliding-x slings in belays. If any piece fails the support provided by the belay should remain relatively unchanged.
jk
Being as critical as possible:
Firstly, good job for getting out there and having a go glad you enjoyed it.
Secondly, don't worry too much about weakening things with knots and moderate angles, they're plenty strong enough either way. Likewise I'm sure someone will suggest putting two clove hitches on a krab 'weakens' it. They're right but it's fairly unimportant, even 'weakened' they're plenty strong enough. An alternative to two clove hitches is to replace the first one with an overhand knot (to form a clipable loop), leave it slack while you're getting into position and it's nearly as adjustable as a clove hitch but takes up less space on the krab, handy if you have 3 belay pieces or small krabs.
The sling and the top nut look good especially given the sling is under a lip.
Now for the bad bit... the bottom nut doesn't look so good though it's hard to say for sure, it looks like it's hung up on its edges/corners rather than with the faces in contact with the rock.
Ordinarily a poor placement in a belay (while obviously undesirable) is not the end of the world, it's backed up by others. However, in this case the sliding-x sling makes it a problem, if the nut fails there's a significant extension in your belay, this can be enough to dump you over an edge which can in turn lead you to lose control of the belayed climber. As a general rule you should avoid sliding-x slings in belays. If any piece fails the support provided by the belay should remain relatively unchanged.
jk
In reply to ledifer: can we start a new "rate my...."? lets start with crag hag!
In reply to ledifer: Firstly well done for getting out and having a go, keep it up!
With regards to the anchor it doesn't look to bad, a few small points
1) the knot in the sling is unnecessary but not dangerous
2) I would defiantly knot the other sling so that the two nuts are independent if one does fail. especially as the second nut doesn't look great (hard to tell from pic)
3) a good little tip with slings round boulders is to take both sides of the sling, pull them in the direction of pull and slide them back and forth a couple of times, if the sling rides up then look for another boulder or back it up.
overall well done it all looks fairly safe with only a few minor adjustment id consider it perfect. keep getting out and learning.
With regards to the anchor it doesn't look to bad, a few small points
1) the knot in the sling is unnecessary but not dangerous
2) I would defiantly knot the other sling so that the two nuts are independent if one does fail. especially as the second nut doesn't look great (hard to tell from pic)
3) a good little tip with slings round boulders is to take both sides of the sling, pull them in the direction of pull and slide them back and forth a couple of times, if the sling rides up then look for another boulder or back it up.
overall well done it all looks fairly safe with only a few minor adjustment id consider it perfect. keep getting out and learning.
In reply to scottie390:
Yes, but a knotted sling is still strong enough for most climbing situations.
https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/qclab/qc-lab-slin...
for some data.
If your 22kN sling is weakened by (for example) 50% it is still going to hold 11kN, which for the vast majority of climbing scenarios is strong enough. Remember, most nuts and cams are rated beween 5 and 14kN.
Davy
> (In reply to ledifer) tying knots in slings (Especially dyneema) weakens >the whole sling considerably.
Yes, but a knotted sling is still strong enough for most climbing situations.
https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/qclab/qc-lab-slin...
for some data.
If your 22kN sling is weakened by (for example) 50% it is still going to hold 11kN, which for the vast majority of climbing scenarios is strong enough. Remember, most nuts and cams are rated beween 5 and 14kN.
Davy
In reply to Davy Virdee:
the knot in the sling is unnecessary so therefore not worth tieing.
the knot in the sling is unnecessary so therefore not worth tieing.
In reply to ledifer: sling knot is "knot" needed,also pear shaped karabiner is ott ,a smaller one would be adequate .the large pear shaped karabiner would be better utilised onto your rope loop as it has good space for clove hitching.
The red sling which you have doubled up is "ok" however if one of the nuts failed it could shock load the system,There are better ways to do it .
personally i would have put a directional knot in the sling and placed the karabiner through both parts,or maybe an overhand knot if the sling was long enough
saying that its going nowhere as the rock looks bomber if as you say the sling is going under a lip.
The red sling which you have doubled up is "ok" however if one of the nuts failed it could shock load the system,There are better ways to do it .
personally i would have put a directional knot in the sling and placed the karabiner through both parts,or maybe an overhand knot if the sling was long enough
saying that its going nowhere as the rock looks bomber if as you say the sling is going under a lip.
In reply to colina:
Thanks all,
This has turned out to be quite a popular lib
ttle thread
will let you know how we get on this weekend. Gonna try a bit of lowering this time (from a low height at first!) So we'll actually weight the anchor. Nice to know I can trust myself to build one.
Thanks all,
This has turned out to be quite a popular lib
ttle thread
will let you know how we get on this weekend. Gonna try a bit of lowering this time (from a low height at first!) So we'll actually weight the anchor. Nice to know I can trust myself to build one.
In reply to ledifer: I would describe that belay as "Safe Practice" but not "Best Practice".
To improve it (and I'm being a very pedantic here);
1) Remove the knot in the sling, it's not needed.
2) Both the Krabs in the 'nut anchor' are placed with gate facing the rock. This increases the chance of the gate being opened. It is unlikely in this belay set up but still possible (more important in bottom rope set ups where the anchor is being loaded and unloaded without you being able to see it, which is why we don't use friends in bottom rope set ups). So as a general rule try and have the gates facing away from the rock where possible.
4)The snap gate in your photo is placed with gate facing the rock, that IS naughty. A screwgate would be preferable in this situation.
5) Have a think about gravity fed gates (now this is being pedantic, but we must search for perfection!). Hold a Krab in your hand so that the main axis/gate is pointing down towards you toes, hinge at the top. To do up the screwgate, the 'screwy thing' has to travel down, ie WITH gravity. Therefore, if the gate is angled like this, it is just about impossible for the screwgate to undo by accident.
The two screwgates in your photo's are not gravity fed. If you were to imagine the snap gate in photo 4 was a screwgate then because it is pointing down it would be gravity feed.
6) The nut belay does not look perfectly equalised. Hard to gauge on a 2D photo but it seems like the top nut is taking most of the load. However as the bottom nut looks a little suspect I may be doing you a dis-service and you could well have equalised it this way to make sure the top nut took more load.
But on the whole I wouldn't break out in a cold sweat if I seconded you and came up to see this anchor.
To improve it (and I'm being a very pedantic here);
1) Remove the knot in the sling, it's not needed.
2) Both the Krabs in the 'nut anchor' are placed with gate facing the rock. This increases the chance of the gate being opened. It is unlikely in this belay set up but still possible (more important in bottom rope set ups where the anchor is being loaded and unloaded without you being able to see it, which is why we don't use friends in bottom rope set ups). So as a general rule try and have the gates facing away from the rock where possible.
4)The snap gate in your photo is placed with gate facing the rock, that IS naughty. A screwgate would be preferable in this situation.
5) Have a think about gravity fed gates (now this is being pedantic, but we must search for perfection!). Hold a Krab in your hand so that the main axis/gate is pointing down towards you toes, hinge at the top. To do up the screwgate, the 'screwy thing' has to travel down, ie WITH gravity. Therefore, if the gate is angled like this, it is just about impossible for the screwgate to undo by accident.
The two screwgates in your photo's are not gravity fed. If you were to imagine the snap gate in photo 4 was a screwgate then because it is pointing down it would be gravity feed.
6) The nut belay does not look perfectly equalised. Hard to gauge on a 2D photo but it seems like the top nut is taking most of the load. However as the bottom nut looks a little suspect I may be doing you a dis-service and you could well have equalised it this way to make sure the top nut took more load.
But on the whole I wouldn't break out in a cold sweat if I seconded you and came up to see this anchor.
In reply to Jim Walton: excellent jim
In reply to Jim Walton:
the nuts are equalised - as he is using a sliding X, as I pointed out earlier this isn't ideal in this situation as if one nut fails the rest of the belay will only be loading the sling around the boulder. Also the way the two nuts have been equalised on such as short sling looks to be increasing the pull on the bottom nut in the up direction which looks like it is not a great placement in this direction anyway, this is increasing the chance that this will fail causing the sliding X to lengthen and then leaving all the load on the sling around the boulder.
As long as the sling around the boulder is good and the boulder is big and stable enough I agree the belay is probably ok but could be improved.
the nuts are equalised - as he is using a sliding X, as I pointed out earlier this isn't ideal in this situation as if one nut fails the rest of the belay will only be loading the sling around the boulder. Also the way the two nuts have been equalised on such as short sling looks to be increasing the pull on the bottom nut in the up direction which looks like it is not a great placement in this direction anyway, this is increasing the chance that this will fail causing the sliding X to lengthen and then leaving all the load on the sling around the boulder.
As long as the sling around the boulder is good and the boulder is big and stable enough I agree the belay is probably ok but could be improved.
In reply to jonny2vests: I'm here all week...
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