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Someone suggested that all you gnarly winter climbers are too manly to read Hilltalk but might be interested in this...
The case for saving, renovating and maintaining the remote Garbh Choire Refuge in the Cairngorms: http://cairngormwanderer.wordpress.com/garbh-choire-refuge/
The case for saving, renovating and maintaining the remote Garbh Choire Refuge in the Cairngorms: http://cairngormwanderer.wordpress.com/garbh-choire-refuge/
In reply to OMR:
I was having a discussion with a mate a couple of months ago about how much work it would take to rebuild it, and what the best approach would be. I don't think we came to any firm conclusions other than that it would be feasible.
I'm stuck in the SW, so am conveniently unlikely to be able to turn up and help but I support the idea!
I was having a discussion with a mate a couple of months ago about how much work it would take to rebuild it, and what the best approach would be. I don't think we came to any firm conclusions other than that it would be feasible.
I'm stuck in the SW, so am conveniently unlikely to be able to turn up and help but I support the idea!
In reply to davidbeynon:
Dinna worry, the summary gets you off the hook of helping out.
"Both the means and the will exist to repair the structure and – importantly – maintain it for the future, with those carrying out the work having a proven track record of commitment and ability in similar situations"
My reading is that the estate will repair it using materials and building practices that fall within the various restrictions of a NP, and the MBA will thereafter maintain it.
> (In reply to OMR)
>
>
> I'm stuck in the SW, so am conveniently unlikely to be able to turn up and help but I support the idea!
>
>
> I'm stuck in the SW, so am conveniently unlikely to be able to turn up and help but I support the idea!
Dinna worry, the summary gets you off the hook of helping out.
"Both the means and the will exist to repair the structure and – importantly – maintain it for the future, with those carrying out the work having a proven track record of commitment and ability in similar situations"
My reading is that the estate will repair it using materials and building practices that fall within the various restrictions of a NP, and the MBA will thereafter maintain it.
In reply to Jim C: Not quite. The hope is that, given the permission of the estate (which owns the structure) the MBA will repair it to standards agreed with the estate and the relevant authorities, and will thereafter maintain it. Just like at Corrour, Fords of Avon, Faindouran etc.
In reply to OMR:
My impression was that the estate (National Trust) want to demolish it, but that various enthusiasts are offering to repair it and hope the NT will allow it. So this thread was trying to raise support.
My impression was that the estate (National Trust) want to demolish it, but that various enthusiasts are offering to repair it and hope the NT will allow it. So this thread was trying to raise support.
In reply to Andy Nisbet: That's about it, Andy, but the 'enthusiasts are all MBA members and the intention is to do it all properly through the MBA so that there's a formal structure there for the future of the refuge and for the reassurance of the estate.
In reply to OMR: Given its setting in one of the finest, if not the finest, wild land area in Scotland, there is a school of thought which supports its removal.
In reply to George Allan: There is indeed - hence the need for me to be making this case. While there are good arguments for removing it,I happen to believe that when you put the arguments for and the arguments against, the balance is in favour of saving it. So far the vast majority of views I've heard agree, but I freely admit there are those who hold the opposite view and hold it for very sound reasons. One further thought though: even if it's renovated, it can still be removed at any time in the future, but it can only be removed once - that's final.
In reply to George Allan: I'm with you George. There were very good reasons to demolish or remove huts etc in the past and these reasons have not diminished. If it is improved as OMR suggests it will inevitably lead to more publicity and usage. There will be folk going through the Larig who will make for this rather than taking the safer option of heading out of the Larig.
I take the point that if it is decided to keep a refuge/hut such as Corrour or Hutchison then it needs to be maintained to a decent standard and inevitably this means dealing with litter and human waste.
I find it anomalous that hillwalkers and climbers are generally at the forefront of keeping wild land wild but at the same time we seem to be saying that only helds true except where it suits us to have a development which we want. Difficult to sustain the logic of that position.
I would demolish and remove.
I take the point that if it is decided to keep a refuge/hut such as Corrour or Hutchison then it needs to be maintained to a decent standard and inevitably this means dealing with litter and human waste.
I find it anomalous that hillwalkers and climbers are generally at the forefront of keeping wild land wild but at the same time we seem to be saying that only helds true except where it suits us to have a development which we want. Difficult to sustain the logic of that position.
I would demolish and remove.
In reply to Jim Braid: Has the Fords Of Avon Refuge saw increased usuage since its renovation ?
In reply to Nath93:
The Fords of Avon aren't particularly usefull, and lets face it in comparison to Garbh Coire they are in very drab surroundings. So not really a usefull comparison
Like Ron I've spent happy days exploring the Coire's, and have climbed in them many times summer and winter, but have always taken a tent or bivvy.
Undecided about renovation or removal. Yes there is a history surrounded with the shelter. Yes it could/does provide on occasion and in certain situations an increased safety margin, but it can't be argued that Breariach is special case. It does detract from the 'wild' quality, it does intrude visually, and it does (as noted above) cause inconsistency in climbers environmental arguements. I suppose the question is, if this man-made howff was in the back of the Mondaliath (no mumros/no climbing), would it have such support.........
On the upside given those involved whatever is decided, it will be a job done well.
The Fords of Avon aren't particularly usefull, and lets face it in comparison to Garbh Coire they are in very drab surroundings. So not really a usefull comparison
Like Ron I've spent happy days exploring the Coire's, and have climbed in them many times summer and winter, but have always taken a tent or bivvy.
Undecided about renovation or removal. Yes there is a history surrounded with the shelter. Yes it could/does provide on occasion and in certain situations an increased safety margin, but it can't be argued that Breariach is special case. It does detract from the 'wild' quality, it does intrude visually, and it does (as noted above) cause inconsistency in climbers environmental arguements. I suppose the question is, if this man-made howff was in the back of the Mondaliath (no mumros/no climbing), would it have such support.........
On the upside given those involved whatever is decided, it will be a job done well.
In reply to OMR:
I'd be happy to see it go (along with Fords of Avon and the Hutchison Hut). They do seem a incongruous and always a bit squalid.
I'd be happy to see it go (along with Fords of Avon and the Hutchison Hut). They do seem a incongruous and always a bit squalid.
In reply to ScraggyGoat:
I'd have said they were a very good comparison - a long-established refuge, in a fantastic location (drab?!?), fallen into disrepair, but then renovated and taken on by the MBA. The MBA have emphasised in all publicity that it's an emergency refuge, not suitable for planned stays. If people have ignored this, then they're likely to ignore any similar statements about Garbh Coire.
> The Fords of Avon aren't particularly useful, and lets face it in comparison to Garbh Coire they are in very drab surroundings. So not really a useful comparison
I'd have said they were a very good comparison - a long-established refuge, in a fantastic location (drab?!?), fallen into disrepair, but then renovated and taken on by the MBA. The MBA have emphasised in all publicity that it's an emergency refuge, not suitable for planned stays. If people have ignored this, then they're likely to ignore any similar statements about Garbh Coire.
In reply to Toreador:
You wouldn't base yourself to go climbing from Fords of Avon, nor would you divert to Garbh Coire as part of a through-walking route. So they are definately not comparable.............furthermore there is a history of planned multi-night stays by climbers and others in Garbh Coire.
In comparison to Breariach, Fords of Avon are drab. But then I am a local, perhaps fimiliarity is breeding contempt.
You wouldn't base yourself to go climbing from Fords of Avon, nor would you divert to Garbh Coire as part of a through-walking route. So they are definately not comparable.............furthermore there is a history of planned multi-night stays by climbers and others in Garbh Coire.
In comparison to Breariach, Fords of Avon are drab. But then I am a local, perhaps fimiliarity is breeding contempt.
In reply to ScraggyGoat:
I would reckon the Fords of Avon are busier though. Either way I'd support the retention of Garbh Choire Refuge.
I would reckon the Fords of Avon are busier though. Either way I'd support the retention of Garbh Choire Refuge.
In reply to Saor Alba:
Agree Fords of Avaon are busier at present.
IMHO Garbh Choire refuge would become busier than it is now, once in the stewardship of the MBA. Wider 'advertisement' via thier hand-book and website (plus internet forums like UKC). Coupled with the knowledge that the refuge is more likely to be wind and water tight due to thier care, and the growing realisation (amongst the masses) that the area holds snow well, will all result in increased usage.
Agree Fords of Avaon are busier at present.
IMHO Garbh Choire refuge would become busier than it is now, once in the stewardship of the MBA. Wider 'advertisement' via thier hand-book and website (plus internet forums like UKC). Coupled with the knowledge that the refuge is more likely to be wind and water tight due to thier care, and the growing realisation (amongst the masses) that the area holds snow well, will all result in increased usage.
In reply to OMR:
I support retaining the refuge. It's part of climbing near history and really isn't all that intrusive, certainly not more so than any old sheilings, fanks or ruins that abound the hills.
I support retaining the refuge. It's part of climbing near history and really isn't all that intrusive, certainly not more so than any old sheilings, fanks or ruins that abound the hills.
In reply to ScraggyGoat:
It might become busier and I'd have no problem with that. It certainly wouldn't be "busy" though.
In fact I'd like increased usage with direction on appropriate use etc. Instead of jumping over leather horses in PE I'd rather see kids learn about fire making, bothying etc.
It might become busier and I'd have no problem with that. It certainly wouldn't be "busy" though.
In fact I'd like increased usage with direction on appropriate use etc. Instead of jumping over leather horses in PE I'd rather see kids learn about fire making, bothying etc.
In reply to Saor Alba: Although in the case of the Garbh Choire, maybe don't mix fire-making and bothying!!!
In reply to OMR: Well that would be one solution to the question
In reply to OMR:
Is there a similar document presenting arguments for removal? Because at present I can't think why anyone would want to do so.
Is there a similar document presenting arguments for removal? Because at present I can't think why anyone would want to do so.
In reply to Robert Durran:
When was the last time you were in them? Both hhave had a great deal of work done to them recently. Yeah a few years back they were shite holes. Not now.
> (In reply to OMR)
>
> I'd be happy to see it go (along with Fords of Avon and the Hutchison Hut). They do seem a incongruous and always a bit squalid.
>
> I'd be happy to see it go (along with Fords of Avon and the Hutchison Hut). They do seem a incongruous and always a bit squalid.
When was the last time you were in them? Both hhave had a great deal of work done to them recently. Yeah a few years back they were shite holes. Not now.
In reply to OMR:
yes of course. In fact it would be entirely to educate people on proper methods and travelling through the hills that I would aim. Maybe then there might not be the Loch Lomond situation etc. Topic for another thread.
yes of course. In fact it would be entirely to educate people on proper methods and travelling through the hills that I would aim. Maybe then there might not be the Loch Lomond situation etc. Topic for another thread.
In reply to OMR: It would be interesting to see how many of those who favour removal use bothies. Any bothies, I mean, as I presume they don't use the Garbh Choire. Not sure that it makes any point, but just curious.
In reply to OMR: I tend not to use bothies because I find them generally less comfortable than tents. I don't mind the odd one but once they get 'known' they seem to attract litter, vandalism and generally go downhill. So I suppose repairing Garb Corrie but not saying anything about it would be my preferred option.
Italian bivouac huts are fantastic - unmanned but with bunks, mattress and blankets and almost always neat and tidy. A pity this seems not to work in Scotland. The dampness doesn't help of course.
Italian bivouac huts are fantastic - unmanned but with bunks, mattress and blankets and almost always neat and tidy. A pity this seems not to work in Scotland. The dampness doesn't help of course.
In reply to george mc:
Admittedly quite a number of years. I was as much thinking of the area around them as the huts themselves. I still think they are a bit out of place in those locations.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> When was the last time you were in them? Both hhave had a great deal of work done to them recently. Yeah a few years back they were shite holes. Not now.
> When was the last time you were in them? Both hhave had a great deal of work done to them recently. Yeah a few years back they were shite holes. Not now.
Admittedly quite a number of years. I was as much thinking of the area around them as the huts themselves. I still think they are a bit out of place in those locations.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Neil Reid and Kenny Freeman are to be commended on their document arguing the case for retention and doing the bothy up, The committee of the North East Mountain Trust discussed their paper recently, along with one favouring removal written by another committee member. NEMT is in the process of canvassing its members' views.
The decision on the future of the bothy lies entirely with the National Trust for Scotland which will, presumable, take soundings, and consult the Cairngorm Park Authority before making a decision. There seem to be two options-a] rebuild it pretty well exactly as it is and then maintain it- the option that the Mountain Bothies Assn has an interest in or b] dismantle and, as far as possible, leave no trace of its existance. There are two other options but no one party to the North East Mountain Trust discussions favoured them. These are, firstly, rebuild making it bigger and secondly leave it to deteriorate.
For the sake of completeness these are the arguments for complete removal:
- It is in an area of wild land par excellence. Removal would return this to a pristine state with no evidence of man's intrusion. These coires really are an exceptional case in the way that Fords of Avon is not.
-The bothy was built in the 1960s by members of the Lairig Club to facilitate developments in the Braeriach coires. At that time, most climbers went in from the south. It serves this purpose much less now as most go in via various routes from the north. In addition, modern light weight tents have altered the situation.
- There is an emerging path around it and this is likely to become more obvious if it is retained.
- The cultural heritage argument is questionable. It could be applied to almost anything which had been touched by man.
- The safety argument is both circular. It could also be used to justify retaining any buildings. For example, Jean's Hut and the Sinclair hut could have been retained on this basis.
In putting foreward the case for removal, I am not saying that I support either this or retention. However, people need to considered all angles.
George
Neil Reid and Kenny Freeman are to be commended on their document arguing the case for retention and doing the bothy up, The committee of the North East Mountain Trust discussed their paper recently, along with one favouring removal written by another committee member. NEMT is in the process of canvassing its members' views.
The decision on the future of the bothy lies entirely with the National Trust for Scotland which will, presumable, take soundings, and consult the Cairngorm Park Authority before making a decision. There seem to be two options-a] rebuild it pretty well exactly as it is and then maintain it- the option that the Mountain Bothies Assn has an interest in or b] dismantle and, as far as possible, leave no trace of its existance. There are two other options but no one party to the North East Mountain Trust discussions favoured them. These are, firstly, rebuild making it bigger and secondly leave it to deteriorate.
For the sake of completeness these are the arguments for complete removal:
- It is in an area of wild land par excellence. Removal would return this to a pristine state with no evidence of man's intrusion. These coires really are an exceptional case in the way that Fords of Avon is not.
-The bothy was built in the 1960s by members of the Lairig Club to facilitate developments in the Braeriach coires. At that time, most climbers went in from the south. It serves this purpose much less now as most go in via various routes from the north. In addition, modern light weight tents have altered the situation.
- There is an emerging path around it and this is likely to become more obvious if it is retained.
- The cultural heritage argument is questionable. It could be applied to almost anything which had been touched by man.
- The safety argument is both circular. It could also be used to justify retaining any buildings. For example, Jean's Hut and the Sinclair hut could have been retained on this basis.
In putting foreward the case for removal, I am not saying that I support either this or retention. However, people need to considered all angles.
George
In reply to OMR: Normally I'm against infrastructure in the hills, but the Garbh Choire refuge I don't mind:
1. It's tiny so can't attract all that many.
2. It's just about out of the way enough for any who aren't specifically travelling to the coire to be put off using it.
3. It's visually unobtrusive at worst/a quaint hobbit hole at best. I find it adds to the landscape.
I've stayed in it midwinter and it's a lot colder than a tent and a bit squalid. From the outside it just looks like a boulder.
The human waste issue isn't entirely a hut problem but rather an attitude problem. The US seems to have more of a 'pack-it-out' attitude, while our approach seems similar to the French one of crapping all over the shop. When I stayed at Garbh Coire we packed our shit out. I know the Cairngorm NP encourages this, but I don't get the impression it's practised by the majority yet.
I'd favour refurbishment but NOT advertising the presence of a newly refurbished bivi hut via the MBA if that's possible.
1. It's tiny so can't attract all that many.
2. It's just about out of the way enough for any who aren't specifically travelling to the coire to be put off using it.
3. It's visually unobtrusive at worst/a quaint hobbit hole at best. I find it adds to the landscape.
I've stayed in it midwinter and it's a lot colder than a tent and a bit squalid. From the outside it just looks like a boulder.
The human waste issue isn't entirely a hut problem but rather an attitude problem. The US seems to have more of a 'pack-it-out' attitude, while our approach seems similar to the French one of crapping all over the shop. When I stayed at Garbh Coire we packed our shit out. I know the Cairngorm NP encourages this, but I don't get the impression it's practised by the majority yet.
I'd favour refurbishment but NOT advertising the presence of a newly refurbished bivi hut via the MBA if that's possible.
In reply to George Allan: I've published all your comments on my blog, George, along with my own rebuttals. Rather than fill up space here, they can be seen at http://cairngormwanderer.wordpress.com/2012/03/22/refuting-the-case-for-des...
In reply to OMR:
The SMC are going to discuss the matter at their next committee meeting in April. This was after we were approached by Heather Morning of the MCofS asking us to support it. But this was her personal approach rather than MCofS policy. The MCofS are also going to discuss it in April.
The SMC are going to discuss the matter at their next committee meeting in April. This was after we were approached by Heather Morning of the MCofS asking us to support it. But this was her personal approach rather than MCofS policy. The MCofS are also going to discuss it in April.
In reply to OMR: Just my twopennorth, as a member of the MBA and as someone who has stayed at the Garbh Choire.
I would be happiest for the refuge to be renovated as indicated in Neil's discussion of the matter. I fully understand the ideals of some posters who feel that removing the refuge (which, should be seen more as a howff than a bothy) will return this remote coire fully to nature but as far as shelters go I must side with Flashy - it is very unobtrusive.
Indeed, the first time I went there having dropped off Braeriach in poor conditions I couldn't even see it until I crossed the burn just below it, saw what I thought was just a pile of boulders and gleefully found Garbh Choire which, though the door at that time was well knackered, gave ample shelter. In the morning, walking out, I'd probably only walked 100yd before it had melted back into the background. Other than the Shelter Stone, or under a DPM tarp, it is probably the most unobtrusive place I have ever stayed.
I really can't see its presence if renovated detracting from the remoteness and wildness of the area, after all, as previously indicated, its location and the fact that it doesn't have a stove etc... will put many potential 'punters' off straight away. In addition, should the growing realisation that the area holds snow well result in increased usage I'd rather the shelter be used than see a smattering of bright orange, yellow and blue in the coire.
I would be happiest for the refuge to be renovated as indicated in Neil's discussion of the matter. I fully understand the ideals of some posters who feel that removing the refuge (which, should be seen more as a howff than a bothy) will return this remote coire fully to nature but as far as shelters go I must side with Flashy - it is very unobtrusive.
Indeed, the first time I went there having dropped off Braeriach in poor conditions I couldn't even see it until I crossed the burn just below it, saw what I thought was just a pile of boulders and gleefully found Garbh Choire which, though the door at that time was well knackered, gave ample shelter. In the morning, walking out, I'd probably only walked 100yd before it had melted back into the background. Other than the Shelter Stone, or under a DPM tarp, it is probably the most unobtrusive place I have ever stayed.
I really can't see its presence if renovated detracting from the remoteness and wildness of the area, after all, as previously indicated, its location and the fact that it doesn't have a stove etc... will put many potential 'punters' off straight away. In addition, should the growing realisation that the area holds snow well result in increased usage I'd rather the shelter be used than see a smattering of bright orange, yellow and blue in the coire.
In reply to OMR:
Neil,
Thanks for doing that. It is good that all sides of the argument are being reflected. The only comment I would make is that the observation about 'culture' was not an attack on bothy culture. As far as I am aware there is widespread support for the maintenance of the Cairngorm bothies in general and a belief that the MBA continues to do a very good job. None of us will get a vote on the Garbh Coire refuge, unfortunately, but hopefully the National Trust's final decision will be aided by a widespread airing of opinions.
George
Neil,
Thanks for doing that. It is good that all sides of the argument are being reflected. The only comment I would make is that the observation about 'culture' was not an attack on bothy culture. As far as I am aware there is widespread support for the maintenance of the Cairngorm bothies in general and a belief that the MBA continues to do a very good job. None of us will get a vote on the Garbh Coire refuge, unfortunately, but hopefully the National Trust's final decision will be aided by a widespread airing of opinions.
George
In reply to George Allan:
Thanks for that. I don't think those are good enough arguments for it's removal. To be honest like in the case of the No.4 gully marker post saga I don't understand these groups' enthusiasm for removing low impact man made structures yet seemingly not being bothered about much larger / more intrusive ones. Corrour?
Thanks for that. I don't think those are good enough arguments for it's removal. To be honest like in the case of the No.4 gully marker post saga I don't understand these groups' enthusiasm for removing low impact man made structures yet seemingly not being bothered about much larger / more intrusive ones. Corrour?
In reply to OMR:
For what its worth, I'd be in favor of retention and renovation rather than demolition.
I don't for a minute believe that removing it would make it area safer as a couple of folk have argued, the shelter is in an out of the way enough and hard enough to find that its hardly the "easy" option. You might as well argue for demolishing Corour, the Hutchie, Bob Scots etc in case someone tries to make for them in bad weather and comes a cropper. Shelterstone would need to be bricked up as well really, just to be safe....
I can't see the area becoming a honey pot once its known the shelter has been made more weather tight, its still a long hoof in and its hardly going to be done up like the ritz!
Comparison to fords of Avon is a bit dubious in my opinion as well. Fords of Avon is right on one of the larig routes, and by a known (if over rated!) ford so sees a lot more passing traffic and makes a natural stop point / target for DoE groups etc. The same is hardly true for the Garbh Choire! We stuck our head into the Fords of Avon a month or so ago and it was hardly jam packed with folk nor did it have a bulging bothy book indicating regular usage (though someone had penned a warning that the door jams in the damp cold - took them better part of two hrs to escape apparently.....).
Cheers!
Stuart
For what its worth, I'd be in favor of retention and renovation rather than demolition.
I don't for a minute believe that removing it would make it area safer as a couple of folk have argued, the shelter is in an out of the way enough and hard enough to find that its hardly the "easy" option. You might as well argue for demolishing Corour, the Hutchie, Bob Scots etc in case someone tries to make for them in bad weather and comes a cropper. Shelterstone would need to be bricked up as well really, just to be safe....
I can't see the area becoming a honey pot once its known the shelter has been made more weather tight, its still a long hoof in and its hardly going to be done up like the ritz!
Comparison to fords of Avon is a bit dubious in my opinion as well. Fords of Avon is right on one of the larig routes, and by a known (if over rated!) ford so sees a lot more passing traffic and makes a natural stop point / target for DoE groups etc. The same is hardly true for the Garbh Choire! We stuck our head into the Fords of Avon a month or so ago and it was hardly jam packed with folk nor did it have a bulging bothy book indicating regular usage (though someone had penned a warning that the door jams in the damp cold - took them better part of two hrs to escape apparently.....).
Cheers!
Stuart
In reply to ScraggyGoat:
I stayed there overnight in June 1973 with my dad (I was 7 at the time) as a part of a walk around if not a walk through. Parked at Tullochgrue, walked up Braeriach, stayed there overnight, walked back to the car the next morning, starting above a full cloud inversion in clear blue skies. One of my earliest detailed memories. If there's an online poll put me down for renovation on the quiet (non-local, nostalgia).
> (In reply to Toreador)
>
> You wouldn't base yourself to go climbing from Fords of Avon, nor would you divert to Garbh Coire as part of a through-walking route. So they are definately not comparable.............furthermore there is a history of planned multi-night stays by climbers and others in Garbh Coire.
>
> In comparison to Breariach, Fords of Avon are drab. But then I am a local, perhaps fimiliarity is breeding contempt.
>
> You wouldn't base yourself to go climbing from Fords of Avon, nor would you divert to Garbh Coire as part of a through-walking route. So they are definately not comparable.............furthermore there is a history of planned multi-night stays by climbers and others in Garbh Coire.
>
> In comparison to Breariach, Fords of Avon are drab. But then I am a local, perhaps fimiliarity is breeding contempt.
I stayed there overnight in June 1973 with my dad (I was 7 at the time) as a part of a walk around if not a walk through. Parked at Tullochgrue, walked up Braeriach, stayed there overnight, walked back to the car the next morning, starting above a full cloud inversion in clear blue skies. One of my earliest detailed memories. If there's an online poll put me down for renovation on the quiet (non-local, nostalgia).
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