UKC

Hi,

I've recently started learning some trad skills and spent some time learning gear placement & rigging an anchor for a belaying up a 2nd. I'm happy with setting up an equalised anchor from my harness at the top using 3 pieces of protection & 3 clove hitches to screw gates attached to my rope loop and adjusting them to equalise everything.

I've just been experimenting with how I would adjust this technique to rig an anchor for a top/bottom rope and would like peoples opinions as to how safe the below is and if there are any ways it could be improved.

In the dummy set up below I have 3 anchors labelled 1, 2 & 3. At anchor 1 I have a fig8 not with a stopper (same I would tie to my harness). The rope then threads through anchors 2 & 3.

I then took the rope between 1&2 and attached to the screw gate labelled "4" with a clove hitch, and repeated with he length between 2 & 3.

I then took a bite of the remaining rope and tied a fig8 and clipped this to the screwgate leaving a very long tail.

Finally I tweaked the 2 clove hitches until each anchor was sharing the load evenly.

My intention then would be to extend from the screwgate with a sling and attach this to a top rope belayer or attach another screwgate and use it as a bottom rope anchor.

[img]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7196/6889495002_b45d9dc07a.jpg[/img]

Thanks

Adam

In reply to AdamGP86:
Looks like my image link isnt working, I direct link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/adamgp86/6889495002/

In reply to AdamGP86:

Well you probably wouldn't die from it but there are much better ways to set up the system that you are describing.

Probably be better to read a couple of books on the subject. Libby Peter's one is good as are others...

Good luck

In reply to Bimbler:
Thanks,
I assume you mean this book:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rock-Climbing-Essential-Techniques-Mountain/dp/0954...

Out of interest what would you change to the above set-up?

In reply to Bimbler:
Ive ordered the book, sounds like it should be a useful reference guide

In reply to AdamGP86: This is a great way to set up a top belay with the clove hitches in reach but would be a little tidier if the final figure 8 was clipped into 3 not 4. Also I would rotate 4 so that the clove hitches sit around the big radius the narrow end then only has the single extender out to the top rope. This will stop them wanting to work around the sides and potentially cross load the krab.

If access to the whole system isn't a problem ie when setting up a top rope I would do away with the clove hitches. Figure 8 on 1, down to 4, back to 3, down to 4 and figure 8 on 3. Pull 4 out to the direction it will be loaded in then when it is all equalized take the two loops off 4, tie one big figure 8 knot using all four strands of rope and then clip 4 into the two loops below this. Hope this makes sense.

In reply to AdamGP86: To answer your question, yes it is safe you could hang a volvo off it as long as you dont rip the roof joists out.
The best policy with rigging is to keep it as simple as possible and always use the most solid anchors you can find.

In reply to spearing05:
Thanks for the tips,

If I have understood you correctly the system should now look like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adamgp86/7035866533/

In Reply to muppetfilter:
Thanks for the reply, I agree the simplest solution is best since there is less room for mistakes. I'm glad do hear my set-up would be safe albeiet perhaps a little complicated.

In reply to AdamGP86: That's right. Less faff that way, use the clove hitches if you have to set up a belay where you cant tell the direction of pull/length of rope needed till you are in position so you can adjust the to suit once you're there.

This works really well with a long sling as well.

In reply to AdamGP86:

That looks like a much more efficient set up than the previous; my only criticism would be to use a single locking karabiner instead of the 2 opposing quickdraws to connect to the anchor.

In reply to spearing05:
Thanks for the advice , I feel a bit more confident setting something up now.

I have one more quick question, would it be ok to use one of my dynamic ropes (which i still use for sport/indoor) for this or should I really invest in a semi-static first?

In reply to AdamGP86: Another improvement would be to rather than tie off at point 3, just clip it and integrate the end of the line into the knot. I would use an overhand rather than a figure 8 though that's just personal preference as each has its benefits and drawbacks.

In reply to AdamGP86:
Dynamic rope can be used for set-ups, usually when a leader wants to bring up as second (as they're not going to carry a rigging rope up with them).

If you want to set up a bottom-rope system then a dynamic rope can be used but you have to take into consideration the effect that this is going to have on the equalisation of the anchors; for example using dynamic rope combined with a static sling could be a problem as the rope will stretch to a greater degree than the sling which could result in all of the weight being taken by the sling.

if you are planning on doing a lot of bottom/top roping or for group use then 10m or so of static rope would be a good investment.

In reply to AdamGP86: Dynamic would be fine, just remember there will be a little stretch in it (the amount will depend on the length between the anchors and the knot). Take this into account when siting the krab (4) that you will be running your top rope from so that when the stretch is taken up it isn't resting across an edge. Also loading and unloading the system will mean ropes/slings etc below it will have a tendency to saw back and forth as the stretch is taken up and released. How important this is will depend on what edges they are running over and the amount of stretch.

As with any system, think about where you are placing the individual parts and assess what effect if any will be had on them by any anticipated movement.

In reply to spearing05: There will be some movement even with static rope.

Thanks for the tips guys, the libby peters book I ordered came during the week and i have been playing with different set-ups. If i have understood everything correctly then the below set-up should be a good simple top-rope setup.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/adamgp86/6915940528/

There is a fig-8 on the far left biner with a stopper, then threaded through the other 2 anchors, pulled in the direction of pull until equalised then a large overhand knot incorporating all strands tied to create a loop to clip the biner.

If i was rigging this in the real-world I would tie the overhand much further away from the anchors in-order to minimise the angle between anchors.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how this could be improved or is this a good set-up to use in the real world?

Thanks

Adam

In reply to AdamGP86:

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how this could be improved or is this a good set-up to use in the real world?

You seem to understand the important principles. The best way to learn now is to take those principles and apply them. You will learn much more from making mistakes outdoors than you will from reading about them. I'm not suggesting anything dangerous, but awkward anchor positions etc. will make you think a lot more and therefore learn a lot better. Don't be afraid of making "mistakes" and experimenting as long as you can see it is safe.

In reply to AdamGP86:

It's a very good set-up in the real world. Solid, simple and adaptable.

Well done for doing it right, getting a book and learning safe techniques at home first.
jk

In reply to AdamGP86:

Yes, you can improve your personal safety whilst working near the edge of the cliff.

One good method is as follows:

Work out how far from the cliff edge the anchors are. Tie into the end of your rigging rope. Now measure out the distance from the anchors to the cliff edge and add a bit. Now tie a fig-8 on the bight at that position, clip that to the first anchor and the proceed exactly as you have done.

This way you can easily rig the system in complete safety as you are always connected to the first anchor, provided your rigging rope is long enough. You just untie from the rope after you have finished rigging.

HTH