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I am pleased to report that arrangements for access worked well in 2011 and a substantial number of climbers have commented that they support the new arrangements, which will also apply in 2012. Those who already have a 2011 permit, can obtain a 2012 validation simply by emailing a copy of their BMC membership card valid for the 2012 period for which permission is sought, to sundial@globalnet.co.uk. Those who have not applied before can use the same email address to obtain an application form.
In reply to Patrick Walker: Can you climb there if you are not a BMC member?
In reply to Patrick Walker: Does anyone know if you can climb there if you are not a BMC member? Do you have to be a BMC member for any other crags? Horseshoe quarry? Tremadog?
In reply to arth: just join to support the work done to keep this and various other crags open.
In reply to timmsy: do I need some sort of public liabilty insurance too?
In reply to Patrick Walker:
In case people were away over the bank holiday and missed this. I dont think many applied last year (wonder how many?) as I've come across a lot of people who wanted to climb at Blue and thought the crag was banned.
Regards
Paul
In case people were away over the bank holiday and missed this. I dont think many applied last year (wonder how many?) as I've come across a lot of people who wanted to climb at Blue and thought the crag was banned.
Regards
Paul
In reply to Paul Clarke: Hi Paul. Do you know if there are any dog restrictions at Blue? Also, do you know if the dog ban still applies to the right-hand sectors of Moughton Nab?
In reply to Karl Lunt: If you get an application form, part of the "contract" you have to sign is states
"I will not bring a dog or other animal, I will not light fires and I will take all refuse home with me. I will do nothing which is a nuisance or annoyance to the landowners or the farmer or to breeding birds. I will not seek to gain access outside the permitted period"
so guess there is?
"I will not bring a dog or other animal, I will not light fires and I will take all refuse home with me. I will do nothing which is a nuisance or annoyance to the landowners or the farmer or to breeding birds. I will not seek to gain access outside the permitted period"
so guess there is?
In reply to Karl Lunt:
Check BMC website for details but the rhs is open. Note approach
> (In reply to Paul Clarke) Hi Paul. Do you know if there are any dog restrictions at Blue? Also, do you know if the dog ban still applies to the right-hand sectors of Moughton Nab?
Check BMC website for details but the rhs is open. Note approach
In reply to dunnyg:
Is there a list somewhere of things which annoy the landowner, farmer and breeding birds (just to be absolutely safe). Is annoying non-breeding birds OK?
> (In reply to Karl Lunt) If you get an application form, part of the "contract" you have to sign is states
>
> I will do nothing which is a nuisance or annoyance to the landowners or the farmer or to breeding birds.
>>
> I will do nothing which is a nuisance or annoyance to the landowners or the farmer or to breeding birds.
Is there a list somewhere of things which annoy the landowner, farmer and breeding birds (just to be absolutely safe). Is annoying non-breeding birds OK?
In reply to Bulls Crack:
The BMC site doesn't seem to mention dogs at all but the download from the Leeds Wall site does.
> (In reply to Karl Lunt)
> [...]
>
>
> Check BMC website for details but the rhs is open. Note approach
> [...]
>
>
> Check BMC website for details but the rhs is open. Note approach
The BMC site doesn't seem to mention dogs at all but the download from the Leeds Wall site does.
In reply to Patrick Walker:Why make access so difficult? I never saw a 'substantial' amount of climbers at Blue!....Most climbers would like to climb on the r.h. side which I believe you don't own....but have to access from your side.............do the climbers signing up realise they cannot clip any fixed gear.......an integral part of climbing at Blue!
In reply to Karl Lunt:
I think the download on the Leeds Wall website has only been partially updated to add in the new approach and to prevent approach past Foredale Cottages (very little on the Leeds Wall downloads page has been updated in the last year or two).
Since the land is now designated Open Access you should legally be able to take your dog there, obeying the normal OA rules of course. Whether this would cause problems with the farmer and any ongoing negotiations I have no idea I'm afraid...
I think the download on the Leeds Wall website has only been partially updated to add in the new approach and to prevent approach past Foredale Cottages (very little on the Leeds Wall downloads page has been updated in the last year or two).
Since the land is now designated Open Access you should legally be able to take your dog there, obeying the normal OA rules of course. Whether this would cause problems with the farmer and any ongoing negotiations I have no idea I'm afraid...
In reply to chris_j_s:
Can you get to the open access land without going across the farmland?
I'm not sure why you would take a dog if the landowner's asked you not to - why irritate people when they've allowed access?
> (In reply to Karl Lunt)
> Since the land is now designated Open Access you should legally be able to take your dog there, obeying the normal OA rules of course. Whether this would cause problems with the farmer and any ongoing negotiations I have no idea I'm afraid...
Can you get to the open access land without going across the farmland?
I'm not sure why you would take a dog if the landowner's asked you not to - why irritate people when they've allowed access?
In reply to andy:
It's statutory access on designated open access land so the landowners/tenants permission is not required. That being said if it's known he doesn't want dogs up there I wouldn't take mine.
> (In reply to chris_j_s)
>
> I'm not sure why you would take a dog if the landowner's asked you not to - why irritate people when they've allowed access?
> I'm not sure why you would take a dog if the landowner's asked you not to - why irritate people when they've allowed access?
It's statutory access on designated open access land so the landowners/tenants permission is not required. That being said if it's known he doesn't want dogs up there I wouldn't take mine.
In reply to nigel baker: Would make for interesting climbing not clipping any bolts/pegs... What do you recon the deal is if you hooked a wire (in some way) over the bolts and clipped that? Breaking the "contract"? Odd one
In reply to dunnyg:
'Odd' is not the word! I haven't sent off for a permit so haven't got the full context. If this is the kind of idiotic, annoying and just plain daft kind of obstacle that is thrown up in front climbers then I just despair. Is it some sort of illogical nod to health and safety - Nigel, any thoughts?!
> (In reply to nigel baker) Would make for interesting climbing not clipping any bolts/pegs...
> Odd one
> Odd one
'Odd' is not the word! I haven't sent off for a permit so haven't got the full context. If this is the kind of idiotic, annoying and just plain daft kind of obstacle that is thrown up in front climbers then I just despair. Is it some sort of illogical nod to health and safety - Nigel, any thoughts?!
In reply to Karl Lunt: can forward it if you want
In reply to Karl Lunt: Hi there Karl,I believe it's nothing to do with health and safety...Mr Walker owns the access to the crag and therefore has the right to make things as awkward as possible without actually saying no! I believe he owns the left part of the crag, but has made it difficult to approach the centre and right any other way. Also he has made a small window of climbing opportunity and if the weather is poor it won't get climbed on. Blue Scar is home to some of Yorkshires/Britains hardest limestone routes and to some great sport climbs, now really denied to international climbers or home grown but further afield climbers....why would they search out an application form, they wouldn't know one existed! If Mr Walkers aim is to slowly erode the climbing population from a major British crag, Blue Scar, then he is succeeding..........I believe!
In reply to nigel baker: Hi Nigel. Yes, it's a real shame that various landowners about the Dales (and elsewhere) are becoming so unhelpful. I've been a couple of times to Blue and agree with you about the quality (trad and sport). It just seems pointless to allow access and yet make it so awkward for no apparent reason - has anyone actually pointed out the absurdity of this to Mr Walker?
In reply to Karl Lunt:
I would assume that he's reading this thread, given that he started it, so is now fully aware of people's views.
I would assume that he's reading this thread, given that he started it, so is now fully aware of people's views.
In reply to Patrick Walker:
It would be interesting to know if there is a climber who supports these arrangements and their reasons for doing so?
I have my permit and it wasn't a difficult process for a BMC member who lives locally and is aware of the arrangement. However, and as Nigel says, it is unlikely to be followed by climbers from further afield.
I believe that Mr Walker owns the fields that are crossed on the approach and the crag left of the fence between the Blue and White Walls. As such the request not to take dogs would have been broken as soon as you set foot off the road and if you are following the agreed route.
Maybe not to everyone's preference but I'd be happy to make a small donation to the Parish Council for parking each time I visit as an alternative (much the same as infrequently happens elsewhere). Not a problem if there was an honesty box available.
Paul
It would be interesting to know if there is a climber who supports these arrangements and their reasons for doing so?
I have my permit and it wasn't a difficult process for a BMC member who lives locally and is aware of the arrangement. However, and as Nigel says, it is unlikely to be followed by climbers from further afield.
I believe that Mr Walker owns the fields that are crossed on the approach and the crag left of the fence between the Blue and White Walls. As such the request not to take dogs would have been broken as soon as you set foot off the road and if you are following the agreed route.
Maybe not to everyone's preference but I'd be happy to make a small donation to the Parish Council for parking each time I visit as an alternative (much the same as infrequently happens elsewhere). Not a problem if there was an honesty box available.
Paul
In reply to Paul Clarke:
Paul, thank you for your offer of charitable donation. Donations to Arncliffe Church can be made payable to St Oswald's Parish Church and sent to my address.
Whilst I do not expect to comment further, please note that neither the access or the Scar are Open Access Land and dogs will not be permitted.
If any climber is unhappy with arrangements (which are designed to prevent abuse and make sure all users are responsible and insured), they are welcome to approach other owners of land with access to the Scar. At present I am the only one permitting access, in an attempt to assist climbers. The arrangements provide no financial benefit to me and require administration. When contributors including those with no apparent understanding of insurance requirements or the need to balance farming and recreational needs, complain, it is tempting to simply close all access. I have not done so because many more support the arrangements and appreciate the permission given.
Paul, thank you for your offer of charitable donation. Donations to Arncliffe Church can be made payable to St Oswald's Parish Church and sent to my address.
Whilst I do not expect to comment further, please note that neither the access or the Scar are Open Access Land and dogs will not be permitted.
If any climber is unhappy with arrangements (which are designed to prevent abuse and make sure all users are responsible and insured), they are welcome to approach other owners of land with access to the Scar. At present I am the only one permitting access, in an attempt to assist climbers. The arrangements provide no financial benefit to me and require administration. When contributors including those with no apparent understanding of insurance requirements or the need to balance farming and recreational needs, complain, it is tempting to simply close all access. I have not done so because many more support the arrangements and appreciate the permission given.
In reply to Patrick Walker:
Just to be clear, please note that the question and subsequent answers regarding dogs were about Moughton Nab not Blue Scar.
Apologies for any confusion.
Just to be clear, please note that the question and subsequent answers regarding dogs were about Moughton Nab not Blue Scar.
Apologies for any confusion.
In reply to Patrick Walker:
Just to be clear:
Looking at the application to climb form
1. Any route with fixed gear is out at Blue Scar - that includes pretty much ALL routes at Blue, as most rely on bolts, threads or pegs for running belays or bolted Lower off belays (unless you top out - there's a thought!) 'The Kill' is OK though - should clean up nicely!
2. I have to join the BMC to climb there - and I suppose any crag in the future if this precedent is set. Climbers are a radical leftfield bunch! Join the club eh.
3. You will keep all my personal information very safe - dont want anymore junk mail!
Yours slightly bewildered,
Arth
Just to be clear:
Looking at the application to climb form
1. Any route with fixed gear is out at Blue Scar - that includes pretty much ALL routes at Blue, as most rely on bolts, threads or pegs for running belays or bolted Lower off belays (unless you top out - there's a thought!) 'The Kill' is OK though - should clean up nicely!
2. I have to join the BMC to climb there - and I suppose any crag in the future if this precedent is set. Climbers are a radical leftfield bunch! Join the club eh.
3. You will keep all my personal information very safe - dont want anymore junk mail!
Yours slightly bewildered,
Arth
> Maybe not to everyone's preference but I'd be happy to make a small donation to the Parish Council for parking each time I visit as an alternative (much the same as infrequently happens elsewhere). Not a problem if there was an honesty box available.
>
Could you let me know where the parking is please as worth avoiding any blocking of the road. I beliebve Dave Musgrove asked if the unused are by the barn was a possibility?>
Thanks
Paul
In reply to Paul Clarke:
Please forgive my terrible spelling - should read - Could you let me know where the parking is please as worth avoiding any blocking of the road. I believe Dave Musgrove asked if the unused area by the barn was a possibility?
Please forgive my terrible spelling - should read - Could you let me know where the parking is please as worth avoiding any blocking of the road. I believe Dave Musgrove asked if the unused area by the barn was a possibility?
In reply to Patrick Walker: Interesting one this.
Climbers used to see a bit of Rock, fancy a bit of it, climb it -sucessfully or not and accept the consequences. Take full responsibility for their own (foolish) actions.
Now we have
1. Landowner requiring us to be members of a club - introducing finance and money transfer.
2. Landowner requiring us to RSPV to their requirements - almost like accepting an invitation (blurring the edges somewhat in terms of liability?)
odd
Climbers used to see a bit of Rock, fancy a bit of it, climb it -sucessfully or not and accept the consequences. Take full responsibility for their own (foolish) actions.
Now we have
1. Landowner requiring us to be members of a club - introducing finance and money transfer.
2. Landowner requiring us to RSPV to their requirements - almost like accepting an invitation (blurring the edges somewhat in terms of liability?)
odd
In reply to arth:
Actually The Kill wouldnt be ok as you will find you need to lower or abseil off a tree and run the risk of ring-barking it (not very environmentally aware and a problem right across the crag under the arrangement - also probably contravenes BMC advice on care for the environment?). The alternative of ploughing upwards through the overhanging choss isnt to be contemplated! You might put a sling around the trees as in the past but then they become fixed gear??
Paul
Actually The Kill wouldnt be ok as you will find you need to lower or abseil off a tree and run the risk of ring-barking it (not very environmentally aware and a problem right across the crag under the arrangement - also probably contravenes BMC advice on care for the environment?). The alternative of ploughing upwards through the overhanging choss isnt to be contemplated! You might put a sling around the trees as in the past but then they become fixed gear??
Paul
In reply to Paul Clarke:
Come on Paul you know that the issue is the increased popularity (due in the main to the new sport routes) causing parking issues on the road. Pat is happy for a few climbers and has no issues with the trad routes that have bolt lower offs. It is the congestion on the road that he really wants to avoid and is hoping that by discouraging sports climbers he can return to the old days when only a few cars would ever be parked on the road.
I too am happy to make a donation to the church/parish in return for parking off road and would be happy to help tidy up the area for a few cars.
Come on Paul you know that the issue is the increased popularity (due in the main to the new sport routes) causing parking issues on the road. Pat is happy for a few climbers and has no issues with the trad routes that have bolt lower offs. It is the congestion on the road that he really wants to avoid and is hoping that by discouraging sports climbers he can return to the old days when only a few cars would ever be parked on the road.
I too am happy to make a donation to the church/parish in return for parking off road and would be happy to help tidy up the area for a few cars.
In reply to Steve Crowe:
Hi Steve
If congestion is the only problem (and I do agree that the sport routes are popular) then I would support your suggestion of last year:
"..... climbers would be willing to contribute a payment for parking perhaps by an honesty box. Unfortunatley £1,500 per annum for approx 10 weeks access per year looks expensive. If that was established as reasonable and became the standard for access to every crag that we climb on then the burden on the BMC would run into millions of pounds!
I do hope that the BMC representatives and yourselves can reach an agreement for continued access."
Might I suggest a maximum of 3 cars by the barn and anyone that arrives later walks in from further afield? After all we are climbers and walking is something we do to access most crags!
Regards
Paul
Hi Steve
If congestion is the only problem (and I do agree that the sport routes are popular) then I would support your suggestion of last year:
"..... climbers would be willing to contribute a payment for parking perhaps by an honesty box. Unfortunatley £1,500 per annum for approx 10 weeks access per year looks expensive. If that was established as reasonable and became the standard for access to every crag that we climb on then the burden on the BMC would run into millions of pounds!
I do hope that the BMC representatives and yourselves can reach an agreement for continued access."
Might I suggest a maximum of 3 cars by the barn and anyone that arrives later walks in from further afield? After all we are climbers and walking is something we do to access most crags!
Regards
Paul
In reply to Paul Clarke:
Did we not have this debate on this site last year? See link.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=465477
Paul, you say,
"It would be interesting to know if there is a climber who supports these arrangements and their reasons for doing so?"
I agree with you and tried essentially to argue this on here last year, but was told basically to shut up. I am perplexed as to how now, a year later, people close to the BMC negotiator/s are asking this question.
Strange and a year older.
Did we not have this debate on this site last year? See link.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=465477
Paul, you say,
"It would be interesting to know if there is a climber who supports these arrangements and their reasons for doing so?"
I agree with you and tried essentially to argue this on here last year, but was told basically to shut up. I am perplexed as to how now, a year later, people close to the BMC negotiator/s are asking this question.
Strange and a year older.
In reply to Patrick Walker:
I've found both Patrick and the farmer very helpful and accommodating if you go along with the access arrangements and approach the crag by the agreed route.
As for the parking, it's just a matter of common sense and courtesy not to block entrances to the barns, fields or narrow parts of the road. As Paul say, if the parking spots are taken, tough! Go find a suitable spot and walk from there and next time get out of bed a bit earlier. If you are arriving in multiple cars leave as many as you can elsewhere, maybe at the big layby near Kilnsey, and drive up in one vehicle to avoid causing congestion.
I've found both Patrick and the farmer very helpful and accommodating if you go along with the access arrangements and approach the crag by the agreed route.
As for the parking, it's just a matter of common sense and courtesy not to block entrances to the barns, fields or narrow parts of the road. As Paul say, if the parking spots are taken, tough! Go find a suitable spot and walk from there and next time get out of bed a bit earlier. If you are arriving in multiple cars leave as many as you can elsewhere, maybe at the big layby near Kilnsey, and drive up in one vehicle to avoid causing congestion.
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
Paul also says,"It would be interesting to know if there is a climber who supports these arrangements and their reasons for doing so?"
It appears he has found one.
Paul also says,"It would be interesting to know if there is a climber who supports these arrangements and their reasons for doing so?"
It appears he has found one.
In reply to gerainte:
I don't particularly like the arrangement but I accept the guy owns the land and I have no right to climb there if he refuses me access. Therefore it's better to work with him, jump through the not-particularly-onerous hoops and enjoy my climbing rather than have a hissy fit and cock the whole thing up for everyone.
I don't particularly like the arrangement but I accept the guy owns the land and I have no right to climb there if he refuses me access. Therefore it's better to work with him, jump through the not-particularly-onerous hoops and enjoy my climbing rather than have a hissy fit and cock the whole thing up for everyone.
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
I would like to use this forum to thank those who helped the permit system work last year. The farmer reported courteous use and sensible parking and it has been a pleasure to welcome climbers. I hope the wet weather abates. Whilst I will continue to issue permits for the time-being it is fair to let you know that a Mr. Rob Dyer of the BMC has written to me and said that "the climbing community and I would be grateful" if I "would be happy to remove your access point". This is apparently in anticipation of securing an alternative access (of which I am not aware). Accordingly, if you find access across my land closed, please be aware that it will be at the direct request of the BMC.
I would like to use this forum to thank those who helped the permit system work last year. The farmer reported courteous use and sensible parking and it has been a pleasure to welcome climbers. I hope the wet weather abates. Whilst I will continue to issue permits for the time-being it is fair to let you know that a Mr. Rob Dyer of the BMC has written to me and said that "the climbing community and I would be grateful" if I "would be happy to remove your access point". This is apparently in anticipation of securing an alternative access (of which I am not aware). Accordingly, if you find access across my land closed, please be aware that it will be at the direct request of the BMC.
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