UKC

Hi there , I was out in the lakes last week doing a few scrambles with friends when I got to wondering! I have never learn't how to use a rope with out a harness.. If I feel the need to rope up I have always had my harness with me and away to go. On a few sections a friend of mine was a little nervous and could have done with a short rope as confidence.. so any vids or instructions on roping up for those occasions where you just take a short rope just in case would be great.

Ben

In reply to Cadairmanuk: BMC DVDs are hard to beat. A day with a guide even better.

In reply to Cadairmanuk:
The classic way to tie on without a harness is to use a Bowline knot tied in situ around your waist. It's what everyone did before harnesses became the norm.

In reply to Dave Perry:

Yeah I guess a bow line would work fine apart from been uncomfortable , we used to use and train that way in the fire service years ago.

In reply to Cadairmanuk:
Back in the "old days" we used to use a "waist length" which was a length of about twenty feet of what was called "quarter weight nylon cord". You wrapped it round your waist six or seven times, depending on how many chips you ate, and tied it off with a reef knot. You then clipped a karabiner on to it and connected the rope to the karabiner. I suppose the modern equivalent of "quarter weight" would be 5mm or 6mm accessory cord.

It's a wonder any of us survived without severe internal injuries really.

Happy days!!

In reply to cisco:

Alternatively, several turns of the rope round the waist, tied off with a bowline on the bight round the turns.

In reply to Cadairmanuk:

On the Cuillin Ridge, and on any scrambles where I take a rope 'just in case' an abseil is required, I take a tape sling and screwgate that can quickly be used as a harness.

Back in the day (when harnesses had just been invented, but we couldn't afford them), I think we called them the Parisienne Baudrier.

http://fatcanyoners.org/bush-guide/making-a-tape-harness/

In reply to andyhodges:

You clearly don't need to hire a guide and the answer's already been given - use a bowline knot. It's an easy knot to learn ("up the hole, around the pole ...." etc) and isn't *that* uncomfortable. Anyway, you may only need to tie on for a short period of time whilst scrambling. A more complicated alternative would be to make an improvised harness using tape slings, but why bother? I'd just keep it dead simple and use a bowline.

Good luck with whichever method you end up using.

Dave

In reply to Fredt:

Wow she has a better figure than mine for sure!

Yeah I guess I was looking for some magic answer but a bow line will do nicely! I think I know how to tie one as I use it every day which is a bonus !! We used to have to tie them round a dummy in the dark at the bottom of a shaft in training in B.A with the flames licking my butt!!

Thanks

Ben

In reply to Fredt:


Good site, except for:

http://fatcanyoners.org/2012/05/09/nude-walk-in-the-mountains/

Waah!

In reply to Al Evans: Falling off without a harness: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/68366425/Public%20Gallery/First%20Leader%20Fall.jpg

Al

In reply to Cadairmanuk:

I tie a bowline but with the rope making a double turn round my waist, the turn goes through the "eye" of the bowline. It softens the tug a bit, although in the case of a fall I've always found that things happen so quickly that you don't feel much at the waist, more the bangs and knocks against the rock.

Out of interest, why a bowline and not a fig-8?

In reply to Cadairmanuk:

After a day of climbing on southern sandstone without a harness, I did a fair bit of experimenting.


I ended up using multiple turns round the waist and, importantly, when tying off, all the turns then need to be held together otherwise the last loop will simply take all the load.

A system of a half hitch around the whole bundle then two half hitches around the live rope worked well, was quick to tie and felt secure - certainly for that application.

In reply to jdawg_85:

It is very hard where to start the knot with a FOE.

In reply to GrahamD: Makes sense when I think about it, cheers!

In reply to jdawg_85:

Bowlines are quicker to tie and are much more adjustable than a fig-8, however other than that there is no reason, either works.

That said, on Summer Mountain Leader courses, some providers will now teach basic ropework just using overhand knots to keep everything super simple and that works fine as well.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

Bowlines can also be tied one-handed, which can be handy if you are being rescued from an ill-considered solo.

In reply to Cadairmanuk: Bowline is a great knot for speed and ease of tying & adjustment, coupled with good strength. It's normally my first choice when tying a rope to a tree or boulder. However its Achilles heel is that it can be very weak when the two sides of the loop are spread at a wide angle (eg one rope pointing to left hip and one pointing to the right). Tying a half double fishermans (barrel knot) as a stopper will make it a lot safer but there are knots that are better suited to the task. One of the reasons that ML courses use the overhand so much is that it's much less 'picky' in how it gets loaded (as well as being really simple to tie). Other than using a rethreaded overhand around the waist you can make an easily adjustable loop like this:

-tie a fig 8 a couple of meters from the end
-tie a half double fishermans ('normal' stopper knot) above the fig 8 to make a loop

Should give you a loop that slides open so you can put it on but the fig 8 stops it getting too small. Works well for quick resizing/swapovers for the next one if there are a few of you.

Hope that's all clear as mud!


Tim