/ "Over the Moors" who grades these routes?

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astley007 - on 24 May 2012
Firstly the BMC over the moors guide is fantastic. But....
armed with my new copy of the guide went to Running Hill Pits last night and got a "good spanking"
Mangled digit..never 6a!!! good 6b for those of average size.and E3!!! void (tremadoc) is easier and thats E4!!!
Spanner wall is E3!!!
Windbreaker E2 5b!!! the same grade as Browns Eliminate at Froggatt..know which I'd rather do again..windbreaker much more serious proposition
Then we come to
Cochybondhu (which must be some uppermill dialect for "lets really F*ck them up on this one!!)E1..its hard 6a climbing, very precarious and a serious leg breaker.
These must have been graded by some "yokel local" who is 6ft 7inch have six fingers and never climb anywhere else.
On saying that I will be back for more next week (if the sun shines) but will take the gradings with a pinch of salt!!!!!
However, if I do meet him I will smile, nod my head and agree with his grading..and then make a quick exit.
Its tough in the Chew!!!
gingerwolf - on 24 May 2012
In reply to astley007:
> Firstly the BMC over the moors guide is fantastic. But....
> armed with my new copy of the guide went to Running Hill Pits last night and got a "good spanking"

Grow a pair!

> These must have been graded by some "yokel local" who is 6ft 7inch have six fingers and never climb anywhere else.
> On saying that I will be back for more next week (if the sun shines) but will take the gradings with a pinch of salt!!!!!
> However, if I do meet him I will smile, nod my head and agree with his grading..and then make a quick exit.
> Its tough in the Chew!!!
His names Martin Koscis!!! :P

astley007 - on 24 May 2012
In reply to gingerwolf:
Is Martin 6ft -7inch?
isnt he the Dwarf who keeps the troll chained up
has a ring of "lord of the chew" about it!!
and the photo on page 513 is printed wrong as now the spanner is the other way up!!
In reply to astley007: The Pits just sucks all the power out of you. Just the nature of the place... (I fell off Plumb Line, I think the only time in 20 years that I've fallen off a VS - and no slump on to gear either, a real whipper ripping out one panic placed friend and another that I thought was bomber!

The Pits just eat up visitors for breakfast. :)
astley007 - on 24 May 2012
In reply to TobyA: did plumbine also..was harder than croton oil (classic HVS at Rivelin)..so the uppermill "troll" strikes again!!
CharlieMack - on 24 May 2012
In reply to astley007:

I was at Den Lane quarry the other day and thought the opposite, that they were over graded.
Hole in the wall gets E4 6a!? More like 5b. And Three Notch Slab gets 4c? VS understandably, as its basically a solo (although a guy there got a tricam into the last pocket before the arete!).
In reply to astley007:
> Firstly the BMC over the moors guide is fantastic. But....
> armed with my new copy of the guide went to Running Hill Pits last night and got a "good spanking"
> Mangled digit..never 6a!!! good 6b for those of average size.and E3!!! void (tremadoc) is easier and thats E4!!!
> Spanner wall is E3!!!
> Windbreaker E2 5b!!! the same grade as Browns Eliminate at Froggatt..know which I'd rather do again..windbreaker much more serious proposition
> Then we come to
> Cochybondhu (which must be some uppermill dialect for "lets really F*ck them up on this one!!)E1..its hard 6a climbing, very precarious and a serious leg breaker.
> These must have been graded by some "yokel local" who is 6ft 7inch have six fingers and never climb anywhere else.
> On saying that I will be back for more next week (if the sun shines) but will take the gradings with a pinch of salt!!!!!
> However, if I do meet him I will smile, nod my head and agree with his grading..and then make a quick exit.
> Its tough in the Chew!!!


I can't check at the mo but I think most, if not all those grades are pretty much unchanged from the 1998 Chew Valley guide!


Chris
Sean Kelly - on 24 May 2012
In reply to astley007: Browns's Eliminate had a lot of friable flakes at one time so E2 but very soft these days, but retains the grade to keep off those that are not good enough and what with no gear to speak of...
grubes - on 24 May 2012
In reply to astley007:
> (In reply to TobyA) did plumbine also..was harder than croton oil (classic HVS at Rivelin)..so the uppermill "troll" strikes again!!


HAHAHAHAHA!!!
Welcome to chew f'n valley!

I thought plumb line was fine at VS. Well protected nothing harder than 4c sustained and pumpy but not really too hard and good rests.

RE: the spanner picture. The spanner actually broke off last year and has recently had part of it reattached.

T'Pits is a place to go and get brought back to earth and spanked.
I can confirm most if not all routes were climbed in the last few years to confirm the grades

Also be glad for the new guide the old one had sodom at HVS ...
Ann S on 24 May 2012
In reply to astley007:

I've been smacked off a diff in the Chew valley-couldn't get off the bloody ground.
Furanco C - on 24 May 2012
In reply to grubes:
> (In reply to astley007)
> [...]
>
>
> HAHAHAHAHA!!!
> Welcome to chew f'n valley!
>
>

Yeh, hilarious. I really really despise this laughing at sandbags attitude. They're not just unfriendly, they're bloody dangerous. Sandbagging doesn't make you hard, in fact it normally indicates complete inadequacies. How long are we going to have to wait for pan-area leveling of grades?

Please stop sandbagging,

Jurgan

P.S. this wasn't particularly aimed at you.
Hardonicus - on 24 May 2012
In reply to astley007: Welcome to the Westside bitch!
grubes - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Juran C:
> (In reply to grubes)
> [...]
>
> Yeh, hilarious. I really really despise this laughing at sandbags attitude. They're not just unfriendly, they're bloody dangerous. Sandbagging doesn't make you hard, in fact it normally indicates complete inadequacies. How long are we going to have to wait for pan-area leveling of grades?

My laughing was to do with saying that Plumbline was harder then a HVS. Yes its not the easiest VS you will do but it is by no means the hardest VS in Chew. It felt quite a bit easier than fairy nuff at Standing stones and about level maybe just a bit harder than Twin crack corner at SS too.

I did not comment on the other routes as I don't think I have done them.

This guide in particular (as you know) has had a lot of work done on grade checking. i.e. a VD went up to E5 I believe. Theres is a VS at shooter that went up to E3 and a HVS that went up to E2.
The only sandbag I know of was when a certain guidebook editor sent me up a Severe 4a in the rain on a grim summers day which turned out to be VS 4a. I was brushing green damp foot holds before smearing on them while gearlessly traversing over a drop. Dave Simmonite got a great photo of it though.

> P.S. this wasn't particularly aimed at you.

Don't worry not deleted you from my farcebook friends list
> P.S. this wasn't particularly aimed at you.

Jim Crow - on 25 May 2012
In reply to astley007:

Nowt wrong with those grades.

Just "man" up.
In reply to grubes:

> My laughing was to do with saying that Plumbline was harder then a HVS. Yes its not the easiest VS you will do but it is by no means the hardest VS in Chew. It felt quite a bit easier than fairy nuff at Standing stones

Fair Nuff is tough, but I onsighted that no problem, whilst I fell of Plumb Line. Make of that what you will! :)
Furanco C - on 25 May 2012
In reply to grubes:

I know that The Reverend and gang have had a positive effect on reducing sandbagging, but on a general UK basis there is a general admiration for sandbagging, which I really detest; this idea that the area with the lowest grades for a said difficulty of climb is in some way the most masculine, or 'hard as nails' etc etc.

Hopefully it's a generational thing and will die out with the older generations, but I still see younger chaps out there thinking it's cool to grade boulder problems excessively 'stiffly'. I look forward to a time when a E4 at Stanage is the same as an E4 at Running Hill Pits and an E4 on Sca Fel and an E4 at the Wainstones. At the moment it's just an embarrassing joke for the areas that have all the sandbags.
Dave Garnett - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Juran C:
> >
> I look forward to a time when a E4 at Stanage is the same as an E4 at Running Hill Pits and an E4 on Sca Fel and an E4 at the Wainstones. At the moment it's just an embarrassing joke for the areas that have all the sandbags.

But that will never be true if you mean that just because you can onsight E4 at Stanage you'll be able to turn up at Ramshaw for the first time and do the same. And that's just variations in style within grit.

I think you'd be unusually flexible if you really were immediately equally comfortable at your top grade on Hen Cloud, Huntsman's Leap, Etive Slabs, Blackchurch, Kilnsey, Vivian Quarry and Cyrn Las, for instance.
grubes - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Juran C:
Are you sure this is sand bagging? Or not just trying to avoid abuse?
A well known british climber graded his routes "softly" at the top end and ended up getting abuse from all quarters.

Grading seems to be a case of you screwed what ever you do grade soft you are overgrading for attention, sandbag you are putting people at risk of injury.
Even Dave Mac mentioned this in his latest blog. He grading his new problem 8B/+ but if it was at magic woods it would be 8C if it was at font it may be less or something like that.

I think local grading works for the locals/regulars but not so well for people that travel. Just look at millstone vs stanage grades. inverted V and the mall get the same grade but I think most would find the mall a grade harder than inverted? This is expected as most know millstone is hard graded and stanage is full of soft touches. No? or is this just my experience
parkovski - on 25 May 2012
In reply to astley007:

It was pretty sweaty there on Wednesday night, especially in the cracks. Spanner Wall has (in my opinion) been tamed a little with the sturdily reinstated spanner - but the sweat on the slopers made it feel hard overall. Next time you go do Weaver's Wall, I don't know what grade it gets in the new guide but it's certainly not a sandbag at E2 and is in western grit at E3!
Furanco C - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Dave Garnett: That's not what I mean. There are E4s that despite many attempts have only seen a couple of repeats in 25 years and E4s that get onsighted every weekend. It's not because you have to get used to eash rock type, it's because people deliberately sandbag routes.


I agree Grubes that it's not all deliberate, but I know how the 'First ascentionst's mind' works. You think 'it's probably E5', but I'll give it E4 just to be safe. A decent human being (like I assume James Pearson was) then says to himself "ah, sod trying to look cool or avoid criticism; I'll give it the grade I think it is". This isn't sandbagging, but it's lazy and cowardly and leads to bad grading.

If everyone just plays it safe and grades stuff a grade less than they think it might be then we'd end up with a grading system that just get's stiffer and stiffer. People need to get some courage and try and improve the sport for everyone, not just create a legacy of irritatingly 'hilariously' undergraded routes.
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Dave Garnett - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Juran C:

OK. I think it's probably because few of these routes were on sighted on the first ascent. You clean a route, maybe practise the odd tricky move, work out where the gear goes and then it all goes smoothly and feels like E2 or whatever. If you then also knock a grade off to avoid looking an idiot when everyone pisses up it you end up with something that's E3 to onsight going in the guide at E1.

Unless it's repeated and checked of course, which I'm sure they will have been in the magnum opus.
Furanco C - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Dave Garnett: Yeh, exactly. You're totally right there. The one area I do know a lot about, many of the FAs were done 'onsight'; this meant that they were cleaned on ab and maybe had the odd move 'held'. I don't know about you, but I could climb about 2 grades harder like this than properly onsight. I see this as totally understandable and to be expected, but what irritates me is when the people who did this try and maintain their legacy by semi-hiding these facts and then have a bombardment of sarky, albeit partially well-meaning, comments about how soft people are today.

I respect the past and a lot of the amazing things people did 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago, but what I don't respect is BS- and there's a lot of BS around most FAs. (even my own ;))
ste_d - on 25 May 2012
In reply to astley007:

mangled digit is hard for 6a, or easy 6b, quite sequency and worth noting the FA is quite tall

spanner wall, yeah maybe

windbreaker is quite steady

in general the pits are steep and some of the routes dirty, they probably feel abit harder than some of their eastern counterparts

the old chew guide was 1988, and there has been quite abit of grade 'creep' in the new guide...
Dan Lane - on 25 May 2012
In reply to astley007:

I've not had chance to read the whole thread but I think you just need a good dose of 'man up!'

Plumbline is benchmark VS and in no way shape or form is it anywhere near as hard as croton oil! Spanner wall is E2, that's why it's given E2!

You're not at Stanage any more...things are graded properly over 'ere!

that's all for now
Dan
Furanco C - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Dan Lane: You're a nobhead Dan. Just cause you're Britain's most middle-aged teenager doesn't mean you have to go around pretending to be Don Whillians. Don't be a pillock, just because people named Dan Lane quarry after you. Todger.
Martin Kocsis, BMC on 25 May 2012 - thebmc.claranet.co.uk
In reply to astley007: To return to the original issue (for a moment at least):
Mangled Digit doesn't have a 6b move on it. I'm 5'8" and can do it, so you must be missing something. I've failed on Void twice.
Windbreaker is bang on for E2 5b. I remember eight people soloing it one evening and we all thought the grade was fair. Just because you're scared doen'nt mean it's technically harder, you just have to concentrate on staying relaxed.
Cochybondu I think that's fine, it's solid 5c (not 6a) and if you muff it you just jump right onto very nearby grass. Highball, innit.

Love from,
The BMC
Furanco C - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Martin Kocsis, BMC:
> and if you muff it you just jump right onto very nearby grass. Highball, innit.

"The voice of the BMC."

Simon Caldwell - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Dan Lane:
> You're not at Stanage any more...things are graded properly over 'ere!

If the new guide had upgraded 99% of its routes to bring them in line with Stanage grades, this thread would be droning on about grade creep instead :)
Martin Kocsis, BMC on 25 May 2012 - thebmc.claranet.co.uk
In reply to Juran C: Hi Juran, I'm the voice of me, and having been involved with the guide and having climbed on these crags for a very long time, I thought it worth contributing.

Talking of contributors, Dan has been a stalwart of the team for a few years and has done an awful lot to move the guide forward and into production. Getting up at 5am to get crags shots on the moors, giving up lots of his free time, going out in all weathers with the team and in the process contributing some great shots to the guide. He has earned a great deal of respect for his efforts from a wide range of locals. It's a shame you feel the need to be abusive on a public forum, but that's how it sometimes goes. I doubt Dan will have the inclination to reply, he is very sanguine about forums and how others choose to behave. He also has a very well developed sense of irony and humour, and he is all the better company for that.

Have a great Jubilee week.
Simon Caldwell - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Martin Kocsis, BMC:

I'm impressed at the way you arranged for some warm dry weather to coincide with the publication of the new guide.

Can you have a word with the guys doing the new Lakes Winter book to sort out a good winter?
Furanco C - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Martin Kocsis, BMC: There's no need for this idle racism.
astley007 - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Dan Lane: thanks for the advice i'll try and be tougher in future!!
Regarding Spanner wall..even the guide states "at the higher end of the grade" so when does hard E2 become "easy" E3. If you "fluff" the moves near the top you will be very close to the ground...if the upsidedown spanner holds (its been there yrs). Should be graded for a visiting climber to onsite!! not a "local yokel" that lives in the chew!!
Come back when you solo'd cochybondhu..confirm that its E1 and 5c and I'll buy you a wheelbarrow to carry your testicles in
Cheers
Ian Carr - on 25 May 2012
In reply to astley007: I hope you like the book ?

I do object to being referred to as a "Yokel Local" and for your information I'm only 6'4" and have the same number of fingers as you. That said, I did nearly loose one in 1982 when I pealed my finger like a banana on the FA of Mangled Digit. Which is a good 6a, especially on first acquaintances as commonly demonstrated.

When grading a route for a guide you always have to put yourself in the shoes of the newcomer to the crag / route and grade it accordingly. That said, there will always be ups and down due to preference, rock-type and body shape / height. The key is in the word "Guide".

The Pits is a great spot for an evening. Hope you come back soon and explore some of the lesser known routes.

Regards, Ian
astley007 - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Martin Kocsis, BMC:
Cochybondu I think that's fine, it's solid 5c (not 6a) and if you muff it you just jump right onto very nearby grass. Highball, innit.
But Martin at my age I wont bounce, I would just break!!!!
I've failed on Void twice.
So Chew grades are right and Welsh (Cymru) are wrong?
Just to put in another perspective, the photo of you on consolation prize is absolutely stunning why did it not make front cover? You must also use a wheelbarrow for your testicles...thats probably while you find cochybondhu easy!!!
Enjoy climbing in the sun!!
Cheers
popebenedictus - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Juran C:

Your postings remind me of another NYM local.
metal arms on 25 May 2012
In reply to Juran C:
>
> I agree Grubes that it's not all deliberate, but I know how the 'First ascentionst's mind' works. You think 'it's probably E5', but I'll give it E4 just to be safe. A decent human being (like I assume James Pearson was) then says to himself "ah, sod trying to look cool or avoid criticism; I'll give it the grade I think it is". This isn't sandbagging, but it's lazy and cowardly and leads to bad grading.

Hang on. Have I got this right.

Undergrading is - 'bloody dangerous'
Overgrading is - 'lazy and cowardly'

Have you got a formula to get it right first time?

And did you just call James Pearson cowardly? He was a real coward on WoL and trying to flash Muy Caliwhatev it's called!
Furanco C - on 25 May 2012
In reply to metal arms:
> (In reply to Juran C)
> [...]
>
> Hang on. Have I got this right.
>
> Undergrading is - 'bloody dangerous'

Correct
> Overgrading is - 'lazy and cowardly'
>

Wrong. Undergrading is.

> Have you got a formula to get it right first time?
>
> And did you just call James Pearson cowardly? He was a real coward on WoL and trying to flash Muy Caliwhatev it's called!

Wrong. I said the opposite. Giving something a big grade takes balls, even if that grade is later found to be wrong. I think it's pretty depressing that James Pearson has received so much abuse, whereas Dave Birkett just gets accolades and a couple of chuckles at his total sandbags.
Furanco C - on 25 May 2012
In reply to popebenedictus: I should point out that I am good friends with Mr. Dan and that was butter joke.
metal arms on 25 May 2012
In reply to Juran C:

Apologies. I must have mis-read your post. I thought you were contradicting yourself.

Kind of agree with you then. Although Birkett doesn't really sandbag mortals like me. Isn't it that he doesn't reckon something can really be harder than E9, as his E9's are deadly, and there aren't really different shades of dead?

Please excuse my terrible para-phrasing, mis-quoting and wild assumptions on this.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Juran C: Birketts hard routes get E9, the fact that Birkett (and subsequent acsensionists) downgraded Walk of Life to E9 from Pearsons E12 indicates that Birkett is spot on and is nails and has been for years.
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Furanco C - on 25 May 2012
In reply to metal arms:

From what I've seen, that's what he seems to be saying. Plainly he doesn't seem to understand that F8c is harder than F8a+- the physical difficulty of the route affecting the trad grade.

E grades and Eng tech grades work, but they're being damaged by 'grade widening' at the upper grades. If you split current 6c into new 6c and 7a and current 7a into new 7a and 7b, then you'd have a far more useful system. We can do it with boulder grades, so it's obviously possible. The only thing in its way is people worrying about looking soft. A grading system is there to grade routes, to reflect their difficulty as accurately as possible, which people seem to forget in favour of making some kind of statement.
Frogger - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Juran C:
> (In reply to Martin Kocsis, BMC)
> [...]
>
> "The voice of the BMC."

Lol!
metal arms on 25 May 2012
In reply to Juran C:
> (In reply to metal arms)
>
> From what I've seen, that's what he seems to be saying. Plainly he doesn't seem to understand that F8c is harder than F8a+- the physical difficulty of the route affecting the trad grade.

Are any of his E9's F8c? Maybe if/when he puts something up this hard he will give it E10... Usual caveats about depth of my knowledge apply!

> E grades and Eng tech grades work, but they're being damaged by 'grade widening' at the upper grades. If you split current 6c into new 6c and 7a and current 7a into new 7a and 7b, then you'd have a far more useful system.

Does this not happen already? e.g. Hard 6b or give the 'equivalent' french grade. Anyway all a bit off topic as there are about a million other threads dedicated to mending the UK grading system.

> A grading system is there to grade routes, to reflect their difficulty as accurately as possible, which people seem to forget in favour of making some kind of statement.

A bit of a slight on Mr Birkett's personality methinks. From vids (yeah I know) I got the impression that he was actually pretty humble so unlikely to be keen to make an egotistical statement...
Martin Kocsis, BMC on 25 May 2012 - host81-141-23-223.wlms-broadband.com
astley007 - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Martin Kocsis, BMC:
Hi Martin,
its 4pm on a sunny friday, this now has over 1500 "hits" and its climbing thread!!!
Hopefully its created some interst in "the guide" and copies are "flying" out of the BMC shop, and there will be loads of climbers on Kinder, Chew etc this sunny weekend.
Routes will get cleaned and climbed, and the debate over grades will continue in the pub after a good days cragging.
Disclaimer: hopefully no "locals" have had their reputations defamed, deluded, detrimented, denuded or even derriere'd in the making of this thread.
Catch up soon
Its time to climb
Furanco C - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Martin Kocsis, BMC: Can I have a free one for removing all that fixed gear from Tintwistle?
Dan Lane - on 25 May 2012
In reply to astley007:
> (In reply to Martin Kocsis, BMC)

> Hopefully its created some interst in "the guide" and copies are "flying" out of the BMC shop, and there will be loads of climbers on Kinder, Chew etc this sunny weekend.

I know I'll be out on Kinder this weekend, that's for sure!
Martin Kocsis, BMC on 25 May 2012 - host81-141-23-223.wlms-broadband.com
No you flipping can't, that cost money to put in and I am grumpy about it. If the pegs can't be replaced like for like, I might have to place a **** instead, you won't be removing that you monkey.In reply to Juran C:
Simon Caldwell - on 25 May 2012
In reply to astley007:
> there will be loads of climbers on Kinder, Chew etc this sunny weekend.

I think I may go to Stanage, it'll be less busy
Furanco C - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Martin Kocsis, BMC: Can I have a free guide if I snap the bolt?
Offwidth - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Ann S:

Which Diff out of interest?


In reply to Toby A

Only one vote from 21 for HVS on Plumb line on UKC logbooks!

For the OP:

For the harder stuff at T'pits there was enough cross fertilization in the guides to ensure a reasonable degree of consistency. Athough Stanage is maybe graded the easiest of the new series there are still some brutes there.

Mangled Digit is 6a in Rockfax
Spanner Wall is E2 in Rockfax
Windbreaker is E2 5b in Rockfax
Cochybondhu is 5c in Rockfax (although it is E2)

'''and I dont think any of them changed grade in the new edition following Rockfax/UKC votes.
Offwidth - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Toreador:

"I think I may go to Stanage, it'll be less busy"

That'll be the day! If nothing else there isn't enough parking for most crags to get that busy. On Monday pm we didnt see another climber on Kinder SE and only ten folk on Dovestones on a perfect day for that crag on Thursday pm.... on that subject I wonder if the couple of lads who did Answer Crack as we left are reading and enjoyed it.
In reply to Offwidth:

> Only one vote from 21 for HVS on Plumb line on UKC logbooks!

I didn't say it was or should be, I just said it the only VS I've fallen off (or at least the only one I remember falling off).
Offwidth - on 25 May 2012
In reply to TobyA:

So what if you fell off... Ive known an E5 leader fall off a VD ...without context it's meaningless. Was it a hot day, were you climbing well, are you good at VS jamming routes in quarries, etc?
craig h - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Offwidth:
> > Mangled Digit is 6a in Rockfax
> Spanner Wall is E2 in Rockfax
> Windbreaker is E2 5b in Rockfax
> Cochybondhu is 5c in Rockfax (although it is E2)
>
> '''and I dont think any of them changed grade in the new edition following Rockfax/UKC votes.

This is not a good indication as to how hard the routes are! as it's only Yokels who climb here and vote. The Stanage crowd just complain as there are no chalk marks to follow or being able to watch someone or three doing the route before you - possibly time for this to be added into the adjective grade of a climb :-)
Ann S on 25 May 2012
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Ann S)
>
> Which Diff out of interest?
>
It was Eastern Slab at Ravenstones. I notice Toreador (who must have a few cojones with a name like that) made the comment - " poorly protected VDiff climbing". I have happily led up to MVS in the lakes but still couldn't get off the ground when my mate took over the lead. That's Chew grit for you. Even Chris Tan who was there agreed it was a bit on the stiff side.

astley007 - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Offwidth:
For the harder stuff at T'pits there was enough cross fertilization in the guides to ensure a reasonable degree of consistency. Athough Stanage is maybe graded the easiest of the new series there are still some brutes there.

Mangled Digit is 6a in Rockfax
Spanner Wall is E2 in Rockfax
Windbreaker is E2 5b in Rockfax
Cochybondhu is 5c in Rockfax (although it is E2)

'''and I dont think any of them changed grade in the new edition following Rockfax/UKC votes.

So the BMC is plagiarising the Rockfax guidebook, thats a first! surely not?...It would never happen?
craig h - on 25 May 2012
In reply to astley007:
> So the BMC is plagiarising the Rockfax guidebook, thats a first! surely not?...It would never happen?

I think you'll find out that's the grade of the routes, no point saying a banana is orange just to be different; but you may argue itís green or black if you are being pedantic !
PD - on 25 May 2012
In reply to astley007:

My two'penneth - First of all fantastic guide. Flicking through the 'Over the Moors' guide there are a few tech upgrades from the 1988 Chew guide. Gradings are gradings, differ from region to region, rock type to rock type, same rock type different regions, etc, etc, - use good tactics, observe the route,if it feels right, step on...gradings are at best a guide...

Don't know if it's the new guide but the boulders were busy tonight + team up on Wimberry doing Freddie's Finale...:-). Last time I saw it this busy was just after the 88 guide came out ;-)
Simon Caldwell - on 25 May 2012
In reply to Ann S:
> Eastern Slab at Ravenstones

New guide gives it VDiff - "a boulder problem start leads to a pleasant but poorly protected romp..."
Ann S on 25 May 2012
In reply to Toreador:

Thanks for the update-the boulder problem start is a high left foot rockover above undercut rock. However hard I tried I could not prevent my right foot/leg from swinging under the undercut and throwing me off balance. Hence could not get off the ground so found an alternative start. I also found the rest of it a poorly protected smeary/balancey non-romp. But then I am a rubbish climber.
hoodmonkey - on 26 May 2012
In reply to PD:

We were out enjoying the boulders for most of the day but didn't notice anyone else bouldering.

Nowt to do with the new guide though I'm afraid - just fans of Wimberry!
Offwidth - on 26 May 2012
In reply to Ann S:

Thanks for the tip... we kept the grade at Diff... may need a re-assessment...how's this for serendipity: I think Chris Tan may have taken the picture of Moff on our camera for our website. Scoop Wall (round to the left), of course, was the super low grade sandbag round that way.

http://offwidth.uptosummit.com/ravenstones.html ...
.. the picture for East & Main Crag

In reply to Craig_h

I agree with that... watching lots of other folk and following the chalk really should invalidate the onsight. It can also lead you into trouble...the chalk on Matchstick Crack, Dovestones on Thursday took the much harder left exit.

We certainly try to grade the same for everywhere we check. At Stanage our site grades were as likely to be lower than the scripts as higher and about a quareter grade on average below the UKC votes. That was rare on the moors (where the votes were genrally harsher than our view) although there are a few we felt were soft: for instance Pinnacle Route 2 at Dovestones we thought was possibly S 4b.

In reply to Astley007

So the BMC plagiarised themseleves then were plagiarised by Rockfax who plagiarised themselves and then were plagiarised by the BMC. Alternately local activists with the same views helped both sets of guides and gave the same views. I'd wonder how Occam's razor would fall on your argument. Are T'pits grades harder than stanage?...almost certainly but have you done Kelly's Overhang, Tower Crack, The Mangler, The Unprintable, Punklet, Esso Extra, Archangel, Harvest and Old Friends to say what hard for the grade routes compare at the two venues? (apologies for the lack of hard E2's for some reason I've never been around when anyone did these)
PD - on 26 May 2012
In reply to hoodmonkey:

Busier in the cooler temps of the evening, seven out on the boulders...8 incl me...Had fun listening to the seconds comments winging down from Freddie's Finale...

I do think the new guide will temp more people out in The Chew, for a while anyway...that's what happened after the 88 guide came out.
Simon Caldwell - on 27 May 2012
In reply to astley007:
Had a good day at Lad's Leap yesterday, despite the errors in the new guide. The grading is pretty consistent - about a grade lower than the same routes would get in most other areas - but anyone who like us tries following the topo for Slanting Crack (VDiff) is in for a shock!
Alex Thompson - on 28 May 2012
In reply to Offwidth:
Loving the grade debate folks.

Sorry Offwidth, the chalk on Matchstick was from myself and the Hudds Uni Club... the right exit didn't look half as much fun.

BTW Chris "Death Products" Tan has posted a ton of photos that didn't make it into the guidebook. If you were involved with the various guidebook meets over the years or want to get a feel for the Moorland crags, take a gander. Such great times, here's for many more!
http://www.kakibusok.plus.com/Gallery/2012/OverTheMoorsOutakes/
PD - on 28 May 2012
In reply to Alex Thompson: Great photo's, nice record of putting the guide together. Love the light on photo's 344 - 348'ish (Bouldering Chew skyline).
Offwidth - on 28 May 2012
In reply to Alex Thompson:

I suspected it might be from an earlier post of yours...

The lh exit looked good but quite a bit harder.. was it HSish?
grubes - on 28 May 2012
In reply to Alex Thompson:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> Loving the grade debate folks.
>
> Sorry Offwidth, the chalk on Matchstick was from myself and the Hudds Uni Club... the right exit didn't look half as much fun.
Bloody students not cleaning chalk off after they climb rant, rage, etc

I was up at Kinder north yesterday. Fanstatic nice breeze great walk and a good spanking. A good grit day out west
Hardonicus - on 28 May 2012
In reply to astley007: JESTER CRACK VS 5a.

REALLY???????
wolfman - on 30 May 2012
In reply to astley007: Bob Whittaker(from Rochdale) did a lot of routes in the Pits in the 60's and 70's without the modern protection available today. Is the grading system now geared for popular ascents for the younger'modern' climber if so leave it to us 'old geesers' who live in ther area!!
Jon Stewart - on 30 May 2012
In reply to astley007:

Firstly, I can't wait to get my hands on the guide, it looks brilliant.

Secondly, I'm delighted that the tradition of the moorland sandbag has been kept alive. There is an argument that getting the grades of bold routes literally incorrect is irresponsible, but there's nothing wrong with them being hard for the grade.

When I'm on a bold route, it is purely my judgement that is being tested: can I make those moves without protection, or am I simply not good enough? It would be foolish to rely on the grade: "it's 5b, so that must be a jug, I'll pop for it". Oh. Ouch.

And for protected routes, there's simply nothing wrong with sandbags, they are helpful at making us better climbers.

Every new place I go to I find that the grades are different to other places. I personally find Cornish granite nearly impossible, and have to drop my grade there - that's life. Same, perhaps, with the moorland grit.

Getting your arse kicked teaches you not to invest so much in the grade, nor to rely so heavily on the opinions and experiences of others. And for the ego, once you can get up the hard routes at any given grade, the cruises at the grade above will come thick and fast.

Sounds like I'm on the "man-up" side of this debate then, eh.
GrahamD - on 30 May 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Its true - for average grades to work for every 'easy for the grade' there must be a 'hard for the grade'. I think people tend to view what the grade is about by the ones they find easy rather than the ones they find hard.
Simon Caldwell - on 30 May 2012
In reply to GrahamD:
True, but many of the Moorland Peak routes don't feel hard for the grade so much as hard for the grade above :-)
Hephaestus - on 30 May 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to astley007)
>
> Getting your arse kicked teaches you not to invest so much in the grade, nor to rely so heavily on the opinions and experiences of others.
>

Bravo, Jon! *applause*

Getting my arse kicked is one of the main reasons to go climbing - keep the ego in check, keep your motivation alive, keep the experience real. I don't think I would climb if the outcome of each and every route was known to me before hand.

Undergrading is not dangerous or irresponsible, a climber who can't make their own decisions about risk and ability is.

Simon Caldwell - on 30 May 2012
In reply to Hephaestus:
> Undergrading is not dangerous

It is if the route is poorly protected
Furanco C - on 30 May 2012
In reply to Hephaestus: Having no grade isn't dangerous, but having the wrong grade certainly is.

Hephaestus - on 30 May 2012
In reply to Toreador: Iíve always viewed climbing as my own responsibility Ė if a climb is outside my capabilities, then itís up to me to decide what to do. What Iím saying is that while a given grade might tempt me to try a route, thatís different to me assuming I will finish it. If at some point I get out of my depth, then one of the climbing skills is recognising this and manufacturing a means of escape.

BTW, Iím not advocating sandbagging here, Iím recognising that there are numerous reasons why a given route might feel hard to me: conditions; familiarity with the rock type; familiarity with grading in an area, or a given crag; variability of my technical skills (i.e. Iím better at walls than overhangs, better crimping than open handing pockets, etc).
GrahamD - on 30 May 2012
In reply to Juran CoC:

My objection to Yorkhire P grades in a nutshell
Furanco C - on 30 May 2012
In reply to Hephaestus:

What are you on about? If you get 'out of your depth' on a route like the indian face then you're dead. If the Indian face gets E5 in the guide, it's not unacceptable for an E5 leader to get on it. You can't always escape. If you're advocating not having grades for any routes then fair enough, but the overwhelming majority of climbers would disagree with you.

You can't argue that having a bold E5 masquerading as an E2/3/4 isn't dangerous. Nor can you argue that people don't put some degree of trust in guidebook writers.
Hephaestus - on 30 May 2012
In reply to Juran CoC:
> Having no grade isn't dangerous, but having the wrong grade certainly is.

But ďhaving the wrong gradeĒ is entirely subjective. The OPís question was about grading in general on the Moorland Grit, and then for Running Hill Pits particularly. Heíd come to the conclusion that the grading for these parts was pretty hard. Same would be said for routes in the County, or at Almscliffe and Curbar for example, but the reasons for these variations in grade is probably historically based.

Same goes internationally: care to compare route grades between El Chorro and the Verdon?
Hephaestus - on 30 May 2012
In reply to Juran CoC:
> (In reply to Hephaestus)
>
> What are you on about? If you get 'out of your depth' on a route like the indian face then you're dead.

WRONG: Anecdotally, I know that there have been at least 2 climbers who got out of their depth on Indian Face. Neither of them died. They called for top-ropes or traversed onto different routes.

And they got out of their depth with the grade correctly quoted in the guide. It was just that they had misjudged their abilities, or the routes difficulties.
In reply to Hephaestus:
>
>
> Undergrading is not dangerous or irresponsible, a climber who can't make their own decisions about risk and ability is.

That strikes me as a mildly ridiculous statement!


Chris
Hephaestus - on 30 May 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I guess it would be if we were talking about an individual who goes about maliciously undergrading routes, but this thread appears to be about geographical variations from the OP.

Does anyone have examples of individuals who go about maliciously undergrading routes?
Richard Alderton - on 31 May 2012
In reply to Offwidth:

> That'll be the day! If nothing else there isn't enough parking for most crags to get that busy. On Monday pm we didnt see another climber on Kinder SE and only ten folk on Dovestones on a perfect day for that crag on Thursday pm.... on that subject I wonder if the couple of lads who did Answer Crack as we left are reading and enjoyed it.

It was a glorious evening The only disappointment was that the ice-cream van had disappeared by the time we made it down to the dam.

We weren't the two on Answer Crack, but the three chatting to you under Matchstick Crack, I think.

I must get my hands on a copy of the new guide. My old Chew guide is older than several of my climbing partners.
Offwidth - on 31 May 2012
In reply to Richard Alderton:

I was with my old friendly climbing partner Chris. Were you were one of the guide group?...good to meet you anyway, wish I knew at the time it was you!
Offwidth - on 31 May 2012
In reply to Toreador:

Who thinks that leaving poorly protected sandbags was desirable? I can't think of anyone on the team. Yet Rockfax and the BMC guide still contain some of these.

Why does it happen? Conditions change a lot up there...a newly cleaned route can feel fine when it's dirty it can feel terrifying. The route checker can be operating at many grades above the grade in question and often solo so distictions can be missed. Re-checks on the obscure bits of the moors will be less common than on Stanage as the worse crags may only be in for a few weeks a year (if that).

What can we do about it? Well for starters at low grade you can email me or Moff as we collect, check and publish the results in our view on Offwidth. Secondly you can stop pissing into the wind (ie stop moaning about grades and make it clear problems are inevitable in such places and everyone working in concert is the best way to solve things).
Richard Alderton - on 31 May 2012
> I was with my old friendly climbing partner Chris. Were you were one of the guide group?...good to meet you anyway, wish I knew at the time it was you!

Not a guided group, but the other two are outdoor instructors.

> Conditions change a lot up there...a newly cleaned route can feel fine when it's dirty it can feel terrifying.

Out of interest, what does the new guide have to say about Bertie's Bugbear at Wimberry? I can't imagine it ever being clean. I think it's the only Severe I've had to aid. Bizarrely, the UKC database gives it overwhelmingly three stars. Either I'm lacking in the spirit of adventure, or there's a joke I'm not being let into...

> The route checker can be operating at many grades above the grade in question and often solo so distictions can be missed.

I think that's absolutely key. Other than somebody with exceptional insight, experience and time available, it's pretty much impossible to grade something that is more than a couple of grades away from your usual level. I doubt I could tell a Diff from a Hard Diff any more than I could tell an E3 from an E4. Pointless even to try?
Lankyman - on 31 May 2012
In reply to Richard Alderton:
> Bizarrely, the UKC database gives it overwhelmingly three stars. Either I'm lacking in the spirit of adventure, or there's a joke I'm not being let into...
>
This is what I thought about Freddie's Finale just the other day. I think I'm just lacking in offwidth techniques (plus a fair bit of skin off the back of my right hand) - worth every star!
Offwidth - on 31 May 2012
In reply to Richard Alderton:

Its an amazing line and when its dry it's reputably brilliant. I climbed it when damp and didn't aid it but it was more like a very odd VS 5a** experience ;-)
Michael Hood - on 31 May 2012
In reply to Richard Alderton: I've done BB when it's been pretty dry - or dry enough anyway. Climbing up the moss is quite bizarre but it's reasonable at S 4a - certainly easier than Route 1 which I did next.

I suspect it's one of those routes that becomes way harder as soon as it gets wet.
Michael Hood - on 31 May 2012
In reply to Offwidth: It is brilliant but bizarre.
Hardonicus - on 31 May 2012
In reply to Michael Hood: The point with Berties's Bugbear is that although it appears carpeted in green, the little (chipped?) footholds are invariable clean.
craig h - on 31 May 2012
In reply to Hardonicus:
> The point with Berties's Bugbear is that although it appears carpeted in green, the little (chipped?) footholds are invariable clean.

That's the joy of many of the moorland classics, they may look green from below; but over the years there has been enough traffic to keep the useful holds clean :-)
grubes - on 01 Jun 2012
In reply to Richard Alderton:

> Out of interest, what does the new guide have to say about Bertie's Bugbear at Wimberry? I can't imagine it ever being clean. I think it's the only Severe I've had to aid. Bizarrely, the UKC database gives it overwhelmingly three stars. Either I'm lacking in the spirit of adventure, or there's a joke I'm not being let into...

I was discussing this with some mates last week. Our conclusion was it was an inside joke on in the 1988 guide to trick your mates to climb some shitty green mossy corner with weird moves. Then the grade and the stars stuck as time went on.
When I lead it I thought the route was a bag of shit however I did make my mate climb it on his first visit there to pass on the bull shit three star route. It was 3stars to laugh at my mate climbing it but completely wank to climb it.
Furanco C - on 01 Jun 2012
In reply to grubes:

The spirit of sandbagging in a nutshell. What a load of boring crap.

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