UKC

So, my mate and I recently bought a rope and some hardware and made the move outside to top rope with advice from Libby Peter's excellent book. So far we have had a couple of successful sessions at local single pitch crags. While we both feel we need a fair bit more time on real rock before we start leading trad (and I think I'd get some instruction for this), we were thinking that as a stepping stone we could try pitching some grade 2/3/3(S) scrambles.

So, before I cause an uproar, I realise that while they might not be technically as difficult as a VDiff at the local crag, they are in a more serious mountain environment with potential for long falls if it all goes belly up etc. However, if we choose our routes right, take it slowly and are prepared to back off if need be, I feel it is within our capabilities to protect between anchors with slings and maybe a few nuts. As such, you can probably expect to see me on here at some point looking for some scrambles anywhere between the Trossachs and the Grey Corries with short pitches between soloing sections and fairly minimal exposure.

In the meantime, I need to get my wallet out and buy some extra gear, which is where I need advice. Besides harness, helmet and so on, here is all the hardware I own in the world.

60m x 10.2 mm Edelrid Boa rope
BD ATC
2x Clog HMS krabs
4x DMM Aero screwgates
2x 60cm, 2x 120cm, 1x 240cm DMM nylon slings (heavy duty!)
2x prussik loops

First of all, the rope; it weighs a ton and from what I've read on here, 30m x 9mm single should cover everything from grade 2 with direct belays to sections of VDiff, so I'll try and pick up something cheap or buy off the reel.

Now the trickier parts. I realise that a lot of people use slings as sling draws/extenders. However, with my current kit, if I use three or four slings protecting a pitch or used as extenders, that doesn't leave me with a lot of options when building anchors. So, if I buy more slings, I have to buy more krabs to turn them into draws. Given that eventually we're going to get into leading trad, is it more cost effective and simpler to pick up a set of, say, four or five 15cm quickdraws and leave the slings for protection and anchor building? Or should I have more slings than what I've got anyway?

Finally, I suppose it depends on the route but, from searching on here, I've seen scrambling racks range from a sling and an HMS, to nuts in every size and three or four hexes. I'd guess something in the middle was about right? Again, given that we'd eventually get into leading trad, is more cost effective to take the hit and buy a full set of nuts package, or could we scrounge around and pick up deals on 3 or 4 individual nuts? If it's the later, what sizes are best for scrambling? I've heard the small sizes are not so useful, but I have no frame of reference having never used them. Also, would a hex or two be useful, or overkill?

Sorry for the long post for what is I imagine to most a pretty straightforward question, but I don't have huge amounts of spare cash at the moment and would like to make the most cost effective purchases and avoid buying stuff I don't have to. Cheers.

In reply to Taurig:

If you are thinking of moving into trad climbing, then definitely buy a full set of nuts and a range of hexes (personally I'd get Torque nuts if I was buying now as they cover a wide range in 4 units: Rockcentrics are great, but I mostly only use sizes 5-8). Quickdraws are usually cheaper in packs, and you can use the krabs on them for slings, or simply use the quickdraws. It's hard to pick a rack for scrambling as it's all so dependent on your ability an comfort zone. If I really intended to use a rack, I'd probably take 5 nuts and a couple of hexes, plus a bunch of slings and a nut key.

Having said all that, I often find that scrambles are fairly hard to protect. I would be sorely tempted to suggest that you find a Diff route with a good reputation for not being too scary and do that. Placing the gear and building belays uses exactly the same techniques as you sound like you plan to in scrambling, and you will actually be using all your gear rather than carrying it most of the time. Unfortunately I don't know Scotland well enough to recommend routes, but I know of a few further south. Diffs are basically just difficult scrambles anyway. With common sense, trad climbing is not actually very hard to do or particularly dangerous.

In reply to Taurig:

As a novice trad climber myself, Monk's advice certainly fits with my own learning experience.

Whilst I can understand the logic in having a intermediate step before moving onto trad "proper", as Monk pointed out, there's not much difference between a scramble and a Diff climb.

I'd actually put a scramble where protection is needed into a riskier category and less likely to aid improvement - if you turn up at Polldubh for example, you can look at your guidebook, pick something you can be pretty sure is within you ability, be confident it is sufficiently protected, spend your time focussing on movement, placing gear and building belays. Plus, if you do this at the weekend at a popular crag like Polldubh, there are generally a few people on hand to offer advice or assistance if you're struggling. Above all, you get more trad mileage under your belt.

The same isn't necessarily true for scrambling - you could be off on the hill with no real guidance as to route, gear placement or general difficulties/risk. There might not be anyone around to offer a bit of help, you could be further away from assistance if you need it. Plus, you could end up simply soloing more because there isn't much need for protection or there aren't too many placements available.

I found the easiest and safest way to learn was to pick an easy, well protected multi pitch climb, take a load of gear and just practice. Something like The Gutter at Polldubh is fantastic for getting in good mileage of placing gear on pretty safe climbing (but still actually climbing). You'll probably get far more opportunity at placing gear and building belays on a 2 pitch diff climb at a crag than you might on a lengthy scramble.

In reply to professionalwreckhead:

i'd also echo the previous replies. harder scrambles require a greater range of rope management skills than easier climbs (moving together on rope, direct belays, switching smoothly between pitching/moving together), and more judgement as to what technique to use at any given point. get the skills of pitched climbing well developed, then add the moving together stuff; that way, you can always fall back on pitching sections if you are uncomfortable, which is safe, albeit very slow.

stuff like giants crawl or little chamonix in the lakes would be ideal for this, i'd have thought,

cheers
gregor

In reply to Taurig: Scrambling and long easy mountain routes are great, but I'd echo the very sensible advice already given above. Scrambles can be a lot more serious than climbs on wee crags that may be much harder on paper; there's often harder route finding, possible difficulties of escape, wet and loose rock, greenery, remoteness from help if things go wrong, mountain weather etc etc. You're much safer learning the ropes on Mods/Diffs/VDiffs on short accessible well-travelled valley crags before applying those skills to a mountain setting.

Or if you're determined to get out in the proper hills then start with easy scrambles, stuff you don't need a rope on - grade 1 ground. That'll help you get used to moving on easy rock in potentially quite serious positions, plus you'll have some brilliant days out.

All that said it's very hard to give advice without knowing someone's experience. You've obviously not done any climbing, but how about hillwalking? Hillwalking experience (being able to navigate for instance) is just as relevant to scrambling as are climbing skills.

Thanks for the replies so far, appreciated. I suppose the idea of pitched scrambling attracted me for two main reasons, 1) personally I can see the trajectory of my climbing career going more along the lines of bigger, multi-pitch mountain days, ridge traverses on technically easier climbing rather than pushing into the E grades on roadside crags and 2) learning the rope management, gear placement etc. on a scramble which should technically be comfortably within your range and hence less likely to result in a fall had a certain logic to it.

However, I can see the logic in people's thoughts above that the mountain environment is a lot more serious and it does make sense to go from single pitch lead > short multipitch > mountain multipitch. From that perspective it does look like I'm trying to run before I can walk. I think what I'll suggest to my mate is we get a set of nuts, some quickdraws and maybe a hex or three and lead some single pitch Diffs before we consider heading to the harder scrambles. Dan, I'm not the most experienced hillwalker by a long shot, but I have done an OK amount both winter and summer, and my nav hasn't let me down yet!

What I find surprising is the comments about protection being diifficult to find on scrambles, but as I've never protected a scramble I'm willing to accept this is the case.

In reply to Taurig:

I certainly found that my scrambling got a lot more confident after I had been climbing for a bit, even at a fairly modest level.

It's worth having something in the bag as even supposedly easy scrambles can spring surprises. Going off route, changes to a route due to rockfalls etc. can easily make you glad of a bit of harder cragging experience.

In reply to Taurig:

That was what originally interested me, too (and still does to a large extent), but it seemed prudent to get the gear placement and ropework quick, safe and precise on short accessible routes before having to rely on it on a long mountain scramble, even if the mountain route is technically easier.

In reply to Taurig:


I think the key difference is whether you are placing good gear, or just sticking a nut into a decent bit of rock at what feels like a sensible distance since your last placement.

On a Diff route the placements are often quite obvious, come when you need them (or sooner), don't require crafty rope work and don't need a huge amount of thinking about the overall environment to get right - therefore meaning you should be well protected in the event of a fall.

Whereas on a scramble you may find yourself moving around on the pitch more, which will require a different degree of rope skills and adds another dimension to making good placements, you'll have to think more about your general situation (not a bad thing, but might be a bit much when starting out) and there's a bit more of a risk that you've got it wrong ( I.e there are some unintended consequences if you fall, even when the gear holds, like taking a swing into something).

Easy crags are often nice and straight, so you can focus primarily on getting the seating of the gear correct, knowing that if you do have a fall, provided your belayer is holding the other ed of the rope and you seated the gear well, there isn't as much too go wrong.

I've often found the (often quite tricky) rope skills involved in protecting a scramble can place me at greater harm than a well executed solo, where all I have to worry about is footwork and route finding.

In reply to Taurig:

>> What I find surprising is the comments about protection being diifficult to find on scrambles, but as I've never protected a scramble I'm willing to accept this is the case.

not necessarily difficult to protect (though i remember the section of crowberry ridge approaching crowberry tower being a bit hairy...), but harder to arrange reliable protection

you are likely to be moving together on a length of rope, placing runners every so often. place too many, and you will take all day, and the next... place too few, and you may only have one peice, or none at all, so you are essentially soloing with a rope and its one off, both off. also the angle is often lower, risking lifting pieces of gear out, and you could effectively have 2 people falling on the same piece if the leader pulls the second off when falling- so fall factors difficult to calculate

also there is more likely to be suspect rock and so dodgy placements on many scrambles

all in all, there is much more to think about on a scramble than on a nice straightforward multipitch diff, i'd reckon,

cheers
gregor

In reply to Taurig: I really like your outlook There is nothing better than being able to climb classic routes like Tower Ridge efficiently and quickly using the full array of climbing and mountaineering skills. A lot of climbers I know, really struggle doing anything other than basic pitched climbing with standard rock climbing belays.

Lots of good advice, but I would make a couple of comments/suggestions.

First, a quick bit of sage advice: If the weather is at all dodgy, do not go scrambling, go walking or proper climbing. You have infinitely more chance of coming away unscathed if you fall-off a wet VDiff than if you have a slip on a wet Grade 2 scramble. Scrambling should be viewed as very much a dry weather activity.

Second, don't overly worry about slings for belays - you've got the rope for that.

Third, 95% of UK climbers and mountaineers carry far too much kit.
- Partly this is due to the marketing efforts of the gear manufacturers who persuade you to buy 'full sets' of wires or hexes that you don't really need. You can easily get away with wires in sizes 3-9 and 2 medium hexes (plus possibly a large hex or a size 3 cam) for the vast majority of both scrambling and easy climbing.
- The same applies with quickdraws. The relative demise of 'nuts on cord' and small hexes combined with the increase in sport climbing (and lighter gear) which has led to an explosion in the number of quickdraws climbers carry. A really basic rack in the 1980's only had 2 'extensions' where as many climbers now think 6 is on the low side and often recommend 8.
- Finally, people carry far too many screwgates. This a legacy of the climbing community failing to differentiate between how climbing instructors are taught to build belays when taking school kids climbing where the belay can be in use and out of sight of the instructor for a whole day and what is an appropriate belay when mountaineering.
In all these areas, people generally buy a fairly large amount of gear so get into the mindset that they actually need it all, which is rarely the case.

By all means go out and buy a full set of nuts on wire, a set of hexes and a set of quickdraws (it is eminently sensible and far cheaper to do it that way) but avoid falling into the trap of thinking you need to always carry everything.

Fourth. Seriously consider hiring a Mountaineering Instructor or better yet, a Mountain Guide for a day or two of scrambling/mountaineering training. When I've done some training with Guides I have learnt a phenomenal amount. It is very worthwhile and you will pick up things far, far quicker than you will just by reading about it and trial and error.

Finally, whatever you do, have fun.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

That does not sound like any of the scrambling I have ever done in the UK. IIRC I've never moved together with gear on a UK scramble in nearly 20 years and I don't know anyone else including dozens of MIA/MICs and Guides who advocate or practice that.


However, that I do agree with. That fact you can have such an utterly different concept of how you would approach a scramble, just demonstrates it.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

Finding this discussion interesting as I have goine down exactly the path described here i.e. scrambling > easy trad > aiming for longer mountain routes


Can you elaborate on this - I assume you are suggesting that snapgates can be used instead in many situations? What situations specifically? I normally use screwgates to close slings that are through threads, I guess a snapgate would do there, but I'd be reluctant to use a snap gate to clove hitch rope loops into my harness. I'm not disputing your statement, just looking to learn...

In reply to Oujmik:
I think that some of the things the op is referring to are things like:
If you have more than one point making up a belay (e.g. 2 nuts) which are in view, not going to be loaded in a manner that they touch a piece of rock that will open the gate or otherwise compromise them and that you are attached to by snug ropes (if rope is tight it shouldn't be able to climb up out of the base of the krab and open the gate) it is fine to attach to a single snap gate in each piece of gear.
Whilst I agree that when tying back to myself with a clove hitch I also prefer to use a screwgate it is possible to learn to tie back to your rope loop with a figure of 8 on the bight or a few half hitches.
As he says the practise of using screw gates at even point has probably filtered down from the instructional world where belays are often rigged for bottom ropes where those using them are out of sight and using them repeatedly over a long period of time.

In reply to Taurig: Pretty much in the same boat as you here. I can see my climbing life heading towards big scrambles and traverses rather than climbing really hard rock routes !

I'm also in the stage of putting a rack together and having went on an Alpine Mountaineering course at the weekend there, I have a bit of an insight into what I need to add to my rack that will take me up some graded scrambles but then do me good when I finally go over to the alps next year ! I have 4 screwgates, 4 240cm slings, three quickdraws, two torque nuts and another shorter sling (can't member what length it is) so I know I need to add a set of nuts to that, a bunch of crabs and maybe a cam or 2.

My insturctor at the weekend, Matt Stygal, said that the best way to get prepared with big mountain rope work and skills was to get in as much trad climbing as possible and then put it into practice up high. Try getting up early, doing a Diff or VDiff climb at a crag and then head to the nearest grade 2 or 3 scramble and see how they both compare.

In reply to Oujmik:

You can always replace a screwgate with two opposing snapgates by butchering any quickdraws you've got left over. On the other hand, if I'm equalising two nuts with a sling (and the gates don't touch the rock, and I'm going to be continuously weighting the belay and I'm sitting within sight of the placement) then I tend to use one snapgate on each, and only use a single HMS through my belay loop/tie-in loops for attaching clove hitches to.

If you run out of quickdraws at the top of a route, you can always use racking snapgates to build the belay.

Disclaimer: This is learnt from friends + personal experience, so may not be gospel truth.

In reply to Taurig: Some interesting comments. Briefly scrambles tend to be lengthy compared with trad climbs (a bit of a generalisation) and may not have obvious lines or protection (tho' many do). Rock routes tend to be harder (or they would be scrambles) and those suggesting you go do a V Diff lead you somewhat astray. You might find it easy (but not Little Chamonix which needs a cool head) but that is your call and does need the ability to manage the rope, belay safely and protect both leader and second.

Get the local advice and have a look - have fun!

In reply to Taurig:

I agree strongly with the original comment. It really often is hard to find placements on scrambles. I don't know why - perhaps because scrambles follow lines on very compact rock, where the only features are incut steps or large jugs - and it's easy not to notice if you normally solo them anyway.

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Yeah, from the comments like the above, I leaning more and more towards learning to lead on single pitch Mods and Diffs, really because that comment doesn't make much sense to me so I assume there is something going over my head which would become worryingly apparent half way up a big face!

In reply to Taurig: If you buy rope from the reel make sure that you get a dynamic and not a static version. Much better to buy a pre packaged rope of the length and diameter to suit your needs and then you are sure. I'd go with something like a 50m joker or equivalent if looking for something light.

In reply to Taurig:

hi again, no i didnt really explain myself very well, did i...!

what i'm trying to get it is that on a pitched climb, if you choose the right one, it will follow a straightforward line, with the placement nicely lined up one above another. if you fall, you will fall from directly above the gear, and that is more or less above the belayer. the forces involved and the consequences of the fall should fairly easy to predict

on a scramble, the actual placement may be easy to find- a nice sling over a spike, or a hex in a crack; but you may be following a weaving line, the rock may require more inspection for its soundness, and you may both be moving at once, and not directly above one another. so the piece of gear may be soundly placed, but the consequences of the fall on the system might be harder to predict. so it takes more experience to judge how much to trust a bit of gear, and when you really don't want to test the system

i started out on scrambles, often in the rain, which was a good way to terrify myself and faff about badly. fortunately, as no one else was stupid enough to be on the routes in those conditions, no one saw me do it, so sparing me the embarrassment of having an audience to watch my ineptitude...!

having done this, i can say learning the ropework on easy climbs is a much better plan, then take that experience onto scrambles. as others have said, a guide for a day or two is a good idea and money well spent,

cheers

gregor

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

you are likely to be moving together on a length of rope, placing runners every so often.


that's interesting- maybe i've not described it clearly. i'm talking about having around 10-12m rope between the climbers, placing gear while both moving, trying to have at least 2 pieces of gear in at all times. this would be on harder scrambles, and alternates with taking direct belays to overcome short steep steps, or even switching to pitching if needed.

i've used it on a number of grade 3 scramble and easy winter climbs, and found it can be only a little slower than soloing, with at least some sense of a second chance in the event of a slip.

is this not something that would be used by others? if not, how would you protect harder scrambles if you are using a rope?

keen to learn if there are other techniques out there, or to stop doing ones that are a bad idea...

cheers
gregor

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: Thats the techniques I was shown at the weekend and they were pretty effective i'd say, and that was by someone who held an MIC.

Its a hell of a lot faster than pitching everything and a lot more safer than soloing, although it takes practice to get it right and trust between partners to travel roped up on moderate terrain.

In reply to Taurig: As well as being longer than routes, scrambles tend to be less continuous. This is one of the things which distinguishes them - the moves may be technically as hard as on a climb, but on a scramble they are likely to separated by much easier sections, perhaps even sections of walking. If you're going to pitch them, and on a 30m rope at that, it will take ages. It doesn't strike me as being a good way to develop either rock climbing or scrambling skills.

The rope skills for scrambling are more akin to alpinism than cragging. If you want to build up your climbing skills and ropework then imo you'd do better on easy graded climbs.

For roped scrambling you should be thinking of moving together and perhaps placing a few pieces of gear as you go. It helps to have the basic rock-climbing grounding so that you can select and place gear quickly, and for when you need to pitch a tricky section. However the skills, whilst related, are different. Having said that, I very seldom use a rope on a scramble (and I'm no great shakes as a rock climber).

No more scotch eggs: Thanks, I think I know what you're saying now, I can see how the wandering nature of scrambles could make rope management an issue. On a run of the mill Diff I imagine it's a lot easier to estimate what direction your protection is going to be pulled in etc.

Ron: Thanks for linking to your photo, very helpful. I'm assuming that if I were to change tack and start on easy single pitch, that kind of rack would also be a good starting point, perhaps with three or four quickdraws thrown in? Maybe double up on some of the medium sized nuts? I guess this is a try it and see thing though.