UKC

Im just starting to get the hang of climbing outside, ie meaning building belays and placing protection. Thus far myself and partner having being swapping leads on multi pitch Diff's.
What im not confident with are the techniques used for belays where the Leader continues to lead, ie the second arrives at the belay secures into the belay then leader free's himself & lead climbs.

Could you link me to some good youtubes or web pages that demonstrate these techniques. (i have looked myself but not found anything of substance)

cheers

In reply to mikehike:

Can't get any videos for you right now, as I'm on my phone.

Basically, if you make the belay using slings, so the all your equalised pieces come to one attachment point, you can just clip in and out if that.

It should roughly go: leader arrives at stance, builds belay not using rope, clips into single attachment point, brings up second stacking rope neatly, second clips in to attachment point (jiggery pokery may be needed ie clipping in with another sling until you leader is unclipped), while both are still attached to belay flip rope stack so leader end feeds off the top, leader is put on belay, leader unclips from belay, sets off.

A 240cm sling is useful for block leading like this.

This can be done with the rope forming the belay, but much easier just to equalise everything with a big sling.

Hope that makes sense...I'm not sure that it does!

In reply to mikehike:

Two simple solutions, one I like, one I'm not a big fan of but it's safe and popular.

Sling solution: Place 2 good bits of gear, clip a sling through both, pull all strands of the sling toward you and tie an overhand on all 4 to create isolated loops going to each piece and a pair of clip-in loops. Put a couple of locking krabs on the clip-in loops and clip into one of those krabs. When your partner arrives they clip the other, put you on belay and away you go. Climb slow enough and the ropes will sort themselves without any special effort.

Rope solution: As before, two good bits of gear but with 2 krabs on each. Clove hitch each rope (assuming half ropes used) to a belay piece (or build your rope-equalised belay however you're comfortable). When your partner arrives the do the same on the other krabs, put you on belay then you free yourself from the belay and away you go.

Extending the systems to handle 3+ belay pieces is simple enough though you need a long sling. You can also make a hybrid of the two systems, an equalised pair of pieces on a sling plus the rope off to a third piece (nice and elegant).

jk

In reply to mikehike: This is a situation where a cordlette comes into its own.

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/making_a_cordlette_and_making...

I would disagree with jkarran however on one point. It is well worth the time spend pulling the ropes through and tales very littel time and effort.

Did I by any chance spend a week in Morocco with you several years ago?

Al

In reply to jkarran:
Climb slow enough and the ropes will sort themselves without any special effort.

I also find this is a recipe for an horrendous tangle. Re-stack the ropes - it is very quick to do.

In reply to mikehike:
If you're happy with single pitch anchors then there's not much you need to learn technically, the difference comes in just spending a few minutes thinking about organisation and stance management which is something that you can't really pick up from a video/instruction book.

A couple of points to bear in mind:

1) Firstly, when you get to the stance, make sure you know where the next pitch goes (this applies as much to swinging leads as well I guess) that way you can plan accordingly.

2) Think about where the second is going to stand (so you can belay them to that side), where the dead rope will go and where the best position will be for them to belay you on the next pitch.

3) When they arrive and clip in, make sure they clip in underneath your crabs and always keep your end of the rope on top of theirs.

4) Don't turn around! If you get to a big stance it's really easy to turn around without noticing and you end up with twists in the rope, try and treat the ropes as being parallel, red on left blue on right for e.g.

5) Lapping the ropes over something (feet, tie in point, sling, big carabiner) makes things a lot easier imo, although if there's a big stance there's no need.

6) I personally don't see the point in a "cow's tail" for this kind of thing, if you've got a single attachment point (i.e. belay built from slings) then it's a lot better for the second to clip in with a clove hitch on the rope - more shock absorbtion, easily adjustable and less clutter. Obviously if you're connecting to all the anchors with the rope then you wouldn't be using one anyway.

Ben

P.S. I'm probably not the best person to be giving advice as I still find new, inventive ways to create clusterf**ks on multipitch routes.

In reply to MG:

Agreed. Nothing worse that being out of sight of your belayer on a windy day and can't work out why they keep refusing to pay out rope. Considerable swearing often ensues.

It's also worth having a quick think before you build the belay about where your rope is going, where the second is going to stand etc. Not as big a deal on wide ledges, but if you are at a cramped and slightly precarious belay then a bit of forward planning can save a lot of faffing about when your second arrives.

In reply to mikehike: The other posters have just about covered most stuff. Just a couple of minor tips.

High anchors. Always try and find the highest possible anchors at each stance - shoulder level or above. It makes everything far, far easier, especially when block leading.

If you want to improve speed and efficiency, consider having the second rack the gear they remove on a bandoleer or one improvised from a suitable length loop of cord/tape. That way they can just hand the whole lot in one go to the leader. They can then back-stack the rope(s) whilst the leader is re-racking.

In reply to thread:

I've never once that I can recall had a problem with just re-using jumbled rope and I almost never re-stack them. Weird, I must just be lucky I guess.

jk

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:


..and this helps to help stop the anchors lifting out if the leader falls

In reply to cuppatea: How often do any of you put in a directional anchor on multipitch belays? i.e. to prevent the belayer flying up above the anchors and lifting them out if the leader falls. That's my biggest concern on multipitch belays, but also the one I find hardest to solve! It's not always easy to place gear below you! Is it necessary?

In reply to NottsRich:


An additional low one to resist an upward pull: Almost never.

I tend to go for kit/placements that will withstand a wide range of pull directions but I don't honestly give it much (any?) thought. You've made me wonder, I'd not be surprised if some of my belays would fall apart in that scenario though I suspect the majority would be ok. I'm pretty wary of kit that has to be loaded carefully one way only to stay put.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

Thus providing your first runner which is independent of your seconder's belay anchors just un-do the clove hitch on the way past, like it!

In reply to andic:
Right all. Ive just printed the above off, am gonna head into the garage tonight and build some belays. Cheers.

mh

In reply to mikehike:

Cue A-Team music...

In reply to Dave 88:
Yep Dave that makes sense.
I built a belay using 240cm sling and a 120cm sling, brought together/equalised with a big over hand, thus creating loop(a). I secured to this loop (a) using an HMS which was also passed through my tie in rope loop (b) at the harness (not the harnesses own webbing belay loop). The second comes up and either clips into loop (a) with a cows tail/HMS or HMS directly into loop(a).

Time for a cuppa Tea and a Snickers

In reply to jkarran:

Sling solution as Daves above seems straightforward, using the two locking crabs provides an obvious clip in point for the second which I like.

Rope solution, at the moment we are using just the one rope.
This system uses double the amount of crabs though.

Question, when the placed gear is nuts on wire, does one use opposing QD's and clove hitch to them?

In reply to Gaston Rubberpants: Never been to Morocco if your pointing at me.

In reply to Sharp:
Thanks Ben,
6) Use clove hitch rather than cows tail. Good Point
plus ive learnt a new word clusterf**ks

In reply to professionalwreckhead:
Yes ive just checked out stacking rope through a shortened 120cm sling, difficult at first but got the hang of it now.

cheers

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Cheers for the Bandoleer gear collecting tip, will certainly be using that next trip.

In reply to Dave 88:
A Team music fades to the distance as another victory for the UKC massive.

Thanks for the advice

mh

In reply to mikehike: You can clip to the same krab but it only works if the leader has tied in with a loop of rope taken back to him, rather than by clove-hitching to the krab.

You first have to push the leader's rope loop up past the gate (but still clipped in) so when the second ties in his rope then goes underneath. When the leader comes to unclip the ropes his will then be on top. Easier to do than to describe.

The most important thing on a confined belay is always to think first before unclipping anything - it's easy to get confused when everything is on top of everything else. It pays to be efficient and to have a system (but one which is flexible enough to adapt to the situation).

In reply to mikehike:

I love it when plan comes together!

I personally don't think it matters. It just means you have less quick draws for the next pitch if anything! I'd be happy using one and I'd only use two if there was obviously going to be a chance of a gate being opened (quick draw pressing against rock) but I think in general, two opposing draws is just a waste of time.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

seconded, I guess that your 240 cm sling is racked on a screwgate, use this to attach to one of your nuts on a wire (if applicable the best one or the one where the gate is most likely to be pressed open), for the other anchor just use whatever you have got handy, if you have got another 2 SGs use them for the other anchor and your attachment of not, save your last SG for yourself!!

IMO SGs are for critical links in the chain ie where there is no mutually redundant backup, in a multiple anchor system I dont think they are essential except to connect yourself to the belay

In reply to andic:

Thank you for the QD SG extra advice

In reply to mikehike: I wouldn't bother using a QD to attach to the belay at all, it's a waste of two crabs when one would do. Carry a couple of extra wiregates and two screwgates each and you'll have plenty - I'd make them HMS screwgates as well as they aren't much heavier and have more uses.
I usually end up with one screwgate on my strongest piece and one to connect myself to the belay, then a wire on everything else. It's easy to weigh yourself down with them unecessarily (for example having a screwgate on every sling). Obviously it's a personal choice how many to take though.

A couple of things to keep you flexible if you feel the need of extra security and you're out of screwgates.
If you're using a wiregate on a belay anchor then make sure it's always weighted and if possible clove hitch directly to the crab - a clove hitch round a constantly weighted wire gate is pretty bomber imo.
If you're really not happy at a stance or you've dropped your screwgates then you can use two wire gates in opposition - i.e. both clipped to the anchor and the rope but each gate facing the other direction.
It's worth knowing how to tie into the anchor without a screwgate, i.e. bringing the rope back from an out of reach anchor and tying a big figure 8 on the bight around your tie in loop.
If you've got all those tricks up your sleeve then I think you can feel pretty confident without weighing yourself down with screwgates for everypitch.

You mentioned anchors for an upwards pull, I remember asking that when I was starting out. Thinking about it at home it makes sense but once your out you'll see it's not really necessary. Unless you're incredibly small and the leader is huge and takes a massive winger you're not going to be lifted up enough to disturb the belay. Even then you'd be unlucky if any anchors popped out and even if you were hugely unlucky and they all popped then there would still be gear between you so you wouldn't end up on the ground.

Ben

In reply to Sharp: I forgot to mention I usually have a screwgate with my prusik's on as well, so 4 in total I guess, including for the belay plate.

Ben