In reply to taps323:
It breeds complacency and everytime is asking for an accident.
Is it really?
1) It adds a non-dynamic element to a chain that is not neccessary.
I'll add the word always between not and neccesary.
2) It can easily be fiddled with, with one hand by a student and thus resulting in it opening or turning.
Sorry but that doesn't match my experience. That'll be the third hand they're not using to hold onto the wall then?
Plus whats to say even using a tri-lock carabiner that movement against the wall cant open it.
They are incredibly reliable, more so than a screwgate. Probably why they are preferred in many "Working at Height" situations.
3) It gives novice or less experienced instructors an excuse not to competently learn their knots.
How so? They need to tie a knot to clip into the krab. Admittedly they are not using a re-threaded Fig. 8, or a bowline. Any CWA/SPA should be competent in tying knots to pass assessment, surely?
4) A half competent instructor can tie a student in, within 5-10 seconds and therefore the speed element of a carabiner is a defunct argument.
I don't think so, It is twice as quick to clip/unclip. Particularly if you end up with the totally inexperienced participant attempting to thread a harness. (They may not want you fiddling around by their crotch.) Also as it is far simpler and quicker to clip in than tie in, it reduces the room for error by getting distracted. Probably the most common cause of tie in error. (IMHO)
As an instructor if you cant tie in then you should not be instructing.
I think I covered that one.
Furthermore are you runnig a production line or are you trying to give someone a good experience, take this 5 seconds and learn the persons name/reassure them/learn their favourite colour.
Perhaps I already know their name/favourite colour and don't want to waste time. Sometimes it's about giving folks an experience and not about teaching them to climb/tie in.
5) The 'ease' of clipping can often result in attaching to the wrong point of the harness. By tieing in you are going through the correct process of 'reforming' the belay/abseil loop (not applied to alpine harness' of course).
If you can't clip in to the correct part of a harness, or ensure the participant has done so, then you shouldn't be instructing.
6) Maybe a seperate argument but the increased frequency of loading the belay loop is going to reduce the life expectancy of harness'.
Really? You are talking rubbish now. Tied in or clipped in, the harness will be subject to the same amount of wear and tear. If you have some magic way of tieing in that places no load on waistbelt and legloops, perhaps you'd care to share. In my experience, centre use harnesses are retired on cosmetic or age grounds before they become unsafe.
But this is just my lonely opinion. Im sure there are some positives to this method but in my opinion they do not outway the lorry load of negatives.
Trying to work out if "lonely opinion" is a typo or not.
(lonely/lowly) I'm leaning towards not.
I have instructed and operated several walls and have a pretty severe hatred of this method.
You seem to have assumed a very forthright position/opinion.
My guess is after 3 years of climbing you've just passed your SPA.
Come back to these opinions after a few years in the game and see if you still feel the same.
;~))
GR